Daniel 12 The end times

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Can someone explain this passage?

I have highlighted in red the parts that I'm struggling with.

To me it clearly says that the wicked will be punished!


Daniel 12
The End Times
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise [a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?"

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?"

9 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."


I do want to believe in universal salvation, and am finding passages that support it, but just as many that go against it, and its not really about what I want, it's about what is true, but i would like to hear opinions on this.

[rosered]

  Hi Marc,
  I always had trouble  with this  too .. 
to be honest with you nothing   I ever read or heard  satisfied   my soul /mind for a answer either   for many a years
  But I prayed to God /Jesus  real hard to help me  understand  His Word
and settle it in my heart once and for all ..
  I can  tell you what I believe now , and it might not satisfy  your  mind/soul   right now , but  be a praying to God  and the Holy Spirit  to  lead you on this one  .. we all here will be a praying for one another

   to me the  two natures we all seem to possess

  the good /godly  part   and the  evil part  , that part of us has to be  either done away with or reconciled to God 
  ''burned out ''even   a '' so to speak '' phrasing 

  I never considered  having two  totally opposite natures within  warring
against each other before  , but I do believe this now 
  we are many things   that is scattered  and broken thoughts and actions  ,   that all has to be sorted out   by the Word of God His standard    and it   will happen  as God wills it to be so ..

I hope this small amount helps some how ,
I do not do a very good job expressing in words my thoughts
  I sure some one can  do a bit better for you mate , on this one ..

   :HeartThrob: rose
 

[jabcat]

   to me the  two natures we all seem to possess

  the good /godly  part   and the  evil part  , that part of us has to be  either done away with or reconciled to God 
  "burned out "even   a " so to speak " phrasing 

  I never considered  having two  totally opposite natures within  warring
against each other before  , but I do believe this now 
  we are many things   that is scattered  and broken thoughts and actions  ,   that all has to be sorted out   by the Word of God His standard    and it   will happen  as God wills it to be so ..

..i do not do a very good job expressing....
 

VERY good job!  :thumbsup:

[aspiring son]

   to me the  two natures we all seem to possess

  the good /godly  part   and the  evil part  , that part of us has to be  either done away with or reconciled to God 
  "burned out "even   a " so to speak " phrasing 

  I never considered  having two  totally opposite natures within  warring
against each other before  , but I do believe this now 
  we are many things   that is scattered  and broken thoughts and actions  ,   that all has to be sorted out   by the Word of God His standard    and it   will happen  as God wills it to be so ..

..i do not do a very good job expressing....
 

VERY good job!  :thumbsup:

Amen, That's actually a very intimate description. 

Blessings

[reFORMer]

Regarding Daniel 12:2...

I don't have too much trouble considering the probability of chastening on the other side of the veil.  There certainly seems to be enough here that we can't escape.  Why should it not continue until whatever it is supposed to do will get done?  It is some of how we become those, "Spirits of just men made perfect."  Already for Christ, ultimately  for everything everywhere:  "No more pain!" (Rev 21:4-5)

It seem that even when all are resurrected, those who didn't have part in the 1st resurrection will yet, at least for a while, be somehow subject to some kind of inhibition, if not pain, as they are brought on into relationship with God and the holy ones.  There are vast powers associated with immortality and some (if not all) immortals need to be curtailed for additional training.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2)  Those who awake to life pertaining to that age are recognized as belonging to the first resurrection.  Here "contempt" (KJV) is from a root meaning repulse,something that may need to be yet done to control and train these.  They will know repulsion, a limitation that includes an internal experience that channels those needing to advance in the character of Christ.  "Shame" (fem.) here (which can mean pudenda) relates in the original to a condition due to a lack of grace in such examples as being of an enemy army, being barren, uncircumcised, or a widow; betroth, as if a surrender, etc., all of which indicate a receptive and subordinate nature as a precursor to fullness not yet attained.  "...to reproach for eonian repulsion" is how the Concordant Literal renders the phrase.  Not being overcomers (who were in the first resurrection,) not in sufficient likeness or similitude of God they are not quite free.  They are still subject.  This not only makes the first resurrection more desirable, but indicates immortality is but an entrance into a never-ending ascension as we are brought into the image and likeness of God.

[Doug]

Can someone explain this passage?

I have highlighted in red the parts that I'm struggling with.

To me it clearly says that the wicked will be punished!

Insead of the NIV, which you quoted, I use the KJV below, slightly modified.

Dan. 11:45
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

The above verse is a prophecy about the spiritual desolation of the church at the end of the age. The "glorious holy mountain" is prophetic terminology for the kingdom of God, which is the church. [Dan. 2:35, 45; Isa. 2:2] In the NT, God's people are identified with Israel, [Eph. 2:12-13] and Mount Zion, and the heavenly Jerusalem. [Heb 12:22-23] What Daniel describes in this verse is parallel to Paul's prophecy in 2 Thess. 2:2-4, which was probably based on this prophecy. The first part of Daniel's prophecy relates some of the events fulfilled in history during the reign of the Seleucid king Antiochus IV in the 2nd century BC. Events in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV can be considered as typical of the desolation of the church by the spirit of antichrist. [1 John 2:18; 4:3]

Dan. 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The mention of Michael connects this verse to the war in heaven in Rev. 12:4, between the dragon and his angels, and Michael and his angels. It is a spiritual war, not between flesh and blood; it is a war that involves our understanding the prophecies of scripture. The book Daniel refers to is the book of life, that is also mentioned in the NT. [Phil. 4:3; Rev. 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 20:15; 21:27; 22:19]

Dan. 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is probably the clearest reference to the resurrection in the entire OT. It was echoed by Jesus when he said,

John 5:8-9
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

The judgment is a time when the people of the world will be taught by God. The KJV says "damnation," in the above verse, but the word should be "judgment." The resurrection to everlasting life is the hope of a Christian. It occurs at the last trump, [1 Cor. 15:52] the 7th trumpet mentioned in Rev. 11:15-19.

Dan. 12:3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the sun; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Here I have changed "firmament" of the KJV to "sun" as this verse seems to be quoted by Jesus in the parable of the tares.

Mat. 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The church is depicted by a woman clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1, and the sun represents the true gospel. But false teachings have turned the sun to darkness. [Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20] The prophecy describes a time, at the end of the age, when the prophecies are understood and the saints overcome many of the delusions that have affected the church for centuries.

Dan. 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel's prophecy has been "sealed" and so has not been properly understood till the end time. But technical and scientific knowledge and travel have increased in our age.

Dan. 12:5-7
Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Here, the mysterious time, times, and an half is said to be the duration of the events described in Daniel's prophecies; the period extends to the end, when all of these prophecies are fulfilled. The saints are scattered today; there are about 38,000 denominations according to a Wikipedia article. The "time, times, and a half" in verse 7 is based on half of "seven times." The concept of "seven times" links to Leviticus 26. There are four periods of "seven times" listed here.

Dan. 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Recognizing the desolate state of the church is key to understanding Daniel's prophecies. The ones who are being "purified" are the saints, or Christians, but the "wicked" will not understand. Their status is like that of the unbelieving Jews mentioned by Paul in Rom. 11:32.

Dan. 12:11-13
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Daniel's time, times, and an half is expressed in two variants, 1,290 days and 1,335 days. These show it is symbolic, as no literal period of three and a half years can have two different numbers of days, while a symbolic three and a half years can. The numbers are different combinations of 12 and 13 month years, with months of 30 days. The 1,290 days is one year of 13 months, and the rest of 12 months. The 1,335 days is one year of 12 months, and the rest of 13 months.

In Lev. 26, there are four periods of "seven times." God is reconciled to his people Israel in the last "7 times." In the 70 weeks prophecy, Daniel refers to the curse described in Lev. 26. He says the curse was poured out, in the Babylonian captivity. [Dan. 9:11] So that would be the first of the four periods of "7 times." The last three periods of "7 times" correspond to the three sections of the 70 weeks. The 2nd "7 times" is the 7 weeks; the 3rd "7 times" is the 62 weeks, and the last "7 times" is the final week, a "week" being "7 times," where the units for "time" vary in the three sections.

The 70th week is when Christ "confirms the covenant with many." That is the gospel; it began with the ministry of Jesus. The "midst of the week" includes the abolition of sacrifices and oblations, that occurred at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. So the final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic of the remaining time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.

Doug

[Molly]

It is some of how we become those, "Spirits of just men made perfect." 

It seems to me that status [of perfection] would occur as soon as the spirit [and soul] of believers [overcomers] has left the body at physical death--


1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


--Rom 8



Interesting post, Doug.

[peacemaker]

Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit, not many days from now."

So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."  (Acts 1:4-8)

Now, from the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.  Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. (Daniel 12:11-12)

The time, times and half a time is a period of 3½ years; 1,290 days (358-360 days/year?). Thus, the three and a half year (cut short) ministry of Christ. And 40 days after the resurrection; he ascended, then (not many days following) descended in Spirit.

The not many days from now, if you will; 5 days later? (1,335)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Peter, about 50 days after the resurrection, preached boldly (beyond the limits of conventional thought or action) regarding the resurrection of Christ Jesus.

In the Spirit!

peacemaker

[Doug]

The time, times and half a time is a period of 3½ years; 1,290 days (358-360 days/year?). Thus, the three and a half year (cut short) ministry of Christ.

IMO, the time, times and a half a time is 3½ years, but they are not literal years. I suggest they begin at the end of the earthly ministry of Jesus, not the start of it. The ministry of Jesus, perhaps including the ministry of John the Baptist, was probably three and a half years. The first 69 weeks of the 70 weeks prophecy were fulfilled at the start of the ministry of Jesus. But 1,290 days is not three and a half literal years. Neither is 1,335 days. A lunar month is 29.53 days, so three and a half years is either about 1,240 days or about 1,270 days, if an embolismic month is included. In the Roman calendar, it is about 1,278 days, or 1,279 days if a leap year is included. Neither works out to 1,290 days, not even close. The two numbers given by Daniel fit the pattern of "a time, times and a half" as shown below:
   

1,290 days = 13*30 + 2*12*30 + 12*30/2
1,335 days = 12*30 + 2*13*30 + 13*30/2

Daniel used months of 30 days, and the years are of two kinds, leap years and regular years. In the Jewish and Babylonian calendars, there were 7 leap years with an extra month every 19 years. These numbers are not a literal three and a half years in any calendar.

I suggest the "time, times and a half" is a symbolic three and a half years, representing the entire age of the church. The angel in Dan. 12:7 says at the end of that period "all these things shall be finished." That refers to the end of the age and the resurrection of the saints at the last trump, which is still future for us. Together with the period of the ministry of Jesus, it is the final week of the 70 weeks in Dan. 9:24-27, in which the Messiah confirms his covenant with many, referring to the gospel going to the world, and the work of the Spirit of Christ in his church.

Doug

[jesushandsarekindhands]

  Hi Marc,
  I always had trouble  with this  too .. 
to be honest with you nothing   I ever read or heard  satisfied   my soul /mind for a answer either   for many a years
  But I prayed to God /Jesus  real hard to help me  understand  His Word
and settle it in my heart once and for all ..
  I can  tell you what I believe now , and it might not satisfy  your  mind/soul   right now , but  be a praying to God  and the Holy Spirit  to  lead you on this one  .. we all here will be a praying for one another

   to me the  two natures we all seem to possess

  the good /godly  part   and the  evil part  , that part of us has to be  either done away with or reconciled to God 
  "burned out "even   a " so to speak " phrasing 

  I never considered  having two  totally opposite natures within  warring
against each other before  , but I do believe this now 
  we are many things   that is scattered  and broken thoughts and actions  ,   that all has to be sorted out   by the Word of God His standard    and it   will happen  as God wills it to be so ..

I hope this small amount helps some how ,
I do not do a very good job expressing in words my thoughts
  I sure some one can  do a bit better for you mate , on this one ..

   :HeartThrob: rose
 

You did help me thank you.  I understand.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Regarding Daniel 12:2...

I don't have too much trouble considering the probability of chastening on the other side of the veil.  There certainly seems to be enough here that we can't escape.  Why should it not continue until whatever it is supposed to do will get done?  It is some of how we become those, "Spirits of just men made perfect."  Already for Christ, ultimately  for everything everywhere:  "No more pain!" (Rev 21:4-5)

It seem that even when all are resurrected, those who didn't have part in the 1st resurrection will yet, at least for a while, be somehow subject to some kind of inhibition, if not pain, as they are brought on into relationship with God and the holy ones.  There are vast powers associated with immortality and some (if not all) immortals need to be curtailed for additional training.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2)  Those who awake to life pertaining to that age are recognized as belonging to the first resurrection.  Here "contempt" (KJV) is from a root meaning repulse,something that may need to be yet done to control and train these.  They will know repulsion, a limitation that includes an internal experience that channels those needing to advance in the character of Christ.  "Shame" (fem.) here (which can mean pudenda) relates in the original to a condition due to a lack of grace in such examples as being of an enemy army, being barren, uncircumcised, or a widow; betroth, as if a surrender, etc., all of which indicate a receptive and subordinate nature as a precursor to fullness not yet attained.  "...to reproach for eonian repulsion" is how the Concordant Literal renders the phrase.  Not being overcomers (who were in the first resurrection,) not in sufficient likeness or similitude of God they are not quite free.  They are still subject.  This not only makes the first resurrection more desirable, but indicates immortality is but an entrance into a never-ending ascension as we are brought into the image and likeness of God.

I liked your answer so much ive pasted it into wordpad so i can read it again and again untll it sinks in, thank you.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Can someone explain this passage?

I have highlighted in red the parts that I'm struggling with.

To me it clearly says that the wicked will be punished!

Insead of the NIV, which you quoted, I use the KJV below, slightly modified.

Dan. 11:45
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

The above verse is a prophecy about the spiritual desolation of the church at the end of the age. The "glorious holy mountain" is prophetic terminology for the kingdom of God, which is the church. [Dan. 2:35, 45; Isa. 2:2] In the NT, God's people are identified with Israel, [Eph. 2:12-13] and Mount Zion, and the heavenly Jerusalem. [Heb 12:22-23] What Daniel describes in this verse is parallel to Paul's prophecy in 2 Thess. 2:2-4, which was probably based on this prophecy. The first part of Daniel's prophecy relates some of the events fulfilled in history during the reign of the Seleucid king Antiochus IV in the 2nd century BC. Events in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV can be considered as typical of the desolation of the church by the spirit of antichrist. [1 John 2:18; 4:3]

Dan. 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The mention of Michael connects this verse to the war in heaven in Rev. 12:4, between the dragon and his angels, and Michael and his angels. It is a spiritual war, not between flesh and blood; it is a war that involves our understanding the prophecies of scripture. The book Daniel refers to is the book of life, that is also mentioned in the NT. [Phil. 4:3; Rev. 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12; 20:15; 21:27; 22:19]

Dan. 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is probably the clearest reference to the resurrection in the entire OT. It was echoed by Jesus when he said,

John 5:8-9
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

The judgment is a time when the people of the word will be taught by God. The KJV says "damnation," in the above verse, but the word should be "judgment." The resurrection to everlasting life is the hope of a Christian. It occurs at the last trump, [1 Cor. 15:52] the 7th trumpet mentioned in Rev. 11:15-19.

Dan. 12:3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the sun; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Here I have changed "firmament" of the KJV to "sun" as this verse seems to be quoted by Jesus in the parable of the tares.

Mat. 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The church is depicted by a woman clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1, and the sun represents the true gospel. But false teachings have turned the sun to darkness. [Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20] The prophecy describes a time, at the end of the age, when the prophecies are understood and the saints overcome many of the delusions that have affected the church for centuries.

Dan. 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel's prophecy has been "sealed" and so has not been properly understood till the end time. But technical and scientific knowledge and travel have increased in our age.

Dan. 12:5-7
Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Here, the mysterious time, times, and an half is said to be the duration of the events described in Daniel's prophecies; the period extends to the end, when all of these prophecies are fulfilled. The saints are scattered today; there are about 38,000 denominations according to a Wikipedia article. The "time, times, and a half" in verse 7 is based on half of "seven times." The concept of "seven times" links to Leviticus 26. There are four periods of "seven times" listed here.

Dan. 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Recognizing the desolate state of the church is key to understanding Daniel's prophecies. The ones who are being "purified" are the saints, or Christians, but the "wicked" will not understand. Their status is like that of the unbelieving Jews mentioned by Paul in Rom. 11:32.

Dan. 12:11-13
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Daniel's time, times, and an half is expressed in two variants, 1,290 days and 1,335 days. These show it is symbolic, as no literal period of three and a half years can have two different numbers of days, while a symbolic three and a half years can. The numbers are different combinations of 12 and 13 month years, with months of 30 days. The 1,290 days is one year of 13 months, and the rest of 12 months. The 1,335 days is one year of 12 months, and the rest of 13 months.

In Lev. 26, there are four periods of "seven times." God is reconciled to his people Israel in the last "7 times." In the 70 weeks prophecy, Daniel refers to the curse described in Lev. 26. He says the curse was poured out, in the Babylonian captivity. [Dan. 9:11] So that would be the first of the four periods of "7 times." The last three periods of "7 times" correspond to the three sections of the 70 weeks. The 2nd "7 times" is the 7 weeks; the 3rd "7 times" is the 62 weeks, and the last "7 times" is the final week, a "week" being "7 times," where the units for "time" vary in the three sections.

The 70th week is when Christ "confirms the covenant with many." That is the gospel; it began with the ministry of Jesus. The "midst of the week" includes the abolition of sacrifices and oblations, that occurred at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. So the final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic of the remaining time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.

Doug

Doug thank you, ill rearead this a lot until it sinks into my noggin lol!  Thanks a lot it was very very helpful .

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I cant thank you all enough for all the help yous have given me.

[CHB]

Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit, not many days from now."

So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."  (Acts 1:4-8)

Now, from the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.  Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. (Daniel 12:11-12)

The time, times and half a time is a period of 3½ years; 1,290 days (358-360 days/year?). Thus, the three and a half year (cut short) ministry of Christ. And 40 days after the resurrection; he ascended, then (not many days following) descended in Spirit.

The not many days from now, if you will; 5 days later? (1,335)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Peter, about 50 days after the resurrection, preached boldly (beyond the limits of conventional thought or action) regarding the resurrection of Christ Jesus.

In the Spirit!

peacemaker

peacemaker,

I liked this answer, I believe you are right. I think most if not all of Daniel has been fulfilled.

CHB

[peacemaker]

The period of a man's life is short, uncertain, as death may occur within a day. Thus, man comes into the world with a cry and goes out with a groan (unrest), or he can rejoice.

All time in prophecy, whether literal or symbolic occurs at the appointed time; and all time lines, begin or end. Are we to remain captive to Babylon?

The "spirit of error" (called the anti-Christ) works to inflict suffering upon us, or if not on us then on our brethren, so that we suffer with them.

"I consider the sufferings of this present time, not worthy of comparison with the glory that is/will be revealed in/through us" (Romans 8:18).

Is it given to those who suffer for righteousness, no more than "a time, times, and half a time" in this life?  Can you be taken at age 20, 60, or 30, having only a portion of the suffering in and of this temporal life? Reducing our troubles or cutting them in half, as in dividing the time?

People's thoughts have been taken captive with things of the past, and with that of the worldly future scenarios, disregarding their own personal growth through the power of Christ (the Spirit) which operates within their lives. The unpleasant, or fearful thoughts for many in this life, begins and ends shortly; death.

"As for you, go your way to the end, then you will enter into rest, and rise again for your permanent portion (the part of the whole, allotted to, or belonging to, that person) at the end of days" (Daniel 12:13)

To the degree that you partake of the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing!

"Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands, saying, Prophesy to us, Christ! Who is the one who struck You?" (Matthew 26:67-68)

"Then some began to spit on Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him, and to say to Him, Prophesy! And the officers struck Him with the palms of their hands" (Mark 14:65).

"Now the men who held Jesus mocked Him and beat Him. And having blindfolded Him, they struck Him on the face and asked Him, saying, Prophesy! Who is the one who struck You? And many other things they blasphemously (irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred) spoke against Him" (Luke 22:63-65).

The purpose of truth and revelation is not to substantiate our illusions; but to eliminate them!

peacemaker

[Tim B]

Can someone explain this passage?

I have highlighted in red the parts that I'm struggling with.

To me it clearly says that the wicked will be punished!


Daniel 12
The End Times
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise [a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?"

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?"

9 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."


I do want to believe in universal salvation, and am finding passages that support it, but just as many that go against it, and its not really about what I want, it's about what is true, but i would like to hear opinions on this.

This seems to relate with Revelation 22:10-11:

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

Personally, I think these verses in Daniel and Revelation, about the "end times" are speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Thus, when it states the above, that some "will continue to be wicked" and the "vile continue to be vile" it's talking about those who have been wicked and ignored Jesus' warning, about Jerusalem's coming destruction, and that there's simply no reason to try to warn them anymore. It's too late. No more people, at least by witnessing to them, will heed Jesus' warning to flee Jerusalem before it, and consequently themselves, are destroyed.

[Molly]

This seems to relate with Revelation 22:10-11:

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

I was thinking about this scripture today.  It so much resembles what is going on right now.  Such extremes of good and evil.

Tonight on 60 minutes they interviewed a man who was a Yale/Harvard educated lawyer.  He stole 400 million dollars over the course of his career.  What is that all about?

It's a type of insanity that doesn't even know it is evil.  He lived in 10 million dollar houses and had an 18 million dollar boat and was juggling constantly to keep all his ill gotten gains in the air, robbing Peter to pay Paul. 

Such an extreme in such an ordinary person.  You've probably never heard of him.

On the other hand, there are those who continue to do right and continue to be holy, standing right alongside him [in society].  You've definitely never heard of those people.

[Tim B]

This seems to relate with Revelation 22:10-11:

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

I was thinking about this scripture today.  It so much resembles what is going on right now.  Such extremes of good and evil.

Tonight on 60 minutes they interviewed a man who was a Yale/Harvard educated lawyer.  He stole 400 million dollars over the course of his career.  What is that all about?

It's a type of insanity that doesn't even know it is evil.  He lived in 10 million dollar houses and had an 18 million dollar boat and was juggling constantly to keep all his ill gotten gains in the air, robbing Peter to pay Paul. 

Such an extreme in such an ordinary person.  You've probably never heard of him.

On the other hand, there are those who continue to do right and continue to be holy, standing right alongside him [in society].  You've definitely never heard of those people.

Yeah, I didn't hear about that case, but I could definitely see it happening.  :sigh:

Probably the reason we don't hear about the righteous people is because they don't do anything bad to make them news worthy. If the Gospel means "Good News," then the average News Broadcasting Channel should stand for "Bad News". They always talk about depressing stuff.