3 questions about UR.

[V.I.D.]

The UR doctrine has many questions that arrise and many beliefs in it .
Some believe that there is no literal lake of fire after death .
Some believe that there is no such thing at all and no one is tortured after death .
Others believe that the fire is here on earth .
Others believe that some will be burned untill they pay off ,or in order to be reconciled and that this will continue for a period of time .

The main thing is that all off these lead to simillar questions in my head .
They are all connected to this:

Is it love to make someone suffer ?
Is it love to LET someone suffer ?
Is it love to torture someone ?

....in order to turn him in to something you want .

(Dont copy eny bible verses please !I want your opinion and not scriptures that i can understand in 10 different ways )

peace

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I want someone to suffer in my life right now.
Why?  For his own good.  Not for mine.
In fact, I can't bear to see him suffer, but I know that if he doesn't he will always be lost in sin, miserable and making others miserable.
It would be for his good that God make him suffer so as to humble him and teach him what life is really all about, and in turn helping him would help others he comes into contact with.

I guess it's called tough love.

When i used to get a stern talking too or even a smack because i did something wrong as a child (ran out onto the road without looking) I didn't enjoy the punishment.  But, later I knew it was for my own good and thanked my parents for caring enough to correct me.

We can't see where we are going wrong sometimes.  Sometimes it takes a parent, a friend, or yes, a heavenly father.

[V.I.D.]

Its strange ,but i still believe that love is not connected to punishment .
That is because i allways believed that it is possible to not harm and cause suffering yet to save and be good . Its strange belief that no one has ,but i have it ,because i think that everything is possible .Even though i cant imagine it well enough.
There are no imposible things .

This nature that we have in us makes things different ,because the only way that we may change our path is by being confronted and defeated . Its a wild thing that i hate...Even in the animal world its like this.(But was i the one that created it to be like this ?)

I also think that it is no sin ,or evil that i want to choose a different thing than some God would want me to choose .
I Choose it ,because i see some good in it . It may not be good in the real world and i might be lied ,but its the good in the concept that people reach for .Also the real world has limitations .
I remember a great russian philosopher saying how unfair it is that we cant jump over the sky and reach the beautifull stars .I love his thought!


Being forced to be this or that just because a GOD made it impossible for one to have his dreams seems evil to me .
And its not love to burn someone for it ..or for enything .

We are not evil beings as Christianity says . People are good ,simply reaching for the stars ,but unable to jump high enough to grasp them .This is why we make all those mistakes and idiocies by being bad to each other so many times.We all try to break the barrier and our own limitations yet we are still limited by some degree .

I will smack my child if i have to..
I will do it ,but will never love this way in life and nature ,or see it as true love .

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Its strange ,but i still believe that love is not connected to punishment .
That is because i allways believed that it is possible to not harm and cause suffering yet to save and be good . Its strange belief that no one has ,but i have it ,because i think that everything is possible .Even though i cant imagine it well enough.
There are no imposible things .

This nature that we have in us makes things different ,because the only way that we may change our path is by being confronted and defeated . Its a wild thing that i hate...Even in the animal world its like this.(But was i the one that created it to be like this ?)

I also think that it is no sin ,or evil that i want to choose a different thing than some God would want me to choose .
I Choose it ,because i see some good in it . It may not be good in the real world and i might be lied ,but its the good in the concept that people reach for .Also the real world has limitations .
I remember a great russian philosopher saying how unfair it is that we cant jump over the sky and reach the beautifull stars .I love his thought!


Being forced to be this or that just because a GOD made it impossible for one to have his dreams seems evil to me .
And its not love to burn someone for it ..or for enything .

We are not evil beings as Christianity says . People are good ,simply reaching for the stars ,but unable to jump high enough to grasp them .This is why we make all those mistakes and idiocies by being bad to each other so many times.We all try to break the barrier and our own limitations yet we are still limited by some degree .

I will smack my child if i have to..
I will do it ,but will never love this way in life and nature ,or see it as true love .

I saw a woman on a bus a few months ago.  Her child was running around the bus mad, he was screaming and shouting and being a total nuisance.
The mother said
"Stop it", but the child didn't listen and continued to run around mad, hitting his little brother, pulling his sisters hair and throwing things at other passengers on the bus.
"Stop it", she said again quietly.  Again, the child didn't listen.

After hearing the woman say "Stop it", about 100 times, I was getting more fed up with her than i was about the child, she was being more of a nuisance to me personally.  More than this, the child was doing a lot of things that could have got himself or others hurt badly.  He was running up and down the bus, distracting the driver, hitting people (who may well have hit him back) etc etc.
The mother obviously didn't care enough about the child or she would have done a bit more than say "Stop it", through a weak voice, barely above a whisper.  The kid had no respect for his mother.

The bus came to a stop and a man stepped in.  It was the boys father.
He saw his kid running around throwing things around the bus and he roard
"SIT DOWN AND BEHAVE NOW!"

The kid burst into tears and sat down.
After 2 or 3 minutes of him sobbing, he eventually said "Sorry dad" and then he said "Sorry mum".  (Repentance).
Suddenly everyone was happy again.  The kid started smiling, the parents were happy, the passengers and bus driver was happy and we got to our destination safely.

To me the dad loved him more because he cared enough about his son who he loved to discipline his child, FOR HIS OWN GOOD, and that takes a LOT more love than to sit their and whisper "Stop it".

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good illustration. This is why it says a man that will not discipline his child, HATES his child. When God dropped that into my spirit and made it life in me one day, it changed the way I thought about things forever.

You can make it personal and apply it to everyday situations like you described above, apply it to yourself if you have children, apply it to spiritual fathers like Paul who had a man turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit might be saved, and yes, even to God.

We fight not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities in high places. What you saw in the mother was a spirit of hate in operation. And no, I'm not saying the woman hates her child, although that could be the literal case as well. God knows.

I'm saying that she was allowing that spirit to raise up in her through ignorance and lack of understanding of God's word, and take over her temple as something that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.

We have all been given things to overcome and cast out of the temple just like Jesus overturned the tables of them that sold doves, and ran them out of the temple with a scourge. We see this as literal but like all the rest of the scriptures it has a spiritual message.

We are to overcome thru the Spirit of Christ and His Word, in this bondage of corruption we were lowered into. There is no shame and no condemnation in that, it is only a statement of fact. He runs the things out of our temple today as well. This is what the discipline to the Word and His Spirit is for, ie. to keep transforming us into His image by the removal of everything that is NOT.

Doves, among other things, symbolize peace. True peace is when the flesh is no longer warring against the Spirit. The things that we allow to stay within our temple "sell" our peace, that is our God given right to have as a child of God. Blessings....

[V.I.D.]

I will smack my child if i have to..
I will do it ,but will never love this WAY in LIFE and NATURE ,or see it as true love .

I dont know why you guys did not see that ,but thought that i said enything about not preventing my child from getting hurt .I never said i would let my child get hurt and not correct him out of love by spanking him . I just dont like that METHOD of TEACHING IN NATURE AND LIFE . Not that it is good to let things be just like that .

Why did you make it look as if i said that it is good to not do enything to protect your children,or teach them ?
Discipline is exacly for protection . Discipline gives us the ability to live in a sosciety !
Yet you still didnt get the point .

(ok cant you read ? )

I was also saying it in a simbolic way .I just dont see it being fair to teach enyone by putting all hell on his head while before that YOU let them do all the evil that they like without preventing it ,when you had the power to.
This is what i dislike.
I sometimes wish that it was just like a slap on the butt ,but it is not . Its much more painfull and only if you feel the suffering of those people all over the globe will you know how things really are .
I dont care what you say .
There is a possibility for a better way in life for everyone .A life based on such a way of teaching by torture and suffering is NOT LOVE and i will not stand for it .
Even if i cant see how is this true i will still search and believe that there is a such a way no matter what you ,nature ,God, may try to say to convince me .

I will repeat it again . Everything is possible !
Even the things that we do not see ,or the things that do not exist can be made ,because they can be created .
So it is with the teaching without torment . It can be done ,only not by someone from our level of development .

[Gab]

Is it love to make someone suffer ?
Is it love to LET someone suffer ?
Is it love to torture someone ?

....in order to turn him in to something you want .

Well, here's the way I look at it.  Suppose you have a friend who is clearly addicted to drugs, and whose life has gone significantly downhill because of it.  As a last-ditch effort, you and your friends stage an intervention.  From the moment it starts, he'll hate it.  He'll probably suffer a great deal and curse you.  But at the end of the day, when he's sober, he'll know just how big a favor you did him.  And no one would doubt that your actions came from a sincere love for your friend, even though it caused him temporary pain.

I view the lake of fire and brimstone in much the same way.  The torment is not God cackling while subjecting you to torture.  The torment comes from within you, from your unwillingness to change because you feel an empty sense of security in the way things are.  Sin is much like a drug: it momentarily gets you high, but in the end it destroys you and makes you miserable.  God is the one staging an intervention, to make you realize just how much more there is to find outside of the confines of the temporary Earthly pleasures of sin.

There have been studies done that suggest that those who are addicted to drugs are in that state because their life is empty, and that the drug use is in some sense a symptom, not the problem itself.  Those studies suggest that improving quality of life and giving someone something to live for is, thus, the best way to get someone off of drugs.  I think that sin is much the same sort of thing: one who lives in sin does so only because they have not had their eyes opened to the beauty of the alternative.  And God will be there to help us all understand.