Christian's respone: "You only want to hear what you"

[IceDash]

They attack me because they said I don't like what the bible said about hell, they said bad happen to good people and you don't like it but it's God's will and you are not that important, I have God which is perfect, not you, be gone!


geez...

[WhiteWings]

They attack me because they said I don't like what the bible said about hell,

A more correct statement would be:

They attack me because they said I don't like what their interpretation of their (corrupted) Bible said about hell,

[Gab]

This is pretty much classic psychological projection: there's some quality in you you're subconsciously aware of that you don't like (in this case, that they only hear what they want to hear), so as a defense mechanism you claim that everyone but yourself holds that quality instead.

It's times like these that one bit of advice from Jesus seems particularly apt:

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town." (Matthew 10:14)

[Tim B]

They attack me because they said I don't like what the bible said about hell, they said bad happen to good people and you don't like it but it's God's will and you are not that important, I have God which is perfect, not you, be gone!


geez...

And that's when you say: "and YOUR god is too much of a MONSTER to be a 'loving God'."

That, or you just ignore them. That might be better.

[IceDash]

They attack me because they said I don't like what the bible said about hell, they said bad happen to good people and you don't like it but it's God's will and you are not that important, I have God which is perfect, not you, be gone!


geez...

And that's when you say: "and YOUR god is too much of a MONSTER to be a 'loving God'."

That, or you just ignore them. That might be better.

They will always answer "It is not up to me, It's God wills, it's justice"

[WhiteWings]

They will always answer "It is not up to me, It's God wills, it's justice"

But that's not really the topic of the discussion isn't it?
The Bible is indeed about will, love and justice of God.
I think all agree with that.
But the point of the discussion is to proof what exactly is that will, love and justice.
Therefore you can't say "I'm right because it's Gods will, love and justice"
You can't use as proof what you are proving.
But neither you can't just repeat over and over God is love. It may be a fact but it's not proof.
The only proof are verses.
Then context kicks in. I think a forum isn't really suited to discuss context.
You saw the discussion with cog/lee/tc. When the meaning of a verse was discussed the verse was never discussed but 'debunked' with another verse. But as long as you don't know the true meaning of a verse you can't use it for anything.
In a debate it's required that both sides are prepared to admit their wrong if good arguments are given.
And that is very often missing in such debates. So noone is going to win that debate. My guess is that not even Jesus would win such a debate (without using some devine powers)
But still I think such debates can be fruitful.
I think for many it is the revelation of the year to just see it mentioned that for ever means age. So your message might reach the silent man or woman in the background that's just reading...

[ducktapehero]

Arguing with a closed mind is like trying to read a book without opening it. You simply will not learn anything. In my talks, if they seem to hold on to their beliefs and aren't even interested in actually listening to me then I just ignore them.

I love to spread the news but I won't waste my time on people like that. Ironically, I have greater success with unchurched people, they usually already believe similarly to what I'm talking about.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Me too, Ducktapehero (your name just cracks me up, btw  :laughing7:). The churches didn't get the chance yet to plant their own peculiar-to-them brand of tares. Blessings.....

[WhiteWings]

Arguing with a closed mind is like trying to read a book without opening it.

:thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

:cloud9: Me too, Ducktapehero (your name just cracks me up, btw  :laughing7:). The churches didn't get the chance yet to plant their own peculiar-to-them brand of tares. Blessings.....

I just realized that the tune "jukeboxhero" went through my mind when I read this post.   :laughing7:

[ducktapehero]

I just realized that the tune "jukeboxhero" went through my mind when I read this post.

LOL Yea, I always yell "DUCKTAPEHERO". Funny story, before my wife and I had our child occasionally we'd have a few drinks and listen to music. If that song came on I'd crank it up all the way. For some reason when I did that my femaile cat would start getting really lovable and would drive you crazy. It was hilarious.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

I can understand the ET point of view on the idea that you want to hear what you want. They cite 2 Tim. 4, vv. 3-4:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I can't agree however with the idea that God's love for all His creatures can be considered "fables," or that the desire to see God FORGIVE His creatures is "lustful."


Love to all,
Brian


Because thy lovingkindness is better than life, my lips shall praise thee. Ps. 63:3

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I can understand the ET point of view on the idea that you want to hear what you want. They cite 2 Tim. 4, vv. 3-4:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I can't agree however with the idea that God's love for all His creatures can be considered "fables," or that the desire to see God FORGIVE His creatures is "lustful."


Love to all,
Brian


Because thy lovingkindness is better than life, my lips shall praise thee. Ps. 63:3

That is SO true. 

It's not like were being unfair believing in universal salvation...We just love our fellow humans more!  We don't really want to watch our enemies suffer, we just want to see them 'get better' for their OWN good, because they are SICK IN sin, like we all are...So sue us! 

What can be wrong with that!  There's nothing been more right I tell you!

And it's not like we lead people away from Jesus - if anything; Universal Salvation brings MORE people TO Jesus...Its even bringing people back to faith in God who long since gave up their faith because they couldn't accept the eternal punishing doctrines they had thrown at them in the past by people who really didn't give a damn.

For me, the minute i realized that God might be actually fair and that he might actually love others as much as I did - I wanted to be with him....

...Then I found out he loved them even more than I did and I felt a bit silly for once EVEN thinking/considering that eternal punishment might be true.

Well our enemies and all those haters who preach eternal damnation who really don't care about anyone but themselves will just have to get used to ALL of us being in heaven with them...They're stuck with it, whether they like it or not.

Matthew 20:15
   Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

[WhiteWings]

Hi Brian,

I can understand the ET point of view on the idea that you want to hear what you want. They cite 2 Tim. 4, vv. 3-4:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Such verses are of little to no use for anyone. Everyone seems to agree the verse is true but it's always "them" that's wrong. So the verse proves nothing for either side.

I can't agree however with the idea that God's love for all His creatures can be considered "fables," or that the desire to see God FORGIVE His creatures is "lustful."

And that's again your opinion (I agree with).
Personally I have never seen a solid debate between the ET and UR camps.
Discussion seldom gets beyond throwing verses at each other. Sure verses are needed in that debate. But just verses won't do much good because both sides know the verses and came to opposite conclusions.
Usually it goes like seen on those little YouTube discussions. Discussion starts. Then someone posts a few UR verses. As a reply some ET verses are posted. Then someone gives some background info. Then that's debunked by calling that person heretic. And again nothing is solved.
And it will not be solved by men. If all would agree that would prove the Bible wrong. Something big has to happen first :laughing7:

[reFORMer]

Remember, 97% of the people who say they've been born again and attend church with some regularity have never read the Bible through even once.  The preacher run system that calls itself the church protects its income and control.  Part of how this is done is to maintain the illusion that those not of the titled elite don't rightly know enough, so they must sit down and shut up.  The possessors of the pulpit will make all things known as they ought to be understood if you continue to be a part of the paying audience.  They are taught the man on stage is able to make anybody willing to listen him to understand the truth and they believe he will tell them what God wants them to know.  This portion of Scripture is therefore not popularly known because it explains instead why religious professionals who are righteous men and even spiritually gifted cannot understand the truth.  I think the reason I find this teaching of Jesus hard to warmly embrace is because I assume anything I diligently study and pray over will open to me.  It can be suprising how much we are not under the discipline of the Holy Spirit.  Until certain areas of our lives are pleasing to God we are not qualified and will never be admitted into the mysteries or granted the powers of the kingdom of God.  Understand, God doesn't want some people to be healed so He prevents them from understanding.  We go around assuming anybody we try to explain the truth to can understand it if they want to.

Matthew 13:10-17 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
10 And, approaching, the disciples say to Him, "Wherefore art Thou speaking in parables to them?"
11 Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given.
12 For anyone who has, to him shall be given, and he shall have a superfluity. Yet anyone who has not, that also which he has shall be taken away from him.
13 Therefore in parables am I speaking to them, seeing that, observing, they are not observing, and hearing, they are not hearing, neither are they understanding.
14 And filled up in them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that is saying, '"In hearing, you will be hearing, and may by no means be understanding, And observing, you will be observing, and may by no means be perceiving."
15 For stoutened is the heart of this people, And with their ears heavily they hear, And with their eyes they squint, Lest at some time they may be perceiving with their eyes, And with their ears should be hearing, And with their heart may be understanding, And should be turning about, And I shall be healing them.'
16 "Yet happy are your eyes, for they are observing, and your ears, for they are hearing.
17 For verily I am saying to you that many prophets and just men yearn to perceive what you are observing, and perceive not, and to hear what you are hearing, and hear not.

What has to be changed is our hard heartedness, paying attention only to our own evaluations as we weigh everything we hear for error, arrogantly offended as we look on with a jaundiced eye, everything appearing to not meet with our approval.  People like this will not be admitted to God's treasure house.

[Molly]

11 Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given.

[the] "secrets" [of the kingdom of heaven]

G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.


We are talking about an initiate priesthood here, where the secrets are heavily guarded [by God].

Anyone know why this must be?

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Jesushandsarekindhands,

It really is so true that ETers just DON'T CARE about anyone who doesn't believe. (They also back that with verses about "not being partakers with the wicked" etc.
What's more, their fundamental doctrine is this: "I chose Christ with my free will. You do the same or go to hell!" THIS is, I would say, the message of the vast majority of "Christians."
And they are actually quite "proud" of their hell. In fact, they would say that believers will be "laughing" as the wicked perish.

But LOVE sees through all of this.
I think the most hard-lined ETers are young people who feel like they have their world under control. I heard a radio conversation on YouTube where a fundamentalist told the (gay) radio DJ that he hoped (the dj) would die of a brain tumor. Terrible!
And he considers himself a "follower of Christ!" But WHICH Christ is that??????

Brian

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Jesushandsarekindhands,

It really is so true that ETers just DON'T CARE about anyone who doesn't believe. (They also back that with verses about "not being partakers with the wicked" etc.
What's more, their fundamental doctrine is this: "I chose Christ with my free will. You do the same or go to hell!" THIS is, I would say, the message of the vast majority of "Christians."
And they are actually quite "proud" of their hell. In fact, they would say that believers will be "laughing" as the wicked perish.

But LOVE sees through all of this.
I think the most hard-lined ETers are young people who feel like they have their world under control. I heard a radio conversation on YouTube where a fundamentalist told the (gay) radio DJ that he hoped (the dj) would die of a brain tumor. Terrible!
And he considers himself a "follower of Christ!" But WHICH Christ is that??????

Brian

They don't know Jesus.  If Jesus walked into their church tommorow they would probably throw him out.
Either that Jesus would throw them out.

It really saddens me.

That's the difference!  I WANT these people to be saved and they would HAPPILY see me fry in hell forever.

That saddens me!

I can only hope that God will have mercy on all of us.

The last will be first my brother.

[Gab]

(They also back that with verses about "not being partakers with the wicked" etc.

I really wish that translations of 2 Corinthians 6:14 did not use the rather obscure and outdated verb "to yoke".  I remember I basically asked people what the word actually meant, since this is the section of the Bible that people tend to rely on most heavily to show that Christians are not to interact with non-Christians.  No one gave me the right answer.

The truth is that a "yoke" is an agent of oppression and servitude, and "to be yoked" refers to the action of coming under such an agent.  We're being told not to submit ourselves to the cruel laws and rules of pagan gods that demand things such as the sacrifice of children, not that we must dissociate ourselves from everyone who does not believe and interact with them only from afar with a 20-foot conversion pole.  Jesus sat with, had conversations with, and dined with sinners - but, then again, who cares what that weirdo did? :laughing7: :sigh:

[Beloved Servant]

Remember, 97% of the people who say they've been born again and attend church with some regularity have never read the Bible through even once.  The preacher run system that calls itself the church protects its income and control.  Part of how this is done is to maintain the illusion that those not of the titled elite don't rightly know enough, so they must sit down and shut up.  The possessors of the pulpit will make all things known as they ought to be understood if you continue to be a part of the paying audience.  They are taught the man on stage is able to make anybody willing to listen him to understand the truth and they believe he will tell them what God wants them to know.  This portion of Scripture is therefore not popularly known because it explains instead why religious professionals who are righteous men and even spiritually gifted cannot understand the truth.  I think the reason I find this teaching of Jesus hard to warmly embrace is because I assume anything I diligently study and pray over will open to me.  It can be suprising how much we are not under the discipline of the Holy Spirit.  Until certain areas of our lives are pleasing to God we are not qualified and will never be admitted into the mysteries or granted the powers of the kingdom of God.  Understand, God doesn't want some people to be healed so He prevents them from understanding.  We go around assuming anybody we try to explain the truth to can understand it if they want to.

Matthew 13:10-17 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
10 And, approaching, the disciples say to Him, "Wherefore art Thou speaking in parables to them?"
11 Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given.
12 For anyone who has, to him shall be given, and he shall have a superfluity. Yet anyone who has not, that also which he has shall be taken away from him.
13 Therefore in parables am I speaking to them, seeing that, observing, they are not observing, and hearing, they are not hearing, neither are they understanding.
14 And filled up in them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that is saying, '"In hearing, you will be hearing, and may by no means be understanding, And observing, you will be observing, and may by no means be perceiving."
15 For stoutened is the heart of this people, And with their ears heavily they hear, And with their eyes they squint, Lest at some time they may be perceiving with their eyes, And with their ears should be hearing, And with their heart may be understanding, And should be turning about, And I shall be healing them.'
16 "Yet happy are your eyes, for they are observing, and your ears, for they are hearing.
17 For verily I am saying to you that many prophets and just men yearn to perceive what you are observing, and perceive not, and to hear what you are hearing, and hear not.

What has to be changed is our hard heartedness, paying attention only to our own evaluations as we weigh everything we hear for error, arrogantly offended as we look on with a jaundiced eye, everything appearing to not meet with our approval.  People like this will not be admitted to God's treasure house.

Matthew 3:

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him...

The sixth seal!
As our old heavens are rolled together as a scroll, so are the new heavens unrolled and unfurled over us as a scroll.

Until we hear the Father say: "This (These) is (are) my beloved Son(s), in whom I am well pleased,"
we continue to press in.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

(They also back that with verses about "not being partakers with the wicked" etc.

I really wish that translations of 2 Corinthians 6:14 did not use the rather obscure and outdated verb "to yoke".  I remember I basically asked people what the word actually meant, since this is the section of the Bible that people tend to rely on most heavily to show that Christians are not to interact with non-Christians.  No one gave me the right answer.

The truth is that a "yoke" is an agent of oppression and servitude, and "to be yoked" refers to the action of coming under such an agent.  We're being told not to submit ourselves to the cruel laws and rules of pagan gods that demand things such as the sacrifice of children, not that we must dissociate ourselves from everyone who does not believe and interact with them only from afar with a 20-foot conversion pole.  Jesus sat with, had conversations with, and dined with sinners - but, then again, who cares what that weirdo did? :laughing7: :sigh:

Thanks Gab, i always wondered what that word 'yoke' meant.  As always, very interesting and helpful!
I think to see the beauty of universal salvation you have to know what love is first and foremost...Ive know a few pastors who wouldnt blatantly admit it, but i know they were hoping for everyone to be saved!

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Jesus is great!  Sorry it just has to be said!  What a guy! 

[Beloved Servant]

Jesus is the image of God.
And we are the image of Christ.

[Molly]

(They also back that with verses about "not being partakers with the wicked" etc.

I really wish that translations of 2 Corinthians 6:14 did not use the rather obscure and outdated verb "to yoke".  I remember I basically asked people what the word actually meant, since this is the section of the Bible that people tend to rely on most heavily to show that Christians are not to interact with non-Christians.  No one gave me the right answer.

The truth is that a "yoke" is an agent of oppression and servitude, and "to be yoked" refers to the action of coming under such an agent.  We're being told not to submit ourselves to the cruel laws and rules of pagan gods that demand things such as the sacrifice of children, not that we must dissociate ourselves from everyone who does not believe and interact with them only from afar with a 20-foot conversion pole.  Jesus sat with, had conversations with, and dined with sinners - but, then again, who cares what that weirdo did? :laughing7: :sigh:

The word, yoked, isn't outmoded and outdated.  It's farmer talk for a device which ties two beasts of burden together, like two oxen tied [yoked] together at the neck.  So you are under a type of servitude to what you are yoked with because you are tied to it and if it pulls in one direction, you'll be pulled along with it.  We are not to be unequally yoked--coupled with another who is walking in darkness--well, that's just good advice...

Jesus is the one we are to be yoked with, as he says,...

Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.



"yoke"

G2218
ζυγός
zugos
dzoo-gos'
From the root of ζεύγνυμι zeugnumi (to join, especially by a "yoke"); a coupling, that is, (figuratively) servitude (a law or obligation); also (literally) the beam of the balance (as connecting the scales): - pair of balances, yoke.

[Gab]

The word, yoked, isn't outmoded and outdated.  It's farmer talk for a device which ties two beasts of burden together, like two oxen tied [yoked] together at the neck.  So you are under a type of servitude to what you are yoked with because you are tied to it and if it pulls in one direction, you'll be pulled along with it.  We are not to be unequally yoked--coupled with another who is walking in darkness--well, that's just good advice...

Jesus is the one we are to be yoked with, as he says,...

Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


"yoke"

G2218
ζυγός
zugos
dzoo-gos'
From the root of ζεύγνυμι zeugnumi (to join, especially by a "yoke"); a coupling, that is, (figuratively) servitude (a law or obligation); also (literally) the beam of the balance (as connecting the scales): - pair of balances, yoke.

It's outdated in the sense of a term for being placed under cruel and oppressive servitude.  Dictionary.com even goes so far as to calls that sense of the verb "obsolete".  Given that nobody I have ever encountered who used that verse to say that Christians should not associate with non-Christians actually knew what the word meant (a large percentage thought it was like an egg yolk or something), I think that that is an accurate descriptor, as I can't remember ever hearing that word in any form whatsoever outside of the Bible.

This is basically a non-KJV example of "understandeth thou what thou readeth?"  If absolutely no one understands what a word means, and yet they all use the verse in which it appears anyway to determine doctrine, then I think it's time to say, "Houston, we have a problem."  Language changes, and in my opinion, so too should translations, in order to ensure that everyone reading the Bible actually understands at the very least the bare text of each passage.