are we just pawns of God?

[NinjaWizards777]

Been discussing with this guy since last night, and we were talking about eph 2:8-9 I said:

The interesting thing about that verse is it says "grace...through faith. and this" this what? this grace? no...grace through faith..."is not of ourselves, its is a gift of God lest any man should boast". If i am wise and virtuous enough of my own "free" will to muster up the faith to beleive, that is very much a work. Because it is something Im doing interdependently of God. If faith is of myself, and not of God...then I very much have something to boast in.

If God doesnt harden peoples hearts, why does the bible say other wise in various places? Could it be that that is not the state that he plans to leave them in eternally? Could it be that without a chance to disobey God and temporarily expeirience evil...there is truly no way we could appreciate an eternity with the pinicle of all that is love and good(God)?

He said:

Trust is not given, it is earned, faith, being trusting in the unseen. You can lead a horse to water. . . being smart enough to put together idiot pieces of a puzzle that God laid out for us is like a 40 year old, educated man saying he has discovered for the first time in a western culture that yellow and blue make green. There is no boasting in accepting common sense. Even the most hardened idiot has to admit that at some point, something are beyond his ability to handle.

If God hardens peoples hearts, then we are pawns, tools for his amusement. I do not attempt to make my puppy hate specific people so I can show him how to love that hated person, that is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Let me train my dog, against his will, and my understanding of right, JUST so he will appreciate right better. . . oh, let's take my son on his 21st birhtday to a bar, get him smashed on 43 kinds of liquor so he appreciates being sober. While I am at it, I shall pump my son full of cocaine and meth, so he will appreciate being clean. That is not love, that is being foolhardy, mean, and down right disgusting. I don't care what greater cause you might be serving, you don't lead one to sin, or cause one to sin so they appreciate grace more. "No one should say that God is tempting me" and Satan had to ask permission to tempt Job. There are as many inconsistencies in your theory, except yours leaves God to be the mean kid treating us like cheap toys, where my theology has a loving God who allows you to make your choice, but desperately wanting you to follow the path He's laid out for you, rather than forcing you to love him.

Ive started formulating an answer in my head at least for some of the points, but I wanted to get some different perspectives before I did. How would you reply?

[WhiteWings]

His god is a god that keeps smashing his toys (creation) like a little boy. Our God fixes the toys.
His god only has 1 pot of paint. Black-death. Our God has a Son that keeps mixing red (His blood) with the black paint until it turns white.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Been discussing with this guy since last night, and we were talking about eph 2:8-9 I said:

The interesting thing about that verse is it says "grace...through faith. and this" this what? this grace? no...grace through faith..."is not of ourselves, its is a gift of God lest any man should boast". If i am wise and virtuous enough of my own "free" will to muster up the faith to beleive, that is very much a work. Because it is something Im doing interdependently of God. If faith is of myself, and not of God...then I very much have something to boast in.

If God doesnt harden peoples hearts, why does the bible say other wise in various places? Could it be that that is not the state that he plans to leave them in eternally? Could it be that without a chance to disobey God and temporarily expeirience evil...there is truly no way we could appreciate an eternity with the pinicle of all that is love and good(God)?

He said:

Trust is not given, it is earned, faith, being trusting in the unseen. You can lead a horse to water. . . being smart enough to put together idiot pieces of a puzzle that God laid out for us is like a 40 year old, educated man saying he has discovered for the first time in a western culture that yellow and blue make green. There is no boasting in accepting common sense. Even the most hardened idiot has to admit that at some point, something are beyond his ability to handle.

If God hardens peoples hearts, then we are pawns, tools for his amusement. I do not attempt to make my puppy hate specific people so I can show him how to love that hated person, that is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Let me train my dog, against his will, and my understanding of right, JUST so he will appreciate right better. . . oh, let's take my son on his 21st birhtday to a bar, get him smashed on 43 kinds of liquor so he appreciates being sober. While I am at it, I shall pump my son full of cocaine and meth, so he will appreciate being clean. That is not love, that is being foolhardy, mean, and down right disgusting. I don't care what greater cause you might be serving, you don't lead one to sin, or cause one to sin so they appreciate grace more. "No one should say that God is tempting me" and Satan had to ask permission to tempt Job. There are as many inconsistencies in your theory, except yours leaves God to be the mean kid treating us like cheap toys, where my theology has a loving God who allows you to make your choice, but desperately wanting you to follow the path He's laid out for you, rather than forcing you to love him.

Ive started formulating an answer in my head at least for some of the points, but I wanted to get some different perspectives before I did. How would you reply?

The way i see it is that God is omnipotent which means that basically people harden their own hearts, but God is everywhere and in everything so nothing happens without him allowing it or doing it in the first place.   Its hard to explain.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The problem has always been that man thought he could do a better job at everything, and we go around and around that mountain until we figure out you can't out-give God, or out-do Him. So, I'd rather be a pawn in His hands than a slave in the hands of Satan, any day. Been there, done that, it WASN'T fun, LOL. Blessings....

[NinjaWizards777]

Its hard to understand how individual choice works with a God that "works everything in accordence with His will". Its not that we dont have any choice, to love and serve God. But at the same time there is a limit as to what God will let us experience and "choose".

an analogy I thought of yesterday was that if I had a son who was drowning in the ocean, and I had the means to save him, it really doesnt matter to me at that point if he screams "NO!!!" because my love for his life and well being is greater than whatever ignorance he is undergoing to think that he can either save himself or that dieing would be better. And later my son will be glad and appreciative that I loved him enough to pull him out of the mess. In the same way, I think there comes a point where God values our eternal well being above our "free" will

I think that throws a monkey wrench in the whole "God wont force us to love him, hell just let us stew in our sin forever and suffer because of it" as some sort of demonstration of ultimate love

[jabcat]

His god is a god that keeps smashing his toys (creation) like a little boy. Our God fixes the toys.
His god only has 1 pot of paint. Black-death. Our God has a Son that keeps mixing red (His blood) with the black paint until it turns white.

Touching post.

[martincisneros]

 :happy3: No, we're not just pawns of God.  Some are rooks, kings, queens, knights, and bishops which correspond, though not in order, to the 5 fold ministry of Ephesians 4 :Sparkletooth:

:mblush: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess :mblush:

:2c:

[sparrow]

His god is a god that keeps smashing his toys (creation) like a little boy. Our God fixes the toys.
His god only has 1 pot of paint. Black-death. Our God has a Son that keeps mixing red (His blood) with the black paint until it turns white.

Touching post.

I agree.
That was one of those posts that you read it and suddenly you just get kinda still and all you can think to say is just a quiet little "wow."
Humbling and beautiful.

[aspiring son]

Ninja,

Maybe bring this up if you haven't already.

Wasn't God there with him when his heart was hardened? Didn't his past of sin help him appreciate the salvation of Christ? ( it might not, and that would be sad). Did'nt his past of a hardened sinful life lead to salvation? wouldn't that mean God was working in him the whole time for good?

Its hard to understand how individual choice works with a God that "works everything in accordence with His will". Its not that we dont have any choice, to love and serve God. But at the same time there is a limit as to what God will let us experience and "choose".

an analogy I thought of yesterday was that if I had a son who was drowning in the ocean, and I had the means to save him, it really doesnt matter to me at that point if he screams "NO!!!" because my love for his life and well being is greater than whatever ignorance he is undergoing to think that he can either save himself or that dieing would be better. And later my son will be glad and appreciative that I loved him enough to pull him out of the mess. In the same way, I think there comes a point where God values our eternal well being above our "free" will

I think that throws a monkey wrench in the whole "God wont force us to love him, hell just let us stew in our sin forever and suffer because of it" as some sort of demonstration of ultimate love

Good point. It's also like the saying that is used: "The holy spirit is a gentlemen. He will never force himself upon you."
I have found the spirit gentle in different ways, but NEVER heard of a gentle calling of the spirit on ones eternal salvation being rejected. If they don't respond, it's because they truly do not yet have the ears to hear!

What's more of a gentlemen-

a man sees a blind man about to step into rush hour traffic. He looks like he is going full stride without caution.

The first man drops everything and grabs the man by the arm and pulls him with all of his momentum back to the side walk.

The second man sees the blind man and says," Sir, I'm just letting you know I see cars! You might not want to..........

[martincisneros]

Roughest behaviour I've ever seen in my life, as far as firearm duels, sword fights, blood sports, and other tasteless acts were pursued and conducted by "gentlemen," i.e. someone's honor had been insulted, et. al.

:eek: :Shoot: :swordfight:

[peacemaker]

(http://dl7.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1501/1501957ywkikh8gcb.gif)

In the right circumstances, pawns can be very effective!

[jabcat]

The first man drops everything and grabs the man by the arm and pulls him with all of his momentum back to the side walk.

The second man sees the blind man and says," Sir, I'm just letting you know I see cars! You might not want to..........

Grab my arm, grab my arm!  We can talk later.   :mlaugh:

[jfraysse]

... where my theology has a loving God who allows you to make your choice, but desperately wanting you to follow the path He's laid out for you, rather than forcing you to love him.

Personally, I like this guy's theology! :thumbsup:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

[NinjaWizards777]

... where my theology has a loving God who allows you to make your choice, but desperately wanting you to follow the path He's laid out for you, rather than forcing you to love him.

Personally, I like this guy's theology! :thumbsup:

In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

Christanity LOVES to pretty up the whole idea of eternal damnation with phrases like "free will" and "choice". But making a "choice" under faulty information and preconceptions about what that choice entails, is really not so much a choice at all.

Its like a custom car shop asking me if I want tinted windows in my car, and I respond yes, because I do want them(and lets assume I think its legal because he fails to tell me otherwise.) When I get pulled over by a cop and get a fine for having them however, in hindsight thats not a choice I would have taken knowing the consequences. I chose something because I thought that was what I wanted, not being aware of certain facts about that choice to begin with.

thats not the best analogy but Im too lazy to be profound at the moment

[sheila]

  very good analagies guys. I was thinking of pawn shops

  where people wanting money instead pawn treasured family

heirlooms for whatever reason.Be it lack of material things or

lack of appreciation of it's true value. Pawn shops never give

you the true worth of anything pawned.Kinda like taking candy

from a baby.

  well, we know our Father has no creditors or debt to pay

and any prodigal children have but to return home

[ProgressvieDisciple]

I've always been interested in the logic behind us being "God's pawns', because such reasoning, while i believe un-intetionally so, completely ignores the exsisteance of satan.  After all, if we're God's pawns, is not the person acknowledging his exsistence, therefore confirming the exsistence of satan?  Notice how no one ever turns this question on its ear and ask " are we not all just satan pawns"?  They are both the opposite ends of the same  theological stick and u can't acknowledge one, without providing ground for the exsistance of the other.  So to be more to the point and very blunt: man without the presence of God is a beast, wicked, evil, deceptive, deceitful so whats in him to "harden"?   A hard ground can be soften by a gentle rain; but without it, the ground will produce nothing!  I'm not saying that there aren't any good non-christian people in the world because there are.   But ALL goodness leads back to God, just as ALL evil leads back to satan!     

[WhiteWings]

PD,

So to be more to the point and very blunt: man without the presence of God is a beast, wicked, evil, deceptive, deceitful so whats in him to "harden"?

Who created man that way? Is there any need for satan to exist if all evil is exxencially us?
=> Darkness is the absense of light.

A hard ground can be soften by a gentle rain; but without it, the ground will produce nothing!

But who determins if it does or doesn't rain...?
Doesn't God have enough rain to help out the pawns that need rain?

Who has the power to do anything and can't be overruled by anything?
Didn't satan in Job ask permission to hurt Job?
Who locked up people in disobedience?
What potter vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor?

I'm not saying that there aren't any good non-christian people in the world because there are.

I really doubt the majority of good people is Christian. How many Christians are there? I think less than 50 miljon.