Most Helpful UR material.

[Gary Amirault]

As I mentioned in another post, we are developing a new site which will focus on UR and the Abolition of Hell. What articles, books, audio, video material did you find most helpful in coming into the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ? What arguments cracked your box? What wisdom softened the fallow ground?

[WhiteWings]

For me: Hansons four works.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Gary for me it was hearing how the early Christians preached Universal Salvation, and also the argument that 'hell makes people conform and brings people to God', NO IT DOESNT!  Hearing God loves everyone and that im already saved made me respect and fear God much more than hell ever did.  I had no respect for him when I thought he would send most of his creation into hell...None at all, it just made me think he was manic and made me flee from him.
Also hearing the bible in its original tounge and also finding out what fire and brimstone means in the old Greek was a major breakthrough for me.

[rosered]

Thanks Gary ,
  you have alot of excellent  writings  and sites 
  I could not choose  just one or two
  I am amazed how  much you have ! some good stuff too
:HeartThrob:  rose

[Doug]

I have an html version of Winchester's Dialogues available at:

http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/winchester.html

Doug

(http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/Winchester.jpg)

[sparrow]

God somehow managed to drag me to the truth with just the KJV really. I had a near nervous breakdown worrying about everyone's souls. Reading MLK Jr's sermon "love your enemies" helped me to worry about the souls of my enemies. Then soon after I was praying for the likes of Hitler, Satan, etc. and then I just ended up one night on the floor of my shower curled up in a ball crying with every fiber of my being.

I remember one night reading the verses about what I thought was "the rapture". I was so distressed over this whole rapture thing. I felt bad for the people being "left behind" I didn't think it was fair. I thought it was just awful and I didn't want to be whisked away to safety.
I wanted to stay behind and help these people.
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." He met me where I was in my limited knowledge and all of a sudden I had this picture in my mind of all of the unbelievers rising FIRST to meet the Lord.. because they would be fearful because they had previously been NON-believers, so God was having mercy on them by letting THEM rise first to meet Him in the air.... and leaving us BELIEVERS because we would be strong enough to stay because we know of God's love and are confident that we will be ok. And the believers are witnessing this beautiful thing... of God basically leaving the 99 (us believers) and allowing the one (the lost sheep, the unbelivers) to meet Him in the air. And the believers (who were "left behind") are rejoicing, witnessing this. Seeing these people who were so lost, being FOUND by God.

That's what He put in my heart. That, I think was the beginning of the hope within and then His beautiful truth just flooded my heart. Like I said He met where I was in my understanding.
He showed me something ASIDE from perhaps what that verse was even talking about, to show me His love for ALL. He can use ANYTHING to make a point about His love. He really can.


My "near nervous breakdown" experience was very similar to Hannah Whitehall Smith's three chapters "The unselfishness of God and how I found it". Not being able to look at strangers anymore, without bursting into tears, etc. Right after it all came pouring through into my heart, (the salvation of all) and the blinders flew off, and I started reading all of the destruction verses through a new set of eyes...I found Hannah's experience online. It was so wonderful that here is this woman from the 1800's who went through the same thing as me. It was so just...amazing. And there was all sorts of little signs that led me to even look up this woman online in the first place. When I read what she had to say I was just SPEECHLESS.
I couldn't believe it.
He works in such wonderfully mysterious ways

[Beloved Servant]

There was no man-made formula for me either.
I was simply listening to the radio one afternoon when I heard a Sonship message from Peter Demetris.
The Lord immediately opened the ears of my spirit and that was it.

[HappyBoy!]

Quite a long list, but I needed things to tear down my old beliefs:

Charles Slagle - http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/once_saved_always_saved_slagle.html  A lot of his other writings are on another site.  I litteraly read his writings all night the night I came to believe God would reconcile all.
Rich Man and Lazarus - http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm


And to build up new beliefs:

Louis Abbott Video - http://www.tentmaker.org/video/givingglory/ggindex.htm. I actually download these, stripped the audio to MP3 and listened over and over.
Louis Abbot - Analytical Study of Words- http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/
A.E. Knock Book - The Problem of Evil... http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html

Also a Young's Litteral and a concordance to see if what they were saying was true.

[Paul Hazelwood]

As I mentioned in another post, we are developing a new site which will focus on UR and the Abolition of Hell. What articles, books, audio, video material did you find most helpful in coming into the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ? What arguments cracked your box? What wisdom softened the fallow ground?

Boy, that's a darn good question.   I'd have to say it was articles on L ray Smith's site that sent me down this path after being in an argument on the forum for the local newspaper here.

I pretty much rejected it out of hand,  just like I watch people do now.  But I kept going back because I was sure I could refute it.

Well, here was the dillema.  When it was all said and done,  I do not agree with some of Ray's material, I even objected a bit (hypocritically so) to the aggressive manner he almost always came across in his e-mails.

However, I could not refute the idea that Jesus was going to be successful in saving the world 100%.  Couldn't do it without simply building a case that the bible contradicted itself and I could not be honest and believe that either.   So I was stuck, LOL.

If there is one article I enjoyed the most it was this one.  It really brought to life how we are included in Gods family.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

[Gab]

To be honest, I think the first thing anyone needs to do is to give their conscience its due credit and not to elevate an interpretation of the Bible above it.  Even before I found any vindication of my position, there was always a voice in the back of my head telling me that a loving God is not a God who would torture his creation forever.  If you can't do this - if you are still in the frame of mind where you want or need to believe that humanity will burn forever in hell, especially if you think that the lack of such a belief will land you in that place - then no argument is going to have any effect, as you are still one whose heart is hardened against the truth.

Regarding which argument brought my reading of the Bible in line with my conscience, however, that would definitely be the argument regarding the meaning of aionion.  The biggest problem is that all of the most common standard-issue Bibles in circulation have the phrase "eternal/everlasting punishment" right there in plain view in Matthew 25:46.  If you can't combat that, then you have no Biblical leg to stand on, as without that anyone can just look in their Bible and point at that phrase, and you're hooped.

[sparrow]

To be honest, I think the first thing anyone needs to do is to give their conscience its due credit and not to elevate an interpretation of the Bible above it.  Even before I found any vindication of my position, there was always a voice in the back of my head telling me that a loving God is not a God who would torture his creation forever.  If you can't do this - if you are still in the frame of mind where you want or need to believe that humanity will burn forever in hell, especially if you think that the lack of such a belief will land you in that place - then no argument is going to have any effect, as you are still one whose heart is hardened against the truth.

Regarding which argument brought my reading of the Bible in line with my conscience, however, that would definitely be the argument regarding the meaning of aionion.  The biggest problem is that all of the most common standard-issue Bibles in circulation have the phrase "eternal/everlasting punishment" right there in plain view in Matthew 25:46.  If you can't combat that, then you have no Biblical leg to stand on, as without that anyone can just look in their Bible and point at that phrase, and you're hooped.

To the bolded I completely agree. A friend on another forum posted this:
"Imo, the only way to continue to believe in ET and see God as loving and maintain your sanity is never to ponder too deeply how the doctrine of ET fits together with the rest of your beliefs about God."

To which I totally agree and responded:

That absolutely sums up what the problem is with a lot of those who cling to the idea. They have not thought enough about it. They don't let it sink in. Because if they did, then they would go literally insane, or they would come to the end of theirself and reach out to God from a broken state and find the truth.

That is why debate is fruitless with them. They will go round and round and round and round because their belief is shallow they haven't FELT what they believe. Because if they are not willing to truly ponder just exactly what it is they believe in and TRULY look at it... then they will always have a very passionless, cold, response. Because of the wall built around their hell belief. They talk about it ad nauseum, but never really think about it.

No amount of debate in the world is going to crash through that wall. They need to tear their own walls down and look at the "hell" belief that is behind there. They need to truly meditate on it and let the horror of it sink into their minds and their hearts...THEN and only then is there any hope of them coming to the truth. We can always tell when someone hasn't actually explored their belief in hell. It's like a neon sign. We all know. Their capital letters and shouting and freaking out, sometimes is like the neon sign BLINKING! Because they KNOW what is back behind that wall....And when debating, it's getting closer and closer to them and they start to freak out. The bricks are starting to crumble a little and the freaking out is them in their mind hurriedly trying to grab the bucket of mortar and repair the bricks. The HEART can't handle it and the MIND knows this. Thus the need to keep the wall intact.

It's just the way it is. Seek and ye shall find.
Put "hell" up on a shelf in the back of your mind...
It will just sit there and sit there...
Take it down and look at it, ponder it, hold it in your hands and explore it, and that's when the walls start to come down and your heart will scream out and He's faithful and true and will ALWAYS answer and take your hand and lead you into His glorious truth. This is a fact. Each in his own time.
I'm not here to condemn anyone for their beliefs.
I understand and have a lot of compassion for my brothers and sisters.
We are all in this together.
If you hurt, I hurt.
The belief in hell... if a person isn't ready for those walls to come down, then it shouldn't be forced.
Just trust in God.
Always LEAN ON HIM.
HE will NEVER leave you.
EVER.
Let your heart not be afraid.

Also the MLK Jr. sermon "love your enemies" I posted earlier is helpful for those who cannot "accept" UR because there are people they "don't want to see in heaven". The human heart can be very dark. And sometimes must break through a lot of barriers before it finds truth. Some need to truly learn to LOVE their enemies, before they can even think about trying to understand UR.

There are many frozen hearts, frozen ground... but many are also entering Spring and their hearts are thawing and becoming fertile ground. Those who stumble upon Tentmaker....are truly blessed to have so many gardening accessories to help their heart along.  :HeartThrob:

Also, A person whom I just stumbled upon fairly recently, Charles Slagle. I have found a lot of his writings to be very raw and real. "gobbledygook gospel" and "The heavenly dog" are two articles that come to mind.

[Gab]

To be honest, I think the first thing anyone needs to do is to give their conscience its due credit and not to elevate an interpretation of the Bible above it.  Even before I found any vindication of my position, there was always a voice in the back of my head telling me that a loving God is not a God who would torture his creation forever.  If you can't do this - if you are still in the frame of mind where you want or need to believe that humanity will burn forever in hell, especially if you think that the lack of such a belief will land you in that place - then no argument is going to have any effect, as you are still one whose heart is hardened against the truth.

Regarding which argument brought my reading of the Bible in line with my conscience, however, that would definitely be the argument regarding the meaning of aionion.  The biggest problem is that all of the most common standard-issue Bibles in circulation have the phrase "eternal/everlasting punishment" right there in plain view in Matthew 25:46.  If you can't combat that, then you have no Biblical leg to stand on, as without that anyone can just look in their Bible and point at that phrase, and you're hooped.

To the bolded I completely agree. A friend on another forum posted this:
"Imo, the only way to continue to believe in ET and see God as loving and maintain your sanity is never to ponder too deeply how the doctrine of ET fits together with the rest of your beliefs about God."

To which I totally agree and responded:

That absolutely sums up what the problem is with a lot of those who cling to the idea. They have not thought enough about it. They don't let it sink in. Because if they did, then they would go literally insane, or they would come to the end of theirself and reach out to God from a broken state and find the truth.

That is why debate is fruitless with them. They will go round and round and round and round because their belief is shallow they haven't FELT what they believe. Because if they are not willing to truly ponder just exactly what it is they believe in and TRULY look at it... then they will always have a very passionless, cold, response. Because of the wall built around their hell belief. They talk about it ad nauseum, but never really think about it.

No amount of debate in the world is going to crash through that wall. They need to tear their own walls down and look at the "hell" belief that is behind there. They need to truly meditate on it and let the horror of it sink into their minds and their hearts...THEN and only then is there any hope of them coming to the truth. We can always tell when someone hasn't actually explored their belief in hell. It's like a neon sign. We all know. Their capital letters and shouting and freaking out, sometimes is like the neon sign BLINKING! Because they KNOW what is back behind that wall....And when debating, it's getting closer and closer to them and they start to freak out. The bricks are starting to crumble a little and the freaking out is them in their mind hurriedly trying to grab the bucket of mortar and repair the bricks. The HEART can't handle it and the MIND knows this. Thus the need to keep the wall intact.

It's just the way it is. Seek and ye shall find.
Put "hell" up on a shelf in the back of your mind...
It will just sit there and sit there...
Take it down and look at it, ponder it, hold it in your hands and explore it, and that's when the walls start to come down and your heart will scream out and He's faithful and true and will ALWAYS answer and take your hand and lead you into His glorious truth. This is a fact. Each in his own time.
I'm not here to condemn anyone for their beliefs.
I understand and have a lot of compassion for my brothers and sisters.
We are all in this together.
If you hurt, I hurt.
The belief in hell... if a person isn't ready for those walls to come down, then it shouldn't be forced.
Just trust in God.
Always LEAN ON HIM.
HE will NEVER leave you.
EVER.
Let your heart not be afraid.

Also the MLK Jr. sermon "love your enemies" I posted earlier is helpful for those who cannot "accept" UR because there are people they "don't want to see in heaven". The human heart can be very dark. And sometimes must break through a lot of barriers before it finds truth. Some need to truly learn to LOVE their enemies, before they can even think about trying to understand UR.

There are many frozen hearts, frozen ground... but many are also entering Spring and their hearts are thawing and becoming fertile ground. Those who stumble upon Tentmaker....are truly blessed to have so many gardening accessories to help their heart along.  :HeartThrob:

Also, A person whom I just stumbled upon fairly recently, Charles Slagle. I have found a lot of his writings to be very raw and real. "gobbledygook gospel" and "The heavenly dog" are two articles that come to mind.

I pretty much completely agree with everything you said there, especially about the thought that those who believe in ET likely have not thought about it much.  I think that anyone who is truly an empathetic soul and who has come to face the reality of what ET implies is either one who does not believe it to be true or one of the poor souls who committed suicide after finding it too much to bear.

(I include the qualifier of "empathetic soul" because I have met some sadly sick individuals who honestly do not even seem to care if the rest of the world burns as long as they've got theirs.)

I should state for the record that none of what I said above implies that I think that we should not tell others about the truly Good News.  I say it more just as a caveat that we should not expect anything we say to have any effect - or at least any immediate effect - on most of those we talk to.  Without the Holy Spirit and the unconditional love that it brings, no one can truly come to the truth, because belief in the truth requires more than just its presence; it requires a willingness and a desire to accept it as truth on account of space having been made for it in your heart.

[ducktapehero]

What arguments cracked your box?

The thing that got me believing in UR was my son. He did something wrong and I disciplined him and I got to thinking "Is there ANYTHING he could do that would make me punish him forever?"

At that very moment I knew that either God is evil or that NO ONE went to an eternal hell. Punishment is an unpleasant thing we do to our kids to teach them to do the right thing. It is temporary and it's done out of love. And it is proportionate to the "crime". If he runs into a parking lot that deserves a harsher punishment than if he doesn't eat his potatoes. 

But both are done to TEACH him. Eternal punishment is an oxymoron. If it's eternal it isn't teaching them, it's torturing them. Therefore it can't be punishment.

The reason I'm saying this is that if we can get people to look at their loved ones and ask themselves if they could allow them to be fried forever then I think that maybe they could see the fundamental flaw in the whole "Hell argument"

[Gab]

The reason I'm saying this is that if we can get people to look at their loved ones and ask themselves if they could allow them to be fried forever then I think that maybe they could see the fundamental flaw in the whole "Hell argument"

I wish that were the case, but I've interacted with some nasty fundamentalist Christians in the past, and that didn't work.  Their response is always, "They get what they deserve; anyone who does not go to heaven is not one with whom God would want me to associate anyway."

[Doc]

As I mentioned in another post, we are developing a new site which will focus on UR and the Abolition of Hell. What articles, books, audio, video material did you find most helpful in coming into the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ? What arguments cracked your box? What wisdom softened the fallow ground?

Oh, there were so many. L Ray Smith was the first one I stumbled across, and like Paul, I don't agree with everything he says, though he does have some good things to say. But I think one book that was good for "softening the fallow ground" as you put it, was Randy Klassen's book "What Does the Bible Really Say about Hell? Wrestling with the traditional view". It's a good, cautious and fairly 'theologically conservative' questioning of the traditional view of hell, leading the author to conclude that there is definitely a more inclusive wider hope pointed to in scripture. Reading through the book is quite a ride, leading you to think he's going to reach a different conclusion before the end. My only criticism of the book is that he doesn't come out and declare universalism to be true in the strong terms we'd perhaps like to see, but he definitely does an excellent and scriptural job of getting one to question the traditional view, which is a good place to start.

[ducktapehero]

The reason I'm saying this is that if we can get people to look at their loved ones and ask themselves if they could allow them to be fried forever then I think that maybe they could see the fundamental flaw in the whole "Hell argument"

I wish that were the case, but I've interacted with some nasty fundamentalist Christians in the past, and that didn't work.  Their response is always, "They get what they deserve; anyone who does not go to heaven is not one with whom God would want me to associate anyway."

I'm sure it wouldn't always work, but NOTHING will work for everyone. But the more ways we have someone look at the message the better. Although too much information can be counterproductive sometimes.

[WhiteWings]

Although too much information can be counterproductive sometimes.

....when organized badly I want to add.

For example it's quite possible to write a beginners article from wat even scholars can learn something.
On example mention aion means age. Back it up with 3 clear cut verses. Add a link to a 500 page article dealing with aion.
I really wish I count code webiste beyond standard HTML then I would have instantly volunteered to help out with the site.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

This was a great help to me (especially the parts i've highlighted in red).


Romans 2
God's Righteous Judgment
1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

    5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will repay everyone according to what they have done." [a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

    12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges everyone's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[dboutwell]

"Universalism And The Bible" was probably what started driving the nails down for me.
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm
Plus so many of the Tentmaker articles..

Debbie

[jabcat]

"Universalism And The Bible" was probably what started driving the nails down for me.
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm
Plus so many of the Tentmaker articles..

Debbie

Very good!   :2thumbs:

[WhiteWings]

I have an html version of Winchester's Dialogues available at:

http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/winchester.html

Doug

(http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/Winchester.jpg)

Do you have the html in .pdf/word format with the same layout?

[Doug]

I have an html version of Winchester's Dialogues available at:

http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/winchester.html

Doug

(http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/Winchester.jpg)

Do you have the html in .pdf/word format with the same layout?

http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/Winchesters_dialogues.pdf

Doug

[WhiteWings]

 :thumbsup:

[peacemaker]

I was born with a heart of flesh, not with fragments of earthly stone.
Coupled with the unending love of a four-legged friend; very inspirational!

[Raggedy Anne]

God somehow managed to drag me to the truth with just the KJV really. I had a near nervous breakdown worrying about everyone's souls. Reading MLK Jr's sermon "love your enemies" helped me to worry about the souls of my enemies. Then soon after I was praying for the likes of Hitler, Satan, etc. and then I just ended up one night on the floor of my shower curled up in a ball crying with every fiber of my being.

I remember one night reading the verses about what I thought was "the rapture". I was so distressed over this whole rapture thing. I felt bad for the people being "left behind" I didn't think it was fair. I thought it was just awful and I didn't want to be whisked away to safety.
I wanted to stay behind and help these people.
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." He met me where I was in my limited knowledge and all of a sudden I had this picture in my mind of all of the unbelievers rising FIRST to meet the Lord.. because they would be fearful because they had previously been NON-believers, so God was having mercy on them by letting THEM rise first to meet Him in the air.... and leaving us BELIEVERS because we would be strong enough to stay because we know of God's love and are confident that we will be ok. And the believers are witnessing this beautiful thing... of God basically leaving the 99 (us believers) and allowing the one (the lost sheep, the unbelivers) to meet Him in the air. And the believers (who were "left behind") are rejoicing, witnessing this. Seeing these people who were so lost, being FOUND by God.

That's what He put in my heart. That, I think was the beginning of the hope within and then His beautiful truth just flooded my heart. Like I said He met where I was in my understanding.
He showed me something ASIDE from perhaps what that verse was even talking about, to show me His love for ALL. He can use ANYTHING to make a point about His love. He really can.


My "near nervous breakdown" experience was very similar to Hannah Whitehall Smith's three chapters "The unselfishness of God and how I found it". Not being able to look at strangers anymore, without bursting into tears, etc. Right after it all came pouring through into my heart, (the salvation of all) and the blinders flew off, and I started reading all of the destruction verses through a new set of eyes...I found Hannah's experience online. It was so wonderful that here is this woman from the 1800's who went through the same thing as me. It was so just...amazing. And there was all sorts of little signs that led me to even look up this woman online in the first place. When I read what she had to say I was just SPEECHLESS.
I couldn't believe it.
He works in such wonderfully mysterious ways

Sparrow,  I am not at all surprised to learn that you were personally tormented by worrying not about your own fate but that of others. 
You seem like one of the most unselfish souls I've ever known.

My personal experience was similar to yours except that I did have the actual nervous breakdown and clinical depression from being convinced that God had a bad plan for the masses.

I had never heard of UR until the day I found the Tentmaker web site.   I was stunned that it seemed to have been kept a great secret from me all those many years.

Anne