Fire and Brimstone?

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Hi i found this online earlier...it seems more and more people are coming to a knowledge of universal salvation.

It sounds so 'fair' to me, and makes me appreciate God more, this was a real help to me, i hope it will be a help to others...





Tank Rumblings
Several years ago I was questioning why I am so insensitive sometimes; the Lord interupted my ponderings saying, "Remeber, Sherman, I made you a tank and tanks don't feel much." Wow, what a liberating concept; I'm ok in my limitations, even perceived limitations! Thankfully though, the Lord has put several "radio operators" in my life, people who are very sensitive to His Spirit; they help me stay on course. I hope my ponderings, my Tank Rumblings, will bless you.

Over the last several months I've been researching the doctrine called the "Restoration of All Things" or "Christian Universalism". It is, at its most basic, the belief that because of the sacrifice of Christ, all of humanity is ultimately saved and will ultimately come into relationship and life forever with Him. There are several scriptures that seem to indicate this is true. However, in order to "balance" what I had been studying on this, I decided to research scripture concerning Hell and Judgment. In my research though, I've come across information that is challenging my traditional Evangelical beliefs concerning the essence and purpose of punishment in the afterlife!

According to the doctrine that I have been raised to believe, the traditional Protestant/Evangelical doctrine, Hell is a place of "endless torture" for those who are not saved. However, I've run across information that seems to indicate that the traditional doctrine of Hell is incorrect, that the afterlife does not include a place of "endless torture".

As mentioned in the previous post, Jesus used the word GEHENNA in speaking of punishment in the afterlife. But the Rabbis of Jesus' day taught that GEHENNA was a place of purification of and payment for sin that only lasted as long as was needed for the healing and the reformation of the human soul. After a person was purified in GEHENNA, he was admitted to Paradise; but the English word Hell carries the connotation of "endless torture", so it is not a good interpretation of GEHENNA. Rather, the best interpretation of the word GEHENNA, I believe, is Purgatory.

But of course, GEHENNA is only one word used in scripture which references punishment in the afterlife. In my research of Hell, Judgment, and related words and scriptures, another very interesting bit of information came to my attention. It is the word "Brimstone", THEION in Greek. Notice how similar THEION is to THEIOS (divine). THEION, brimstone, actually means "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify and to ward off disease" (Enhanced Strong's Lexicon).

Thayer's Lexicon, Friberg's Analytical Lexicon, and Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon all agree that THEION is related to purification and healing. And Liddell and Scott notes that the verb THEIOO actually means "to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god." Thus, based upon the actual Greek usage of THEION, brimstone carries the connotation of purification and healing, and even signifies being made holy, set apart, dedicated to God; it does NOT connote "endless torture".

Brimstone - fire from heaven, lightening, volcanic bombs, and other geologic forms of fire give off the smell of burning sulfur. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire and brimstone, fire from heaven. Geologist Frederick Clapp theorized that Sodom's divine judgmental fire was likely a petroleum-based substance called bitumen, similar to asphalt, that was forced out of the earth through a fault-line, ignited by a spark or surface fire, and then fell to earth as a burning fiery mass bringing the judgment of God.

Furthermore, as noted by Strong's Lexicon, brimstone, sulfur was burnt as incense meant to ward off disease. Even today many medicines are sulfur-based. Thus brimstone is dynamically connected to healing.

Something else that I've never noticed before about the "lake burning with fire and brimstone" is that it is actually in the "presence" of God, not separated from the presence of God. Rev. 14:10 says that those who receive the mark of the beast shall "drink of the wine of the wrath of God" and "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

When I ran across this information about brimstone the first thing that came to mind was when Isaiah stood before the Lord and was overwhelmed by the sin that God's presence revealed in him (Isaiah 6). In the presence of the Lord and His angels, Isaiah cried, "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips!" In response to this confession an angel took a live coal (brimstone?) from the altar, put it to Isaiah's lips and purified him! Could it be that this is a picture of the burning purification of the Lord? I like Peterson's translation of this passage:

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Master sitting on a throne—high, exalted!—and the train of his robes filled the Temple. Angel-seraphs hovered above him, each with six wings. With two wings they covered their faces, with two their feet, and with two they flew. And they called back and forth one to the other,
Holy, Holy, Holy is God-of-the-Angel-Armies. His bright glory fills the whole earth.

The foundations trembled at the sound of the angel voices, and then the whole house filled with smoke. I said,
"Doom! It's Doomsday! I'm as good as dead!Every word I've ever spoken is tainted— blasphemous even!And the people I live with talk the same way, using words that corrupt and desecrate.And here I've looked God in the face! The King! God-of-the-Angel-Armies!"

Then one of the angel-seraphs flew to me. He held a live coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with the coal and said,
Look. This coal has touched your lips. Gone your guilt, your sins wiped out."

Thus considering that 1) brimstone implies purification and healing (not endless torture), 2) the "lake burning with fire and brimstone" is in the presence of God, and 3) God Himself is a Consuming Fire, the "lake burning with fire and brimstone could be, should be interpreted as "the Volcanic Lake of God's Consuming-Purifying-Healing Presence"!

Could it be that the traditional Evangelical doctrine of the afterlife for the wicked being endless fiery torture, unending punishment, Hell, be wrong? Could it be that the fiery punishment of the afterlife spoken of in the Bible is for our healing and purification, even for those with the mark of the beast? Frankly, the more I study what is actually written in scripture, the more I believe the answer to be yes! "Look. This coal has touched your lips. Gone your guilt, your sins wiped out!"
Posted by Sherman Nobles at 3:42 PM 

[Gab]

Very beautiful stuff - I remember when I first came upon the real significance of sulfur, many things all of a sudden took on such a completely different light.  One may note in all the scary pictures of hell that humans have put together that the sulfur part tends to be kind of brushed aside, or if included, tends to be treated just as something that vaguely sounds ominous.  Nothing could be further from the truth - it was selected purposefully and deliberately, just like everything else.

Along with sulfur, I've also come across some very interesting things regarding the "fire" side of things as well.  In short, I've found that it may, in fact, be the case that the Greek word pyr (fire) is a linguistic sibling of the Latin word purus, from which the English word "pure" is derived.  The Greek word pyroo (to burn) is used in the Septuagint to refer to the refinement of metals - that is, to make them pure.  The Encyclopedia Britannica has some rather interesting comments to be made about fire, as well:

"Fire is perhaps one of the most symbolically complex phenomena in the history of human culture. It renders raw meats and vegetables into cooked and edible food, base minerals into useful and durable metals, and porous dirt and clay into watertight pottery. It destroys the forests and brushlands, but its ashes make the earth fertile and productive. Fire is thus viewed as a powerful transformer of the negative to the positive. Because of such properties, fire is commonly found in purification rites throughout the world."

So, in short, it seems very likely that the lake of fire and sulfur could instead be referred to as "the lake of purification and divinity".  Couple that with the fact that those in said lake are in the presence of Jesus himself (Revelation 14:10) and it certainly seems to me to take on a rather different tone than what most try to give it.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Very beautiful stuff - I remember when I first came upon the real significance of sulfur, many things all of a sudden took on such a completely different light.  One may note in all the scary pictures of hell that humans have put together that the sulfur part tends to be kind of brushed aside, or if included, tends to be treated just as something that vaguely sounds ominous.  Nothing could be further from the truth - it was selected purposefully and deliberately, just like everything else.

Along with sulfur, I've also come across some very interesting things regarding the "fire" side of things as well.  In short, I've found that it may, in fact, be the case that the Greek word pyr (fire) is a linguistic sibling of the Latin word purus, from which the English word "pure" is derived.  The Greek word pyroo (to burn) is used in the Septuagint to refer to the refinement of metals - that is, to make them pure.  The Encyclopedia Britannica has some rather interesting comments to be made about fire, as well:

"Fire is perhaps one of the most symbolically complex phenomena in the history of human culture. It renders raw meats and vegetables into cooked and edible food, base minerals into useful and durable metals, and porous dirt and clay into watertight pottery. It destroys the forests and brushlands, but its ashes make the earth fertile and productive. Fire is thus viewed as a powerful transformer of the negative to the positive. Because of such properties, fire is commonly found in purification rites throughout the world."

So, in short, it seems very likely that the lake of fire and sulfur could instead be referred to as "the lake of purification and divinity".  Couple that with the fact that those in said lake are in the presence of Jesus himself (Revelation 14:10) and it certainly seems to me to take on a rather different tone than what most try to give it.

Gab...You reached me.   Thank you.

Reading all this Universal Salvation has certainly done one thing for me, its made me appreciated God more in many ways.  Im stuggling a lot lately with the Bible and actually almost threw it out last nite (NIV) Version because it makes NO sense whatsoever, its useless to me.  I very well might never read the bible again, and just follow the 2 important commandments as best i can and hope for the best, i feel like the guy in Ecclesiastes, who just got fed up of reading and trying to figure everything out, i think its time i just give up on all that stuff, because it just makes me unhappy.

Thanks for your post it was a great help, and its a great burden off of me now that i am starting to realise that God is fair.  Im still not looking forward to being purified though lol.

[Taffy]

Isa 30:33 For Tophet [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.  

:icon_flower:

[peacemaker]

The supposed explanation that Sherlock Holmes gave to his assistant, Dr. Watson, in films when explaining deductions he had made:

"Elementary my dear, Watson."

sulfur
 
Chemistry. a nonmetallic element that exists in several forms, the ordinary one being a yellow rhombic crystalline solid, and that burns with a blue flame and a suffocating odor

luciferin
   
A chemical substance present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms, such as fireflies, that produces an almost heatless, bluish-green light when oxidized under the catalytic effects of luciferase and ATP.

luciferase   

An enzyme present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms that catalyzes the oxidation of luciferin and ATP, producing light.

bioluminescence
  
the production of light by living organisms.

Any complex thing or system having properties and functions determined not only by the properties and relations of its individual parts, but by the character of the whole that they compose and by the relations of the parts to the whole.

peacemaker

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Isa 30:33 For Tophet [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.  

:icon_flower:

Taffy thank you, i love hearing these translations its all new to me, and starting to sink into my thick nut lol.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

The supposed explanation that Sherlock Holmes gave to his assistant, Dr. Watson, in films when explaining deductions he had made:

"Elementary my dear, Watson."

sulfur
 
Chemistry. a nonmetallic element that exists in several forms, the ordinary one being a yellow rhombic crystalline solid, and that burns with a blue flame and a suffocating odor

luciferin
  
A chemical substance present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms, such as fireflies, that produces an almost heatless, bluish-green light when oxidized under the catalytic effects of luciferase and ATP.

luciferase   

An enzyme present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms that catalyzes the oxidation of luciferin and ATP, producing light.

bioluminescence
  
the production of light by living organisms.

Any complex thing or system having properties and functions determined not only by the properties and relations of its individual parts, but by the character of the whole that they compose and by the relations of the parts to the whole.

peacemaker

Its too late at night here for me to understand this peacemaker lol! Ill read this 2morrow! Thanks.

[Gab]

Reading all this Universal Salvation has certainly done one thing for me, its made me appreciated God more in many ways.  Im stuggling a lot lately with the Bible and actually almost threw it out last nite (NIV) Version because it makes NO sense whatsoever, its useless to me.  I very well might never read the bible again, and just follow the 2 important commandments as best i can and hope for the best, i feel like the guy in Ecclesiastes, who just got fed up of reading and trying to figure everything out, i think its time i just give up on all that stuff, because it just makes me unhappy.

To be honest, I know exactly what you mean there.  I firmly believe that the person who simply looks into his or her conscience and meekly says, "I don't know how God could send people to eternal torment," knows orders of magnitude more about God than one who has memorized the entire Bible from cover to cover yet screams fearful hellfire and torment at his listeners.  As has been covered in articles here on Tentmaker, the Word of God is Jesus, not the Bible.  However important the Bible might be, the extent is simply epic to which it has been misused by people throughout history who meant well but simply did not understand deep in their hearts what it means for God to be love.

I think the Bible is a very useful instrument from which many important spiritual facts may be gleaned.  But I think many, just like the Pharisees of Jesus' time, elevate it above love - and thus, above God.  And no good will ever come from that.  As I said elsewhere, we know God through love, not through the plain text of the Bible.  The text of the Bible can very easily be mistranslated, misquoted, and misunderstood - whether purposefully or otherwise.  Love cannot.

I wouldn't say you should not read the Bible.  But, if someone presents you with an interpretation of the Bible that is plainly in conflict with your conscience and your understanding of love, then I would equally say you should not accept it unquestioningly.  That someone has quoted the Bible does not mean that that person is correct.

Thanks for your post it was a great help, and its a great burden off of me now that i am starting to realise that God is fair.  Im still not looking forward to being purified though lol.

Well, I personally believe that the "lake of fire and sulfur" as described is symbolic, not literal - the purpose of the imagery is to conjure up a place of purification and divinity, not to say that people will literally be thrown into a place of endless fire and sulfur.  If you want to teach your child the error of his ways, how much do you think he would learn if you lit him on fire?  Not very much, I would think.  And the same, I think, is true here: it would seem like a very poor way to attempt to chastise someone by throwing them into a literal lake of fire in which they writhe about in agony.  That's not a God who is love.

[peacemaker]

"His fire and brimstone converts, not the secular or worldly preaching."

peacemaker

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Reading all this Universal Salvation has certainly done one thing for me, its made me appreciated God more in many ways.  Im stuggling a lot lately with the Bible and actually almost threw it out last nite (NIV) Version because it makes NO sense whatsoever, its useless to me.  I very well might never read the bible again, and just follow the 2 important commandments as best i can and hope for the best, i feel like the guy in Ecclesiastes, who just got fed up of reading and trying to figure everything out, i think its time i just give up on all that stuff, because it just makes me unhappy.

To be honest, I know exactly what you mean there.  I firmly believe that the person who simply looks into his or her conscience and meekly says, "I don't know how God could send people to eternal torment," knows orders of magnitude more about God than one who has memorized the entire Bible from cover to cover yet screams fearful hellfire and torment at his listeners.  As has been covered in articles here on Tentmaker, the Word of God is Jesus, not the Bible.  However important the Bible might be, the extent is simply epic to which it has been misused by people throughout history who meant well but simply did not understand deep in their hearts what it means for God to be love.

I think the Bible is a very useful instrument from which many important spiritual facts may be gleaned.  But I think many, just like the Pharisees of Jesus' time, elevate it above love - and thus, above God.  And no good will ever come from that.  As I said elsewhere, we know God through love, not through the plain text of the Bible.  The text of the Bible can very easily be mistranslated, misquoted, and misunderstood - whether purposefully or otherwise.  Love cannot.

I wouldn't say you should not read the Bible.  But, if someone presents you with an interpretation of the Bible that is plainly in conflict with your conscience and your understanding of love, then I would equally say you should not accept it unquestioningly.  That someone has quoted the Bible does not mean that that person is correct.

Thanks for your post it was a great help, and its a great burden off of me now that i am starting to realise that God is fair.  Im still not looking forward to being purified though lol.

Well, I personally believe that the "lake of fire and sulfur" as described is symbolic, not literal - the purpose of the imagery is to conjure up a place of purification and divinity, not to say that people will literally be thrown into a place of endless fire and sulfur.  If you want to teach your child the error of his ways, how much do you think he would learn if you lit him on fire?  Not very much, I would think.  And the same, I think, is true here: it would seem like a very poor way to attempt to chastise someone by throwing them into a literal lake of fire in which they writhe about in agony.  That's not a God who is love.

Totally true Gab im with you all the way on this one.

[peacemaker]

"They merely changed the studying of the Scriptures into a nursery for breast feeding babies; and charged a fee."

Do not follow their ornament, having a diaper like pattern or outward display. Study for yourself!

peacemaker

[WhiteWings]

Well, I personally believe that the "lake of fire and sulfur" as described is symbolic, not literal

The ancient Rabbi's used it to purify a temple.
That was a temple of stone and wood. But why not a temple of flesh and blood...?

[jesushandsarekindhands]

All of this help on this website and in some others about universal salvation has really made me like this God...Really has got my attention...And really makes me want to please him.  When i first visited universal salvation websites i thought -
"Yeh right, universal salvation, i bet they have about 2 lines of scripture taken out of context to back it up", but i am very VERY wrong, and im so glad i was!  Because its somthing ive always inwardly believed to be true about God but found that the bible (as i read it) contradicted what i thought...It makes me think now maybe i have been wrong about God in so many other ways.

[WhiteWings]

i bet they have about 2 lines of scripture.

TWO? I must have overlooked one then  :sigh:

[WhiteWings]

It makes me think now maybe i have been wrong about God in so many other ways.

I think you were. As so many others.
As long as it are honest mistakes and you are prepared to change your opinion.....

[jesushandsarekindhands]

i bet they have about 2 lines of scripture.

TWO? I must have overlooked one then  :sigh:

LOLOL!

[jesushandsarekindhands]

It makes me think now maybe i have been wrong about God in so many other ways.

I think you were. As so many others.
As long as it are honest mistakes and you are prepared to change your opinion.....

Oh yes, but the universal salvation has actually made me fear and respect him even more belive it or not.  I dont want to fail him now.

[rosered]

Well, I personally believe that the "lake of fire and sulfur" as described is symbolic, not literal

The ancient Rabbi's used it to purify a temple.
That was a temple of stone and wood. But why not a temple of flesh and blood...?

Hey ,Hey ,Hey , Bro T aka WW!  :HeartThrob:

  The  temple    which you are ,, can be  compared to metaphorically  as wood  and stones
   stones being the hard hearts  of men and wood as fuel  for the fire 
the fire  meaning the wrath of men 
  it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
    to me it means literal humans  cannot  do this
  but the spirit and soul in a man  can  be conformed to   the Image of God though Christ Jesus ..  the one and only to  make all this new promise stuff come to pass  , or make it a real thing  going on  though we cannot literally see it , It is still happening .

  sorry didnt mean to hijack the thread ...
  hee hee
  carry on mates .......... :HeartThrob: rose

[WhiteWings]

Well, I personally believe that the "lake of fire and sulfur" as described is symbolic, not literal

The ancient Rabbi's used it to purify a temple.
That was a temple of stone and wood. But why not a temple of flesh and blood...?

Hey ,Hey ,Hey , Bro T aka WW!  :HeartThrob:

Hi SisRR

The  temple    which you are ,, can be  compared to metaphorically  as wood  and stones

Ok, Rose. My point was this; If brimstone is used for purifying in this realm then I think the fire and brimstone verses are about cleaning in the spiritual realm. (not torture) that was my only point.

sorry didnt mean to hijack the thread ...

Nothing wrong to say hi to your friend jack RoseY.
Except, perhaps,  when you are on a plane.  :icon_jokercolor:

[rosered]

Well, I personally believe that the "lake of fire and sulfur" as described is symbolic, not literal

The ancient Rabbi's used it to purify a temple.
That was a temple of stone and wood. But why not a temple of flesh and blood...?

Hey ,Hey ,Hey , Bro T aka WW!  :HeartThrob:

Hi SisRR

The  temple    which you are ,, can be  compared to metaphorically  as wood  and stones

Ok, Rose. My point was this; If brimstone is used for purifying in this realm then I think the fire and brimstone verses are about cleaning in the spiritual realm. (not torture) that was my only point.

sorry didnt mean to hijack the thread ...

Nothing wrong to say hi to your friend jack RoseY.
Except, perhaps,  when you are on a plane.  :icon_jokercolor:

LOL   !!   KAY ..  GOOD POINT INDEED !

  and your right about  that temple cleansing  :winkgrin:

its a real good thing ...