RULE OVER THEE?

[Loveroftruth]

Look what I found...........

In Genesis 3:16 we see that both King James versions state a man will RULE OVER HIS WIFE

Yet in that new Bible coming out "The Transparent English Bible" it say HE WILL RULE "WITH" HER!

Gen 3 16 Transparent English Bible (ORIGINAL BIBLE PROJECT BIBLE)
http://originalbible.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/ts_1genesis1-6.pdf

16 Toward the woman he said "Making abundant – I will surely make abundant your distress and pregnancy; in distress you will bring forth sons, and toward your man will be your craving, and he will rule WITH YOU

(KJ21)
16Unto the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

(KJV)
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Any insight?   :myahoo: :boydance: :Egyptdance2:

[Kratos]

Sounds like another attempt for man to come up with a "better idea' of how the world should be ordered.

John

[Loveroftruth]

New Bible Translation Project Under Way
By Gary Amirault

Dr. James Tabor, Professor of Biblical studies for the University of North Carolina, Charlotte, is well on his way to completing a new translation of the entire Christian Bible. He began the work in May of 1992 projecting a completion date of early 1998.

I had a telephone interview with him on October 30, 1995 to discuss his translation for the benefit of our readership. We will talk more about this translation in the future. In this short article, I just want to point out a few things which will make this translation unique.
49 Books instead of 66?

That's right! This translation will arrange the Old Testament in the same format as the traditional Jewish translations that consist of 22 books. The text will be the same. Books like 1Samuel and 2 Samuel will be combined.

Another major change will be the order of the New Testament epistles. To the Jew first and then to the Gentiles is the order of the earliest manuscripts. Therefore, Romans will have to take a back seat to James. The total number of books will be 49 instead of 66. That does have a better sound to it, doesn't it?

A well-done rough draft of Genesis has been sent to those who are supporting the project. The project is under the the title: The Original Bible Project.

Can we expect to receive any dramatic insights from this Bible that previous Bibles do not contain? One area in which we may receive some significant insight is the fact that Dr. Tabor has excellent connections with the work that has gone on with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Dr. Tabor spent a summer with some of the members of the Dead Sea Scrolls editorial team. Here are a couple of nuggets he dug up. He says:

"As most of you know, scholars were impressed with the amazing closeness between these copies of Scripture found in the Dead Sea caves and the traditional Hebrew text (called Masoretic), preserved by the Jewish scribes through the millennia. However, that is not to imply there were no differences whatever. Ulrich, Tov, and others have meticulously worked on this problem, painstakingly comparing every line, every letter, of all the various texts from the Dead Sea with the medieval Hebrew manuscripts. Their work has yielded some surprising and fascinating results. This summer I spent a week with Peter Flint, one of Professor Ulrich's students, who is now a mature scholar in his own right and also on the official Dead Sea Scrolls editorial team. Professor Flint works closely with Ulrich and Tov. We went over many of these readings. For example, take the text of Deuteronomy 32:8:

'When the most High divided the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people, according to the number of the children of Israel.'

This is the standard reading of the traditional Hebrew text, which we refer to as the Masoretic (MT). It is the basic translation that will be found in the King James Version. However, scholars have known for centuries that in the Septuagint (LXX) version, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible made in the 2nd century B.C., the last phrase reads quite differently.

'When the most High divided the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people, according to the number of the sons of God.'

Obviously, the meaning is quite different, and might even have some important theological implications. As it turns out, to the surprise of us all, the Dead Sea texts of Deuteronomy, which date from before the time of Jesus, agree with the Greek Septuagint version, against the traditional Hebrew text (MT)! In fact, the exact Hebrew of the Dead Sea texts is most interesting, it reads literally, 'according to the sons of El.' This divergence from the traditional text is rare, but when it occurs it is surely significant. This means that Jesus and the other Jews of the first century read copies of Deuteronomy that read 'according to the sons of El,' rather than 'according to the number of the sons of Israel.' Since the whole idea behind the Original Bible Project is to be just that, as original as possible in terms of text, order of the books, and accuracy of translation, this reading should certainly appear in our Bible, either as an alternative, if not in the text itself.

Another example comes from the all-important Chapter 53 of Isaiah, dealing with the Suffering Servant. The first part of verse 11 reads in the traditional Hebrew text, as reflected in the King James Version and most older translation:

    'He shall see of the travail of his soul, (and) shall be satisfied . . .'

Yet the literal Hebrew reads:

    'From the travail of his soul he will see . . .'

Clearly, something is missing here. A word has dropped out, or has been taken out deliberately by the scribes. As in the previous example, the Greek Septuagint appears to have preserved the original reading, and supplies the missing word: light. This has now been confirmed by the priceless Great Isaiah Scroll, found in Cave 1 at Qumran, which also supplies the word 'light' in the Hebrew! This means that verse 11, in Hebrew, originally read in 1st century manuscripts:

    'From the travail of his soul, he will see light..'

In the context, which speaks of the brutal death of this messianic figure, there is clearly a reference to his resurrection from the dead, a vindication that is already implied in the previous verse. (In another letter regarding this verse, Dr. Tabor writes, "I have speculated that the rabbis might have dropped this word in response to Christian polemics, since the Nazarenes would be trying to apply Isa 53 to Yeshua (Jesus) with the references to 'death,' 'grave,' and 'seeing light' as paralleling the 'death,' 'burial,' and 'resurrection' idea that Paul claims to find 'according to the Scriptures.)

I am not intending to give the impression that the traditional (Masoretic) Hebrew text is unreliable, or riddled with mistakes. It is certainly not, and the Dead Sea Scrolls have proven this. However, there are significant passages such as these which we surely will want to look at seriously in producing the Original Bible version."

I have seen a copy of the rough draft which Dr. Tabor has sent to those who want to support or follow the development of this work. It is loaded with interesting footnotes such as what we just covered.

In future issues of Dew, Father willing, we will write more about this project. Dr. Tabor invites those who feel that they have something to contribute to write him. There will be many other scholars working on this translation, once the skeleton has been finished.

Those of you who want to receive updated material on this project, or wish to support the work, are invited to write to:

Original Bible Project
408 South Pasadena Ave Suite A
Pasadena, CA. 91105

Oh, we live in such a fascinating time! There is just so much our Father is opening up to those who desire the things from above. Of course, if Hollywood, football, and End-time Any Day Rapture is your thing, you will probably not be interested in this kind of excitement. I feel greatly blessed to be able to look into these things. How about you?

[Loveroftruth]

Sounds like another attempt for man to come up with a "better idea' of how the world should be ordered.

John

John, I think the one we are questioning the KJ version, is that what you meant? From what I have read (Above) this seems to be a legit Bible?

[SeekerSA]

Hi LoT

I saw you were the only one to leave a comment on the Adam & Eve Curses thread.  John has shared on this in the past and lines up with Paul's teaching of wives submission.

The problem, like with most of the bible, man-made laws have been derived from literal interpretations.  There is however an authority in men that supersedes that of women particularly in the household.  Likewise, there are things woman are gifted with, we men cannot even begin to understand.  Needless to say, there is "they shall become one flesh" which in itself is more than procreation.  One flesh is one mindedness yet still within the headship of the husband.  When men try to do what woman were gifted for, we mess it up, likewise woman trying to do a man's thing also does not work out.

This unfortunately has gone in our cultures into the workplace and everyday living.  Nothing says a woman cannot be a boss/manager/CEO/President etc. in the workplace.  This is where gender equality is normal.  But, in the household and in the church, the ordination stands.  Hope this is not coming over MCP to you.

For women to be "allowed" to minister IMO is not up to men, it is up to God.  We see many heroines from the bible.  God is not a respecter of gender.

As for the scripture you quoted, pregnancy to replace conception does not work for me, maybe that part should be left to woman to translate

he will rule WITH YOU I would translate you will rule together.  Takes two to tango.

Blessings

[Loveroftruth]

Hi LoT

I saw you were the only one to leave a comment on the Adam & Eve Curses thread.  John has shared on this in the past and lines up with Paul's teaching of wives submission.

The problem, like with most of the bible, man-made laws have been derived from literal interpretations.  There is however an authority in men that supersedes that of women particularly in the household.  Likewise, there are things woman are gifted with, we men cannot even begin to understand.  Needless to say, there is "they shall become one flesh" which in itself is more than procreation.  One flesh is one mindedness yet still within the headship of the husband.  When men try to do what woman were gifted for, we mess it up, likewise woman trying to do a man's thing also does not work out.

This unfortunately has gone in our cultures into the workplace and everyday living.  Nothing says a woman cannot be a boss/manager/CEO/President etc. in the workplace.  This is where gender equality is normal.  But, in the household and in the church, the ordination stands.  Hope this is not coming over MCP to you.

For women to be "allowed" to minister IMO is not up to men, it is up to God.  We see many heroines from the bible.  God is not a respecter of gender.

As for the scripture you quoted, pregnancy to replace conception does not work for me, maybe that part should be left to woman to translate

he will rule WITH YOU I would translate you will rule together.  Takes two to tango.

Blessings

Seeker,

I guess what I am getting at is the two translations are OPPOSITES.

Rule over you is the opposite of Rule with you!

And from what I have been reading in Garys writings, the KJ had a lot of "Motivations" for how they translated things.

I have no problem seeing the man as head of the household and it would be very nice if men would rise up to really be that, this would allow woman to be who God really created them to be.

But I don't sense from His spirit that Men are to "rule over".... this seems to be more like what the cultural views where in how they viewed woman.

So, I guess what I am trying to do here is ask the question, could the KJ be wrong or tampered with or is this new translation false?

[SeekerSA]

Playing with words again

Gen 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, which shall reign over thee.

Gen 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire to thy husband, which shall reign.

Seed? Bride? Christ? Reign?

Blessings

[Taffy]

?

seed? Bride? Christ? Reign?

:thumbsup:

Jer 22:23 O inhabitant of Lebanon, that makest thy nest in the cedars, how gracious shalt thou be when pangs come upon thee, the pain as of a woman in travail!

Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

Blessings
Taffy

[Redlettervoice]

The "same" "deceived" at one time WOMAN "thru sorrow" brings forth finally a Manchild, after she has
birthed many children, or His nature. We are predestined to the adoption of His Nature, or His childen.
The "deceived woman" brought OUT of her deception thru His Mercy in giving her children, becomes
again HIS.  Until then part of her sorrow is "man" ruling over her.  She is not completely free. But whom
the son sets FREE is Free indeed.  For 18 years a "woman" was bowed low, but she touched the hem
of his garment, the woman with the issue of blood, losing her life with temporal rulers, our only hope
and trust is in HIM! Grace and mercy from above will form a chain of unity to put deception in its place
and it shall be no more. No more place shall be found for it.  For truth wil have swallowed up the lies
that Eve and Adam, the first adam, passed on to us.  And we shall be IN Christ, where there is LIFE
forevermore. And all things NEW.  Blessings. For I await just as you do. I have seen a lot, but it is not
enough til I awake in HIS likeness, which is the Second man, who is able to raise the dead. And by that
I do not mean casket, but a quickening spirit able to quicken to life what now resides in darkness.

[Loveroftruth]

Hey Friends :ty: :ty: :ty:

Are you all saying we no longer are to view any of this in the natural, only spiritual? :dontknow:

Graham, I know your answer :mrflo: :mrflo:

[Dean]

 :2c:

NO human CAN be the literal head of another.

No two human minds CAN literaly become ONE mind.

The traditional view that one sex is literaly meant to rule the other is false and in its practice has repeatedly proven to be abusive to God's greatest creation...human beings.

True leadership is SERVENTHOOD immersed in LOVE and not rigid LAW keeping based in FEAR.

Dean

[Dean]

The "same" "deceived" at one time WOMAN "thru sorrow" brings forth finally a Manchild, after she has
birthed many children, or His nature. We are predestined to the adoption of His Nature, or His childen.
The "deceived woman" brought OUT of her deception thru His Mercy in giving her children, becomes
again HIS.  Until then part of her sorrow is "man" ruling over her.  She is not completely free. But whom
the son sets FREE is Free indeed.  For 18 years a "woman" was bowed low, but she touched the hem
of his garment, the woman with the issue of blood, losing her life with temporal rulers, our only hope
and trust is in HIM! Grace and mercy from above will form a chain of unity to put deception in its place
and it shall be no more. No more place shall be found for it.  For truth wil have swallowed up the lies
that Eve and Adam, the first adam, passed on to us.  And we shall be IN Christ, where there is LIFE
forevermore. And all things NEW.  Blessings. For I await just as you do. I have seen a lot, but it is not
enough til I awake in HIS likeness, which is the Second man, who is able to raise the dead. And by that
I do not mean casket, but a quickening spirit able to quicken to life what now resides in darkness.

Thank you RED....outstanding!!!

[Taffy]

Graham, I know your answer :mrflo: :mrflo:

:myahoo: :myahoo: :myahoo: :egyptdance: :egyptdance: :egyptdance: :boydance: :boydance: :boydance: :goodone:


Blessings Kiddo :icon_flower:
Taffy

[Kratos]

LOT,

I do believe that the KJV is the one that translates this verse correctly and the new Bible you are discussing is changing the Word to make it more palatable to modern American believers. There are just too many confirming scriptures to deny that their is an order in the marriage relationship. God orders His Kingdom in order to establish it with righteousness and judgment. There is order in every relationship for those who have ears to hear.

This being said, I do not think that one person being placed over another in a marriage is the point, but it is the Word. A perfectly ordered society or home is not the end product that God is after. But it is a means to His end. The spirit of this world is that we are all independent and, especially Americans, hate to submit to anyone else. Yet, submission to authority is the foundation on which the Kingdom is established.

God could have controlled the whole world through His power, but He chose to rule it by His authority to teach His Sons to recognize and adapt to over and under positions. Again, this is a means to an end.

In the fall, man's soul exalted itself over God's Spirit in order to be like Him through rebellion. Jesus came to "reverse the curse" by proclaiming that He never did anything of Himself, but only did what His Father told Him to do. Jesus revearsed what the first Adam did. The first Adam exalted His place over God's rightful place as authority. Jesus came and humbled Himself and became obedient and denied Himself.

God's purpose is not to just deliver us from judgment as the traditional church teaches, He sent Jesus to set us an example and to encourage us in Him to let His mind be in us also. His faith is that we would deny the nature of the first Adam to exalt ourselves over the place that God gave us and to identify with and be conformed to the Last Adam by accepting the place that God gave us willingly in His Kingdom.

The marriage relationship is just a tool to train the soul to submit to God's Spirit. There are just as many men who do not want to lead and be the head of their home as there are women who do not want to follow their husband's headship in submission. It is about accepting the place that God has given us in each situation and to die to ourselves and submit to God.

Just because husbands being over wives is not the ultimate purpose in God, it changes nothing about it being one of His chosen means to His end and as dear children we should die to what seems right according to our understanding from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and accept with a good heart the Tree of Life revealed in His Word.

These orderings of God are just for this present age and I do not think that they will carry into the ages to come. But, whether we remain like Lucifer believing that we know better than God how things should be done or are like Christ and only do what God reveals that we are to do will reveal our level of Sonship.

I often discern truth by the ditch on either side as this is how God teaches me principles. It would seem that the ditch on one side is to miss the spiritual application that over and under is about spirit and soul. But, the ditch on the other side would be to try to throw out the means that God has chosen to accomplish His end of our souls being submitted to His Spirit. Our Father really does know best and husbands ruling over their wives and wives submitting to their husbands takes much dying to self on both sides and this is very good for our spiritual condition.

It is no different than workers submitting to bosses or citizens submitting to governmental authorities. Yet, this one in marriage seems to rile the most feathers. It is about our souls learning submission by having to yield to God's right to choose who is over and who is under when we know that the one over is not necessarily the more intelligent or the most spiritual. It is about God's right to choose and not about the good or evil of the one chosen.

Rom 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5  Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Making it about men and women is a big mistake in my opinion. It is about all of us and God. Either it is what He has chosen or it is about what we think is right. Two different trees with two different results.

John

[SeekerSA]

Hey Friends

Are you all saying we no longer are to view any of this in the natural, only spiritual?

Hi Loveroftruth

For me it is strange, just like Genesis and Revelation are first and last, alpha omega, the more I read Genesis, the more layers I discover.

To a degree I agree with John but we all know in the KJV which most of us >40 grew up with, there are errors and I am of the opinion although I cannot prove it, that the 1611 version did have bias.

Not being a Greek scholar, I read many translations on difficult or mindset verses then go back to the KJV and see how alternate renditions are possible with Strongs.  If the HS reveals a better Enlgish word(s) then I play with it and see what comes out.  I am not trying to get scripture to fit my beliefs but see if it were translated differently, would the message change or not.

The best translation is the Reading the white article that Gary has (click link) and the Holy Spirit ultimately needs to reveal the hidden message(s)  We only have what we read and what other claim about the dead-sea scrolls so we are still getting that info 2nd hand in the secular sense.

If people only hold to what is taught to them as truth, then again they are open to the bias of that person.  The Holy Spirit has no bias and if we are really open to truth, there are layers upon layers He can reveal.

Blessings

[Kratos]

Seeker,

A couple of thoughts on translators.

(1) I think that we sometimes are naive when we give translators the benefit of the doubt as to their intensions always being pure. It is interesting that some of the harshest words that Our Lord spoke were to the "scribles and the Pharasis". We hear a lot of warnings to not be a Pharasis, but why does no one seem to wonder why Jesus was so critical of scribes. Are not scribes those who would copy the scriptures from one copy to another? Here is an interesting verse about man's naivitee concerning their supposed wisdom without questioning the motives of the scribes.


Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely.

It would seem that the Lord knew that a lot of the lies of the enemy would be wrought at the hands of the unrighteous scribes. These are men pleasers that were more concerned with maintaining the status quo and the power of Nicolaitans to control the masses than with being faithful to God's Word.

(2) I spent a lot of years traveling in Africa and teaching the Word to different peoples in different languages. I found that it was critical that I chose a translator that was also called and filled with the Holy Spirit or the Word that I delivered definately lost something in the translation. You have to really know God and have your mind and heart yielded to His Spirit or you cannot be used of God as a faithful translator. I would choose an uneducated man with poor English skills over a college trained linguist because God's Word is Spirit and life and not just maticulously translated language.

John

[SeekerSA]

Hi John

I agree with what you have just posted.  I still say even in a modern translation, there may be bias as you intimated to suit a new mind-set.

This topic is now being discussed in multiple threads in one way or another.  At the end of the day, there has to be sound doctrine.  It would be interesting to see how this new translation renders Paul's teaching of the household and the order within the church.

Many have misinterpreted these texts and created false doctrines.  I can empathise with ladies that feel their participation in the body has been suppressed.  I have also seen lady teachers that do not have the covering of a "man" and are introducing teachings IMO that contradict the word, but I have to concede it may also be a male/traditional bias.

The problem with many views today, the woman is seen as a "weaker" vessel as it was Eve that was deceived.  On TM there are views that Adam and Eve represent more than male/female and I can go along with those renditions.

At the end of the day, the Holy Spirit remains our teacher and what He reveals to us we can hold onto. 

I think you and I agree, we just say it differently.

Blessings

[firstborn888]

Look what I found...........

In Genesis 3:16 we see that both King James versions state a man will RULE OVER HIS WIFE

Yet in that new Bible coming out "The Transparent English Bible" it say HE WILL RULE "WITH" HER!

I agree that the KJV got this right, but this order was definitely a curse which is broken in Christ. Jesus revealed that being the 'head' means being a servant and laying your life down for those whom you serve, not having domination over another person. It really means the exact opposite of what the male ego wishes that it means.   :mshock:

[Dean]

Hey Friends :ty: :ty: :ty:

Are you all saying we no longer are to view any of this in the natural, only spiritual? :dontknow:

Graham, I know your answer :mrflo: :mrflo:

I use to practice Orthodox submission which is IMO, based upon law and false beliefs. I was rigid and close minded...filled with ambitions to be a big shot in the organized church. My ambition was fueled, in part... by what I thought God's hierarchy was. I was validated in my head as I climbed the rungs of that supposed Godly heiracy, but I was a mess in my heart. I have discovered that applying material solutions to spiritual problems...like pride, arrogance, fear, self centeredness, dishonesty... does not work, they did not work then and they do not work...in the NOW.

In my view...the immense problem of humans exercising control over others is enabled by Religions rigid false material beliefs concerning submission and authority. True Scriptural submission happens only through a MOTIVE given by God that is found in SERVICE and LOVE. Love requires NOTHING...desires NOTHING...needs NOTHING in return for its being given. For me, trying to apply the Orthodox requirements connected to submission and authority were not centered in a motive from love...but from ambition and fear.

Getting all tangled up again in that bondage where I needed pay backs and kept score in my head for deeds done and not done, being properly submitted to and submitted towards is a pig pen of stink I do not wish to return to.

IMO, submission is not needed to happen where love IS...because it IS happening.

Dean

[Kratos]

I agree with what has been added and my wife would be the first to tell you that her submission to me is a joy and not a burden because I do love her and I do lay down my life to serve her.

It is funny that every time this subject comes up, everyone wants to correct what isn't being said. No one is controlling or dominating anyone here so why assume that we are? I know that the cliche of throwing out the baby with the bathwater gets old, but it certainly applies hear.

Some want to use the scriptures to dominate and control others and this is wrong.

Others want to dismiss or throw out or explain away the scriptures which is equally wrong IMO.

The true balance is to keep and obey the Word, but to do it through the Spirit and not in the flesh or the soul or through the letter of the Law.

Like Firstborn said, the Word is clear that a husband has been made the head over his own wife in the domestic relationship. But, Eph. 5 tells us how this is to be carried out. It is like Christ is to the Church who loved her and gave His life for her.

So, does anyone want to take the stand that we are equal Heads with Christ in the Church? Of course not though many act like it. He is undoubtedly the Head of the Church which is His Bride. Does anyone feel controlled or dominated by Him? No, but He is none the less our Head. You mean someone who lives in the Spirit can be the Head over another and not do it in the flesh and it be a blessing to those under Him? I can testify that it is a blessing for Him to rule over me because I know that He loves me and gives His life for me and that Our Father has placed Him there.

So, I for one, will not exalt myself over the Word and say that my wife and I are co-heads in our marriage. I will acknowledge God's right to set our order in His Kingdom. But, I will rule and she will submit in the Spirit and not in the flesh or in the soul. I will follow Christ's example of a spirtual head and she will follow the true churches example as a chaste bride.

It really does work when both parties are spiritual and have no agenda other than obedience to the Lord. I don't want to change the Word to what I think would be better because it has been done wrong by so many. I just want to be taught by the Spirit as to how to do it right.

One of the reasons that the Church today has such a hard time with serving Christ as Lord as we no longer understand the husband and wife relationship as God established it for our example. Pastors all over America act like they can do what they want without submitting themselves to the Head of the Church because Headship has become a dirty word in most peoples vocabulary. Satan has succeeded in teaching us that co-equal husbands and wives is a better idea today which has taken away the purpose of the type. It is the same with knowing the Father. Satan has worked so hard to remove fathers from the homes so that no one grows up knowing how to relate to one. The real is CHrist and the Church, but the type in natural marriages has been given for our instruction into the ways of the Kigdom and they need to be preserved.

John

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I was blessed by God to be led to a conference with some Messianic rabbis in a  the year the one translation of the Dead Sea Scroll fragment that revealed the "son of God" was mentioned in Isaiah, but taken out several hundred years later due to the Jewish leaders wanting to hide the fact that One did come and claim to be His Son, a concept they were well aware of during the scrolls time.

You could have heard a pin drop, as one Messianic rabbi read from a photocopy of the original fragment that he had obtained from the scholar that translated it (the scholar then had to go into hiding because the orthodox Jews put a million dollar bounty on his head).

After reading it he then said to the people present that day........"Do you realize what this means? This means our own people, not the gentiles, lied to us."

There was weeping in the room as that realization set in. There were many Messianic rabbis from all over the world there that year, as God had been bring them in about 5 years before, and several said they had had death threats and bounties placed on them also; one had his Messianic synagogue fire-bombed. It is a sobering and humbling thought to know that there are literally people out there willing to die for their belief in Messiah. Blessings to you........

[gatheredfragments]

woman is (soul)  man is (spirit) metaphysically/supernaturally by symbolism

the soul/flesh must submit to the spirit/will of God

it could be called a curse because the spirit (all of ours) have been confined in flesh and have to deal with it in the first place

the soul argues its wants (woman) is ruled over...(disciplined?) (as in rules that guide and teach right behavior?) (spiritual truth)

the spirit (man) is 'cursed'..(troubled) to tend the soil/earth/land (soul?)(woman)...
and suffers the consequences of what it does TO till it...what it plants...how it nutures it...

we do this within ourselves...
but marriage (between male and female human beings) is the ulitimate example of proving unity.

the bride must have her lamps trimmed and ready for the groom...she is disciplined to receive him. 

as a law of marital powers...i don't see this verse as useful, but as united power in Christ...the two harmoniously are glory to God.

[Cardinal]

(2) I spent a lot of years traveling in Africa and teaching the Word to different peoples in different languages. I found that it was critical that I chose a translator that was also called and filled with the Holy Spirit or the Word that I delivered definately lost something in the translation. You have to really know God and have your mind and heart yielded to His Spirit or you cannot be used of God as a faithful translator. I would choose an uneducated man with poor English skills over a college trained linguist because God's Word is Spirit and life and not just maticulously translated language.

John

:cloud9: That blessed me John.......that tells me a lot about the person who's selecting the translators........ :thumbsup:

[Kratos]

Why thankee, M'am. (with a tip of the hat).

John

[Craig]

Look what I found...........

In Genesis 3:16 we see that both King James versions state a man will RULE OVER HIS WIFE

Yet in that new Bible coming out "The Transparent English Bible" it say HE WILL RULE "WITH" HER!

Gen 3 16 Transparent English Bible (ORIGINAL BIBLE PROJECT BIBLE)
http://originalbible.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/ts_1genesis1-6.pdf

Well this is the curse being given to Eve.

It actually says,

Unto the woman, He said, "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you  shall bring forth children; and your desire [shall be] to your husband and he shall rule...."

Was it a curse, or an instruction?

Here is some other translations.

NET ©

To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase 1  your labor pains; 2  with pain you will give birth to children. You will want to control your husband, 3  but he will dominate 4  you."

NIV ©

To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

NASB ©

To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

NLT ©

Then he said to the woman, "You will bear children with intense pain and suffering. And though your desire will be for your husband, he will be your master."

MSG ©

He told the Woman: "I'll multiply your pains in childbirth; you'll give birth to your babies in pain. You'll want to please your husband, but he'll lord it over you."

BBE ©

To the woman he said, Great will be your pain in childbirth; in sorrow will your children come to birth; still your desire will be for your husband, but he will be your master.

NRSV ©

To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."

NKJV ©

To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."

I think the context says it is a intrinsic negative, so rule 'with' seems far from a curse and does an injustice to the point being made.

That curse of course, is removed in the NT, when Jesus died and and rose again. Man nolonger rules over his wife, but rules with, in harmony, reconciled to proper relationship 'with' each other. Paul makes this clear in Ephesians 5.