Open quarrels about universalism – is it wise?

[sven]

I asked myself is it wise to present universalism, the way as it happens for example at city-data, is it wise to take part in a hot debate with people who have different opinions?

Wouldn't it be wiser just to present what we believe without partaking in fruitless debates, we can provide much scriptural support and prove that many words have been mistranslated, if anybody claims different, why should we bother? – It has been a controversial topic since the New Testament was written I suppose, and maybe even earlier.

The doctrine of hell of course is damnable, but those who question it and investigate will find out that it's hardly scriptural, and those who seem to enjoy the idea of hell, you can't argue with them, not to mention that most of them lack the knowledge for a scholarly debate, so which benefit is therein?

What are your opinions?

[WhiteWings]

Usually the line of reasoning is that the one who backs of has lost.
Read they debunked UR.
OTOH the debate will never end....


The other question is do you want to convince a die hard that will never listen or do you want to make the moderate reader think about UR?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Sven...  :cloud9:

I asked myself is it wise to present universalism, the way as it happens for example at city-data, is it wise to take part in a hot debate with people who have different opinions?

Wouldn't it be wiser just to present what we believe without partaking in fruitless debates, we can provide much scriptural support and prove that many words have been mistranslated, if anybody claims different, why should we bother? – It has been a controversial topic since the New Testament was written I suppose, and maybe even earlier.

The doctrine of hell of course is damnable, but those who question it and investigate will find out that it's hardly scriptural, and those who seem to enjoy the idea of hell, you can't argue with them, not to mention that most of them lack the knowledge for a scholarly debate, so which benefit is therein?

What are your opinions?

People will "believe" in what they believe, irregardless of the TRUTH... The TRUTH is not something that MEN can gain OF THEMSELVES...

TRUTH is revealed at the will of God, not by OUR presentation of it... If we present the TRUTH, then His will is seen to be IN ACTION -- within OUR ACTIONS...

The JEWS were shown JESUS by God... but BLINDED by HIM as well...

JESUS is the TRUTH -- John 14:6 -- and NO MAN CAN [is able to] come to Him, except the FATHER [YHVH] draw him TO the TRUTH -- John 6:44 & 65

This does not mean we should abstain from delivering it to ears... If you are so moved, ...just do so, and leave it to GOD which of those ears "shall hear"...

It is easy NOT to respond to arguement --- just don't respond.  :dontknow:

My  :2c: bro...

willieH: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[Shadow]

I asked myself is it wise to present universalism, the way as it happens for example at city-data, is it wise to take part in a hot debate with people who have different opinions?

Wouldn't it be wiser just to present what we believe without partaking in fruitless debates, we can provide much scriptural support and prove that many words have been mistranslated, if anybody claims different, why should we bother? – It has been a controversial topic since the New Testament was written I suppose, and maybe even earlier.

The doctrine of hell of course is damnable, but those who question it and investigate will find out that it's hardly scriptural, and those who seem to enjoy the idea of hell, you can't argue with them, not to mention that most of them lack the knowledge for a scholarly debate, so which benefit is therein?

What are your opinions?

I was thinking the same thing myself, it's like running around in circles, they don't want to see it and there are certainly those that enjoy the idea of hell, or are just plain indifferent to it (after all as long as I'm all right, Jack - it never applies to them so what do they care)

I think these debates are an exercise in futility, and about as effective as flogging a dead horse, so I no longer take part in them

The existing threads do have some benefit though, as not every christian heart is filled with joy unspeakable and full of glory at the thought of ET, so when they see evidence and arguments that doesn't support it, I'm sure they are only too happy at the thought that their could be something far greater than the grim prospect of so called good news gospel of the hardcore eternal torturists, that will find any means and loophole wherever possible to try and defend their beloved doctrine

I've seen a couple of ETers turn quite nasty and they have the unmitigated gall to call those who truly yearn for the salvation of all, ravenous wolves, pharisees, judgmental etc, ETers are masterminds at twisting things and accusing everyone else of what they are doing, being 2 faced judgmental hypocrites

The way I see it is like this

Pascal wager UR vs ET

If the ETer is right

They get to heaven, but whats even more wonderful for them is that they get to wag and point their fingers at all the people they have condemned including the UR's (which no doubt would fill their hearts with such joy unspeakable)

If the URer is right

Unlike the ETer that excludes everyone except for those that think like themselves, the ETer will still get into heaven, but they will find themselves in front of God having to explain why many people were driven away from God because they slandered His name, and portrayed Him to be a monster that had no intention of saving the vast majority of mankind, the Eter may be subjected to a harsher judgment, but lucky for them it won't be nearly as bad as the judgment they proclaimed on the vast majority of mankind, who they couldn't have cared less about

I'm sorry if I sounded scathing, but I hate the eternal torture doctrine with a fiery ending passion and with every fibre of my being, I loathe it more and more with every passing day, in fact I hate this doctrine so much I could even end up really loving the ETers, even although they drive me nuts with their dim narrow minded views

[Tim B]

While, at many times, I think debating with people is simply wasted breath, I know that, for me, thoughts outside of the ET camp is what God partly used to bring me to UR.

For instance, when my philosophy teacher (who I believe is an atheist) asked, "What's the point of eternal damnation?" I began to realize: there is no point!

Part of what I think is meant with the phrase, "Let them who have ears to hear, hear, and those that have eyes to see, see" is that unless someone is open for a change in their thoughts/hearts, it's a waste of time to discuss/debate with them. Basically, I think the phrase means: those that are open for change will find change; those who aren't, will not.

Basically: debates are good for those that listen in.

[jabcat]

I believe for the most part, seeing UR is a revelation.

We are told to "charge these things and teach" (I Tim. 4:11), and to contend for sound doctrine.  PERSONALLY, I believe that means say it, maybe say it again/explain it, but that there's a line to cut short of arguing/debating.  I believe a wrong spirit can enter in, we can exhibit a bad attitude/poor witness if not careful (done it) and "our good can be evil spoken of".  I believe the Holy Spirit prompts both when to tell and when to stop.

[peacemaker]

If you could reason with religious people, would there be any unreasonable people?

"I came with an open heart and was spat on; forgive me, if I don't return."

peacemaker

[WhiteWings]

Nice quote that is interpreted as: He ran out of arguments. We have debunked his heresy.

[eaglesway]

    2Ti 2:23-26  But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.  (24)  And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,  (25)  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;  (26)  And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
     
    Jas 3:13-18  Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.  (14)  But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.  (15)  This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.  (16)  For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.  (17)  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.  (18)  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

   I think that we ought to engage whenever possible the discussion regarding universal reconciliation. The false teaching of eternal hell is a huge black mark on the way unbelievers perceive the gospel. I really care more for the gospel to the lost than debating Pharisees, but even the Pharisees had some who believed. What I notice is that when it reaches the point where it is not carried out in a spirit of reconciliation....it isn t worth much. We carry a message that is about the ministry of reconciliation. If we carry it in striving and hostility we can be pretty sure that the spirit of revelation will not flow through our words. The first thing is walking in His ways. Knowing what spirit we are of. We can be firm while still walking in the meekness of wisdom and the gentleness of the yoke of Christ's nature.
 
   There is a often a spirit of strife and debate even among the various proponents of UR concerning different aspects of the message. The sheep know His voice, and follow in His ways. Goats are always butting heads no matter what their theology.

     If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship(koinonea-oneness, union, harmony) with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. 1 Jn 1:7

     Is it possible to understand all prophecy and every mystery but walk contrary to His purpose?  Absolutely.

    John 17:20-23  `And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me;  (21)  that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.  (22)  `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;  (23)  I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.

    Surely the ministry of reconciliation is the first priority, if we stay in the spirit of reconciliation we will be successful reconciling men unto God. If we are carnal, hostile, and contentious, what we know and teach isn't really fruitful.

     At the bottom line, the gospel is a revelation of Jesus through those who walk in His Spirit. If we lack the discernment to know when we are moving into strife and contention, we just show our immaturity.

[peacemaker]

Nicely stated, Eaglesway! :goodpost:

peacemaker

[peacemaker]

Nice quote that is interpreted as: He ran out of arguments. We have debunked his heresy.

Sitting on the bench, may prevent injury to others.

[WhiteWings]

Nice quote that is interpreted as: He ran out of arguments. We have debunked his heresy.

Sitting on the bench, may prevent injury to others.

I'm sure there is wisdom in those words  :thumbsup:
But I don't understand it then  :thumbdown:

How can the word be spread if "we" keep is secret by sitting quietly on  a bench?

[Raggedy Anne]

I think heated debate ought to be avoided because it causes strife and anger and bitterness to get a foothold.   If someone wants to discuss the topic reasonably, that is fine.  But verbal 'fist fights' are ungodly.

Anne

[Raggedy Anne]

[quote = "Whitewings"]
How can the word be spread if "we" keep is secret by sitting quietly on  a bench?

I think it is not that we must be quiet, but that we should pray for God to continue to send those who are ready to hear and those who need to be delivered from fear.  Doesn't mean you don't talk about UR.  Just that you don't use a hammer to talk to someone about it who disagrees.

Anne

[eaglesway]

   Amen Anne..... No Hammers Allowed (a new creed?)  :iagree: :Shoot:

[Seth]

Basically: debates are good for those that listen in.

I agree. The problem though is that one person becomes the sacrifice for the others, in what I think is a negative way. Sure other people might benefit, as you say, but the opposition just gets more hardened the more it goes on.

Now when someone contacts me from my site to debate me, I assess the person's tone etc to determine whether it's honest seeking or gainsaying. If it's gainsaying I let the person know that I will follow this instruction:

Titus 3:10-11
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

I tell them that I will give two opportunities to discuss this issue with them but after that I will be done with it. I stick to that and I tell you following the Word's instructions to the church has great benefit to the doer. I have fallen short of this sometimes but following it has always better results for both parties. For the divisive one, it stops him from continuing his/her divisiveness (which is good for him/her), and for me it stops me from throwing pearls to be stomped on and twisted into falsehood.

[peacemaker]

"I came with an open heart and was spat on; forgive me, if I don't return."

Nice quote that is interpreted as: He ran out of arguments. We have debunked his heresy.

That would only equate to pridefulness; an inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority within their mind. :fool:

I'm sure there is wisdom in those words  :thumbsup:
But I don't understand it then  :thumbdown:

Are there any winners in war?   :megashock:

How can the word be spread if "we" keep it secret by sitting quietly on a bench?

Be still, and know that I am!  :mshock:

peacemaker

[ducktapehero]

How can the word be spread if "we" keep is secret by sitting quietly on  a bench?

I can only use my experience but I came to believe by simply REALLY thinking about it. I didn't read the Bible, I didn't go to church, I just looked at my son and thought, "Is there ANYTHING that he could do that would make me punish him forever?". It was right then that I KNEW that the concept of an eternal hell was false.

He's our Father, he loves us and wants us to be with him. Yep, we gotta find our own way back to him but it'll happen. Humans on Earth are often like teenagers, they think they know it all, their parents have no clue what's going on but after living for a while you eventually come to realize that in fact, it was YOU who didn't have a clue.

[sven]

what I wanted to express, is not that we should keep it secret, but, let me explain; I no longer consider it wise to tell it everybody, escpecially to those who don't want to hear it, we should not go out and tell it, but wait till people come to us, and tell them. If somebody disagrees with us, why bother? - truth is not determined by majority.

We should share our hope with those who are interested or suffer from the doctrine of hell, but we should not try to convert everybody to our believe.

Endless torment is indefensible from a moral and rational point of view, a sane person should see that, if not, we won't change them, but we should be there, for those who search answers.

[ducktapehero]

I agree, I actually just commented about this in another thread. I love to share the news but won't waste my time with people who won't even open their minds.

[WhiteWings]

We should share our hope with those who are interested or suffer from the doctrine of hell, but we should not try to convert everybody to our believe.

Ok, but some people probably would really like to hear a doctrine that's not the ET stuff their pastor preaches; but simply don't know it exists. And for those people a little 'advertising' might be all they need.
Convincing a closed mind will never work. But informing an open/searching mind....

[eaglesway]

Last week I had two opportunities to share UR with individuals who had never heard it before. One replied, " yea, somehow no matter how much I read the word it isn't quite adding up for me, I want to hear more". So we sat at a Mexican food place in Soho and talked for hours. Then, a few days later, I was chatting with a musician friend who was always a believer but of late was having a real struggle and looking into alternative religions, eastern mysticism etc..... as we talked I found out she was mainly struggling with "eternal torment" and could not reconcile it with her view of justice and mercy. I shared ultimate reconciliation and the plan of the ages with her and she was very moved, wants a book on it. I just rejoice that if we study to show ourselves approved and walk in the Spirit- we can reach people who need to hear. Sharing and discussing are great, debating is something I think some people have a gift for. But I still think when it gets ugly it is ugly- and mostly unfruitful.

Isa 50:4  The Lord GOD has given Me
The tongue of the learned,
That I should know how to speak
A word in season to him who is weary.
He awakens Me morning by morning,
He awakens My ear
To hear as the learned.