An uncertain rich man and uncertain Lazarus

[Tony N]

In the parable of what we today call "The Rich Man and Lazarus" the Lord used the word "tis" thus:

There was tis uncertain rich man . . . and there was an tis uncertain beggar names Lazarus (Luke 16:19,20).

So when tis is used in Greek it just basically means "any." The Lord was not saying there actually were two literal people ( a literal rich man and a literal beggar named lazarus) but, for the sake of the made up parable, the Lord brings up two uncertain individuals.

Tony

[claypot]

In the parable of what we today call "The Rich Man and Lazarus" the Lord used the word "tis" thus:

There was tis uncertain rich man . . . and there was an tis uncertain beggar names Lazarus (Luke 16:19,20).

So when tis is used in Greek it just basically means "any." The Lord was not saying there actually were two literal people ( a literal rich man and a literal beggar named lazarus) but, for the sake of the made up parable, the Lord brings up two uncertain individuals.

Tony

Hey Tony, I am currently discussing this 'story' with someone and your post helps much. Thanks!

cp

[Tim B]

That's interesting Tony. I've also read that the story is based on a Greek parable and Jesus just changed some of the characters, or something along those lines, to better fit his parable. Either way, that people take this as literal is quite silly. Do people take the sheep, or the coin, or the "prodigal son" to be literal people? Some might say the "prodigal son" was literal, but they certainly wouldn't the sheep or the coin. In any case, to take them as literal would destroy the WHOLE point of the PARABLE.

[Tony N]

Tim, also, do people take Jesus literally when He tells His disciples that they are salt?

I am curious about "tis" in John 11:1 concerning the actual Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha.

Is it possible John thought that Lazarus was an uncertain one to him?

But very often tis is used in relation to uncertain ones. There always seems to be something to break a law in grammar  :icon_joker:

[Sadie]

gang,

Some have speculated that this was no imagery tale, but an actual incident that really took place. Either way, Christ employs it in the same fashion of all his parables, to teach a lesson, in this case for the benefit of the Pharisees.

[rosered]

gang,

Some have speculated that this was no imagery tale, but an actual incident that really took place. Either way, Christ employs it in the same fashion of all his parables, to teach a lesson, in this case for the benefit of the Pharisees.

Hi Sadie
  It sure is quite a lesson for us all !  A few friends years ago dug deep into that  lesson  and  it blessed my socks off!
  If I can find it , I will post it with permission first of course  :thumbsup:

    :HeartThrob:  rose

[Taffy]

gang,

Some have speculated that this was no imagery tale, but an actual incident that really took place. Either way, Christ employs it in the same fashion of all his parables, to teach a lesson, in this case for the benefit of the Pharisees.

Hi Sadie
  It sure is quite a lesson for us all !  A few friends years ago dug deep into that  lesson  and  it blessed my socks off!
  If I can find it , I will post it with permission first of course  :thumbsup:

    :HeartThrob:  rose

ya got my vote Rosey xoxox :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

gang,

Some have speculated that this was no imagery tale, but an actual incident that really took place. Either way, Christ employs it in the same fashion of all his parables, to teach a lesson, in this case for the benefit of the Pharisees.

Hi Sadie
  It sure is quite a lesson for us all !  A few friends years ago dug deep into that  lesson  and  it blessed my socks off!
  If I can find it , I will post it with permission first of course  :thumbsup:

    :HeartThrob:  rose

ya got my vote Rosey xoxox :HeartThrob:

LOL now to get the other two to agree   wow
  where there are two or three   in agreement   He/ Lord Jesus  will be in our midst!  cool .... :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Make it 3, LOL........

[rosered]

  Hi Taffy and Card ,  I went last night to check it out on the other forum and its not going to be possible!  sorry for the fuss , 
but thanks for caring enough to ask anyways
   :HeartThrob:  rose

[Taffy]

  Hi Taffy and Card ,  I went last night to check it out on the other forum and its not going to be possible!  sorry for the fuss , 
but thanks for caring enough to ask anyways
   :HeartThrob:  rose

Morning Rosie  :HeartThrob:

I just maybe able to get me hands on it..ill be back lol :icon_flower:

[rosered]

   thats great bro!  :icon_flower:   

[Tony N]

gang,

Some have speculated that this was no imagery tale, but an actual incident that really took place. Either way, Christ employs it in the same fashion of all his parables, to teach a lesson, in this case for the benefit of the Pharisees.

• Dear Sadie, is there really a river of water flowing through "hell"?


• Is it scriptural to believe that when a person dies that if one receives evils things in this life the angels will carry such a one to Abraham's bosom?


• Is it scriptural to believe that if a person receives good things in this life that if they die in such a condition they go to "hell" when they die?

But I do agree with you that Christ used the parable to teach a lesson.

It is just that the point I was trying to make was many people believe the parable is of a real event since Jesus said "there was a certain rich man . . . ," where, in reality, the rich man was an uncertain rich man.

If the parable is about what really happens when one dies then it is fraught with contradictions with other scriptures. I think Jesus was just taking the Pharisees and Sadducees traditions (which went counter to God's word) and used their teaching against them.

[Taffy]

I think Jesus was just taking the Pharisees and Sadducees traditions (which went counter to God's word) and used their teaching against them.

:thumbsup:

Seems these threads are overlapping..it might be an idea to make them one

.Sadie

Many places to start on this thread...

But this Place you called Hell[hades] of such torment and pain..

is it this one Rev 21:8   But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.   

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

note the word Brimstone,.. in the Old T, Brimstone is likened to a stream and that Stream is the SPIRIT of God which brought\brings Life..strange dont ya think,an incense of Purification?


.
Isa 30:33 For Tophet[ place of fire] [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath [nĕshamah]
of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it. 

Al lwood[ men after the flesh] must perish .for life to reign

and again..Doesnt Hades itself get cast into the Same Fire..Hell cast into hell..mmm

hades speaks after those who Dwell there..Dead to Christ, Dead men walking and talking SPEAKING AND TEACHING the ministration of DEATH

for mine -The rich man like many other times  when we SEE rich mentioned ,speaks more after spiritual WEALTH, which at the time were the jews, specially those who sat in Moses seat, The Pharisees..men after LAW  ...lazurus[ he who is helped] is One of Faith.

The whole parable depicts those NOT of Faith and those who are,, the place of HELL is where ALL not in the faith Are, even those who Live,let the DEAD bury the dead etc

its all figurative.

The top of the Finger [ Christ Finger wrote in the EARTH] IT Teaches, the water is The spirit which Quenches the RICH man Tongues as its Speaks DEATH as one who Taught AFTER the Ministration of IT.

The Great Gulf betwen them is FAITH and can ONLY be breached because of it..

the five Brothers ARE the LAW and the Prophets = Torah
they Never Understood that law speaks of the Shadow of the reality which was to follow.

YES INDEED parables speak of spiritual Truths, the theme is generally the same , Law v Grace and TRUTH..

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Love it, Taff!  :thumbsup: Blessings....

[Tony N]

Kind of long but maybe worth the read:

                    THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

IN THE REVOLT against the traditions concerning the so-called
"intermediate state" there has been a return to the teaching of
the Scriptures. A careful consideration of "the Law, the Prophets,
and the Literature"--as the sacred Hebrew writings were called by
our Lord--and especially the book of Ecclesiastes, is proof
positive that "the dead know not anything" (Ecc.9:5). This is
further confirmed by a close study of the later Greek Scriptures.
In spite of the attempts on the part of the translators to conform
their versions to the accepted tradition, enough of the truth was
left to show that, apart from resurrection, even those who have
fallen asleep in Christ have perished (1 Cor.15:18).

     But there is one passage which seems to teach the very
opposite. It seems to run counter to the entire tenor of
Scripture. As a result, there have been many attempts to explain
it away. Many who see the truth clearly still feel that the
features in which the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is
presented create a very real difficulty (Luke 16:19-31). This
thought also tends to linger because the passage is not
contemplated as part of a larger discourse which extends from
Luke 15:1 to 17:10. In this section the Lord deals with the
situation which has arisen through His ministry; that is, the fact
that it has divided the people into two classes: (a) those who
wished to hear more, and (b) those who resent and reject His
teaching, as well as despising the class of people who do receive
Him. Of the former class (a) were the tribute-collectors and
sinners (15:1), while the

p272                                     The Meaning of "Certain"

latter (b) was comprised of the Pharisees, scribes and law
teachers (15:2).

            THE AUTHORIZED VERSION OF LUKE 16:19-31

     The translation of this passage, as it is found in the
"Authorized" version, is not far from the mark, though it might be
more accurate in a few places. It may be well to point out that
the story was not given out as an actual incident. This is the
thought conveyed by the word rendered "certain." It really
signifies "{un}certain." It is a very indefinite term, usually
rendered "any" and is often used to introduce ideal or typical
characters. There is no evidence to support the assertion that
"there {was} a rich man." Our Lord asserts the contrary when He
inserts the word {tis} (ANY), making it an ideal rather than a
real case. The "sumptuous fare" of the rich man has no particular
reference to food, and cannot be taken in the derogatory sense
which is usually attached to feasting. It is an element necessary
to the parable and was but the exuberant gladness which even
saints are exhorted to entertain, strengthened by the addition of
the word "splendidly" (Acts 2:26; Rom.15:10; 2 Cor.2:2; Gal.4:27;
Rev.11:10; 12:12; 18:20). The CONCORDANT VERSION renders this
"make merry" or "be glad." The "great gulf" or yawning chasm
evidently was a waterway, for Abraham tells the rich man, "Neither
may they ferry from thence to us" (vs.26). This word is used only
when speaking of crossing water. And there must have been water
for Lazarus to dip his finger into.

                       ABRAHAM'S TEACHING?

     The gist of the teaching in this tale is summed up by Abraham
when He says to the rich man, "You got your good things in your
life, and Lazarus likewise evil things. Yet now here he is being
consoled, yet you are in pain" (16:25). This is not teaching from
God's Word. It is contrary to all revelation to base happiness in
the next life on poverty in the present one. This point alone

p273                                       Two Classes of Hearers

should be sufficient to show that we have a parable before us. The
doctrine is that of the Pharisees and its untruth is being turned
back upon them. The Lord is borrowing from the traditions current
among the Pharisees, and into them He places the two classes of
His hearers. The Pharisees are placed in a position completely
contrary to that which they think they will be accorded. This is a
very important point in the parable and really prepares for the
concluding words which are placed in the mouth of Abraham (16-31).

                    WAS THE RICH MAN WICKED?

     We are not at liberty to add to this scripture and to imagine
that the rich man was wicked as well as wealthy. We are not told
so, and his "faring" sumptuously was not necessarily any worse
than the joy of heaven over the advent of the Kingdom and the
authority of the Christ, for the same term is used of both
(Rev.12:12). He daily "made merry splendidly," regarding himself
as under the favor of heaven, symbolized by the cambric and purple
dress. Lazarus, who had been cast at the rich man's gate, yearned
to be satisfied. Yet he was given no special attention by the rich
man, even though he possessed the means to supply all his needs.
These are the distinctions positively implied and the parable, is
specially concerned with them, for these teachers should have
supplied Ieue's truth to those of Israel: figured by Lazarus. This
class was now giving heed to the teaching of the Lord.

                     OBEDIENCE AND BLESSING

     While it is true, in this administration, that God is
selecting the base things (1 Cor.1:26-29), it is not so,
necessarily, under the law. Obedience to the law brought temporal
blessing; suffering was generally the law's penalty for
disobedience. Those who hearkened diligently to Ieue's voice were
to be blessed in every way (Deut.28:1-14), like the rich man.
Upon those who

p274                                      Curses for Disobedience

would not hearken, came the curses which afflicted Lazarus
(Deut.28:15,16). He had the "botch" or boils of Egypt
(Deut.28:27), the sore botch which cannot be healed (vs.35).
Lazarus had the sure tokens of Ieue's displeasure, the rich man
had every sign of His favor. This position (from the law's
viewpoint) should be noted, and put alongside other distinctions
in the parable. Considered thus, it is again confirmed that it is
not the teaching of the law which is being considered, but rather
the major theme of the whole discourse; that Messiah was being
rejected, yet the despised were giving heed to Him.

                       "LIES" IN THE BIBLE

     With these details clearly before us, we are led to inquire
as to the reason for the elements which are brought into the
parable: Abraham's bosom, the great chasm, and the impossibility
of crossing it. Why are these particular things used to illustrate
it? Before we go further, it is essential that we realize that
much that is in the Bible is {not} true. Satan's first statement,
"Ye shall not surely die" (Gen.3:4) was not true, even if it has
been incorporated into the creeds. And the woman's first utterance
contains an element of falsehood, for God did not say "neither
shall ye {touch} it" (Gen.3:3). The greater part of the book of
Job is composed of man's false philosophy. Many a text has been
taken from it because the preacher did not distinguish between the
unsullied word or expression of God Himself and His {inspired
record} of the false views and utterances of others. But we cannot
put the details of the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus into this
category, for it fell from the lips of our Lord Himself. We must
see that He is using the teaching of others in order to show its
falseness.

                        FIGURES AND FACTS

     The fact is that it is an impressive figure of speech.
Figures are not, and indeed, cannot be, true as to fact,

p275                                    Figures Stir the Feelings

but are true to feeling. We never think of accusing Jesus with
falsehood when He said "This is My body," or when He speaks of
that same body as "the temple," so that He was misunderstood. Nor
is it true that His disciples were "salt," or that the other
Lazarus was literally "asleep" in the corrupting tomb. So that,
when we suggest that our Lord told a story which was not true as
to fact, but most impressive in the finer realm of feeling, we are
simply expressing in words what is acknowledged by all, in various
degrees. And we are simply applying a recognized principle to the
case in hand. If anyone wishes to know where the denial of this
plain principle leads, let him follow the controversy between the
learned Luther and Zwingli. Luther's contention that the bread is
the Lord's body was unwarranted by the facts. Faith is the
acknowledgment of a {truth} which our senses are unable to test,
not the acceptance of a {lie} which our senses deny.

     If, then, this is a figure of speech, what figure is it? It
is the figure we call Admission. By it, one side of this parable
is admitted as though true, in order to deny it in the other side
which corresponds and explains it. Although the verses are not
directly termed a parable, it is apparent that the basic details
were well known, and this is an essential element in a parable.
The story must be familiar and commonplace. A picture is presented
to the eye as one side of a parallelism, alongside of which we are
supposed to put the hidden meaning. Though ideal, it may well be
true as to fact; it is the interpretation which is true in a
different realm.

                         ABRAHAM'S BOSOM

     That the scene is a figurative one is evident, for the
literal bosom of Abraham is not sufficiently capacious to hold the
blessed dead. Yet he is made to figure, felicity, since he was
given the original blessing. In accord with this, Abraham is also
made the principal speaker. It is essential that we take the terms
and

p276                      "Evidence" for the "Intermediate State"

elements of the parable as the Lord's listeners would take them.
They were accustomed to use Abraham's bosom as a figure of the
highest blessedness. Their vivid oriental imaginations clothed the
abstract idea of blessing with appropriate concrete forms. This
presents no difficulty to their eastern minds. Many stories almost
identical in their figures, were common in their traditions.

                    THE "GOSPEL OF NICODEMUS"

     Later on these crude errors were repeated in the apocryphal
"Gospel of Nicodemus," sometimes styled "The Acts of Pontius
Pilate." The writer of this, adding to the record of the
resurrection which occurred after the Lord was crucified
(Matt.27:53), tells how Charinus and Lenthius, sons of Simeon
(Luke 2:25) were raised, but could not talk until they had made
the sign of the cross with their fingers on their tongues. Then
they asked for a piece of paper on which each writes the forbidden
account of what they saw in hell. Charinus gave what he wrote into
the hands of Annas and Caiaphas and Gamaliel. Lenthius gave his to
Nicodemus and Joseph. Then they vanished. What they wrote was
compared and found to agree. Not even one letter was different, in
the entire chronicle.

     This narrative of what was seen in hell should be read by all
who wish evidence (?) for the orthodox position on the
"intermediate state." All was dark at first, but suddenly a
"substantial purple-colored light" enlightens the place. Isaiah
cried out that this was the fulfillment of his prophecy!
(Isa.9:1; Luke 2:29). John the Baptist appears in his part as the
forerunner, reminding Adam of what Michael had told Seth at the
gates of Paradise, when Adam had a headache. Michael had said to
Seth, "Do not pray to God in tears and entreat Him for the oil of
the tree of mercy wherewith to anoint thy father Adam for his
headache, because thou canst not by any means obtain it till the
last day and times, namely, till five thousand five hundred years
be passed."

p277                       "Evidence"for the "Intermediate State"

Then comes Satan, boasting of his defeat of Christ in death, but
he is soon followed by Christ Himself, Who makes the sign of the
cross on Adam and upon all His saints, and leads them all,
including David (in contradiction to Acts 2:34), into the
heavenly paradise! There they met Enoch and Elijah. The "thief,"
too, had preceded them, having been given the sign of the cross so
that the angel who is the guard of paradise will admit him! Lest
anyone should take this as the Rich Man and Lazarus story is
generally taken--as a narrative of facts I beg to explain that I
repeat these fables only that they may afford a contrast with the
real source of truth on this question and to show that orthodoxy
is following fables instead of the pure presentations of holy
writ.

                     JEWS SIGNS ARE SEEKING

     It was natural for the Jews to seek for a sign. They
preferred to have someone rise from the dead rather than listen to
Ieue's words as recorded by Moses and the prophets. But, when
another Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha, did come forth
from the tomb, having been in the unseen four days, what did they
do? They sought to kill him (John 12:9-11)! And what did he
report as to the realms of the dead? {Not one word}! Why? Because
there was nothing for him to tell! Had he some tale like this,
which would uphold their traditions and give the lie to Moses and
the prophets, he would have been the petted idol of the day. This
is the truth taught here: Faith. "They have Moses and the
prophets. {Let them hear them}!" Nothing else will persuade them,
not even the return of Lazarus from the dead. {The great object of
the story is to drive, the faithless Pharisees back to the
Scriptures}. The whip He uses is one of their own traditions.

                        THE TABLES TURNED

     The Lord shows the powerlessness and absurdity of their
departures from the written law by forcing these

p278               Examples in Scripture of this Figure of Speech

to their legitimate conclusion. They did not hesitate to put their
doctrines into the mouth of Abraham, but the Lord used Abraham,
the great example of faith, to turn them from their puerile
deceptions back to the Scriptures which they had deserted. Thus,
while, for the moment, He allows a portion of the position they
hold, He does so in order to show them where they stand in respect
to His own ministry, for Lazarus, representing those whom the
Pharisees despised, is in the happy position which the Pharisees
had appropriated for themselves, though they rejected Messiah.

                     "EPITROPE" OR ADMISSION

     As we have mentioned, the real name of the figure of speech
used here is "Admission" or {Epitrope}*. That which is false is
seemingly granted or admitted for the time. It is closely allied
to irony, which states the opposite of what is really intended.
Figures such as these depend upon the occasion, upon the attending
circumstances, to make them understood. They may be used only in
the most serious discourse, when the climax is being attained. It
must, of course, be clear to all what the speaker {really
believes}. What he states must, in its first count, be that which
his {listeners teach}. Then there is no possibility of mistaking
the speaker's real meaning. For instance, when Micaiah told the
king of Israel, "Go, and prosper, and Ieue deliver it with the
hand of the king," {we} would naturally think, unless we had
entered into very close sympathy with the state of affairs, that
the king ought to be pleased. But he knew what was in his own
heart and that it was not in line with Ieue, so he sees the
meaning hidden behind the prophet's words. Ieue was encouraging
him to his own destruction (1 Kings 22:15).

     Thus we see that Ieue, by his prophets, actually used

----------

     * See "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible," by E. W.
Bullinger, D.D., Page 972.

p279               Examples in Scripture of this Figure of Speech

words {which were not true} as to literal fact, yet full of truth
and force for the king in his rebellion.

     Like this is the advice of the Assembler (AV, the "Preacher",
Heb., {Qeith}). "Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth: and let thy
heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the sight
of thine eyes: but know thou that for all these things God will
bring thee into judgment." We do not take this advice as it
stands. In fact it arouses the opposite desire, to {avoid} the
ways of one's own heart and {distrust} one's own eyes, for, as he
goes on to say, "childhood and youth are vanity (Ecc.11:9,10).

     Another example is in the prophecy of Amos.

          "Come to Beth-El and transgress!
           At Gilgal increase the transgression!
           And bring, for the morning, your sacrifices,
           For three days your tithes!
           And fume incense from leaven as acclamation,
           And proclaim the voluntary vows.
           Announce that so you love it, sons of Israel."
           Averring is my Lord Ieue.              Amos 4:4,5. C.V.

     This, indeed, pleased {them}, but who imagines that it
pleased {Him}, even if He had not said plainly, "seek {not} to
Beth-El?"

     In line with this was the advice given by our Lord to the
scribes and Pharisees. After denouncing the murderous crew, He
adds, "And you! Fill full the measure of your fathers!"
(Matt.23:32). This they did in crucifying Him, but even they
would hardly claim that it was done at His instigation.

                THE LORD BORROWS THEIR TRADITION

     Details for the story of the rich man and Lazarus are taken
from the Pharisaic traditions of the day. As our Lord uses these
traditions, He is careful to phrase His speech with their peculiar
terms, such as "Abraham's bosom," "carried by "`angels'" (or
messengers), etc., all of which He borrowed from the so-called
"oral law,"

p280            This Parable Based on The Pharisees' Own Teaching

which He had denounced, and none of which has the least likeness
to that written law which He hid in His heart. They knew full well
that He was giving them their own and not His doctrine. In fact,
matters had come to such a crisis that they would no longer listen
to {His} teaching, so He uses some of their own, yet alters it to
form a rebuke to their opposition to His ministry.

     Seeing that this was the case, we have just the right
material for the figure of Admission. Feeling gets the better of
mere fact.

                           THE SETTING

     The parable occurs at just such a juncture. The Lord had been
speaking of another rich man and his unjust steward or
administrator. He made friends for himself with his master's
money. His master commends him for his prudence. Our Lord comments
to His disciples, "And am I saying to you, Make for yourselves
friends with the mammon of injustice, that whenever it may be
defaulting, they should be receiving you into the eonian
tabernacles? He who is faithful in the least, is faithful in much
also, and he who is unjust in the least, is unjust in much also.
If, then, you did not come to be faithful in the unjust mammon,
who will be entrusting to you the true? And if you did not come to
be faithful in that which is an outsider's, who will be giving you
that which is yours? No domestic can slave for two lords, for
either he will be hating the one and loving the other, or he will
be upholding one and despising the other. You cannot slave for God
and mammon." And the Pharisees also, inherently {fond of money},
heard all these things, {and they scouted Him} (Luke 16:9-14).
The Lord's disciples were to become the new stewards because
Israel rejected Him (Luke 17:1-10).

     The Pharisees scouted the Lord. But He does not leave them.
He touches their weak point and holds them by it until He can
enforce the lesson they so much needed. To go on correcting and
denouncing them was

p281            This Parable Based on The Pharisees' Own Teaching

useless, for they "stuck up their noses" in disdain and would not
listen. The object before Him is to enforce His dictum, "It is
easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the
law to fall. "And, since they would not listen to plain truth, He
gives it to them in their own terms. Though, in the rich man, the
Pharisee would fain see the Sadducee, yet by the realistic
portrayal of his own conception of {hades} or the unseen (AV,
"hell"), both are brought within the scope of the Lord's words.
This is made doubly clear, for the rich man had five brethren who
would not hearken to Moses and the prophets, either.

     The skillful introduction of Abraham by means of their own
pet phrase "Abraham's bosom" gives Him the opportunity of
impressing all with the real sentiment of the "father of the
{faithful}." They claimed Abraham for their father while they were
doing the work of the Adversary. And all because they did not
follow in the faith which Abraham exemplified. How impressive,
then, when their ears were closed to the Lord's teaching, to hear
Abraham's voice from the dead, as it were, warning them of their
apostasy! "{They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear
them}!" "{If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither
will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the
dead}" (16:29,31).

                   LET US BELIEVE ALL THE WORD

     And may we press home this very exhortation? May we suggest
that our Lord always believed and taught what had been revealed on
the subject of death, and that not even the Pharisees themselves
were deceived into thinking that He had abandoned the Scriptures
and had instead embraced their notions as to the state of the
dead?

     It is to {faith} that we appeal. On another occasion, when
our Lord was dealing with an unfaithful slave, He

p282                                The Resurrection and the Life

admitted that He was a harsh man (Luke 19:22). Shall we take this
as our authority for denying all the grace and love which
illumines almost every page of the sacred text? He admitted that
He was a harsh man--but {is He}? And just so He admitted the
traditions of His enemies, the Pharisees--but shall we follow them
or take His own words {when dealing with His disciples on this
very subject and heed His advice to believe all that God has
spoken}? We will not place our expectation in Abraham or in any
traditional intermediate state, but in Christ, not as--what shall
we say? Scripture has no name for Him in connection with the
intermediate state, so we will not invent one--but in CHRIST as
THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE.                             A.E.K. (Unsearchable Riches, vol.54)

[rosered]

 

Hi  all , that was interesting Tony ... I just got permissin from Chrissie to 
go ahead   and post her piece here , I have found it to be one of the most clear and   profound pieces ever  on the rich man an Lazarus  ...  just wonderful and was so blessed to  read  it   , sure hope others will be blessed by it too as I have been , things i have never considered before   become clear  in it ...   God bless her heart!  :HeartThrob:  by Chrissie / angelmom

Lazarus and the rich man
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alot of people use the story of Lazarus and the ricj man to support their belief in hell and eternal torment.... but I don't see it that way... so I thought I would post the way I see this story/parable and see what others think.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man:

Some will say that this is not a parable, but that is how I see it. The parable does not start with Lazarus and the rich man; it is part of a much larger parable that starts in Luke Chapter 15:

(Luk 15:3) And He spoke this parable to them, saying:

There are several stories/parables that are part of this ONE larger parable and Lazarus and the rich man is only one of these stories/parables. There is the parable of the Lost Sheep starting at Luke 15:4; there is the parable of the Prodigal Son starting at Luke 15:11; there is the parable of the Steward starting at Luke 16:1; then we come to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man at Luke 16:19; following is the parable of the mustard seed.

So what about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

What do we know about the rich man?

1. He was clothed in purple and fine linen
2. He has good things in his life
3. He died and was buried and he found himself in torment in 'hell'
4. He looks up from 'hell' and sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom
5. He calls Abraham "Father"
6. He begs Abraham to send Lazarus to his house to save his five brothers, lest they come unto the same torment

What do we know about Lazarus?

1. He was laid at the gate, full of sore, desiring to be fed crumbs from the rich man's table [like a dog]
2. The 'dogs' [his own kind] came to lick his sores
3. He has evil things in his life
4. He died and was carried into Abraham's bosom


Now considering the rich man...

Without going into the entire history of the OT and the lineage of Abraham, I am just going to jump to the punch and tell you that the rich man in this parable is Judah, but Judah, in this parable, represents the entire Jewish Nation (Israel/God's Chosen people).

The rich man was clothes in purple [symbolic of royalty; Judah carried the royal line of Israel (Gen 49:10)] and fine linen [symbolic of the priesthood; they were the protectors and scribes of the writings of Moses and the prophets]. He had good things in his life [being a wealthy nation, blessed by God, being His chosen people]. He called Abraham father [Judah was Abraham's great grandson; and all Israelites considered Abraham their 'father'] and he had five brothers. [Israel had 12 sons, one of which was Judah; however, Israel had 6 sons with wife Leah, Judah's mother – giving Judah 5 brothers.]

So who is Lazarus? Again, I will just jump to the punch and say that it is Eliezer of Demascus, who was a faithful servant to Abraham. Before Abraham received the seed of his promise he intended to make Eliezer his heir. Eliezer, I am sure, was aware of this but remained a faithful servant even after Abraham received his promise and it was clear that he would not inherit anything from Abraham. In this parable, Eliezer represents the Gentile Nations.


Back to the parable, now:

Lazarus [the Gentile Nations] lay at the gate, full of sores desiring to be fed by the crumbs from the table of the rich man [God's chosen people].

The dogs come to lick his sores [comfort him, take care of their own]. Why 'dogs'? Are the Gentiles ever referred to as 'dogs'?

Refer to Mark:

(Mar 7:24-30)
And He arose from there and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon. And He entered into a house and desired no one to know it. But He could not be hidden. For a woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of Him and came and fell at His feet. The woman was a Greek, a Syro-phoenician by race [a Gentile]. And she BEGGED Him that He would cast the demon out of her daughter. But Jesus said to her, LET THE CHILDREN [the Jews, whom He came to] FIRST BE FILLED. For it is not right to take the children's loaves [take the 'bread' from their table] and to throw it TO THE DOGS [the Gentiles, those not chosen]. And she answered and said to Him, Yes, Lord, yet THE DOGS UNDER THE TABLE eat of the children's CRUMBS. And He said to her, For this saying go [because of her faith and desire to have any crumbs that might fall from the table], the demon has gone out of your daughter. And when she had come to her house, she found the demon had gone out, and her daughter lay on the couch.

When Lazarus died he was carried into the bosom of Abraham, but when the rich man died he was buried and found himself looking up from 'hell' [hades, is the grave/unseen] in torment seeing Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham.

[This is not a literal story, it is a parable; it is not an actual account of what happened when someone dies. This is symbolic of spiritual life/death in Christ.]

(Luk 16:23) And in hell [hades] he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham AFAR OFF, and Lazarus in his bosom [where he thought he should be].

(Luk 16:24) And he cried and said, FATHER Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame [a reference to the Lake of Fire/God's judgment].

[What is he asking for? Not even a drink of water, but just a DROP of water from the finger of Lazarus.]

(Luk 16:25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things [the wealth and riches of God; bless of God; God's chosen], and likewise Lazarus evil things [not chosen of God]. But now he is comforted [having been brought into Abraham's bosom; into a close relationship with God] and you are tormented [afar off from the bosom of his father (God)].

(Luk 16:26) And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you CANNOT, nor can they pass over to us from there. [This is not a permanent chasm; the chasm will be bridged by Christ and these 'broken branches' will be grafted back in.]

(Luk 16:27-28) And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

[He knows that his brothers, the Jewish nation, who are now cast off, will come into the same 'torment' when they see that THEY are no longer in Abraham's bosom, where they believe they are].

(Luk 16:29) Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them. [They have the Words of God through Moses and the prophets, let them hear THEM and listen so that they do not come under the same condemnation.]

(Luk 16:30) And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.

[Really, didn't someone already go to them from the dead? To bring them to repentance? And they heard Him not?]

(Luk 16:31) And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, EVEN THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.


ONE did rise from the dead!!

This story is not one of torment in hell for the wicked dead. It has nothing to do with the eternal fate of the dead. It is about the gospel and how it was brought to the Jews. The Jews rejected their Messiah and they were "cast off" and the Gentiles were "grafted in". The gospel has been given to the gentiles, who now find themselves in the place of God's chosen people, in the bosom of Abraham. So it is no longer the gentiles begging for crumbs [perhaps 'bread' crumbs?] from the table of the Jews; but the Jews begging for a drop of water [living water, no doubt] from the Gentiles (spiritually speaking).


It is not a story about the righteous and the wicked and heaven and hell and nary the twain shall meet.


(Rom 11:15-18)
For if their casting away is the reconciling OF THE WORLD, what is the reception except LIFE FROM THE DEAD? For if the firstfruit is holy, THE LUMP IS ALSO HOLY; and if the root is holy, ALSO THE BRANCHES.


And if some of the branches were broken off [God's original chosen people], and you [the nations], being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you.

More on why parables?

Christ spoke in parables to the masses and He did this for a reason. It is not given to all to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God.

(Mat 13:34-35)
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowds in parables, and HE DID NOT SPEAK TO THEM WITHOUT A PARABLE, so that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

(Mar 4:10-12)
And when He was alone, they who were about Him, with the Twelve, asked Him concerning the parable. And He said to them, TO YOU IT IS GIVEN to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. But to those outside [those not being called/chosen], ALL these things are given in parables [why?] so that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Not everyone is being called to Christ and repentance; He makes it clear that if they truly UNDERSTOOD Him, they would repent and be forgiven. SO why would He not make Himself clear so that all could understand and be healed? Because just as the Jews were EXAMPLES for us... so are we EXAMPLES for the world.

(Luk 8:9-10)
And His disciples asked Him, saying, What might this parable be? And He said, TO YOU IT IS GIVEN to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. But to others I speak in parables, SO THAT seeing they might not see and hearing they might not understand.

[He clearly does not want all to see and all to hear and all to understand; NOT ALL are being called/chosen now.]

Blessings,
angelmom   

[WhiteWings]

And another version of this parable :laughing7: And certainly not a bad one :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

Hi Rosey :icon_flower:

I see you found It before I did..was only talking to Chrissie a few days back too :icon_flower:

[rosered]

 

  Thanks WW , Taffy ,
  yeppers   I wrote her   :thumbsup:
I thought this is to gooood to  let the'' dust settle on it'' !!!!!!!!!
  its something I have kept in my heart for  awhile now  :HeartThrob:     rose

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks Rose and thank Chrissie...... :thumbsup: Blessings....

[rosered]

:cloud9: Thanks Rose and thank Chrissie...... :thumbsup: Blessings....

  Hi Sis ! 
   I love how it does seem to tier into the other   lessons  as Jesus is speaking
and the 5 brothers being  Judahs  , makes good sense to me how it kinda now has a  FLOW to Jesus  teachings
and  out of the tribe of Judah /judasim   come  the Lion / Jesus to take back  what is Gods  ..   his   people   of Him and His Truth  :thumbsup:

  God knows I have heard so many things over the years   though articles  and forums LOL...  as  we are all trying /searching for Truth .   Much to consider   :HeartThrob:  rose

[Nicolás]

Agreed, that is the best explanation of the parable ever!!
L. Ray Smith wrote it

The complete version is at

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

Blessings

[sparrow]

That was really good Chrissie... though I'm not sure who you are... someone please tell her I said THANKS!!!!  :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:

[Livelystone]

Greetings

The rich man in purple and fine linen represents the leaders of todays church

They live well and are respected in the community where their pulpits are the origins of the lies that have caused the Glory of God to depart from the church........

They are the tail of the dragon that sweeps the stars (christians) from their inheritance in heaven because of their false teachings of not being able to "sin no more", as well as ET and mansions on streets of gold with gates of pearls etc etc.

The five brothers are the five fold ministry in the image and same likeness of the rich clergy man....... they support the false doctrines taught by the leaders of the church.

Poor "Lazurus" are those of today who like John the Baptist speak the truth yet are despised by the church and remain outside the camp. They do not share in the wealth of todays church yet those unbelievers (gentile dogs) whom are led to the truth by this "lazurus company" of today do comfort  the Lazurus of today by the knowledge that through their words,teaching and example the true Body of Christ on earth has been both blessed and enlarged.

Both of them called Abraham "Father" just as both the clergy of today and those whom are outside the camp have been birthed through the seed that is Christ and through this seed both men have been given the power to become a son of God...... but only one is taken. (accepted into the family of God)

Jesus who holds the keys to death and hell has told the rich clergy to "depart from me". Christ is the water that the rich man can no longer access have already received their reward while alive on earth and now face the consequences of their earthly decisions.

Blessings

Doug