Would the World Be Better WITHOUT "CHURCH"?

[Tim B]

Don't worry guys, if you don't agree, that's all good. But I was thinking about this, and when I think of "going to church" or I see a "church building" I just want to run away; run in and tell everybody they're being deceived into believing a cruel and heartless God of eternal torment; or... maybe even (although not actually) burn one down!

When I think of all the garbage that I've been told about a "God of love (but which eternally torments people)" I feel like most of it's come from the people that went to "church buildings" and/or "church services". I feel like the places (church buildings) are like a big brain washing center for the masses. I feel like so many people, if not the majority of people, that "go to church" are fake. Furthermore, I feel like so many people go to church on Sunday so they can "get right with God" and then blow him off on the rest of the week.

So I was thinking, would the world be better off WITHOUT "church buildings" and "going to church"? I figure it would make people face reality: there's life OUTSIDE OF "CHURCH"!!! I'm definitely not saying this for everybody that "goes to church," but I just think people who go to church often can't face reality and they fall into all sorts of dogmas and almost treat life like it's the "church" on one side and "the world" on the other. I mean, us believers are IN the world, and while we shouldn't be "part" of it, we need to be IN it so we can bless all people. We don't need to be IN church. We need to be IN the world!

Maybe it's the fact that I've been hanging out with non-believers more this summer, than I have before, that I'm getting these feelings. But I see how awesome these people are, and how God is even in them (I see God manifest himself in so many things!), and they don't "go to church"!

What do you guys think? Do you think that the world would be better off without "church" and had a group of believers that was IN the world instead of IN church (especially ones which teach eternal torment (aka most of them))?

PS: How can you go to something YOU ARE? I mean, the believers are THE CHURCH (or, in reality, "the ecclesia"), not some place or building. We go to EACH OTHER for true life and fellowship.  :bigGrin:

PPS: If you like "going to church" please don't be offended by it. I know plenty of Godly people that "go to church" but I still think the world would be better without the places.

[martincisneros]

It was genuinely established by the Apostles according to the writings of the later part of the first century thru the second century.  Sucks what it's become in some areas, but you're over-simplifying and over-generalizing!  I personally want to always be on the right side of what the earliest decades after the earliest Apostles would have believed was passed down to them by the first Apostles.  That way, I don't end up in a burning Hell for the remaining eons of the reign of Christ Jesus! :happy3:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I personally cheer every time I see another one go up. I consider them ideal 'meeting halls' for the manifested sons of God that are coming, to turn the world (including them) upside down. So, build away, kingdoms of the earth; the Holy One has need of you. Blessings...

[fire walker]

Don't worry guys, if you don't agree, that's all good. But I was thinking about this, and when I think of "going to church" or I see a "church building" I just want to run away; run in and tell everybody they're being deceived into believing a cruel and heartless God of eternal torment; or... maybe even (although not actually) burn one down!

When I think of all the garbage that I've been told about a "God of love (but which eternally torments people)" I feel like most of it's come from the people that went to "church buildings" and/or "church services". I feel like the places (church buildings) are like a big brain washing center for the masses. I feel like so many people, if not the majority of people, that "go to church" are fake. Furthermore, I feel like so many people go to church on Sunday so they can "get right with God" and then blow him off on the rest of the week.

So I was thinking, would the world be better off WITHOUT "church buildings" and "going to church"? I figure it would make people face reality: there's life OUTSIDE OF "CHURCH"!!! I'm definitely not saying this for everybody that "goes to church," but I just think people who go to church often can't face reality and they fall into all sorts of dogmas and almost treat life like it's the "church" on one side and "the world" on the other. I mean, us believers are IN the world, and while we shouldn't be "part" of it, we need to be IN it so we can bless all people. We don't need to be IN church. We need to be IN the world!

Maybe it's the fact that I've been hanging out with non-believers more this summer, than I have before, that I'm getting these feelings. But I see how awesome these people are, and how God is even in them (I see God manifest himself in so many things!), and they don't "go to church"!

What do you guys think? Do you think that the world would be better off without "church" and had a group of believers that was IN the world instead of IN church (especially ones which teach eternal torment (aka most of them))?

PS: How can you go to something YOU ARE? I mean, the believers are THE CHURCH (or, in reality, "the ecclesia"), not some place or building. We go to EACH OTHER for true life and fellowship.  :bigGrin:

PPS: If you like "going to church" please don't be offended by it. I know plenty of Godly people that "go to church" but I still think the world would be better without the places.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tim B,

When pondering the meaning of your question this verse kept appearing to me: "Hebrews 8:11", I am not going to quote bible verses because we can all read the bible for ourselves, anyway to cut the preaching of myself or rambling in the letter I am  making it short:

We (mankind) ought to be at that place already pointed out in Hebrews 8:11, just as other verses of scripture point out that time "now is"when we shall no longer worship on this mountian top or in that synogogue but in Truth and in Spirit, until that portion of worship which is not seen is seen by ALL it appears there are still going to be churches, synogogues, mosques
and mountain tops for folks to teach, preach and to gather at and worship in the letter.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[Tim B]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tim B,

When pondering the meaning of your question this vere kept appearing to me Hebrews 8:11, I am not going to quote bible verses because we can all read the bible for ourselves, anyway to cut the preaching of myself or rambling and make it short:

We (mankind) ought to be at that place already pointed out in Hebrews 8:11, just as other verses of scripture point out that time "now is"when we shall no longer worship on this mountian top or in that synogogue but in Truth and in Spirit.

Peace,
Fire Walker

Thanks for the reply Fire Walker, I found it very uplifting.  :thumbsup:

[sparrow]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tim B,

When pondering the meaning of your question this vere kept appearing to me Hebrews 8:11, I am not going to quote bible verses because we can all read the bible for ourselves, anyway to cut the preaching of myself or rambling and make it short:

We (mankind) ought to be at that place already pointed out in Hebrews 8:11, just as other verses of scripture point out that time "now is"when we shall no longer worship on this mountian top or in that synogogue but in Truth and in Spirit.

Peace,
Fire Walker

Thanks for the reply Fire Walker, I found it very uplifting.  :thumbsup:

Me too.  :HeartThrob:

[NinjaWizards777]

I guess I have mixed feelings about the church in general. I have no bitterness or hate for the people in it trying to serve God, but I have such bitterness for many of the lies that I feel enslave these people to a one track mind. Some people are happy with this, others struggle yet refuse to let go of this institutionalized system weve made of God.

On the same note, it was being raised in church, church camps and being around fundamentalists that helped stimulate my journey with God. So, on the one hand I feel that the church tries to box and sell God in a hurtful buisness that they themselves arent aware...and on the other hand I think its a great "incubator" for those coming into faith. All in all, I think its a good starting place...its just not the end place or the system I think God and his truth is contained to.

[onlytruth]

I agree ninja...I received a lot through all the different ministries I was a part of.Looking ahead though,I see God calling many to something higher and the "church that equiped us" was one of those tools...so why take the same class all over again?
Waiting for the spirit to reveal though takes patience(in my spirit I sense an authority coming on and eyes to see clearly).Unfortunately we only see partially and the present church isn't able to assist!
....Like cardinal said these places will be good for the sons and daughters to show Gods love being poored out!
blessings :icon_king:

[Andromeda_Organa]

I think it depends on the Church you go to. I'm at a church right now that's very loving and very accepting and doesn't teach about Hell at all, but I grew up in a fundamentalist one whose fruits you can probably see in some of my posts. :thumbdown:  So, it depends. I think the world would be better off without fundamentalist churches,yes.

[Kimberlaina]

I'm going to have to say I have mixed feelings, too.  When I was in college, I was just about pulled into a very cult-like "Christian" organization, and the fact that I stayed grounded in a mainline church during that time saved me from much greater peril and I am eternally grateful to that congregation.  I also think that it's important for Christians to stay part of a community and not get isolated; I think the Bible backs me up on this.  I'm also a descendant of a couple well-known local pastors and I still hear stories, even generations later, of the good they did in people's lives.  That is hard for me to write off.

With that said, I have a problem with the "us vs. them" mentality that goes on in many churches -- the idea that being inside the church walls magically separates you from all of the evil outside, and the logical continuation of this, the idea that the people inside are better than the people outside.  Where I live, churches also tend to be very focused on building huge buildings and amassing tons of "programming."  I think this causes congregations to miss the boat on actually loving and helping the people around them because the building can do the job!  While I'm venting, I also dislike the fact that churches so often separate families for their programming, e.g. men's Bible study, women's Bible study, etc. 

I guess you could say that I feel that being in a congregation has a specific place and purpose, but many churches either miss the point or try to become everything to everyone.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: We ARE the church. Church is wherever WE are. Blessings....

[Raggedy Anne]

If churches paid taxes, the world would be better off.  Organized churches, that is.  The ones the own a lot of tax-free real estate and run themselves like a business by selling books and tapes and such (many have book/gift shops right inside the church building) and they are allowed to operate tax free.  I think that is wrong.    You would think that the true church would be opposed by the "state" would you not?    The marriage of church and politics is an abomination IMO.

[Molly]

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[Molly]

Faith of our fathers, living still,
In spite of dungeon, fire, and sword;
Oh, how our hearts beat high with joy
Whene'er we hear that glorious Word!

Refrain:
Faith of our fathers, holy faith!
We will be true to thee till death.


Faith of our fathers, faith and prayer
Have kept the children brave and free;
And through the truth that comes from God
His children have true liberty.

Faith of our fathers, we will strive
To win all nations unto thee;
And through the truth that comes from God,
We all shall then be truly free.

Faith of our fathers, we will love
Both friend and foe in all our strife;
And preach thee, too, as love knows how
By kindly words and virtuous life.

--Frederick W. Faber, pub.1849

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN-IPuaLpgQ



32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.



38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

--Hebrews 11

[fire walker]

If churches paid taxes, the world would be better off.  Organized churches, that is.  The ones the own a lot of tax-free real estate and run themselves like a business by selling books and tapes and such (many have book/gift shops right inside the church building) and they are allowed to operate tax free.  I think that is wrong.    You would think that the true church would be opposed by the "state" would you not?    The marriage of church and politics is an abomination IMO.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anne,

Personaly I couldn't agree with you more than I do on this point, the marriage of
church and politics is an abomination in my viewpoint as well.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[whyiloveitaly.com]

You guys ARE my church! And I love you all!

Brian

[Molly]

"Separation of church and state" appears nowhere in our Constitution and is a lie as it is perpetrated by the 'revisionists.'

Our founders were Christians, and it is also a lie that they were not, and the principles we were founded on come right out of the Bible.

This is not to say that many churches today are not misguided and/or being led by wolves in sheep clothing, however, to throw the baby out with the bathwater is a mistake that everyone will regret to the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th generation.

It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles on which freedom can securely stand.

--John Adams, 1776

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Anne... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

If churches paid taxes, the world would be better off.  Organized churches, that is.  The ones the own a lot of tax-free real estate and run themselves like a business by selling books and tapes and such (many have book/gift shops right inside the church building)

Here's how I see CHRIST dealt with this type of agenda:

John 2:14-16 --  And found in the TEMPLE those that SOLD oxen and sheep and doves and the CHANGERS of MONEY sitting... and when He had had made a scourge of small cords, He drove them OUT of the TEMPLE and the sheep, and the oxen and POURED OUT the CHANGERS MONEY and overthrew the tables and said to them: Take these things hence make NOT my Father's house an house of MERCHANDISE...

Also see

Mark 11:15-17 -- And they come to Jerusalem and Jesus went into the TEMPLE and began to CAST OUT them that SOLD AND BOUGHT in the TEMPLE and overthrew the tables of the MONEYCHANGERS, and the seats of them that sold doves... and would not suffer tht any man should carry any vessel through the TEMPLE... and He taught saying unto them:  Is it not WRITTEN, My HOUSE shall be called of ALL NATIONS the HOUSE of PRAYER?  But ...YE... have made it into a DEN of THIEVES...

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[WhiteWings]

(many have book/gift shops right inside the church building)

Here's how I see CHRIST dealt with this type of agenda:

John 2:14-16 --  And found in the TEMPLE those that SOLD oxen and sheep and doves and the CHANGERS of MONEY sitting... and when He had had made a scourge of small cords, He drove them OUT of the TEMPLE and the sheep, and the oxen and POURED OUT the CHANGERS MONEY and overthrew the tables and said to them: Take these things hence make NOT my Father's house an house of MERCHANDISE...

For me an important difference is that the bookshop in the church at least sells religious material (my assumption).
The people Jesus kicked out the temple sold non religious stuff.
I understand a church is not a shop but I wonder if Jesus would have been eqally angry if religious stuff was sold in that temple. (not pagan stuff)

[fire walker]

Thing is we all know that many churches have abused their tax exempt status and by doing so they have hidden behind the clock of tax exempt status to seperate themselves from the state.

At the same time we also all know that right here in the US the State has abused it's power by shuting down some churches they considered not to be politicaly correct.

The organized churches can volanteer to register and file a 990 form with the IRS and many do, by doing so they can show that every dime was used for charity and not for profits.

These days there is always dis agreement
amoung the churches themselves and the politicians as to exactly what is seperation of church and state and what isn't.
presonaly I would consider churches who refuse to disclose what they have used their money for to the IRS as a church seperating itself from the state, yet the IRS is also known to have been involved in corruption itself, so where does the church and state draw lines , why is there disagreement between state and church in all of the religious/ political confusion?

Does the state need approved by the church or does the church need approved by the state? there has to be a practical answer to this and it is within us not of the world,  Babylon had a huge problem in false unity with Religion and Politics coming together in marriage and that is why Babylon fell, is it not?

Peace,
Fire Walker

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW... :Peace:

(many have book/gift shops right inside the church building)

Here's how I see CHRIST dealt with this type of agenda:

John 2:14-16 --  And found in the TEMPLE those that SOLD oxen and sheep and doves and the CHANGERS of MONEY sitting... and when He had had made a scourge of small cords, He drove them OUT of the TEMPLE and the sheep, and the oxen and POURED OUT the CHANGERS MONEY and overthrew the tables and said to them: Take these things hence make NOT my Father's house an house of MERCHANDISE...

For me an important difference is that the bookshop in the church at least sells religious material (my assumption).
The people Jesus kicked out the temple sold non religious stuff.
I understand a church is not a shop but I wonder if Jesus would have been eqally angry if religious stuff was sold in that temple. (not pagan stuff)

The type of "stuff" being sold, was not the point bro... MECHANDISE was the point -- trafficking GOODS for SALE was the point...

That some of the items being sold were named (doves,  sheep, oxen, etc.)  was NOT what CHRIST was upset with here...  :dontknow:

You are welcome to view this as you do WW... but the point was the MONEY CHANGING and the MERCHANDISING (selling for monetary gain), that aroused His anger...

To excuse this activity due to the "type" of MERCHANDISE (IMO) is to miss the point made...

House of MERCHANDISE includes BOOKS, CD's, Tapes, used cars, whatever... Most of these kind of existing "gift shops" sell other peripheral items such as -- crosses, christian "nik-naks" etc...

The House of YHVH is to be COMPLETELY devoted to SPIRITUAL activity...  And CHRIST also noted elsewhere that GOD and MONEY are often found in opposition.  For to serve ONE is to abstain from service to the other...  Which is WHY JESUS not only OBJECTED verbally, but was moved to DISRUPT PHYSICALLY, this activity in the TEMPLE...

Many of those who "run" these "gift shops" are make HANDSOME profit on them... selling them and making MONEY, pedaling the GOSPEL...  :sigh:

Don't get me wrong brother... I don't feel it is a SIN to sell a music CD or a BOOK about GOD... but IN THE TEMPLE which is dedicated to HIM... it is INAPPROPRIATE and nothing should fall under that guise of "religious" oriented MERCHANDISE, as being exempt...

On the contrary... If MONEY is accepted in the name of the LORD... it should be on a "donation" basis, and GIVEN if the party cannot afford a donation...

NEVER "sell" a Bible, rather accept a donation which shall ONLY be put toward obtaining MORE Bibles that can be GIVEN AWAY... NOT with intent to "line the pockets" of the resident Church or Pastor...

My -- :2c:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

The type of "stuff" being sold, was not the point bro... MECHANDISE was the point -- trafficking GOODS for SALE was the point...

That some of the items being sold were named (doves,  sheep, oxen, etc.)  was NOT what CHRIST was upset with here...  :dontknow:

You are welcome to view this as you do WW... but the point was the MONEY CHANGING and the MERCHANDISING (selling for monetary gain), that aroused His anger...
...............
Many of those who "run" these "gift shops" are make HANDSOME profit on them... selling them and making MONEY, pedaling the GOSPEL...  :sigh:

Yeah when greed steps in.... agreed.
But what if all profits go to, for example, food for the very poor?
I'm fully aware that the church is for learning about the teachings of the Bible.
But helping the poor is one of those teachings...
I can't see anyrthing wrong with that.
But if the profit is used for a down payment for the boat of the pa$tor then I can very well agree with your reply.

My :2c:

Spend them in the book stall in church Willie  :happy3:

(BTW, I'm well aware I'm about the only one on this forum that sees no harm in making some money on religious stuff under certain conditions...)

[Molly]

BTW, I'm well aware I'm about the only one on this forum that sees no harm in making some money on religious stuff under certain conditions...)

I don't see any harm in it either.   The church does need money to perpetrate itself as a building with a pastor and with expenses, light, heat, and so forth.

What I see a problem with is when people are bullied into giving, rather than giving from their heart.  Or threatened.  Or told that they will lose or gain favor with God.  Or sold a bill of goods, icons, indulgences, annulments, and so forth.

You have made it--a house of merchandise and a den of thieves.

We know that we are the temple of God, so this is as much an indictment of what is going on inside of us as inside of any church.


1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

BTW, I'm well aware I'm about the only one on this forum that sees no harm in making some money on religious stuff under certain conditions...)

I don't see any harm in it either.   The church does need money to perpetrate itself as a building with a pastor and with expenses, light, heat, and so forth.

There is a LARGE difference between "Making MONEY" (Merchandising), and gaining donational support for the operation of a meeting facility...  :dontknow:

In my life I have attended SEVERAL group churches, where the PASTOR did not get ANY MONEY for what he did...

Matter of fact... If I recollect rightly, ...wasn't Paul a TENTMAKER?  I don't think he recieved a PAYCHECK for his MINISTRY...

He sustained himself by WORKING and the welcoming hospitality of those he served, But He didn't get a PAYCHECK from them...and was not MOTIVATED by the GOSPEL as a "CAREER PATH" as are MOST PASTORS of todays various churches...  These guys even often get a HANDSOME RETIREMENT!

No... I think the ORIGINAL "CHURCH" was "pastored" by men that DONATED their time IN SERVING the LORD and shepherding the SHEEP on His behalf, ...not to gain a PAYCHECK, and CERTAINLY NOT to become RICH as many men have done through the course of time...

Hey, it's a FACT that -- Pat Robertson, Joel Osteen, Oral Roberts, Jack Van Impe, Fred Price, Paul Crouch, Robert Schuller, Jerry Falwell, TD Jakes (to mention just a few), ...and many, many, others are ALL "millionaires" due their (so-called) "CAREER", preaching of the "gospel"!

ALL of them, holders of MUCH PRIVATELY OWNED real estate, bank and expense accounts, automobiles, homes, businesses -- which were directly resultant of MONEYS which came into their hands from "sheep" which were promised "prosperity" by their preaching...  :thumbdown: 

And who in the end really "propered" financially?  Hey -- GOD will BLESS the sheep will be regardless of any self-serving charlatons...

What I see a problem with is when people are bullied into giving, rather than giving from their heart.  Or threatened.  Or told that they will lose or gain favor with God.  Or sold a bill of goods, icons, indulgences, annulments, and so forth.

I also agree with these UNGODLIKE and decieving proddings, which are NOT Scripturally based nor find ANY EXAMPLE or ESTABLISHMENT in the Scriptures...

Many "pastors" poke at the sheep for MONEY constantly -- give your tithe, and then give offering on your increase (saying that you are giving to GOD, when all the time it goes into THEIR interests and holdings)...

Serving MONEY, instead of GIVING of themselves IN SERVICE to the Sheep...  :sigh:

Just curious, ...How much MONEY do you think, ...JESUS got "paid" for -- His time? :JCThink:

You have made it--a house of merchandise and a den of thieves.

And they DID  :sigh: and they DO...  :sigh:  and the beat goes on...  :drummer:  :crywipe:

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[rosered]

Take these things hence make NOT my Father's house an house of MERCHANDISE

Hi  guys thought of  this too ........
  making merchandise of men and men stealers
  taking them away from the TRUTH/LORD

  these types found in 1TIM .  1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

greek 405 andrapodistēs
Pronunciation

än-drä-po-dē-stā's (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

from a derivative of a compound of G435 and G4228



Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer

a) of one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery

b) of one who steals the slaves of others and sells them


  whoa ! :icon_flower: