The sun rises and sets on Free Will

[Scrybe]

I want to talk about our perspective as humans.  But I want to travel back in time several hundred years.  I want to talk about our common sense and what that sense tells us about astronomy.  When we watch a sunrise we see the sun coming up over the horizon.  Then, later, it goes down beneath the horizon.  This is a common experience we all perceive.  Clearly, the sun goes up and down.  This is common sense. 

Ok.  Now we can come back to our current time.  (Unless you are reading this in the future, in which case only set your time machine to 2007.)  Our common experience of the sun rising and setting remains the same.  The commonsense mechanic is incorporated into our parlance.  We don't call it 'Earth rotation'.  We call it 'Sunrise'.  But we have been told by those scientist folk that the sun doesn't actually go up and down.  Most of us believe these scientist folk despite the overwhelming appearance that our senses receive.  They tell us we are rotating at 1000 miles per hour.  My common sense disagrees.  They say our planet is hurtling around the sun at 67,000 miles per hour.  I've held my hand out a car window that was going 70 miles per hour.  My common sense says we can't possibly be spinning at 67,000 miles per hour.  I have to repress my common sense with these ideas about gravity and atmosphere and other such theories.  It seems the more advanced our science gets, the more I have to repress my natural observations.  What this teaches me is that there are times where we have to suppress our instinctual, observational sense, and go with a theory that accounts for more than our perspective on things can account for.  If we insist that the way things appear to be from our vantage point is the way things must be, we will not be able to explain a great many things.  If we in the northern hemisphere insist that the winter is always cold, we can't explain how the southern hemisphere gets hot in the winter.  If we insist that the sun must go around the earth we just can't account for any number of astronomical occurrences.  We say that - despite all appearances to the contrary - the truth is different than we thought.

When I try to contemplate the sovereignty of God I have two options.  I can put limits on it to account for the things that I see that don't seem to jive with the concept.  Or I can accept that, like the sun "rising", my perspective on the situation may not be the definitive watermark that I'd like it to be.  My common sense may be commonly wrong.  I was brought up in a family and denomination that is adamant about Free Willâ,,¢.  The term is bandied about as though it were a biblical phrase.  As though Paul had written a book about it, or David made a Psalm about it.  It's our fallback position when we have to defend our religion from heathens who use the Problem of Evil attack.
Well I don't advocate using that defense any more.  It doesn't hold up, and worse, it degrades God.  However, I have no qualms with speaking as though we do have Free Willâ,,¢.  Why?  The same reason I don't correct people when they use the word "sunrise".  It's common parlance.  It speaks to our perceptions and makes sense in our context.  In that sense, we do have Free Willâ,,¢.  That is, our thinking takes place within the suppositional framework of Free Willâ,,¢.  Paul writes about our choices and the results of them.  David sings about his will, the freedoms and responsibilities he has.  What do I care if most people erroneously slip the word "free" before "will"?  Just like the sunrise, it is our intended perception.  Intended by a sovereign God.  Only by reasoning beyond our 'common sense' experience (What act can we do that is totally un-caused?  How can an omniscient God create beings who can surprise Him?  -and no, saying "Free Willâ,,¢" doesn't actually answer the question.) can we determine that our wills are not free from every possible cause and effect.  And when we come to that conclusion we have to defy our contrarian disposition that screams about control and love and robots and puppets. 

So will the sun ever "set" on this mental construct we call Free Willâ,,¢?  I don't think so.  It's the way God designed us to think and to interact and most importantly, to love.  It's how we process responsibility, good and evil, etc.  I think it's just an oversimplification.  The same way Darwin thought that cells were just little bags of fluid.  And the way geologists pictured the inside of the earth until recently.  When a thing is uncertain or hard to study we make overly simple interpretations of it.  Microscopes showed us the incredibly complex machinery and variety of cellular life.  And new studies of the earth are showing us that the simple onion-layer model of the planet is woefully insufficient to explain our findings. 

And so it is with Free Willâ,,¢.  The billions and trillions of factors that go into making our decisions are simply too complicated to mentally digest.  So we have made a working model of what we think drives us and our wills.  We say, "Death is the only inevitability.  Everything else is a choice."  And I agree with this.  I just say that there is a far more complicated explanation for our choices than a Free Willâ,,¢.  But that ultimately it can be traced back to a very simple explanation: God's will.  We may not perceive it.  It may befuddle our small minds.  But those factors can't make it any more or less true.  The fact that we still call it a sunrise doesn't change the course of the heavenly bodies.  The fact that we think our wills are free doesn't change God's omniscience or our predestination.   

 

[Kimberlaina]

I'll admit I only skimmed this post, but I like the sunrise/sunset analogy.  It's a great example of something you can see with your own eyes without fully realizing the truth.  One thing that those who advocate Free Will forget is that God created us -- and our wills.  If God shaped our wills when he mysteriously wove us together in our mother's wombs, isn't that enough to believe that everything can be traced back to Him?  Interesting post :)

[GraceFull]

I just say that there is a far more complicated explanation for our choices than a Free Willâ,,¢.  But that ultimately it can be traced back to a very simple explanation: God's will.  We may not perceive it.  It may befuddle our small minds.  But those factors can't make it any more or less true.  The fact that we still call it a sunrise doesn't change the course of the heavenly bodies.  The fact that we think our wills are free doesn't change God's omniscience or our predestination.

:goodpost: :happyclap: :gimmefive: :clapping:

[Pierac]

Good post Scrybe!   :dsunny:



Paul

[Caitlyn Alexander]

I do not believe in free will personally.  I think it is a mythic construct, the way most people view it, that is.
If you want to know more about how I view it, this article is a pretty good parallel to my view, except I personally do NOT perceive a problem with "free will vs. foreknowledge" -- I believe knowing ahead of time does not necessarily mean God MAKES (forces) things to happen a certain way -- so that point is moot.  But the rest of the article describes how I view things.

I would love to discuss the ramifications if anyone is interested AND can take it in SHORT bytes, a bit at a time... (I don't do well reading long things on the internet -- I lose focus too easily).

Article is here:  http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
I saw it posted somewhere (here?  elsewhere?  not sure) and thought it was brilliant.
For starters ...
"...it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us 'to will'] and TO DO [God causes us 'to do'] of His good pleasure" [to bring about His intentions] (Phil. 2:13).

[firstborn888]

I'll chime in with what I posted somewhere else:
  People struggle greatly over non-free will. It's hard to accept, because it SEEMS like we just do what we want - but what determines what we want? It's not like we created our own dispositions. I've given up trying to explain to people that 'free will' is an illusion.

   - byron

[Kratos]

We have had this discussion many times and it usually comes down to differing definitions of what constitutes free will.

To one side, it is only free will if decisions and choices are made free from any outside influence and we have the power to do what we decide we want to do. To me, this is omniscience and only God is able to decide things free of outside influences and do what He wills.

To the other side, free will is the ability to make choices regardless of whether we can accomplish what we want or how our choices are influenced by God and others. With this definition, all have it except those in a coma.

In the end, those who have the first definition come away still convinced that no one but God has free will and those who hold to the second definition come away still convinced that all have free will (except the guy who is unconscious or in a coma).

John

[noname]

1. if there is no free will and all responsibility and accountability rests on God shoulders for all our actions then the lake of fire is unfair...
2. if there is no free will then Yeshua's and the Prophets' words to "draw near to God and He will draw near to you" is a lie...

people who claim there is no free will are running from their accountability for not obeying God...obeying God results in positive life-giving actions...not airy-fairy "spiritual" stuff...

Yeshua said himself that "ALL men would be judged according to their deeds done on earth"...NOT according to beliefs, spirituality or anything else

WE are responsible and accoutable for what we do on earth, putting everything on God's shoulders is a cop out!

[Redlettervoice]

There seems to be a "time" when there is FREE WILL........and answerable, as NOname
wrote there.........

Let's consider Peter, and what Jesus said: "WHEN you were young, you went where YOU will,
but when you are older, ANOTHER shall gird thee....and carry you where YOU would NOT!

Did the "free will" of Peter become extinct at that point and did God's will take over?

Listen to this in Hebrews:

He "taketh away the first" WILL, that He may establish the SECOND, by the which WILL
we are .......thus and thus.......

Do you think it has anything to do with "at the time appointed" ye shall be under "tutors
and govenors" but when the time appointed of the Father comes, ......?

Seems like both could be true, just not at the same time in a persons life?
God can do anything He chooses.......ALL the time.....
Seems to be only so long that Peter could..........

[Caitlyn Alexander]

1. if there is no free will and all responsibility and accountability rests on God shoulders for all our actions then the lake of fire is unfair...

Bingo - which is part of why I don't believe in the burning ET hell.

2. if there is no free will then Yeshua's and the Prophets' words to "draw near to God and He will draw near to you" is a lie...

no they are not.  where do you get THAT from?

people who claim there is no free will are running from their accountability for not obeying God...obeying God results in positive life-giving actions...not airy-fairy "spiritual" stuff...
...... WE are responsible and accoutable for what we do on earth, putting everything on God's shoulders is a cop out!

OK at this point I'm calling foul ball.  This is NOT respectful of others' views with whom you disagree.  This is passing judgment on those who see it differently from you and ascribing a nefarious motive to them for holding the position they (we) do.  I call foul ball, bad play, whatever.  You are entitled to your opinion and view on the subject.  You are NOT entitled to pass judgment on your brothers and sisters who hold a different view.  End of story.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote noname

1. if there is no free will and all responsibility and accountability rests on God shoulders for all our actions then the lake of fire is unfair...

You know this is a UR forum right?  :icon_king:

quote noname

2. if there is no free will then Yeshua's and the Prophets' words to "draw near to God and He will draw near to you" is a lie...

no, not a lie, no different that saying "if you exercise you will be in better shape", of course exercise is know by the flesh and so is obvious to us, and we know that no thing of God is known by the flesh, but only by the spirit, and God chooses whom he chooses

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

but lets not confuse "draw near to God and He will draw near to you", that those whom God has not chosen yet would actually listen to this - it would be foolishness to them, but God has laid a path in the bible for those who he has chosen to know him right now and the scripture -  "draw near to God and He will draw near to you" is part of that path for them.

[Caitlyn Alexander]

We have had this discussion many times and it usually comes down to differing definitions of what constitutes free will.

To one side, it is only free will if decisions and choices are made free from any outside influence and we have the power to do what we decide we want to do. To me, this is omniscience and only God is able to decide things free of outside influences and do what He wills.

To the other side, free will is the ability to make choices regardless of whether we can accomplish what we want or how our choices are influenced by God and others. With this definition, all have it except those in a coma.

In the end, those who have the first definition come away still convinced that no one but God has free will and those who hold to the second definition come away still convinced that all have free will (except the guy who is unconscious or in a coma).

I don't see it so cut & dried & black & white.  I see it as a spectrum.  It is not FREE will because the will itself -- its components, raw data, functionality, and its health and strength, even -- is determined by factors over which it has no control, period.  There is nothing "free" about that at all.  We are not "free" to operate in some invisible hermetically-sealed vacuum bubble where the realities of our limitations, sins, inherited tendencies, programming, misconceptions, ignorance, etc. simply cease to affect us for some magical moment of volition flex training.  Nope, sorry -- the faculty of volition (the will) is embedded inside us just like the rest of our faculties of perception and mental/emotional engagement with the world.

[Caitlyn Alexander]

Let's consider Peter, and what Jesus said: "WHEN you were young, you went where YOU will,
but when you are older, ANOTHER shall gird thee....and carry you where YOU would NOT!

Did the "free will" of Peter become extinct at that point and did God's will take over?

Oh WOW!  That would be WONDERFUL!!   :bigGrin:

Listen to this in Hebrews:

He "taketh away the first" WILL, that He may establish the SECOND, by the which WILL
we are .......thus and thus.......

Do you think it has anything to do with "at the time appointed" ye shall be under "tutors
and govenors" but when the time appointed of the Father comes, ......?

Seems like both could be true, just not at the same time in a persons life?
God can do anything He chooses.......ALL the time.....
Seems to be only so long that Peter could..........

This is amazing - thank you for posting it!!   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :bgdance:

[GG]

Red, your post really warmed the cockles of my heart.   I hadn't "seen" it like that before.
Thank you.

Marie. :icon_flower:

[firstborn888]

people who claim there is no free will are running from their accountability for not obeying God...obeying God results in positive life-giving actions...not airy-fairy "spiritual" stuff...
...... WE are responsible and accoutable for what we do on earth, putting everything on God's shoulders is a cop out!

OK at this point I'm calling foul ball.  This is NOT respectful of others' views with whom you disagree.  This is passing judgment on those who see it differently from you and ascribing a nefarious motive to them for holding the position they (we) do.  I call foul ball, bad play, whatever.  You are entitled to your opinion and view on the subject.  You are NOT entitled to pass judgment on your brothers and sisters who hold a different view.  End of story.

Like I said Caitlyn, I gave up trying :bigGrin:

[noname]

for Caitlyn:
Rev20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

I'm not judging anyone...Yeshua says that at the white throne judgment...the dead shall be judged according to their works.
Why would God judge someone according to their works if the person has no responsibility or accountability for his works? Can you see any logic in that?
Now...right now...I can choose to do good or do evil...just like the choice God gave Adam & Eve...they chose to listen to the Devil...or did God's will force them to do so?


as for comments made that "this is a UR site", here...please listen to what the Saviour says:

Rev21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev21:27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life

[arcticmonster2003]

quote by noname

Rev21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Well, you probably haven't read my view on this, so I will state it

Yes, we are all here, having our part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone - all accounted for - not a good man in the bunch

Malachi 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Matthew 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:12  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 13:42  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:49  For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Luke 12:49  I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?


Micah 7:2  The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.
Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Romans 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.


Zechariah 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


Ah, yes, the baptism of fire....

I believe this is where we have hell, hades, the false prophet, wailing and gnashing of teeth, the beast, satan, death, all murderers, adulterers, liars, every foul spirit, and every unclean and hateful bird. - all of these things are here - both in the mouths of people and in their beliefs and thoughts, and in physical being (seen) and spiritual being (unseen) - they are real, and they are here with us. (thats why we talk about them so much). Just my  :2c: - or does this not accurately describe this world?

[noname]

arctic I know you believe earth is hell...I can understand you're reasoning...

as for what I said about drawing near to God and He'll draw near to you...it is the ACT of repentance...

now we can sit here arguing who brings man to repentance...God or man "coming to his senses" as described in the parable of the lost son...but if it was purely God and man had no part to play (or will) then John the Baptist would never have been...he who called Israel to repentance so that their hearts be put right with God again

God uses people to do his work in partnership with Him...else we can all sit back and wait for Him to show up

[FineLinen]

The Hornets

To the tune of This Is Like Heaven To Me

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/i/l/tilhv2me.htm

If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urgings to make yourself scarce
You'd want to get out, don't you see.
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
Throw you out of the window, oh no,
They would not compel you to go 'gainst your will
But they would just make you willing to go.

Chorus

He does not compel us to go, no, no
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But he just makes us willing to go.

When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God
And grieved Him because of their sin,
God sent along hornets to bring them to time
And help his own people to win.
The hornets persuaded them that it was best
To go quickly, and not to go slow:
God did not compel them to go 'gainst their will
But he just made them willing to go.

Chorus

He does not compel us to go, no, no
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But he just makes us willing to go.

When Jonah was sent to the work of the Lord
The outlook was not very bright;
He had never done such a hard thing before
So he backed and ran off from the fight.
But God sent a big fish to swallow him up,
The story I'm sure you all know,
He did not compel him to go 'gainst his will
But he just made him willing to go.

Chorus

He does not compel us to go, no, no
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But he just makes us willing to go.

When Moses was sent to lead Israel out
To Canaan's rich fruit-bearing land.
Resisting his spirit they worshipped a calf,
And refused to obey God's command.
God did not compel them to go to the land
Which with wine, milk, and honey did flow,
But fed them on manna for forty long years
'Till he got them ready to go.

Chorus

He does not compel us to go, no, no
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go against our will
But he just makes us willing to go.

When Balaam was sent to the Moabite kingd,
And wanted things run his own way,
His mule, ever faithful, spoke at the right time,
Made him willing God's will to obey.
God can use any man, since He used Balaam's mule,
For He is Almighty you know;
He does not compel us to go, 'against our will
But He just makes us willing to go.

Chorus

He does not compel us to go, no, no
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go against our will
But he just makes us willing to go

[Caitlyn Alexander]

for Caitlyn:
Rev20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

I'm not judging anyone...Yeshua says that at the white throne judgment...the dead shall be judged according to their works.
Why would God judge someone according to their works if the person has no responsibility or accountability for his works? Can you see any logic in that?

Yes, you clearly, in my opinion, passed judgment upon the motives of those who view things differently from you.  You stated this:

people who claim there is no free will are running from their accountability for not obeying God...

Which in essence breaks the 9th commandment to not bear false witness against your neighbor, because the reasons for not believing in free will have nothing to do with "running from accountability", yet you say this is what all people who disbelieve the "free will" notion are doing.  That is a judgment on your part.  You do not see inside my heart or anyone else's here.  You cannot make that claim and by doing so you impugn others motives and that's not cool any way you slice it.
Sorry, but those are the facts as I see it.  Being judged in the end for their works have nothing to do with it.  The Bible states clearly that it is GOD who works IN us BOTH to WILL and to DO of HIS good pleasure (Phil 2:13 I think, if I recall correctly.)  That means it is God's work, not some human "free will".  And of those not so blessed, the Bible says they are taken captive by the Devil at HIS will.  So either way there is no "free" will -- one is exercised by the Spirit of God or by the Devil (which I take to extend to our own human sinful natures since theologically speaking sin originates with the devil.)

[arcticmonster2003]

quote noname

God uses people to do his work in partnership with Him...else we can all sit back and wait for Him to show up

Yes, I agree, this is what I look forward to, hoping God will perform his work through me, and always hoping for greater works.
I do witness to people (planting seeds), but do hope for God to do greater works through me.
But I can't, on my own accord (will) do Gods work, because Gods work is not done by my will, but by his. If it was my will, I would walk into a hospital right now and heal everyone there so they would praise God - but since I have no power apart from Gods will, probably about the only healing that would happen is "Laughter is the best medicine".
As I come closer to God, and his will becomes clearer, and he has tested me and tried me and refined me to his wills delight, and increases my faith, then it is my hope that he accomplish great works through me. We are always to hope for the greater gifts. But by our own wills about all we can do is make people mad, for we have no power in ourselves apart from Gods will. :dontknow:

[noname]

for Caitlyn:

Yes, you clearly, in my opinion, passed judgment upon the motives of those who view things differently from you.

okay...I apologise that my opinion could be seen as judgmental...

let me restate:
it is MY opinion..."people who claim there is no free will are running from their accountability for not obeying God..."
better?
may I have "an opinion"?
you are free to have a go at my opinion

maybe we should define this illusive "free will"...I'd rather use the term "choice"...do we have choices in life?
can I choose God or Satan? or is that impossible as God will force me either way according to His will?

animals cannot choose...they are driven by instinct...but Man can choose
therefore...I choose Life and not Death...can I do that?

[firstborn888]

animals cannot choose...they are driven by instinct...but Man can choose
therefore...I choose Life and not Death...can I do that?

If you see you 'will'. If you do not see you 'will' not.

So do you 'see' what I mean? If you do, you 'will' agree, but if you don't, you 'will' not agree.

(OMG, and I said I wouldn't try to explain this anymore. I guess I'm not as 'free' to choose against my desire ('will') to explain things as I thought I was :Oops:

[noname]

animals cannot choose...they are driven by instinct...but Man can choose
therefore...I choose Life and not Death...can I do that?

If you see you 'will'. If you do not see you 'will' not.

So do you 'see' what I mean? If you do, you 'will' agree, but if you don't, you 'will' not agree.

(OMG, and I said I wouldn't try to explain this anymore. I guess I'm not as 'free' to choose against my desire ('will') to explain things as I thought I was :Oops:

uhuh...have you been staying in the "pot smoking thread" too long?
:winkgrin: just a leetle joky (keeping things "light"...know what I mean?)

[firstborn888]

uhuh...have you been staying in the "pot smoking thread" too long?
:winkgrin: just a leetle joky (keeping things "light"...know what I mean?)

Yes