Even Wickedness Chastises

[Tim B]

Jeremiah 2:19 (Amplified Bible)

19Your own wickedness shall chasten and correct you, and your backslidings and desertion of faith shall reprove you. Know therefore and recognize that this is an evil and bitter thing: [first,] you have forsaken the Lord your God; [second,] you are indifferent to Me and the fear of Me is not in you, says the Lord of hosts.

I find this pretty interesting.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen it is......it is part of what He gave me to explain the principle of the 'purgatory' for lack of a better word. Blessings....

[fire walker]

There seems to be a mindset of belief amoung many folks that somehow the wicked never suffer in this life and that it is only others who suffer at the hands of the wicked.

However how do we (mankind) measure suffering and chastisment? It appears to me that suffering and chastisment are amoung those things that can't be measured by man.
Personaly I believe people like Stalin, Hitler, Reverend Jim Jones and countless others who have done so wickedly in this world have suffered in ways that we can't see, sometimes it was great suffering and abuse they went through sometime earlier in their life that they lashed out at the world with revenge in mind, and after these offenses and crimes against humanity have been committed they suffer inwardly in ways that even they themselves are not always aware and they live in fear.                                           

It is usually amoung this fundimentalist to the letter mindset that the temptation to recompense evil for evil equals justice, the old eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth mosiac law keeping to the letter.

We have laws in place by legislation that if broken the punishment or chastisment for breaking or offending these laws is handled in a court of law, we have a jury to decide guilt or innocence based on evidence provided in a case, then we have misdemeanors and felonies, some crimes are much more serious than others, and if found guilty a judge decides the type and amount of punishment for the crime that is before the court. Even  the best of legal systems ever put in place by man fall far short of Gods glory especially when we consider that there is corruption to be found even within the legal systems of men, yet without laws and courts we would have no legal protections in this world either.

Anyway considering that even amoung men we asign more punishment in duration and time to the more serious offenders than we do to the lesser offenders, just think then for a minute if man recognizes lesser offenses from greater offenses how much more God sees everything that needs to be seen and his justice is not understood by mankind because God see things  that man can't see and only God has the ability to measure these things perfectly balanced with mercy and justice for ALL in the ultimate finish.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[Dallas]

   19"Your own wickedness will correct you,
         And your apostasies will reprove you;
         Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter
         For you to forsake the LORD your God,
         And the dread of Me is not in you," declares the Lord GOD of hosts.

I wonder what you find interesting...

God has let them come into suffering for their own deeds. This is what was promised from thier covenant agreement. They agreed that if they forsook God then God would allow their responsibility for thier actions to consume them?

Unless you somehow think this is a curse upon us? Because that was the old covenant agreement and we agren't held to it.

[Tim B]

   19"Your own wickedness will correct you,
         And your apostasies will reprove you;
         Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter
         For you to forsake the LORD your God,
         And the dread of Me is not in you," declares the Lord GOD of hosts.

I wonder what you find interesting...

God has let them come into suffering for their own deeds. This is what was promised from thier covenant agreement. They agreed that if they forsook God then God would allow their responsibility for thier actions to consume them?

Unless you somehow think this is a curse upon us? Because that was the old covenant agreement and we agren't held to it.

I think it's interesting because I see no reason that, today, wickedness does not also chastise and correct those who partake in it. It's just another method within God's plan to draw man closer to Him.

Orthodox Christianity says that sins ultimately leads to eternal torment or annihilation in Hell.
Scripture seems to suggest that sin leads to chastisement, correction and ultimately to God Himself.

[Beloved Servant]

Adam missed the mark.

Jesus hit it!

[Tim B]

Adam missed the mark.

Jesus hit it!

:thumbsup:

[Zeek]

   19"Your own wickedness will correct you,
         And your apostasies will reprove you;
         Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter
         For you to forsake the LORD your God,
         And the dread of Me is not in you," declares the Lord GOD of hosts.

I wonder what you find interesting...

God has let them come into suffering for their own deeds. This is what was promised from thier covenant agreement. They agreed that if they forsook God then God would allow their responsibility for thier actions to consume them?

Unless you somehow think this is a curse upon us? Because that was the old covenant agreement and we agren't held to it.

Scripture seems to suggest that sin leads to chastisement, correction and ultimately to God Himself.

Being a "son" leads to chastisement.   

I don't see sin as leading to chastisement.

Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name forever and ever.

[Tim B]

   19"Your own wickedness will correct you,
         And your apostasies will reprove you;
         Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter
         For you to forsake the LORD your God,
         And the dread of Me is not in you," declares the Lord GOD of hosts.

I wonder what you find interesting...

God has let them come into suffering for their own deeds. This is what was promised from thier covenant agreement. They agreed that if they forsook God then God would allow their responsibility for thier actions to consume them?

Unless you somehow think this is a curse upon us? Because that was the old covenant agreement and we agren't held to it.

Scripture seems to suggest that sin leads to chastisement, correction and ultimately to God Himself.

Being a "son" leads to chastisement.   

I don't see sin as leading to chastisement.

Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name forever and ever.

Jeremiah 2:19 (Amplified Bible)

19Your own wickedness shall chasten and correct you, and your backslidings and desertion of faith shall reprove you. Know therefore and recognize that this is an evil and bitter thing: [first,] you have forsaken the Lord your God; [second,] you are indifferent to Me and the fear of Me is not in you, says the Lord of hosts.

I'm just quoting the Scripture. <_< ... >_>

BTW: what do you think we should take away from the verse you quoted? God might do away with the wicked in the sense he did with Saul before he became Paul, but I can't imagine it means permanent annihilation, less UR be proven false and (dare I say) God unloving.

Note, in the Greek it seems to say "to the age and futurity". Not necessarily "forever and ever." (Although "futurity" might suggest for all time.)

[Zeek]

   19"Your own wickedness will correct you,
         And your apostasies will reprove you;
         Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter
         For you to forsake the LORD your God,
         And the dread of Me is not in you," declares the Lord GOD of hosts.

I wonder what you find interesting...

God has let them come into suffering for their own deeds. This is what was promised from thier covenant agreement. They agreed that if they forsook God then God would allow their responsibility for thier actions to consume them?

Unless you somehow think this is a curse upon us? Because that was the old covenant agreement and we agren't held to it.

Scripture seems to suggest that sin leads to chastisement, correction and ultimately to God Himself.

Being a "son" leads to chastisement.   

I don't see sin as leading to chastisement.

Psa 9:5  Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name forever and ever.

Jeremiah 2:19 (Amplified Bible)

19Your own wickedness shall chasten and correct you, and your backslidings and desertion of faith shall reprove you. Know therefore and recognize that this is an evil and bitter thing: [first,] you have forsaken the Lord your God; [second,] you are indifferent to Me and the fear of Me is not in you, says the Lord of hosts.

I'm just quoting the Scripture. <_< ... >_>

BTW: what do you think we should take away from the verse you quoted? God might do away with the wicked in the sense he did with Saul before he became Paul, but I can't imagine it means permanent annihilation, less UR be proven false and (dare I say) God unloving.

Note, in the Greek it seems to say "to the age and futurity". Not necessarily "forever and ever." (Although "futurity" might suggest for all time.)

wow, great verse.  thank you.  Sure seems to go opposite of Hebrews where talks of son's being chastised/judged, and bastards not. 

thanks.

[jabcat]

Hi guys.  I vote for both, and some of what I get out of it is this.  Scenario #1 (the Jeremiah verse, etc.) - living a life apart from Christ/God, not living in and enjoying the benefits of the Kingdom, is chastisement in and of itself.  My loss of joy, peace, and assurance that comes from knowing God - thus my sin chastises me.  I experience loss.  I reap what I sow.

Scenario #2 (New Covenant, "saved" relationship) - being a "son", where my Father then directly, actively disciplines me for my own good and for my continued growth in Him;  His actively "working all things together for good for those that love Him and are called according to His purpose" - being chastised as a son, which is to not be despised.  It is, in a sense, assurance of kinship/relationship.

Both chastisement, but one as not yet in relationship/obedience as I sow to the wind/flesh and reap the whirlwind/corruption - the other as a son, out of love receiving corrective discipline.

God's blessing, James.

[V.I.D.]

Or translated in a normal language :
When you make a mistake and feel bad ,you will change and not make the same mistake .

Well that is good in princible ,but not that good in reality ,because it hurts alot. ALOT !
Sorry to be truthfull ,but i rather be a dreamer ,atleast this way i may want good without the desire for people to be hurt in order to learn .

[Beloved Servant]

this way i may want good without the desire for people to be hurt in order to learn

[V.I.D.]

Ok this what you say is that you want to be chastised ,because in this way you may not want people to be hurt in order to learn ?

That is not bad ,but i also dont want to feel ALOT of pain ,because in this way i may not want for other people to be hurt in order to learn .
That is why i said i am a dreamer  . The imposible is that you can learn without being hurt ,or the need to be hurt ,so now you know why i dont want to be hurt in order to know and i could have learned this without being hurt . Imposible ? its seems when believe it is imposible .
Posible ? Yes  .
I believe its posible . But i dont control this world and cant make myself learn without the need to be hurt sometimes .This is partly why i am in a conflict with God . But i say partly .

I hope i interpreted what you said properly 'cause you said it shortly .
I admire your view aswell. Its your choice what to accept and like and if this is what you want and accept this way then its all cool.
You are a smart and good person and that is nice !

Btw : how did you made those words moove like that ? :bigGrin:

[Beloved Servant]

TO THE HEBREWS: 12;
12:1 Therefore, surrounded as we are by such a vast cloud of witnesses, let us fling aside every encumbrance and the sin that so readily entangles our feet. And let us run with patient endurance the race that lies before us,

12:2 simply fixing our gaze upon Jesus, our Prince Leader in the faith, who will also award us the prize. He, for the sake of the joy which lay before Him, patiently endured the cross, looking with contempt upon its shame, and afterwards seated Himself-- where He still sits--at the right hand of the throne of God.

I'm still not sure where your lack of vision is. The plan is plain. You are His joy.

[WhiteWings]

Ok this what you say is that you want to be chastised ,because in this way you may not want people to be hurt in order to learn ?

VID, it depends a bit on how you read chastised. It's not very plesant. But also it's not torture.
I think the Bible even teach everyone will get his/her chastising.

Btw : how did you made those words moove like that ? :bigGrin:

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[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother VID!  :cloud9:

Btw : how did you made those words moove like that ? :bigGrin:

When you REPLY... above there are icons beginning at the left with B [bold] then I [italics]... if you "highlight" the text you wish to "MOVE"... go to the 7th icon over, which shows an "M" moving... [<--M] click on that, and the "highlighted text" will "move"!

Peace bro... like this:

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[WhiteWings]

Jeremiah 2:19 (Amplified Bible)

19Your own wickedness shall chasten and correct you, and your backslidings and desertion of faith shall reprove you. Know therefore and recognize that this is an evil and bitter thing: [first,] you have forsaken the Lord your God; [second,] you are indifferent to Me and the fear of Me is not in you, says the Lord of hosts.

I find this pretty interesting.

Interesting indeed. And much easier to understand when the exact defenitions of the words are known.
Basicly all sins are judged. And always leads to torment/chastening. And then we are approved.
If you look up the words in bold below you will see the verse makes a lot of sense


Teaching + Chastened
paideu,w paideuo {pahee-dyoo'-o}
Meaning: 
to train children
to be instructed or taught or learn
to cause one to learn
to chastise
to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
of God
to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
to chastise with blows, to scourge
of a father punishing his son
of a judge ordering one to be scourged

Grace
ca,rij charis {khar'-ece}
Meaning: 
grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Judged
kri,nw krino {kree'-no}
Meaning: 
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
to approve, esteem, to prefer
to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
to determine, resolve, decree
to judge
to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
to rule, govern
to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
to contend together, of warriors and combatants
to dispute
in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law
[/quote]

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
=> gold..silver... He is a refiners fire...


Judged => Chastened => Teaching => Grace
God corrects His children by teaching them, so He can approve them with love