Depression and Anxiety Question

[Caitlyn Alexander]

Question: how can you tell the difference between clinical depression (a medical/mental problem) and "dark night of the soul" (a spiritual issue)?
I've been wondering that for quite some time.  :mblush:

Moderators:  if this is not appropriate here please feel free to move ... (and sorry)

[Kratos]

Cait,

It is kind of after the fact, but we can know the source by watching the fruit. It is like asking how to tell the difference between conviction and condemnation. One leads us to God and one drives us away from God.

Mental illness that torments and tortures and hurts is not of God. It makes following God difficult. But the other draws us to Him as we grow more in love and trust of Him.

John

[Nancy]

Hi there Caitlyn,
If you are talking from experience then i'm sorry to hear about that. Well my pennys' worth, is that i had a breakdown and became very depressed but i think i also had a time of searching for the truth about God.  Depression make me feel that i didn't care if God existed or not, but the other i cared tremendously about God.
But all in all it was one of the best things that happened to me.
Does this help?
Godbless
Nancy

[gatheredfragments]

thats an interesting q.

i'll jump in ...i was diagnosed bi polar some 17 years ago.  for many years  i was on drugs to soothe this 'beast' lets say inside of me. but the drugs never did the job they didnt HEAL.

Since my REAL acceptance of Jesus as my King, and the loving care of a fellow UR believer, who willingly took on my tortured soul without abandoning me in the worst moments, Jesus has healed me and I no longer need meds.  I have not been on meds for psyche depression for over nine months, i see clinical counselors, i have a file as thick as a dictionary, and my doctors are amazed.

My Psychiatrist is Jewish.  My counselor is Christian.  But, neither of their methods were able to 'restore' me, and they tried many.  It was a friend, who brought me to the truth of UR and worked with me in study that has done the work.

In my opinion, the difference is in the treatment as to what a depression really is. 

If it is soothed with drugs, and with coddling and enabling, its not glory to God in any way at all.

But, if it is the restoring of that soul by the love of Christ, in the Word, in daily action, in submission, and suffering, it becomes totally of God.

I would call it human to suffer depression, the world is a tough place to survive. 

Legion was all that in depression, a vile cruel creature.  The LOVE of Jesus, restored the man, who wanted to follow him, but Jesus sent him home, where was likely , as i understand it the greater witness for the glory of God.  For it is likely that what created that creature was its environment. 

You hear a lot of people tell you that the 'battle is in the mind'.  To a degree this is real.  Its in the mind, and the heart, both submitting to Jesus. 

Depression comes of no discipline, no love that guides and keeps us.  Untreated the depressed person is like the old sheep in the flock, and the shepherd has to break their legs to get them to submit, re-learn, and then stay in the flock. 

I've been in support groups, and through years of therapy, but what heals is the love of Christ. 

Jesus Christ can heal anything....clinical/mental illness....is nothing to the power of that love...that love that restores.

I've been doing some reading on split brain surgery, and the brains communications to itself and the body when damaged, when whole, and when separated in surgery to two seperate hemispheres.  All that science attempts to explain, cannot be concluded.  For every single explanation they find, there is always and exception to the rule, a 'miracle' of will and communication of the brain to understand.  I see a micro of the universe in our brains.  Left or Right, analytical or holistic, logical or creative, Jesus in both places, not shut out by the world, will overcome.

The depressed person.....regardless of their diagnosis....suffers the worst of all things...they do not love themselves...and therefore do not know how to love others.

Praise God for the restoration of love in all human life.  Amen. 

[Cardinal]

 :2c: Hi; This is a tricky question and I really hate to keep going back to this, in a way, but I have to speak out of experiences that came from the Lord's "boot camp" and this is what I was led by Him to walk thru initially.

The fact is, ALL things that are not like Christ's Spirit, are another spirit. We were deceived and conditioned by the world, our own carnal mind and it's trappings of intellect, to think things were normal events/conditions, that were really not normal, and by normal I mean, Christ is the only true measure of what we are supposed to be expressing, ie. what is "normal".

The problem is, we are so many generations removed from Adam, and all those generations missed the mark also, so we are in our hearts, an accumulation of all the wickedness in high places that has ever been on the face of the earth. This is why He rebuked the Pharisees over not cleaning the inside of the cup, but the outside only and pronouncing it/themselves clean. And why the wheat and the tares are raised up together.....because they share a vessel.  :mshock:

Now having said this, it was not our fault and no finger is being pointed here, this is just a statement of fact as it was revealed and witnessed to me. We were lowered into this bondage of corruption, and that is the corruption He's talking about, ie. that which corrupts the conversation of the Christ that is in us. Thus, out of the abundance of the heart, a man speaketh. We were intended as a vessel for HIM to speak out of. Now take this thought; what if you didn't speak again until HE spoke thru you? How long would it be? :footmouth: Me too, most days, unless I'm in prayer and He chooses to break thru the mess.

:cloud9: Having said what we were destined to become, now let me tell you how it's operating in us at present. You discern the spirits by identifying who, it lifts up. The principle was shown to us on the day of Pentecost, when the Spirit praised God's wonderful works among men. The spirit always exalts the one who sent it, and it was said on the day of Pentecost that the Spirit exalted God. So by the same measure, when something in your mind/heart or on the outside of you, is telling you things that are contrary to what Christ's Spirit has said about anything, INCLUDING ABOUT YOU, sons of God, it is another spirit, it is ANTI-Christ. The mind is a battleground, which is the reason why the first article of armor given was the HELMET of salvation. The mind is a womb and it will reproduce whatever seed is planted in it. A thought comes in like a seed, you entertain it and water it, it forms an attitude, and then you act on that attitude, thus the seed bore fruit.

So you fight it the way Jesus did......it is written, it is written, it is written. When the written Word is spoken, the Spirit Word/breath comes to perform it, in you and around you. The dark night of the soul, is in reality, the Spirit of God uprooting that which was planted in us while we slept, and it's a long process. But the good news is, in the end of this world (your reign), He sends His reapers the angels/messages/messengers in and they gather out of His Kingdom (know ye not the kingdom of God is within you?) those things which offend and do iniquity. The only thing that offends in His Kingdom are those things that were planted there while we slept.

I asked Him when I was going thru a deliverance myself (one of many), why He couldn't just take out all the generational tares all at once, out of someone that was willing. He told me if He did, the person would die from the shock.  :mshock:

We are not who we think we are, it's just the tares that have been in us, most of the time from the beginning, ie. so long an influence we THINK that it's just us, but in reality, it's not. This is why He said our identity is HID IN CHRIST. We truly do not know who we are until we know Him, and then He begins to show us who we are in Him.

This is why the baptism of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit are fought against so hard because they reveal Him, His works and His nature, and no man can see (perceive thru the mind of Christ) God and live (unto his own ways anymore). Blessings to all......

[Kratos]

Cardinal,

Great post.

1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

The main reason that we behold Jesus is He is us without the fall. As we come to see Him as He is, we are transformed into the image that we see. This is the power of the Word. I found this nugget years ago:

Jas 1:22  But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23  For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24  For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25  But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Here is the Greek word used here for "natural face".

G1078
γένεσις
genesis
ghen'-es-is
From the same as G1074; nativity; figuratively nature: - generation, nature (-ral).

When we gaze into the Word, we behold our "genesis face" as in a mirror and when we are doers of the Word, we are transformed into the image that we see. Which is back to ourselves.

John

[gatheredfragments]

God is good.   :cloud9:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Excellent John........I hear a symphony this morning  :winkgrin: Blessings to you.....

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You know, we can talk spiritual things all day long and repeat the promises the Word makes concerning some of these things, but it occurred to me that maybe it might help someone here to know the literal expression of how the Lord does some of these things we talk about. So I want to begin by sharing what the Lord did with me, and how He taught me to overcome, and what He had me to share with others, and to know that they experienced the same things regarding this that I did/have.

First of all, when something attracts my attention, ie. a thought comes in that I may instantly recognize is not of God's Spirit trying to "talk" (plant seed) to me, I do what He showed me to do. I put my hand on my chest and begin to pray in the Spirit and in English I command that thing to loose me and I loose it into the fire of the Holy Ghost to consume it, continuing to pray in the Spirit, until I get a release to stop.

Whatsoever things are loosed in earth/you, are then loosed in heaven/His Spirit. Conversely, another way to look at that scripture, is whatsoever you loose in heaven/His Spirit (perceive thru the mind of Christ) can then be loosed in earth (into you or your walk). Ever wonder why some churches have healings galore and others don't? The Word regarding healing was loosed in heaven (perceived thru the mind of Christ as being for today), and thereby able to be loosed in their earth. The same principle applies to anything God has, including the baptism of the Spirit and speaking in tongues. The Spirit comes to perform the Word. This is how heaven and earth, Spirit and body, come into agreement, or covenant.

Sometimes He will drop it into my spirit what specifically the name/nature of that thing was that was trying to get a foothold; sometimes not, as it was apparently enough that the "watchman" on the walls, the Spirit of Christ within me, was allowed to deal with it without opposition on my part. Most of the time you feel a release in the Spirit. Sometimes He will let you feel a release in the natural body. I think He does that primarily to build your faith that He indeed, did something tangible.

The enemies of our souls, speaks to us in thoughts in subtility. I always ask people who doubt this, if they have ever walked across a high bridge and just for a second had a fleeting thought come in about jumping, or what would happen if they fell off, ect. I have yet to meet anyone who hasn't, because the servant is not greater than the master and He was tempted by the enemy of our souls, to throw Himself down from a high place.

That thought that came in, was an enemy of your soul, and didn't it "speak" or "sound" just like a thought of your own mind? THAT, is subtility. That is what we need the Spirit of God, the mind of Christ for, and why the  baptism of the Spirit comes upon our HEADS. Because the serpent is more subtle than all the other beasts of the field, and the seed of the woman, ie. the Christ birthed thru the flesh, is what it takes to crush his HEAD.

About 20 years ago, a man anointed by God to perform deliverances, came to a church here that did not believe in the doctrine. My friend that God raised up with me, and I had been trying to teach this at our bible study, with a great deal of opposition from the pastor of this particular church, whose members were coming to our bible study. So I knew it was God's way of getting the Word out thru a man after the flesh, ie. someone the pastor would receive from better. Anyway, the night came and the man ministered and asked for any that wanted deliverance from anything to come to the altar. Several finally did brave the glares of the pastor and go down.

One man, an elder, told me what happened to him. The minister told everyone there to begin to cough. They did, but after a few minutes of nothing, the elder told the minister, "Man, this is stupid."

The minister said, "I know it is, brother, but keep on coughing."

A few minutes later, the ones that had asked for deliverance and continued to cough, began to be delivered, some with violent heaves. The elder, who was a well know druggie and alcoholic for years before his conversion, ran into the bathroom to throw up. He said, even though he had been clean for many years, when he threw up, he smelled every drug and alcoholic beverage he had ever taken into his body, as the spirit of it left him. There is nothing in the coughing, it is as a "hankerchief", or contact point of faith that God honors by moving in the Spirit accordingly.

God deals with the fruit of our choices when we first come to Him, but the Holy Ghost uncovers the hidden things of the heart, the ROOTS, that many times go back generations. This is why things like alcoholism run in families. We overcome not just for ourselves, but for generations forward and generations back. This is how He is cleansing the bloodline of Adam, how the waters (speaks of a flow of spirits) of the Jordan (speaks of death or things that bring death) are rolled back all the way back to Adam. And this is why, they (those that have gone on) without us (alive in a body that can receive the anointing to intercede) cannot be made perfect or complete in Him.

An intercessor is someone who stands between God and man, forgiving/cleansing their sins (missing the mark and the stain on the garment/soul that comes from that). The OT priests that laid hands on the people and on their offering, were a type of the spiritual. This is why the PRIESTS (we are a priestly nation, a nation of priests now) stood in the river, with the ark (mind of Christ which comes thru the tongues of fire) on their shoulders, and the waters of death rolled back. Jesus Christ lives to be that intercessor, and He lives to do it thru us and in us. That is why He said, whatsoever sins YOU remit, they are remitted. It is part of our "job", if you will, to allow the Holy Ghost to remit sins thru us, as priests of God.

Without this inner deep cleansing, people struggle for years sometimes with things they no longer want to do. Paul spoke of this when he said the things that I would not, that I do. The Holy Ghost does the works, and therefore it is of His election and timing when something is removed from the hearts of men, else it would be of works and men could boast.

Another reason why the timing of it should be left to God, is because we were given authority to command. But if we take that authority and misuse it, ie. apart from the Spirit's direction and leading, we can actually cause more harm to the individual, because if there is no true repentance and the desires of the heart have not been cleansed by the fire of God, the person may stumble and take it back, thus making tighter their bands.

The same elder's other experience with deliverance is a good illustration. After God displayed His power in deliverance in the church, the opportunity presented itself not long after, for me to pray with the elder. God wanted to move to free him of many things that He revealed thru the gift of the word of knowledge. At the end of this, the last thing I was shown by the Spirit was a spirit of nicotene in the man's chest. Normally if He shows you something, it's because He wants it dealt with. So as I went to command it out and loose it into the fire of the Holy Ghost, for the first time ever, the Lord spoke loudly to me, "NO!"

I was stunned and stopped dead in my tracks, asking Him why then, did You show this to me? He said, "Tell him twice I delivered him of this and twice he took it back. This time I want him to fast and pray before I will deliver him of it."

I told the man (I had no idea if he smoked or not) what the Lord had shown me and said to me, and he nodded sheepishly saying that was true, and "Did He tell you how long I have to fast this time?"

We are called to be priests of God, born into a priestly family that has the function of service in the tabernacle, knowing that as we serve others, we ultimately serve ourselves and our God, for we are all one in Him. Blessings to all.....

[gatheredfragments]

 :HeartThrob:

[Dean]

Depression happens to me...as I de-press my emotions, and in particular the emotions that are associated with feeling pain.

I was raised to believe that pain is bad and is best to be avoided. The things I use to avoid feeling pain are governed by the self-will committee in my head... which in my case... is chaired, by fear.

Today, I understand that all emotions are God given and are meant in a healthy way to be expressed and fully felt. There are no unhealthy emotions...fear angst anxiety sadness mourning grief...all human and necessary.  But when I de press these emotions they become distorted and unhealthy. My stuffed fears, angst, sadness have birthed torment in my life.

Apparently, I needed to experience the consequences of de pressed feelings [severe depression] in order to surrender to God, the whole mess including the life long HABITS I was using that are designed for... pain avoidance. I tried drugs and alcohol but religion, people pleasing and people impressing is what I bonded with and for a long time ...they worked for me...then they betrayed me [the sneaky rascals] and stopped working to still the pain.

I think Jesus felt everything, that He was feeling. When He was sad, then He was sad and He wept. When He was joyful, then He was joyful and He expressed His joy. When He was afraid and sweating as it were great drops of blood, He did not HIDE it and He did not PRETEND that it wasn't happening... He told His Father, ALL about it.

I learned in Church that feelings are not facts and to acknowledge them is a big mistake..because they said, 'speaking' them is to empower them. It did not work that way for me. I think feelings are FACTS...they are the TRUTH about what I feel and they are a window to who I am. To deny and supress what I feel and think is dishonest....and in this denying, I LIE to my self. As I practiced this sudtle lying... I taught myself the art of being dishonest. Lying has served to seperate me from what is real and keeps me AWAY from God, myself and others. Sometimes, I'm in the midst of being human and angst, anxiety and fear are what I feel, and I find its difficult to speak the truth about myself...but when I speak honestly...even that I'm afraid, then INTIMACY with God, myself and others...HAPPENS.

'Putting away' the life long habit of lying, denying, pretending and acting as if what is real and true, is not the truth...is necessary in order for me... to be conformed into His image. In my life, I understand that as lying and depression are united... even so are honesty and being free.

Please feel free to take what you like and leave the rest.

Dean

[amanda]

Dean, I agree feelings are the truth.
Our feelings never lie, its when we try to cover our true feelings with what we think we "should" feel that we run into all sorts of problems.  Sharing honest feelings with other people is a wonderful gift as it allows others to be honest also.

Caitlyn, everything is a spiritual issue.  A dark night is transforming, its not something to get rid off its something that you go thru, it forces you to rely on faith.
amanda

[Dean]

Amanda,

Thank you for your response.

ah...the wouldahs... the couldahs...the shouldahs. I know these guys well. Not a single ounce of real in any of them, but... I have spent lots of time and effort...thinking about them..

I read this last week.    

"God...help me be freed from waste-ing my life, thinking about what thinking can't change."

Dean

[Davo22]

Cait,

It is kind of after the fact, but we can know the source by watching the fruit. It is like asking how to tell the difference between conviction and condemnation. One leads us to God and one drives us away from God.

Mental illness that torments and tortures and hurts is not of God. It makes following God difficult. But the other draws us to Him as we grow more in love and trust of Him.

John

GOOD POST, I AGREE. THERE'S THE LAW OF SIN AND THE LAW OF GOD. THE LAW OF SIN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR Despair. WHEN WE'RE GRIEVED IN THE flesh, we are tempted by these bad feelings, but in the spirit there is no temptation. IF WE YIELD TO THE FLESH, WE OPEN THE DOOR FOR THE DEVIL TO ACCUSE US WITH OUR PAST.

PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS TEMPT US, THEY TELL US THERE'S NO WAY OUT. SPIRITUAL DEPRESSION TELLS US WE HAVE A LOAD TO CARRY, BUT GOD WIITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

MY :2c: 

[gatheredfragments]

what great information from a world of experiences in Christ...wow.

my most recent experience ...i have been allowed to fully feel the emotions rather than run from them...no scape goats...no escape mechanisms....

and the odd thing...was that after the fact...when the clouds parted and the sun shone...those emotions were put there to teach a lesson, they were not really mine to keep...

God is so mysterious....
we are put into circumstances to learn and grow for HIS glory....

Jesus DID suffer the full range, that many of us might miss. 

I suppose now...that this means, while I would rather have NOT experienced what causes pain, when I would have chosen not to in the first place by empirical understanding, God will put it upon us.....as HE did upon Himself.....

for love.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yep. They are there to come under submission to the Christ within, just like the other 3 parts of our soul. This part was my Achilles heel until God taught me how to pray over them. Emotions can be tormentors. Blessings to you.......

[Redlettervoice]

Rend your "heart" and NOT your "garments!"

Well, I been learning that for YEARS!!! and getting  plenty of practice.

The "garments" that are "filthy" are OUR OWN EMOTIONS!  Getting upset! 

Rent your heart, PRAY, and NOT your emotions.

Sometimes I have to keep "pressing" like the woman that "touched" the FINALITY hem of
HIS emotions.........for her own were causing her to lose her LIFE!

I have been there..........

It's not EASY to "die" to all your emotions, when things around you are chaotic, involve
those you LOVE hurting..........

We should be patient with one another!