The Evangelical Universalist Spawned a New Forum Board

[james.goetz]

The pseudonymous author Gregory MacDonald wrote (2006) The Evangelical Universalist, and this book eventually spawned a new forum board http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/index.php. Whether or whether not you've read MacDonald's book, you may participate in forum discussions about evangelical universalism.

We have a brief statement of faith while people with any faith may participate.

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists

1) We believe in the divine inspiration of the Old and New Testaments (the Bible) and consider them authoritative for Christian faith and practice
2) We believe in the faith of the Church as contained in the Nicene Creed
3) We believe the Bible teaches the hope that God will eventually redeem all humanity through Christ

Gregory MacDonald elaborates on beliefs of evangelical universalists in his blog post (4/30/2008) "Responses to evangelical objections to the orthodoxy of universalism" http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html:

'So what do the "evangelical" universalists believe? Much the same as any other evangelical. They believe that God is triune and created the world ex nihilo; they believe that humans are created in this God's image; they believe that human rebellion separates us from God and deserves punishment; they accept the final authority of the Scriptures for matters of Christian faith; they believe that the Father sent his one and only Son as a human being (who did not cease to be divine) to live as our representative, to reveal the Father and to atone for our sins through his death on the cross; they believe that through his resurrection eternal life is available to those who trust in Christ; they believe in salvation by grace (not merit), through faith in Christ (not works); they believe in the return of Christ and the coming day of judgment; they even believe in hell!'

Please visit the new forum board http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/index.php.

I thank Martin Cisneros for giving me the okay to post an introduction for The Evangelical Universalist forum board.

[Cat]

I've just bought this book yesterday.  I'm just at the first chapter and it's proving a very enjoyable and exiciting read.  I'm liking the way MacDonald takes you through all the 'positions' and arguments and explores them in a very logical and thorough way. 

I'm a 'hopeful universalist' (as mentioned in the introduction as being some people's postion): we believe ''....Scripture gives good grounds for real hope that all will be saved, but there is no certainty''.  (that is not the author's position). 

I'm 'hoping' that this book will give me 'certainty'.  I'll let you know............. :thumbsup:

[Pierac]

Nicaea Creed?

Which one?  :dontknow:

Anyone have any input on the book? I have read so many that I'm not sure I want to buy another one?

I have read the following:

The Case For Christian Universalism Every Knee Shall bow by Thomas Allin

The Golden Thread God's Promise of Universal Salvation by Ken Vincent

The Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbott

Universal Salvation? The Current Debate  edited by Robin Perry and Christopher Partridge

So how is this book different? What approach does the Author use that has not already been done? I'm always open for a good book, but not something I already have.  What does The Evangelical Universalist have that's different from the others?

Paul

[Cat]

Hi Pierac,

I haven't read the books you list, but I've read countless articles and 'know' the various perspectives of UR, for and against.  I spotted this book, a few weeks ago and nearly bought it then, but thought it would be much the same as everything else I've read.  I spotted it again yesterday, and perused the chapters and intro.  They 'caught my interest' and hence yet another book to add to my growing library.  It may well prove to be much the same as most other books, but so far, I'm finding the author's views and points he makes, very interesting.  I'll let you know the verdict, once I've read it all.  Hopefully someone else here will have already read it and give you some feedback.   

I'm hoping that the 'disjointed' pieces of the UR 'puzzle' that I gather from article to article will come together in a way in which I can see the overall picture.  Up to now, I've gathered interesting ideas that seem to point to UR (e.g all dying in Adam, all made alive in Christ), but tend to drop away once I consider the whole of the bible.  I haven't yet read something that manages to marry the whole of God's word into an indisputable case for UR.  I live in hope... :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

Nicaea Creed?

Which one?  :dontknow:

Anyone have any input on the book? I have read so many that I'm not sure I want to buy another one?

I have read the following:

The Case For Christian Universalism Every Knee Shall bow by Thomas Allin

The Golden Thread God's Promise of Universal Salvation by Ken Vincent

The Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbott

Universal Salvation? The Current Debate  edited by Robin Perry and Christopher Partridge

So how is this book different? What approach does the Author use that has not already been done? I'm always open for a good book, but not something I already have.  What does The Evangelical Universalist have that's different from the others?

Paul

If the subject is the same how much different can the books be....?
I've read dozens of UR books (and even more on non UR) and very often it's like large parts are copied from elsewhere.
My other hobby is greed trading forex market and I have read many books on the subject.
When I read I always have my yellow marker handy When I started trading a few decades ago after reading the book was almost completly yellow... But now; after reading 500 pages quite often only 10 lines are marked out of the whole book.
And then the book was worthwhile for me.
Same for UR books. If the book contains at least one powerful verse or insight it was worth the money. :2c:

[reFORMer]

At one time I could say I've read every book that I could find in print, and many no longer in print, on Universal Salvation or the ultimate disposition of the wicked.  I got a night watchman's job on purpose that would allow me time to study and write.  I've read a whole shelf full on this subject.  Some are better than others.  A couple I intend to re-read (Winchester, Jukes, Allin.)  The thing about another one is finding so much refreshed in your memory besides a new discovery or two.  It's good to be reminded of the many points of Biblical verification, facts of nature and logic, good answers to objections, even history.  Write one of your own.  Not only would it be a good exercise for self-improvement, but it could prove popular beyond your expectations.  People, specially Christians, need to hear this message.  I hope to produce something comprehensive of a few pages that doesn't intimidate the majority that don't like to read anything of length.

Something to commend another site (as many as possible) where needed light can be dispersed is sometimes one or another of them can be down.  I don't understand the problems I've had accessing even tentmaker.  It's encouraging to discover (on Aug 2, 2009) it's not my failing computer because others were having similar problems at the same time.


Cat,

I read the Bible a number of times before I understood how it does not teach ceaseless torture for ever.  In turn, I knew for about seven years there was no infinite torture without knowing what else there was.  I know better now how to use concordances and lexicons to do my own studies.  But, since believing the salvation of all at 3 am, July 18, 1981, there is one or two primary things that have proved the most important concerning this matter.  One is the nature of the God of Jesus Christ that has personally revealed Himself to me since coming into my life in 1969.  I've often wondered why I couldn't have doubted the doctrine of Eternal Torment simply on that basis.  Why didn't I recognize God better?  The other aspect of it is the barrier to loving other people, even myself, that I didn't even realize was there until the change from years of restructuring my concept of God to be more in accord with what the Biblical record actually states, as well as from years of walking with Him, knowing more of His love for others in a way that is not all embittered against them for sinful identities that God says are not imputed against them.

[Tim B]

At one time I could say I've read every book that I could find in print, and many no longer in print, on Universal Salvation or the ultimate disposition of the wicked.  I got a night watchman's job on purpose that would allow me time to study and write.  I've read a whole shelf full on this subject.  Some are better than others.  A couple I intend to re-read (Winchester, Jukes, Allin.)  The thing about another one is finding so much refreshed in your memory besides a new discovery or two.  It's good to be reminded of the many points of Biblical verification, facts of nature and logic, good answers to objections, even history.  Write one of your own.  Not only would it be a good exercise for self-improvement, but it could prove popular beyond your expectations.  People, specially Christians, need to hear this message.  I hope to produce something comprehensive of a few pages that doesn't intimidate the majority that don't like to read anything of length.

Something to commend another site (as many as possible) where needed light can be dispersed is sometimes one or another of them can be down.  I don't understand the problems I've had accessing even tentmaker.  It's encouraging to discover (on Aug 2, 2009) it's not my failing computer because others were having similar problems at the same time.


Cat,

I read the Bible a number of times before I understood how it does not teach ceaseless torture for ever.  In turn, I knew for about seven years there was no infinite torture without knowing what else there was.  I know better now how to use concordances and lexicons to do my own studies.  But, since believing the salvation of all at 3 am, July 18, 1981, there is one or two primary things that have proved the most important concerning this matter.  One is the nature of the God of Jesus Christ that has personally revealed Himself to me since coming into my life in 1969.  I've often wondered why I couldn't have doubted the doctrine of Eternal Torment simply on that basis.  Why didn't I recognize God better?  The other aspect of it is the barrier to loving other people, even myself, that I didn't even realize was there until the change from years of restructuring my concept of God to be more in accord with what the Biblical record actually states, as well as from years of walking with Him, knowing more of His love for others in a way that is not all embittered against them for sinful identities that God says are not imputed against them.

I've noticed this too. Without believing that God will eventually save all mankind, it becomes near impossible to love others like I want to (or myself, for that matter). Whether you believe in ET or annihilation, if you do believe either of those, you tend to separate yourself from others as "not like yourself." In which case, it becomes very difficult to sympathize and/or empathize with them. It's also hard because you feel like you have to love them with a catch. That is, you have to love them, yet, you must love them AND try to convert them. I don't think that loving someone is all about converting. If that's all we as "Christians" are trying to do, I'm not really sure it's loving. Once you realize though, that God loves all men unconditionally, and WILL have ALL men to be saved, it become much easier to sympathize/empathize and truly love them. It's also easier to, if you wish, to share your faith, because you won't be pulling a "turn or burn" on them.

[Cat]

Having realised the doctrine of devils (a literal hell of eternal conscious suffering) when I was a teenager, I haven't had to grapple with trying to reconcile such a repugnant concept with the 'God of Love'.  However, the leap from a God whose wrath remains on some (John 3:36 ''Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.") to a God whose wrath does not remain, is a very difficult 'journey'.  When I read that scripture just quoted, I don't get the impression that the 'remaining' is going to come to an end.  Those ones, will remain dead, or not see life.  They return to 'non existence'.  When Jesus says 'depart from me...' He doesn't add 'until you come to your senses and learn some lessons'.  Again, the language seems very final.  I completely 'get' what you guys are saying and the scriptures you quote seem straight forward enough, but I can't 'join' the other ones, like the ones I've just quoted to what you're saying.  :dontknow:

[Tim B]

Having realised the doctrine of devils (a literal hell of eternal conscious suffering) when I was a teenager, I haven't had to grapple with trying to reconcile such a repugnant concept with the 'God of Love'.  However, the leap from a God whose wrath remains on some (John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.") to a God whose wrath does not remain, is a very difficult 'journey'.  When I read that scripture just quoted, I don't get the impression that the 'remaining' is going to come to an end.  Those ones, will remain dead, or not see life.  They return to 'non existence'.  When Jesus says 'depart from me...' He doesn't add 'until you come to your senses and learn some lessons'.  Again, the language seems very final.  I completely 'get' what you guys are saying and the scriptures you quote seem straight forward enough, but I can't 'join' the other ones, like the ones I've just quoted to what you're saying.  :dontknow:

Hmm, you know, I don't think John 3:36 sounds very final at all. It seems to suggest that if you accept Christ, then the wrath does not remain upon you, which seems to say that His wrath can be gone at any second. Besides, if a man can ONLY come to Christ if the Father drags him (and the Father desires to save ALL men), how can we say that the wrath is really so bad (I mean, God's obviously allowing it to abide for a reason)? Also, Paul said (in Romans 1:18 I believe) that God's wrath is made manifest upon the unrighteousness OF men. That is, it's NOT made manifest against man themselves, but rather, THEIR ACTIONS or SIN. So when "wrath" abides on man it seems that it can only be "on" man in the sense that they have sin within them, and God's wrath is set against it, to set them free. Imagine, if you will, a jar full of water. If somebody wants to remove the water, but keep the jar, would he destroy the jar, or would he evaporate the water with heat? Of course, he'd use heat. In such a way, the heat would evaporate the water, but keep the jar intact (even though the heat is also UPON the jar while the water is evaporated).

Also, Jesus might say "depart from me," but this in no way suggests finality either. Notice Jesus says that if He comes back to an "evil/lazy servant" he will be thrown in/out (aka departed) with the unbelievers and receive "many stripes," (as opposed to, what I believe is the "non-believer" which receives "few stripes") and He also says that if a man is sentenced to prison (aka departed) he will only remain "until he has paid the last penny." Therefore, I don't see anything from Jesus to suggest that any punishment is unending or the final outcome of a man. I mean, honestly, what type of justice is that? It's one thing to make a man pay for his crimes. It's quite another to make his crimes serve him an infinite death sentence (note: I'm not saying infinite torture, but I'm saying that even annihilation doesn't seem to be entirely just).

For instance: how does one make a man repay back his crimes if he's killed two people? Does he have to be executed twice? And if so, once he's been executed the second time, is their any reason to keep him dead if he's paid his crimes? I don't believe so. He's paid his last penny. There's no reason to keep him in a "punishment" state. Also, what if for justice to be served the man DOESN'T have to die twice (or even once)? How could he repay back his debt then? Well, he might receive a different type of "stripes," rather than a literal eye for an eye. Maybe he'll have to do something to fix what he's broken. Maybe God would use him to fix the lives he's broken. Who knows? But I don't see, as I've already said, permanent annihilation as a fair treatment of the sinner.

[Cat]

I'm not sure about some of the main evangelical teachings (e.g the trinity) anyway, and so I put that to one side as I'm reading the book, as my main interest is in how he demonstrates UR as a truth.  So far, I'm finding what he says 'music to my ears'.  I'm aware it teaches hell (I'm assuming this is a period of temporary punishment, but haven't got that far yet), but so too do associates of Tentmaker.  The lovely old guy in some of Gary's videos (Louis Abbot?), believed in a literal lake of fire where you are punished for a period of time and then restored.  He's obviously read that as literal, whereas most of us here, I'm sure would take it as symbolic of destroying the bad and refining etc...  I've quickly checked out the site and it seems ok.  I doubt I'll have time to go on there, but I may use it to clarify stuff in the book.  It's a shame he used a pseudonym and didn't have the b***s to 'come out', but UR is seen as heretical within evangelical churches and we shouldn't judge this guy, if he hasn't the guts to face his critics, or if he fears losing his position (e.g his job and house maybe).  Maybe he will reveal himself one day.  It might turn out he's the Archbishop of Canterbury??? :bgdance:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Cat my real name  is Lee Damboise II, and when i read you first post, I was turned off right away from many things that wille refered to, But to answer a troubling question that you've been looking hard for PLEASE check out the following book,

The Gospel Of Our Salvation sold by www.sigler.org or www.tentmaker.org/store or www.concordant.org or
ask me and I will let you USE my copy for free. I would be willing to pay for shipping IF you promise to mail it back.

It will answer the issure of MARRING THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD'S WORD

[gregoryfl]

I'm not sure about some of the main evangelical teachings (e.g the trinity) anyway, and so I put that to one side as I'm reading the book, as my main interest is in how he demonstrates UR as a truth.  So far, I'm finding what he says 'music to my ears'.  I'm aware it teaches hell (I'm assuming this is a period of temporary punishment, but haven't got that far yet), but so too do associates of Tentmaker.  The lovely old guy in some of Gary's videos (Louis Abbot?), believed in a literal lake of fire where you are punished for a period of time and then restored.  He's obviously read that as literal, whereas most of us here, I'm sure would take it as symbolic of destroying the bad and refining etc...  I've quickly checked out the site and it seems ok.  I doubt I'll have time to go on there, but I may use it to clarify stuff in the book.  It's a shame he used a pseudonym and didn't have the b***s to 'come out', but UR is seen as heretical within evangelical churches and we shouldn't judge this guy, if he hasn't the guts to face his critics, or if he fears losing his position (e.g his job and house maybe).  Maybe he will reveal himself one day.  It might turn out he's the Archbishop of Canterbury??? :bgdance:

His real name is Robin Parry, and per his own words...

But why remain anonymous?
- Not because I was embarrased about my views (I would have loved to be more open about them).
- Not because I feared losing my job

I kept my identity secret in the first instance to protect my employer. Sadly there are some Christians out there who would not be at all happy to know that the Editorial Director for Paternoster is a believer in universal restoration.

http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.com/2009/08/i-am-evangelical-universalist.html

[Tony N]

Nicaea Creed?

Which one?  :dontknow:

Anyone have any input on the book? I have read so many that I'm not sure I want to buy another one?

I have read the following:

The Case For Christian Universalism Every Knee Shall bow by Thomas Allin

The Golden Thread God's Promise of Universal Salvation by Ken Vincent

The Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbott

Universal Salvation? The Current Debate  edited by Robin Perry and Christopher Partridge

So how is this book different? What approach does the Author use that has not already been done? I'm always open for a good book, but not something I already have.  What does The Evangelical Universalist have that's different from the others?

Paul

My other hobby is greed trading forex market and I have read many books on the subject.

{Off Topic}
WW, maybe we should (or Tentmaker should) start a new board on The Universalist Investor and those knowledgeable in investing could provide tips?

[Cat]

Cat my real name  is Lee Damboise II, and when i read you first post, I was turned off right away from many things that wille refered to, But to answer a troubling question that you've been looking hard for PLEASE check out the following book,

The Gospel Of Our Salvation sold by www.sigler.org or www.tentmaker.org/store or www.concordant.org or
ask me and I will let you USE my copy for free. I would be willing to pay for shipping IF you promise to mail it back.

It will answer the issure of MARRING THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD'S WORD

Hi Lee, thanks for the recommendation.  I'll hold fire to see how this book works out, and then if it hasn't 'convinced' me, I'll try to get hold of a copy of 'The Gospel of Our Salvation'.

Hi Gregoryfl, thanks for the info regarding the author.  I'll check him out.   :happygrin:

[Tim B]

Cat my real name  is Lee Damboise II, and when i read you first post, I was turned off right away from many things that wille refered to, But to answer a troubling question that you've been looking hard for PLEASE check out the following book,

The Gospel Of Our Salvation sold by www.sigler.org or www.tentmaker.org/store or www.concordant.org or
ask me and I will let you USE my copy for free. I would be willing to pay for shipping IF you promise to mail it back.

It will answer the issure of MARRING THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD'S WORD

Hi Lee, thanks for the recommendation.  I'll hold fire to see how this book works out, and then if it hasn't 'convinced' me, I'll try to get hold of a copy of 'The Gospel of Our Salvation'.

Hi Gregoryfl, thanks for the info regarding the author.  I'll check him out.   :happygrin:

Hey Cat,

I have a tip for you too, if I might add one: ask God to reveal to you the truth in your HEART and SPIRIT (and/or SOUL). It's one thing to have head-knowledge, or "know" something in your mind. It's quite another to believe it in your heart. That's what I've been doing, and just recently I've really felt the truth behind such verses as 1 Timothy 4:10 come alive.

Plus, I'll send a prayer up for you too, that God will encourage you on your investigating and searchings and instill the truth in your heart.  :happy3:

[Cat]

Hey Cat,

I have a tip for you too, if I might add one: ask God to reveal to you the truth in your HEART and SPIRIT (and/or SOUL). It's one thing to have head-knowledge, or "know" something in your mind. It's quite another to believe it in your heart. That's what I've been doing, and just recently I've really felt the truth behind such verses as 1 Timothy 4:10 come alive.

Plus, I'll send a prayer up for you too, that God will encourage you on your investigating and searchings and instill the truth in your heart.  :happy3:

I have done and do ask God daily to reveal His truth 'in my spirit' so to speak.  I've written about half a dozen questions (UR is one of them) and put them in my Bible, so I remember to pray about them as I read.  I'm hoping God will sort these questions out, in His time of course. :laughing7:

[Cat]

Well, I've read it and it didn't convince me.  I probably need to read it again and check ALL the verses quoted, but even so, I found it a bit heavy going as it went along.  Oh well, it was worth a try.  It contains some good stuff and is packed full of references. 

I remain a 'hopeful universal reconciliationist'. 

[reFORMer]

God is making you in His image and likeness.  To torture people without ceasing and with no hope of escape, all the while whispering in their ear, "I love you, I love you" is the kind of being He is making you to be if ET is true.  My conscience won't allow it!

[Cat]

reFORMer, many Christians although not believing in UR, do not believe in ET.  We can see that ET is a contradiction of God's love, mercy etc and only a cursory glance at the doctrine of ET can establish it's absurdity.  At the moment I lean towards annihilation for those to who Jesus says 'depart from me'.  They will experience the second death from which they will not wake up.  Of course it makes much more sense all round, to suppose that God will reconcile ALL his creation.  This quote by Hannah Whitall Smith from the beginning of 'The Evangelical Universailst' encompasses the whole hope for UR:

''...suddenly God seemed to answer me.  An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, ''He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied.''  ''Satisfied'' I cried in my heart.  ''Christ is to be satisfied!  He will be able to look at the world's misery and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result!  If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him!''  With this, a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that ''as in Adam all die even so in Christ should all be made alive.''  As was the first, even so was the second.  The 'all' in one case could not in fairness mean less than the 'all' in the other.  I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.''

Now that is a powerful bit of reasoning that I wholeheartedly relate to, but I 'stand back' and wonder if this kind of reasoning is in fact correct.  I hope it is, but I have not had a 'revelation' regarding UR, so I remain hopeful but cautious of human reasoning.

[james.goetz]

willieH: Hi James (if that's your name) :hithere:

You would not let me question you on YOUR PSEUDO forum, but I SHALL question you HERE! :nod:

(Sorry to any who may consider this post a bit harsh, but these guys are decievers.  If you must investigate this forum, PLEASE -- beware of it... I have already been there and was removed for challenging and questioning them)

The pseudonymous author Gregory MacDonald wrote (2006) The Evangelical Universalist, and this book eventually spawned a new forum board http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/index.php. Whether or whether not you've read MacDonald's book, you may participate in forum discussions about evangelical universalism.

We have a brief statement of faith while people with any faith may participate.

Minimal State of Faith for Evangelical Universalists

1) We believe in the divine inspiration of the Old and New Testaments (the Bible) and consider them authoritative for Christian faith and practice
2) We believe in the faith of the Church as contained in the Nicene Creed
3) We believe the Bible teaches the hope that God will eventually redeem all humanity through Christ

Gregory MacDonald elaborates on beliefs of evangelical universalists in his blog post (4/30/2008) "Responses to evangelical objections to the orthodoxy of universalism" http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html:

'So what do the "evangelical" universalists believe? Much the same as any other evangelical. They I believe that God is triune

A belief I questioned... and was part of the BOOT I got from them...

and created the world ex nihilo; they I believe that humans are created in this God's image; they believe that human rebellion separates us from God and deserves punishment;

Another questionable belief that does NOT BRING with "ITS TEACHING", the word GOSPEL -- which means GOOD NEWS.  What GOOD NEWS is in this? -- Hey dudes, here's some "GOOD NEWS"... your "rebelliousness" will get you into HELL...   :Yeahright: :thumbdown:

they I accept the final authority of the Scriptures for matters of Christian faith; they believe that the Father sent his one and only Son

More questionable statements...

JESUS was the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, ...NOT the ONLY SON... ADAM was a SON of GOD -- as are ALL human beings.

as a human being (who did not cease to be divine)

JESUS is not noted as "DIVINE"... He is the SON of the DIVINE YHVH

to live as our representative, to reveal the Father and to atone for our sins through his death on the cross; they I believe that through his resurrection eternal life is available to those who trust in Christ; they I believe in salvation by grace (not merit), through faith in Christ (not works); they I believe in the return of Christ and the coming day of judgment;

I agree with this... however, within "charades" is the TRUTH not presented... In the Garden... "satan" proposed some TRUTH intermingled with LIES... which is still LIES.

they I even believe in hell!

Again... another MANufactured teaching that james.goetz & company, will promote and hope to decieve you with... BEWARE of Him and them...  :thumbdown:

Please visit the new forum board http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/index.php .

Please DON'T!  :sigh:

I thank Martin Cisneros for giving me the okay to post an introduction for The Evangelical Universalist forum board.

You are lucky that I am not the adminstrator here... Your ADVERTISEMENT would have been DISALLOWED...

This "EU" board is literally useless... Certainly does not allow DISCUSSION or CHALLENGE... to this "pseudonomynous" Gregory MacDonald...

He ("greg") will not even ANSWER questions...  :thumbdown:

Why play charades?  Why does "GREG"  :pointlaugh: ...not USE ones own name?  This in itself is questionable...  :mshock:

Authoring a book under a "PSEUDO" name!  Please... :rolleye:

Why don't you go back there, Mr. "james.goetz" (if that is YOUR real name), and with your mod buttons try to force everyone else to believe what you "believe"?

Have you kicked so many out of there (that oppose your beliefs), that you have no discussion going on?  And now you are coming here to ADVERTISE this foolish forum?  :rolleye:

My suggestion to the membership here:  Don't waste your time with this PEUDO "Evangelical Universalist Forum"... your time will find much MORE useful and beneficial discussion HERE at TENTMAKER -- :nod:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Hi WillieH, many people on Evangelical Universalist Forum reject the Minimal Statement of Faith while the Board Rules clearly state that nobody must believe the Minimal Statement of Faith to participate. And several people have questioned the basic beliefs of the Board without getting any warnings. Respectful challenges to the basic beliefs are welcome. However, the Board follows the rules by warning members who are disrespectful. As far as I recall, the Board Moderators so far have had to give only one member repeated warnings for disrespect. And my last reply to your doctrinal challenges was left unanswered. I'd be more than happy to copy and paste some of our debate to this board, but I doubt that Tentmaker would want that http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3265.0.

And if you would have reviewed the EU Board before you posted this, you would have seen that the Gregory MacDonald has reveled his identity in August.

[james.goetz]

Nicaea Creed?

Which one?  :dontknow:

Anyone have any input on the book? I have read so many that I'm not sure I want to buy another one?

I have read the following:

The Case For Christian Universalism Every Knee Shall bow by Thomas Allin

The Golden Thread God's Promise of Universal Salvation by Ken Vincent

The Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbott

Universal Salvation? The Current Debate  edited by Robin P[a]rry and Christopher Partridge

So how is this book different? What approach does the Author use that has not already been done? I'm always open for a good book, but not something I already have.  What does The Evangelical Universalist have that's different from the others?

Paul

Hi Paul,

Any given commonly known version of the Nicene Creed would fit the bill.

I haven't read the book myself while I've enjoyed dialoging with the author, who is Robin Parry, editor of Universal Salvation? The Current Debate.

And, well, ah, I also haven't read the other books that you listed while I also have enjoyed dialoging online with Thomas Talbott.

Here are four blog posts by Robin Parry (the formerly pseudonymous Gregory MacDonald) that can give you a feel for the book:

http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.com/2009/08/i-am-evangelical-universalist.html

http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.com/2009/09/can-evangelical-be-universalist-part-1.html

http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.com/2009/09/can-evangelical-be-universalist-part-2.html

http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.com/2009/09/can-evangelical-be-universalist-part-3.html

I appreciate how Parry builds the case that the ancient Christian view of temporary punishments in hell is compatible with all of the teachings on the Bible.

[peacemaker]

Q. What's the difference between a question and an answer?
A.  One is given, the other is not.

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=165


Bioluminescence is the production and emission of light by a living organism as the result of a chemical reaction during which chemical energy is converted to light energy. The name originates from the Greek bios for living and the Latin lumen for light.

All cells produce some form of bioluminescence within the electromagnetic spectrum, but most is neither visible nor noticeable to the naked eye. Every organism's bioluminescence is unique in wavelength, duration, timing and regularity of flashes.

[james.goetz]

Q. What's the difference between a question and an answer?
A.  One is given, the other is not.

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=165


Bioluminescence is the production and emission of light by a living organism as the result of a chemical reaction during which chemical energy is converted to light energy. The name originates from the Greek bios for living and the Latin lumen for light.

All cells produce some form of bioluminescence within the electromagnetic spectrum, but most is neither visible nor noticeable to the naked eye. Every organism's bioluminescence is unique in wavelength, duration, timing and regularity of flashes.

Hi Peacemaker,

I have a lot of trouble understanding your cryptic message while you posted a link where WillieH asks a bunch of questions and I eventually answer them. Could you please explain it to me in plain English?

[peacemaker]

Q. What's the difference between a question and an answer?
A.  One is given, the other is not.

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=165


Bioluminescence is the production and emission of light by a living organism as the result of a chemical reaction during which chemical energy is converted to light energy. The name originates from the Greek bios for living and the Latin lumen for light.

All cells produce some form of bioluminescence within the electromagnetic spectrum, but most is neither visible nor noticeable to the naked eye. Every organism's bioluminescence is unique in wavelength, duration, timing and regularity of flashes.

Hi Peacemaker,

I have a lot of trouble understanding your cryptic message while you posted a link where WillieH asks a bunch of questions and I eventually answer them. Could you please explain it to me in plain English?

:hihat: Although I am not from England, it was only a commentary based on this quote:

The term "mitachondria"  isn't mentioned in scripture anywhere, nor does the term have an analog in Biblical Greek or Hebrew despite being a Greek term! Yet you insist on treating Jesus as human, the way we're human. How dare you?--humans have mitachondria in their cells, but that term isn't found in scripture! That ought to have made you instantly suspicious of the doctrine of Jesus' humanity, or anyone else's humanity in that time and place, and yet you insist upon it as a BIBLICAL doctrine. Unless maybe you deny or doubt that any human in Jesus' day, including Jesus, were mitachondrial creatures, because the term is not found in scripture?

Mitochondria is the power house of the cell, not unlike bioluminescence; living light which is within cells. Do we not possess, the invisible "Living Light?"

Can an Evangelical Not Believe in the Orthodoxies of Hell, the Trinity, the Rapture, and the anti-Christ, or do they need to conform to "the doctrines of men?"  Which is nothing less than psycho-Babel!

An act of joining? Or, the state of being divided?

Now, that's a thought: "Jesus held an anomalous position in the world; not conforming to the prevalent pattern of the Religious."

Not to ambiguous, as compared to the posed answers, which all can read for themselves at the above mentioned link.

peacemaker

[NinjaWizards777]

I just started reading this book, and man is it in depth! Hard to put down really, even though it makes me think a little harder than the other UR books ive read.

the forum is nice too, though I havent had alot of time to dive into it much