Then they shall say to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us'

[Doug]

When the sixth seal is opened, the men of the earth hide from the "wrath of the Lamb."

Revelation 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This prophecy alludes to a prophecy of Hosea, which said that idolatrous Israelites would say to the mountains, "Cover us;" and to the hills, "Fall on us."

Hosea 10:8
The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us.

The prophet is talking here about their idolatrous religious worship, and apostasy.

The prophet Isaiah had said Israel and Jerusalem would be established in the "top of the mountains," which identified Israel as a "mountain." It was to become higher than all others. Here is what Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 2:2-4
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

A misunderstanding of this prophecy probably led to many Jews having an inflated idea of their destiny. They came to believe that simply being born a Jew gave them special status with God. Later, John the Baptist warned those who thought that simply being born a Jew, somehow made them more righteous than other people, and that it alone ensured their salvation.

Matthew 3:5-10
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
 
What counts in God's kingdom is not race, but bringing forth good fruit.

John also said "every mountain and hill shall be brought low," as we read in Luke's account.

Luke 3:2-6
2 ... the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Israel is called a mountain in Ezekiel 17:23, which refers to "the mountain of the height of Israel." Relying on being born a Jew would be like saying to the rocks of the mountains "fall on us," as Hosea said, because Israel was called a "mountain" in prophecy. People who rely on being a born into some Christian denomination are no different. This attitude, I think, is what John's prophecy in Revelation 6 is about. People rely on a label, or membership in some denomination, or their racial heritage, to hide them from the "wrath of the Lamb."

Isaiah's prophecy said valleys would be "exulted" and mountains and hills "made low." 

Isaiah 40:4
Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

In Luke's account, valleys being exulted is expressed as the valleys being filled up. This would diminish the relative height of the neighboring mountains. This idea of valleys being filled may be related a process involved in the formation of the mountains in Israel. That mechanism is erosion. Many mountains consist of eroded sedimentary rocks. These mountains are the remnants of sediments that were once much more extensive. Erosion left resistant rocks as mountains, flanked by valleys.

Many mountains are eroded remnants of formerly continuous layers of rock strata. Those with hard cap rocks may be mesas, which are mountains consisting of layers of sediments, often with steep sides, and a flat top. They are remnants of former continuous layers of sediments, and if those missing sediments were to be somehow restored, the mountain would become a plain.

This idea of mountains becoming low, and valleys being filled, reverses the process of erosion that formed the mountains. If the mountains are metaphors of prophecies, that remain mysterious to us because they are missing their context, the restoring of that context is the interpretation of the prophecies.

There are numerous examples of prophecies that are explained, when the missing context is provided. This is most clearly shown in the prophecies about the first coming of Christ. Many of these were explained to the disciples on the road to Emmaus, after Christ rose from the grave. His ministry, and his crucifixion and resurrection, was the context that filled in the gaps, or valleys, so the "mountains," or mysteries of Old Testament prophecy, were made plain, when it was all explained to them. It was as though the missing strata, that had been eroded away to form mountains, was restored. Thus, mountains being "made low," and valleys filled, suggests the prophecies of the OT about Christ were fulfilled, and their meaning explained.

Some mountains consist of older rocks that have been uplifted by tectonic forces to levels higher than younger sediments. Prophecies may be similar; earlier revelations may be more profound, and fundamental, and significant, for understanding the Gospel.

Mountains are durable, and long lasting. Gen. 49:26 refers to "the everlasting hills." They don't change significantly over time; David said, "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains." [Psa. 36:6] Thus the mountains resemble the promises of God, which endure forever.

Mountains are landmarks, that guide a traveler on his way. Isaiah said, "And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted." [Isaiah 49:11] The mountains represent the great promises of God, and they help us find the way, if we keep our objective, and our promised inheritance in mind.

When Jesus said to "flee to the mountains" in Matt. 24:16 and Luke 21:21, he was not referring to literal mountains! He said "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." [Matt. 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24; 17:33] So, clearly, he could not have meant we should flee to the mountains to save our own lives. Rather, he meant seek the  promises of God that the mountains represent. The mountains were prominent parts of the promised land, so they represent the promises of God, and all the scriptures.

These promises, Peter said, enable us to "escape the corruption that is in the world."

2 Peter 1:3-4
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Doug

[sheila]

nothing new under the sun, seems Adam and Eve wanted to be

hidden too, fig leaves in their case.

  What is THIS NAKEDNESS BUT  NOT RETURNING LOVE?

   Do NOT awaken or AROUSE LOVE until it so desires


   Ezekiel 16'6  Then I passed by..and saw you kicking about in

your blood[infant] and as you lay there in your blood,I said to

you'LIVE!"

  YOUR BREASTS WERE FORMED AND YOUR HAIR GREW,

YOU WHO WERE NAKED AND BARE

  Later, I passed by,and when I looked at you and SAW

THAT you were OLD ENOUGH FOR LOVE[maturing to both give/

return, and not receive love only]

I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your

nakedness

   Only LOVE is a PERFECT bond of union....the Law could not

make anyone  perfect. ONLY LOVE CAN KEEP THE LAW

   PERFECTLY.

   What is the wrath of the Lamb? It is a fire of jealousy and

  LOVE that a spirit of death should touch you


   FOR LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH,IT'S JEALOUSY AS

  UNYEILDING AS THE GRAVE

  IT WILL FORCE THE GRAVE TO GIVE UP IT'S BELOVED

   For I am convinced that neither death nor life,neither height

nor depth,nor anything else in all creation,will be able to

seperate us from the love of God,that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

                        Sheila

[Doug]

Babylon is called a mountain in scripture.

Jeremiah 51:24-26
And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD.
Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.
And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD.

God's kingdom is also called a mountain. Daniel 2:35 says it will eventually fill the entire earth.

John says men hide themselves in the dens and rocks of the mountains, because of their fear of the wrath of the Lamb.

What mountains do men hide in? Are they hiding in the dens and caverns of the mountain of Babylon? Are the dens where people hide the various religions, and the thousands of sects, cults, and denominations? Some are large, and some are small.

Most people hiding in their dens do not venture out, to explore the rest of mountain they are on, or other mountains they see.  They don't visit people in other dens. Isn't that a bit like the people of various religions? And the various sects, and denominations?
   
When hiding in their dens, people receive only a limited amount of light; their view of the world is restricted by the size of the crevice leading to the outside; their viewpoint is dependent on the location of their den on the mountain, its elevation, etc. Those in the other parts of the same mountain might get an entirely different view, just as the world looks different to people of different religious backgrounds.

To view all of the various mountains, the viewpoint of an eagle would be ideal. An flying eagle does not need to worry about the terrain below. The woman who represents the church, in Rev. 12:14, is given two wings of an eagle; these wings may represent an understanding of prophecy. When viewed from above, from an eagle's viewpoint, the features of all the mountains are evident. And the point of view provided by prophecy is similar.

Doug

[Gilbert]

Babylon is called a mountain in scripture.

Jeremiah 51:24-26
And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD.
Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.
And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD.

God's kingdom is also called a mountain. Daniel 2:35 says it will eventually fill the entire earth.

John says men hide themselves in the dens and rocks of the mountains, because of their fear of the wrath of the Lamb.

What mountains do men hide in? Are they hiding in the dens and caverns of the mountain of Babylon? Are the dens where people hide the various religions, and the thousands of sects, cults, and denominations? Some are large, and some are small.

Most people hiding in their dens do not venture out, to explore the rest of mountain they are on, or other mountains they see.  They don't visit people in other dens. Isn't that a bit like the people of various religions? And the various sects, and denominations?
   
When hiding in their dens, people receive only a limited amount of light; their view of the world is restricted by the size of the crevice leading to the outside; their viewpoint is dependent on the location of their den on the mountain, its elevation, etc. Those in the other parts of the same mountain might get an entirely different view, just as the world looks different to people of different religious backgrounds.

To view all of the various mountains, the viewpoint of an eagle would be ideal. An flying eagle does not need to worry about the terrain below. The woman who represents the church, in Rev. 12:14, is given two wings of an eagle; these wings may represent an understanding of prophecy. When viewed from above, from an eagle's viewpoint, the features of all the mountains are evident. And the point of view provided by prophecy is similar.

Doug

Hi! Doug

Everything invisible has a visible counterpart; this in keeping with Romans where it says, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
It could be said that the physical world is a shadow of the supernatural world; by that I mean: it is a natural picture of a spiritual reality.
Having said that the word 'mountain' in the verses you are quoting is a natural picture depicting supernatural powers.
For instance: Mount Zion depicts the power of God's Spirit; the Mount of Olives depicts the powers of death and so on.

[Doug]

Having said that the word 'mountain' in the verses you are quoting is a natural picture depicting supernatural powers.
For instance: Mount Zion depicts the power of God's Spirit; the Mount of Olives depicts the powers of death and so on.

Hi Gilbert,

What support do you find in scripture for your claim the Mount of Olives depicts the powers of death? Is it perhaps because you are thinking of all the graves there? Jews over the centuries wished to be buried there, because of the prophecy of Zechariah, that said Christ's feet would stand on it, so a tradition developed to the effect that Jews buried there will be first to be raised from the dead. They reject Jesus as their Messiah, and so they don't recognize that his feet already stood on the mountain, fulfilling that part of the prophecy, for example when he gave the Olivet discourse to his disciples.

Below is a discussion I posted in another forum about the symbolism of mountains. 

What is the relation between the characteristics of the mountains of the promised land, and their use as symbols in prophecy?

In Psalm 114, David said that the mountains "skipped like lambs" and little hills, "like lambs," when Israel went out of Egypt. How did the mountains skip? These cannot be literal mountains. They would have to become airborne, if they were to literally skip like lambs!

Mountains that fly through the air would be very strange. But there may be a solution, if Israel is represented by a mountain. The 12 tribes of Israel "skipped" out of Egypt, crossed the sea, came to Sinai, sojourned 40 years in the wilderness, and finally settled in the promised land.

Israel is called a mountain in Ezekiel 17:23, which refers to "the mountain of the height of Israel."

The Israelites were called sheep in many scriptures. Christ is the "shepherd of Israel." [Gen. 49:24; Psa. 80:1; Jer. 31:10; Amos 3:12; John 10:11]

Mountains are symbols of some of the great truths of the Bible; for example, the kingdom of God is represented by a mountain in Daniel 2:35, and in Isaiah 2:2. Paul refers to mount Sinai symbolically; it represents the Old Covenant and the mosaic legislation, in Galatians 4:24.

In Isaiah 2:2, the relative height of the various mountains is the key idea in the prophecy. The mountain representing the Lord's house rises to an altitude greater than all others. What are the other inferior mountains? In this case, those other mountains and hills are not identified; but clearly they are not literal mountains. They may be nations, governments, or religions. Whatever they are, the Lord's house will be higher. The dynasties of kings, and rulers of the nations, and all the great men of the earth, will become subject to the house of God, which is the church. The Israelites after the flesh were among those lesser mountains.

Isaiah said "Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low." [Isa. 40:4] This was the message of John the Baptist. In Luke's account, the prophecy is seen as a prediction that the valleys are to be filled up. [Luke 3:5] The filling of valleys would diminish the relative height of the neighboring mountains.

This idea of valleys being filled may be related a process involved in the formation of the mountains in Israel. That mechanism is erosion. Many mountains consist of eroded sedimentary rocks. These mountains are the remnants of sediments that were once much more extensive. Erosion left resistant rocks as mountains, flanked by valleys.

Many mountains are eroded remnants of formerly continuous layers of rock strata. Those with hard cap rocks may be mesas, which are mountains consisting of layers of sediments, often with steep sides, and a flat top. They are remnants of former continuous layers of sediments, and if those missing sediments were to be somehow restored, the mountain would become a plain.

This idea may underlie John's prophecy of mountains becoming low, and valleys being filled. It reverses the process of erosion that formed the mountains. If the mountains are metaphors of prophecies, that remain mysterious to us because they are missing their context, the restoring of that context is the interpretation of the prophecies.

There are numerous examples of prophecies that are explained, when the missing context is provided. This is most clearly shown in the prophecies about the first coming of Christ. Many of these were explained to the disciples on the road to Emmaus, after Christ rose from the grave. His ministry, and his crucifixion and resurrection, was the context that filled in the gaps, or valleys, so the "mountains," or mysteries of Old Testament prophecy, were made plain, when it was all explained to them. It was as though the missing strata, that had been eroded away to form mountains, was restored. Thus, mountains being "made low," and valleys filled, suggests the prophecies of the OT about Christ were fulfilled, and their meaning explained.

Some mountains consist of older rocks that have been uplifted by tectonic forces to levels higher than younger sediments. Prophecies may be similar; earlier revelations may be more profound, and fundamental, and significant, for understanding the Gospel.

Mountains are durable, and long lasting. Gen. 49:26 refers to "the everlasting hills." They don't change significantly over time; David said, "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains." [Psa. 36:6] Thus the mountains resemble the promises of God, which endure forever.

Mountains are landmarks, that guide a traveler on his way. Isaiah said, "And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted." [Isaiah 49:11] The mountains represent the great promises of God, and they help us find the way, if we keep our objective, and our promised inheritance in mind.

When Jesus said to "flee to the mountains" in Matt. 24:16 and Luke 21:21, he was not referring to literal mountains! He said "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." [Matt. 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24; 17:33] So, clearly, he could not have meant flee to the mountains to save our selves. Rather, he meant seek the promises of God that the mountains represent. The mountains were prominent parts of the promised land, so they represent the promises of God, and all the scriptures.

These promises, Peter said, enable us to "escape the corruption that is in the world."

2 Peter 1:3-4
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Doug

[Gilbert]

Hi! Doug

Ummmm, at the risk of appearing rude, (and I sincerely don't wish to be), do you want the short story about this or the long story?
I guess what I am asking is this:
I could jus' give yuh the bare essentials which could be interpreted as merely my opinion er sumthin'; or, I could give you an extensive point-by-point discussion of it.
So? Which way is it?
-------------
Oops! Perhaps I better edit that above to instead say:

"I could jus' give you a hurried snapshot of my opinion or I could create some kinna' point-by-point exegesis" using any number of scriptural references an' whatever"

[Doug]

Hi! Doug

Ummmm, at the risk of appearing rude, (and I sincerely don't wish to be), do you want the short story about this or the long story?
I guess what I am asking is this:
I could jus' give yuh the bare essentials which could be interpreted as merely my opinion er sumthin'; or, I could give you an extensive point-by-point discussion of it.
So? Which way is it?

I suggest you make the best case you can, for the position you have adopted. Please provide references if it is not original. Also please note my request for scriptural support for your claim.

Doug

[Gilbert]

Hi! Doug

Ummmm, at the risk of appearing rude, (and I sincerely don't wish to be), do you want the short story about this or the long story?
I guess what I am asking is this:
I could jus' give yuh the bare essentials which could be interpreted as merely my opinion er sumthin'; or, I could give you an extensive point-by-point discussion of it.
So? Which way is it?

I suggest you make the best case you can, for the position you have adopted. Please provide references if it is not original. Also please note my request for scriptural support for your claim.

Doug

Hi! Doug
I had just completing an edit of my earlier reply when I bumped into this.
Thanks for your kind invitation.
Give me a day 'er so to get back to you about this.

[Gilbert]

Hi! Doug

The comment in your previous Post caught my attention and was what prompted the response I gave earlier. So, I suppose the best way to approach things would be to first remind ourselves of what specific comment of yours it was and go from there.
You wrote:
---> "Mountains are symbols of some of the great truths of the Bible; for example, the kingdom of God is represented by a mountain in Daniel 2:35, and in Isaiah 2:2. Paul refers to mount Sinai symbolically; it represents the Old Covenant and the mosaic legislation, in Galatians 4:24". <---

You commented that "mountains are symbols" and that much is very true. But then you attached additional ideas which I found difficult.

We should note that in the New Covenant the names of mountains no longer have any geographical significance. They are merely 'shadows' or 'parables' pointing towards the "evidence of things unseen". Instead, mountains are natural pictures of spiritual realities and which denote powers in the spiritual world.

For instance, Isaiah 54:11-12 is picture of invisible powers. Our Lord Jesus Christ said about the casting out of evil spirits: "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move hence to yonder place', and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you",(Matt 17:20). So, we now also understand the spiritual meaning of Psalm 97:5: "The mountains melt like wax before the Lord". And in Psalm 46.3, "though the mountains tremble with its tumult". When Jonah was carried in the belly of the fish to the bottom of the sea or abyss (an image of Sheol) he said: " ... at the roots of the mountains, I went down... ", (Jonah 2:6).

In Revelation 16:20: "And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found". In the latter days men in their frenzied fear will call upon the evil powers (unclean spirits) in whom they put their trust. In vain, they beseech the mountains: "Fall on us", in vain they call panic stricken upon the hills: "Cover us", (Luke 23:30).

In the New Testament, Mount Zion is the image of the Holy Spirit. It is the mountain on which the city of God and spiritual Israel are located. That is why we read in Hebrews 12:22: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem". The great power of the Holy spirit is indicated by the height of Mount Zion, as it is written: "And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God",(Rev 21:10). Not a wonder Isaiah prophesied: "It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains",(Isaiah 2:2).

Those who belong to the body of Jesus Christ are based upon the power of the Holy Spirit, as it says: "Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand",(Rev 14:1).

I would like to address an additional comment you made:
---> "This idea of valleys being filled may be related a process involved in the formation of the mountains in Israel. That mechanism is erosion. Many mountains consist of eroded sedimentary rocks. These mountains are the remnants of sediments that were once much more extensive. Erosion left resistant rocks as mountains, flanked by valleys.
Many mountains are eroded remnants of formerly continuous layers of rock strata. Those with hard cap rocks may be mesas, which are mountains consisting of layers of sediments, often with steep sides, and a flat top. They are remnants of former continuous layers of sediments, and if those missing sediments were to be somehow restored, the mountain would become a plain.
This idea may underlie John's prophecy of mountains becoming low, and valleys being filled. It reverses the process of erosion that formed the mountains. If the mountains are metaphors of prophecies, that remain mysterious to us because they are missing their context, the restoring of that context is the interpretation of the prophecies". <---

Doug, taking these images literally in the natural world as you have is bound to risk arriving at some very strange and irrational ideas which are neither scriptural nor in keeping with common sense.

Let's take a look at Zech 14:4 where it speaks about the Mount of Olives being split: "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

After the last supper, Jesus left Jerusalem and went with his disciples to the Mount of Olives. Gethsemane (oil press) which lies at the foot of this mountain and forms part of it. It was in this garden that our Lord fought the greatest and heaviest battle of his life. He had defeated all evil but now He was confronted with an enemy who was to overpower Him. In this garden the struggle against the powers of death began.

Here, Jesus was like Jonah in the belly of the fish. In his encounter with the last enemy Jesus would be overcome, As Jesus Himself said, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death",(Matt 26:38). In this very place He was in great agony and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down on the earth. In Gethsemane He had to taste death by spiritually drinking the cup of death, thus partaking of the suffering of death.

The things happening to our Lord in the visible world at Calvary, He had already experienced in his inner man in the unseen world at the foot of the Mount of Olives. There it could be said of Jesus: "I am a worm and no man",(Psalm 22:6). But after having been in the power of Death and Hades the Lord arose on the day of Passover, He said: "I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades",(Rev 1:18).

Following His resurrection, our Lord and His disciples were not at the foot of the Mount of Olives any more but right on top of it. Jesus was no longer the stricken shepherd about to be killed by the sword of the enemy,(Rev 13: 7), but had become the King of kings who said: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me",(Matt 28:18). The last enemy (death) had been dethroned and destroyed,(1Cor 15:26).

Therefore, the mountain at the foot of which our Lord laid down His life and on top of which His feet stood after his victory over death, henceforth becomes a spiritual picture of this spiritual reality: the power of death; the destroyer.

It is interesting to also note that our Lord Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives when He preached his endtime sermon and told His followers of the things which were to happen after his victory over death,(Matt 24:3). In a prophetic sermon, Jesus unfolded the suffering and struggle of the faithful which He would redeem by His blood; but He also revealed the splendid glory awaiting His people.

The Revelation of John also speaks about events occurring after the manifestation of the sons of God and after the tribulations of those days, when the feet of our Lord will again stand on the Mount of Olives. At that moment the covenant of shadows will have passed away and the Mount of Olives, which geographically speaking lies east of Jerusalem, has no longer any significance in the history of salvation, no more than Mount Zion or Sinai.

The expression 'splitting' implies the end of the power which death has over the children of God. Thus the Red Sea which once threatened the people of Israel with death was divided and made powerless; a way of escape and victory was formed. However, the day is still ahead in which death will completely vanish. This occurs when "Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire",(Rev 20:14). Using a New Testament image, we could say that the Mount of Olives will than be lifted up and thrown into the sea, that is, into the lake of fire and the second death.

Now another what may seem (at first glance) as an entirely diffent subject:

The scripture says, "And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord your God will come, and all the holy ones with Him".

When in the spiritual world the Mount of Olives will split, that is when death will be made powerless, there follows a tremendous and impressive event, for those who stayed behind alive until the coming of the Lord will in the twinkling of an eye receive a body which is both immortal and spiritual. The earthly tent in which they live will be transformed into a spiritual house which expresses the perfection reached by the inner man. In their spiritual bodies also they will have been conformed to the image of the exalted Son of God. Being his body, the congregation will then form the parliament with which He rules the world during the millennium. Throughout the centuries the children of God had to yield to the power of death, but the manifested sons of God will combat and conquer the powers of sin and sickness and eventually will also triumph over the last enemy, just as the Son of God did.

The bible says that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. His body, which had never served sin and which did not decompose after He died, was changed into a spiritual body which functioned in the visible as well as in the invisible world. In this transformation Jesus was also the first amongst many brothers, for about the sons of God the prophecy was that He will change their bodies in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for this perishable, visible, material, body must put on the imperishable.

As soon as this has happened, these words of God will be fulfilled: "Death is swallowed up in victory", (1Cor 15:53-54). When the Mountain of Death splits, a wide valley will be created with a way of escape prepared by the Lord from the tribulation on earth to the heavenly glory. It is the day on which the Lord puts His feet on the Mount of Olives, meaning that death, the last enemy, has been put under His feet. At that time, the authority and power of death over the people of God is completely broken. For them, death has been dethroned,(1Cor 15:25-27). The prophet said that the prepared way shall reach as far as Azal Azal literally means: 'foot of the mountain'. So the Mountain of Death will be split completely down to its foot.

God's people will find refuge on Mount Zion, as it says in Joel 2:32: "For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape". Mount Zion is the image of the Holy Spirit who guarantees eternal and imperishable life to the Israel of God. Spiritual Israel, living in the time of the great tribulation by the released powers of darkness, will suddenly see a way of escape. They will flee in mass, as the people of Israel did when they left Egypt along the path which the Lord prepared through the tempestuous waves. To demonstrate the force with which the powers of death will be torn apart, Zechariah mentioned an earthquake which took place two centuries before, in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Earthquakes being rare in Palestine, it was still talked about in the days of Zechariah. However, for the Israel of God this prophecy is purely spiritual. It shows how the complete man will escape at the seventh (last) trumpet, when the perishable and mortal nature of the sons of God will put on imperishable immortality. [Note: When a child of God "falls asleep in Jesus", death has not yet been destroyed, although the inner man escapes its power.]

Isaiah 35:8-10 deals with a highway on which the true people of God will walk. This highway is not a literal road but a figure of speech, for it is called the 'holy way'. Those who are redeemed from the power of darkness will pass over it. The end of this highway leads through "the valley of the mountains" and thus it is fulfilled that "I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be raised up", (Isaiah 49:11).

Isaiah 60:8 asks: "Who are these that fly like a cloud, and like doves to their windows?" The answer is given in verse 5 which says: "Then the Lord your God will come, and all the holy ones with him. John, the apostle, wrote: "Behold, He is coming with the clouds",(Rev 1:17).

The cloud formations are images of the congregation in her high and exalted position, the holy ones with whom Jesus is inseparably united and who will accompany Him on his return, as it says in Colossians 3:4: "When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory".

Many Christians believe that, on His return, the Lord Jesus will put His feet on the Mount of Olives in the literal and natural sense of the word. They attempt to support this idea by quoting Acts 1:11 which says that the Lord Jesus will come in the same way as the disciples saw Him go to heaven. I want to point out that this chapter of Acts primarily concerns the 'coming' of Jesus by his Spirit in our inner man. Yes, there will also be a visible comming, and that is what the two men in white robes were referring to when they were with the disciples at our Lord's ascension. The Lord Jesus, Who has entirely withdrawn into the spiritual world, will once more be seen in the visible world when the harvest of the earth is ripe; when the faithful have reached spiritual perfection and blamelessness.

At His appearance on earth the Lord will be accompanied by a "great multitude which no man could number ". They will have bodies similar to the body of the Lord when He appears, enabling them to function on earth. As a spiritual temple in heavenly Jerusalem, they form an unbreakable unity, and on earth they represent their King amongst all peoples, nations and tongues. In the millennium their main task will be to submit the whole earth under His dominion, that peace and justice will reign continuously.

According to Isaiah 2:2, the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, that is, when the work of the Holy Spirit has reached full development; when a time of salvation has started. On that day there shall be neither cold nor frost. And there shall be continuous day, (it is known presently to the Lord), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light. Then there shall be no more change from day to night, from light to darkness, but there shall be day only. Then there will be neither cold nor frost but the climate will be mild everywhere.

It's obvious that this description should not be taken literally, for God said in Genesis 8:22 that: "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease". It is clear that we are dealing with pictures depicting spiritual realities here. Light is the image of life, and "the life was the light of men", (John 1:4). Night is the image of lifelessness. That is why it says in Revelation 21:25, "There shall be no more night there".

Zechariah predicted a time when life will triumph, when there will be continuous light for the people of God. There will no longer be any change from days of undisturbed life to days of tribulation and anxiety. As it says in Isaiah 60:20, "Your sun shall no more go down, nor your moon withdrew itself; for the Lord will be your everlasting light, and your days of mourning shell be ended". Zechariah 14:6-7 declares that the Israel of God will no longer have periods of life and barrenness, but instead there will be "continuous life". Through the triumphant power of the Holy Spirit all days will be as one day for spiritual Israel: full of life and light.

The time in which this will be fulfilled is in the Lord's hand. The Lord Jesus spoke of "times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority",(Acts 1:7). But this period of light will certainly fall in the evening of world-history: "For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and thick darkness the peoples; but the Lord will rise upon you, and his glory will be seen upon you",(Isaiah 60:2). When the victorious armies of the Word of God have destroyed antichrist, the Kingdom of Peace will start, of which Zecharia speaks about in 14:7-.

I want to make it clear that on earth all blessings will be effected by those belonging to the body of Jesus Christ. After all, the groaning creation mentioned in Romans 8:19 does not look forward to the restoration of the (natural) geographical people of Israel as an instrument of Salvation. Rather, to the manifestation of the sons of God for which it waits with eager longing. Nobody but the faithful have received the command from the Lord to preach the gospel to the whole creation,(Mark 16:15). The body of Christ is and always will be the instrument of God's hand to make known to the manifold wisdom of God to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, and consequently also on earth as well, (Eph 3:10).

[Gilbert]

Hi! Doug!

Here are some further thoughts which also deal with natural pictures depicting spiritual realities in the scriptures; namely some verses related to the return of Jesus.

We are enabled to understand these verses (in fact, the entire Bible)  through faith because it is precisely our faith which allows us to perceive "the evidence of things unseen"; to peer (as it were) into the kingdom of the heavens; aka: the invisible world of the spirits.

Faith is first and foremost occupied with "the evidence of things unseen", (Heb 11:1). It is a function of the spirit just as the mind is a function of the soul. Faith lays hold on the things of the unseen world and deals with them, in the same way as the mind lays hold on the things of the visible world of the senses. Faith deals with things we do not see. To understand the things of the unseen world and those of the visible world, faith and mind therefore have to go together. The Bible calls this "enlightened eyes of the mind".

Therefore, our reading of the scriptures must always be VERTICAL as opposed to horizontal, (so to speak). The Scriptures introduce ideas and concepts which can only be understood with our minds preoccupied "on things above" ... the invisible world of the spirits. Those who refuse the ability to think 'vertically', (no insight into the heavenly places), are living in times of ignorance, (Acts 17:30). This is why Jesus could say: "They do not know what they are doing". They fail to comprehend the events/conflicts in the unseen world. The Gospel of the Kingdom is a closed book to them. Their state could be compared to the 'wisdom' of the king Solomon. Despite Solomon's wisdom, unprecedented in the days before and after him, the Lord Jesus considered the wisdom of Solomon as minor importance when compared to the knowledge of the 'kingdom of heavens', (1Kings 3:5-15; Matthew 12:42).

When the Scriptures say that the return of Jesus is "IN clouds", this is a visible picture depicting an invisible reality.

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory", (Mark 13:26). "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and on the cloud one sat like to the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle", (Rev.14:14).

When an architect designs a building, he first creates a model and then graduates into constructing the building itself. God does just the opposite! He created the building first (heavens) and then the model (earth) afterwards. We who are born anew of the Spirit, it is the building (heavenly places) which is reality for us and not the model.

Not unlike today, the teachings of Jesus during His ministry had to count with the social, cultural and spiritual development which the people in those days had. The purpose of Scripture is that highly spiritual knowledge be taught in terms of normal daily usage and language. That is why the Lord Jesus spoke in parables so that the people listening to Him might be compelled to attain to a higher understanding and a transformation of meanings. The Gospel of the Kingdom gives us the insight which enables us to refuse to take the image for the reality. The Lord wants us to be transformed and renewed in our minds, that we should leave the old, visible realities and lay hold on the new spiritual and invisible things of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Revelation 14:14 says, "Then I looked, and lo, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand". This mass of clouds is a cloud, or mist of dew, in the heat of harvest, (Is 18:4). In his poetical language David called these splendid towers of cloud "the wings of morning", (Ps 139:9).

The mention of clouds when describing the return of Jesus is a natural picture depicting an unseen spiritual reality. The clouds are a picture of spiritual mankind, of the sons of God who are brought forth by the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As millions of water drops high above the earth form a close unity, so the faithful family of God has her position "above" in the heavenly places. Matthew 24:30 says: "Then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"; "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen", (Rev 1:7).

The cloud is a picture of the church of Jesus Christ. A vapor arose from the sea and clouds have been formed. In the bible the sea is the image of the spiritual world, as the earth is the image of the visible, material world.  In the invisible world the waters, the spirits, are separated. All religions on earth are from below. Only those who belong to Jesus are from above. Jesus told the religious leaders of his day: "You are from below. I am from above; you are of this world; I am not of this world (John 8:23).

The cloud consists of millions of drops of water.The water is the unseen inner man of the heart; it rises up by the power of the Word of Him who is called the Sun of righteousness. In the heavenly places all the drops of water together form the cloud. As a drop of water evaporates from the sea and rises into the air, so at his regeneration man is resurrected from the Sea of Death and transplanted into the heavenly places. Once there, he begins to function in the Kingdom of God.

When Jesus returns, He will be inseparably united with his people. That is why it says:" Behold, he is coming with the clouds". And that is why it becomes true that we, "have been seated in heavenly places". When at the close of time the church is changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, to join the cloud, the church of all ages, it says: "And in the sight of their foes they went up".

When the bible says that in the latter days Jesus will come with the clouds of heaven, it means that He returns with His church. This descending shows that the believer's inner man receives a new body, enabling him to function in the visible world. 1 Corinthians 15:44 says that a spiritual body is raised. To be raised means that by an outside force a living person is put back into the earthly sphere. At the resurrection from the dead, soul and spirit (the spiritual body) are raised to be clothed with a body consisting of elements from the earth. Only then can the spiritual body, the inner man, rise to take up his work in the visible world.

The same idea is expressed when from the world heavenly Jerusalem descends to the visible world of the earth. This shows us the moment when the dead receive their new bodies and are to be united with those who are still on earth in a mortal body. This is the time of the seventh or last trumpet. Those who were left are now changed in a moment. "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord" (1Thess 5:15-17).

[Molly]

wow!  You guys--Doug and Gilbert--

I think I'll just sit at your feet and listen to you talk for a while...  :gangel:




17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power...

--Eph 1

[Gilbert]

wow!  You guys--Doug and Gilbert--
I think I'll just sit at your feet and listen to you talk for a while...  :gangel:
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power...
--Eph 1

Good Morning Molly!

That's the last thing you want to be doing ... sittin' at my feet!
I suppose if the Lord had commanded us to do one another's laundry, your comment might be more acceptable. Sadly, this wasn't to be. So, I should warn you that my being busy in this Forum has left me unable to change to clean socks fer 'bout a week now. :soap:

Anyways, it all merely shows that I have read more than my share of books and literature over the years. These same ideas are very widely known and are hardly completely of my own invention/insight.

It all has to do with what Mark named as "the gospel of Jesus Christ"; or what the Apostle Paul named, "the gospel of God".

Several years ago I realized that it was not sufficient to merely know the gospel ABOUT Jesus (Gospel of Repentance) and that I had also to come to know the gospel OF Jesus as well, (Gospel of the Kingdom). After all, according to Matthew 24:14, it is the Gospel of the Kingdom which is to be preached in this endtime.

Mat 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Mat 9:35  And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mar 1:14  Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God.
Rom 1:9  For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 15:16  That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Rom 15:19  Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Rom 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

[Redlettervoice]

GILBERT

Lots of truth in those last two posts.  I want to study them, got so
much to read now, I am on overload, but I must study those two
out. 

I can see the Mt. of Olives, as "death" for it is said to be "mount of
corruption" in the center colomn reference some place in the old
testament.  I can find that for you if you don't know.

As long as people do not understand the complete work of Calvary that
Jesus nailed one thing "to" the cross, thus cancelling it out, and that
that in itself set in motion the New Covenant, of course, there will
be a crying to the MOUNTAINS to cover them.  But "their" covering
to is the Spirit of the Lord.  And God "does" expect a recognition of
HIS work, and yes, they will be ONE with HIM in that day! 

It is this overcoming that is the Son's perfect love for the Father.
quote of Moving Always Thanks Moving........that was good.


...
When Jesus came to this PERFECTION, He was ONE with the Father. And said so.

And said: In My Father's House are Many Mansions. Many Mansions?

He must have been IN those Mansions.........when He spoke to those coming after
HIM, "In that day, ye shall KNOW ye are in Me, and I AM in the Father, and I
in YOU."

So Jesus was "clothed upon" with those Mansions. He was IN the Father. He
had as a man reached His goal. For Himself. He was IN the Father.

But for His followers, He spake thus: I go to prepare a place for YOU, that
where I AM, ye may be also. In "that" day, ye shall know I am in my Father,
ye in me, and I in you." So this must have been the PLACE He prepared.

It was at this time that He bore the Name that "glorified" the Father, when
one asked what they would and it was DONE!!! Up until this time, nothing had
been asked in this NAME, He was showing the NAME of the Father, plainly.

And it was HIS will that those that had been "given to HIM" be where He was,
for this reason: That they could behold the glory that the Father had given "Him".  He allows the Christ "formed" in us, to "share" in this
glory.  He became the "heir" of "all things" and "we" are JOINTHeirs.

We have a HOUSE!!~! of MANY Mansions! Not just ONE! Many! A Building
not made with Hands........It is our "clothing" ........even as it was Jesus'
CLOTHING. He was then "clothed upon" with this HOUSE ......The Invisible

Glory of His Father!

Scratching the surface!  Really. 

Thanks, GILBERT, for sharing so much of your revelation.  Bless you
for it.

[Molly]

That's the last thing you want to be doing ... sittin' at my feet!

lol.  Maybe I should have put it this way--

1 Samuel 25:41
[She bowed down with her face to the ground and said,] "Here is your maidservant, ready to serve you and wash the feet of my master's servants."


Not many know the full and complete gospel of God, myself included.


RED--Here is your scripture--


2 Kings 23:13
And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.

[Gilbert]

Hi! RedLetterVoice

I'm feelin' like I won the lottery today.
Why?
Well, seems that I've mysteriously graduated to being a Forum "Full Member" here this morning.
On the other hand, I've spent half my Christian life avoiding membership an' constraints like like that.
So, I'm a bit perplexed about it all.  :sigh:

Your comments brought to mind a story from my childhood.
I had an uncle who was fond of mashing up everyday sayings. One winter cold day while walking down the street together, he blurted out: "Amen, Amen I say unto you, many are cold, but few are frozen".
When I read your comments about 'Mansions' I half grinned to myself saying, "Amen, Amen I say unto you, there are many houses but few mansions".

Yes, RedLetterVoice, for all we think we might know concerning the ultimate purposes of God, they do indeed (as you said) "scratch the surface".
And that precisely is what makes our days so very exciting; every day our inner life is spoken to by the Word of God and confirms our hope in His appearing in us.

[gregoryfl]

Most of Christian history has been replete with believers waiting anxiously, thinking that theirs was the generation that the Lord would come again. The so-called "second coming of Christ" remains one of the most popular subjects in Christianity today. Here is what I understand about this. Hopefully you will find life in it.

If he wanted to speak of his coming, he would have used the word "erkomai" instead. Now, Jesus did use that word, but I want to share what I believe to be Jesus' understanding in a mystery of what his presence consists of.
The word parousia is used twice in the New Testament when it does not apply to Jesus, but to the apostle Paul. These, and other, uses of the word establish its real meaning. Paul expresses others' appraisal of him, saying, "For, His letters, they say, are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence [parousia] is weak, and his speech is despised" (2Cor. 10:10).

And again, writing to the saints at Philippi, Paul says, "So then, my gift-cared-ones, even as you have always listened, not only in my presence [parousia], but now much more in my absence," (Phil. 2:12).

It can be seen that it would be incorrect to insert the word coming in these texts. In these passages it is the presence of a human being that is involved, so we understand what Paul means. Paul was not speaking about his coming, but his actual presence in their midst after having arrived. So all that we need to do is apply that same understanding of the word "parousia" as "presence" in order to realize what the scriptures mean which discuss the parousia of our Lord; that meaning being his actual presence, not His "coming."
Nowhere does parousia mean "coming" or "coming again." I was taught most of my life that the "second coming of Christ" is the hope of the Church. It is not His second coming that is the hope of the Church, but it is his presence which is the hope of the church. The parousia is life in the presence of God, and the increasing revelation given to us of that fact. The parousia is the presence of his glory. How his presence in glory is seen is a mystery that Paul revealed.

Christ is indeed coming, but not in the way most think. Yes, he comes bodily, for the appearance and presence of Christ is in his body. "Now you are the body of the Anointed-One." The parousia of Christ is in the body. Consider carefully what Paul here writes, for here is where he explains the manner of his presence in glory:

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven ... when He shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day" (2Th 1:7,10).

That is the presence, the coming of the Son of God in and through the Body of Christ. And He is coming, from glory to glory, from experience to experience, from inworking to inworking, until we know the power and glory of his presence in all the fullness of himself.
The parousia of Jesus, the presence of the son of God, is a past, present and future reality. His parousia is the ongoing, progressive unfolding of Himself. I encourage any who are looking for a future manifestation of the Lord to instead turn to each other, and to ourselves as believers, and watch as the revealing of his presence [parousia] is unfolded for all the world to plainly see in the lives of his body.

One more small point I would like to make. Paul wrote this to the Thessalonian believers:

May the God of completeness himself set apart you completely. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless in the presence of our Lord Jesus the Anointed-One. (1Th 5:23)

Most translations read "May your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The word translated "until" is the little preposition "en", which should be translated "in" as it is a preposition of direction into, or in.

There is a world of difference between being preserved blameless until the coming of the Lord, and being preserved blameless in the presence of the Lord! Is it not by his abiding presence that we are able to be kept and preserved blameless, faultless, without blemish or spot? It is indeed in Christ that we are kept. This verse is not speaking of any second coming, but an everyday, every moment reality.

Ron

[gregoryfl]

Just to add my own confirmation to what has been said thus far...This coming is also associated with what most of us have heard many times, the expression, "Jesus is coming on the clouds of heaven." That is most certainly true, he did say that he was coming on the clouds of heaven, But those are not literal fluffy clouds in the sky. Brothers and sisters, those clouds are you and me! Such a phenomenon started in the east in Jerusalem and spread to the far reaches of the west, just as lightning. Indeed, this is not secret thing, but is visible to everyone. This is no mere event, something in the future to look up in the sky for, but something that started in the first century at Pentecost, and continues today, and beyond, for he does not say, he will sit, nor does he say he will come, but rather that he is sitting, and coming. Here is the verse in question:

Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky."

This denotes continuous action over time.

The cloud has always denoted the presence of God. This presence was always denoted as ONE cloud.

God consistently manifested Himself in ONE GLORY CLOUD. There was always just the ONE SINGLE CLOUD. One cloud over mount Sinai. One cloud resting upon the tabernacle in the wilderness. One cloud shining in the Most Holy Place. One cloud filling Solomon's temple. One cloud over the mount of Transfiguration. And finally, Christ ascended in ONE SINGLE CLOUD. Yet Jesus speaks of coming on [not a cloud] but the clouds [plural]. Why? This is significant.

Think on this truth-Are we not the temple of the Lord? Where did the glory of God dwell in the shekinah cloud? In the temple. Where was God resident? In that cloud in the temple. See the wonderful truth? We, being many, each with God's shekinah glory in us as his temple, are the clouds, wherein the Lord is present in, on, with, and among. This is indeed Jesus being revealed IN his saints

Ron

[Gilbert]

Hi Gregoryfl

Jus' droppin' in tuh say that I very much enjoyed reading your two recent Posts on this subject.
Gotta' go back an' read 'em again now; things always seem to taste an' digest even better the second time around ... an' the third too.  :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

Good Postings Guys..ty for sharing... :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

not my words here but MV makes a few relevant points to whats been shared on Clouds

Clouds
Throughout the first five books of the Old Testament, a single cloud invariably typified Christ. In Genesis, the token of God's covenant with Noah, that He would never again destroy all flesh with a flood of waters, was never mentioned apart from the cloud in which it would appear (Gen 9:13-16). In fact, God specified that the rainbow would be preceded by the cloud coming over the earth (Gen 9:14). In every other instance of a single cloud in the Pentateuch, the cloud that preceded Israel thoughout the wilderness is under discussion. In these instances, the Hebrew word is ‛ânân (Strong's #6051). The cloud was a pillar that led Israel while they walked in the light of day, but while they walked in the darkness of night, the pillar was of fire. (That being the case, we may conclude that we can walk in light and be led by a shining cloud, or we can walk in darkness and be led by fiery trial. Either way, we are led by God, but we may be led in peace or in judgment. 'For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.' (1Co 11:31-32)) This same pillar, while providing light for God's people (then or now) during the night, showed only darkness to the persuing denizens of Egypt (the world). When the cloud would fill the tabernacle (and later, the temple) of the Lord with the glory of the Lord, neither Moses (the Law - Exo 40:35) nor the priests were able to stand to minister and were displaced from the temple (1Ki 8:11; 2Ch 5:14). The glory and light of the Lord are associated with a cloud in other instances throughout the Old Testament as well (Job 37:15; Eze 1:28, 10:3-4). The loftiness of clouds is used to describe the supremacy of the Lord in that he is higher than the clouds (Nah 1:3). The Lord is commonly depicted as riding upon a cloud (Isa 19:1; Mat 24:30, 26:64; Mar 13:26, 14:62; Luk 21:27), and in Psalm 140:3, clouds are said to be the Lord's chariot. In this sense of loftiness, clouds are also likened to the vain aspirations of evil men (Job 20:6; Isa 14:14; 2Pe 2:17; Jud 1:12). However, God's people with whom he is well pleased are also likened to clouds or otherwise associated with them in the loftiness of their calling (Isa 60:8; 1Th 4:17; Heb 12:1; Rev 11:12).

In most cases, throughout, clouds act in the capacity of a covering (Job 22:14, 26:9; Psa 105:39). The word most commonly translated as 'cloud' or 'clouds,' ‛ânân, is in fact derived from a word meaning 'covering' (‛ânan - Strong's #6049). In some cases, this covering was for a blessing (Isa 25:5, 44:22); in others, it was for a punishment or curse (Job 3:5; Lam 2:1, 3:44; Eze 30:18, 32:7). '...He scattereth his bright cloud: And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth. He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy' (Job 37:11-13). Quite often, clouds operate in close association with darkness even in connection with God (Job 38:9; Eze 32:7-8, 34:12; Joe 2:2; Zep 1:15). In fact, there are many Old Testament descriptions of God's abode that include clouds and darkness (Deu 4:11, 5:22; 2Sa 22:12; Psa 97:2). Both as a covering and in connection with darkness, clouds are described as the earth's garment (Job 38:9)

Another aspect of clouds for which they are used as types is their impermanence. As such, they are likened to man; be it his flesh (Job 7:9), his welfare (Job 30:15), his goodness (kindness, mercy) (Hos 6:4), or his works (Hos 13:3).

This can be contrasted with prophecies of the coming Messiah in which He either rides a cloud (is over them) or in which there are no clouds. And therein lies an indication of the primary function of clouds as types. Whether as blessing or judgment, a cloud has always indicated that the associated subject was not fully revealed or that there was some mediating factor between the parties that the cloud divided. The fact that the morning is cloudless when Christ, He who rules over men, arrives (2Sa 23:4), shows that the coming of Jesus Christ is a revelation and a fulfillment. His work has permanence. He is over all and covers all.

[sheila]

Wow, really enjoying these posts!

  a little interesting aside.......there is a very high mountain

in this world at present...named EVE REST...I beleive it

is the hope placed in the promised seed...by the Mother of all

the living.  There is a stone cut out, not by human hands..

that grows and fills the whole earth.

                          Sheila

[Doug]

You commented that "mountains are symbols" and that much is very true. But then you attached additional ideas which I found difficult.

We should note that in the New Covenant the names of mountains no longer have any geographical significance. They are merely 'shadows' or 'parables' pointing towards the "evidence of things unseen". Instead, mountains are natural pictures of spiritual realities and which denote powers in the spiritual world.

Paul's reference to Mount Sinai in Gal. 4:25 indeed has geographical significance. Paul said it is located in Arabia, outside the boundaries of the promised land; don't you think that is significant? The exact location may be less significant, but the fact it was located in Arabia seemed significant to Paul, or he would not have mentioned it. He equates the "Jerusalem which now is" with Mount Sinai, and says it is "in bondage with her children." 

For instance, Isaiah 54:11-12 is picture of invisible powers. Our Lord Jesus Christ said about the casting out of evil spirits: "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move hence to yonder place', and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you",(Matt 17:20). So, we now also understand the spiritual meaning of Psalm 97:5: "The mountains melt like wax before the Lord". And in Psalm 46.3, "though the mountains tremble with its tumult". When Jonah was carried in the belly of the fish to the bottom of the sea or abyss (an image of Sheol) he said: " ... at the roots of the mountains, I went down... ", (Jonah 2:6).

Isn't saying that mountains represent "spiritual realities" a bit vague? That statement is so vague, it seems virtually meaningless. How do the features of mountains relate to "spiritual realities"? I don't really see how the examples mentioned support your claims. If you do not explain the "spiritual meaning of" Psalm 97:5 or Jonah 2:6, those claims are rather like "clouds without water." Note the contrast between "clouds" and "smoke" on the one hand, and "mountains" on the other. God's promises are like "mountains."

Sinai "melted" in the sense that the power of the Mosaic legislation has "melted away" for those who are in Christ.
   
Judges 5:5
The mountains melted from before the LORD, even that Sinai from before the LORD God of Israel.

Maybe that is what David referred to in Psalm 97:5. But the name of that mountain remains quite significant, doesn't it?

In the New Testament, Mount Zion is the image of the Holy Spirit. It is the mountain on which the city of God and spiritual Israel are located. That is why we read in Hebrews 12:22: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem". The great power of the Holy spirit is indicated by the height of Mount Zion, as it is written: "And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God",(Rev 21:10). Not a wonder Isaiah prophesied: "It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains",(Isaiah 2:2).

Those who belong to the body of Jesus Christ are based upon the power of the Holy Spirit, as it says: "Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand",(Rev 14:1).

I think the above argument is flawed. Mount Zion was the location of the temple in Jerusalem, and so Zion (or Sion in the NT) is simply a name for the temple of God, which in turn, represents the church. The river that flows from the temple of God in Ezekiel pictures the Gospel, and the holy Spirit, and the knowledge of God, flowing to the world. That is the role of the church, to be the "light of the world."

IMHO, your claim that "Mount Zion is the image of the Holy Spirit" misses the significance of the temple as the house of God, and thus the dwelling place of the holy Spirit. Each Christian is called a temple, as Jesus was. And the church as a whole is the temple of God.

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The saints are identified with the stones of the temple, and Christ is the chief cornerstone. Just as the temple stood on Mount Zion, the 144,000 in Rev 14:1 are also pictured standing on Mount Zion, as these represent the church, those who are "in Christ."

God's people will find refuge on Mount Zion, as it says in Joel 2:32: "For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape". Mount Zion is the image of the Holy Spirit who guarantees eternal and imperishable life to the Israel of God.

Again, Christ identified himself with the temple:

John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

He is the chief cornerstone of it; the saints are "lively stones," that are included in it, 1 Peter 2:5.

Mount Zion was the hill in Jerusalem where the temples were located, and thus Mount Zion represents the church, the dwelling place of God's spirit. The water that flows from the temple in Joel 3:18 represents the spirit of God. Joel says it will "water the valley of Shittim."

Joel 3:18
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

The valley of Shittim is located on the east of Jordan, and it is where the Israelites camped before they entered the promised land. That is where they committed fornication with the daughters of Moab.

Numbers 25:1
And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.

The spiritual significance for the church is that the spirit of God, and the truth of God's word is the remedy for the spiritual seduction of God's people, as described by Paul in 2 Cor. 11:3. This is very prevalent today in the church.

On this, we need to take heed to what John said; the promise to the church is that the spirit of Christ will lead us to the truth.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

And Jesus said,

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Jesus warned people to "flee to the mountains" meaning the promises of God, and to seek God's righteousness, not to try to save our own lives. That applies in all of the age of the church.

Psalm 36:6
Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast.

Doug

[Taffy]

Hi Doug\Gilbert :icon_flower:

For mine you both seem to be  speaking much the same ,   :dontknow:  Mountains are Kingdoms, Kingdoms is where we Reign..The Kingdom of of Judaism was that Of Death , Death Reigning over them, the New Jerusalem\HIS mountain ,in HIM we abide , reign and rule over death, receiving the promises...Death being swallowed up in Victory :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:  Smoke for mine symbolises HIS righteousness OR the SELF righteousness which came via the law.  :icon_flower:


:icon_flower:

[Molly]

Think on this truth-Are we not the temple of the Lord? Where did the glory of God dwell in the shekinah cloud? In the temple. Where was God resident? In that cloud in the temple. See the wonderful truth? We, being many, each with God's shekinah glory in us as his temple, are the clouds, wherein the Lord is present in, on, with, and among. This is indeed Jesus being revealed IN his saints.

Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky."


"power"

G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.



Luke 10:19
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.


"power"

G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.




Exodus 15:6
Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.



Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

[Redlettervoice]

Wow, really enjoying these posts!

  a little interesting aside.......there is a very high mountain

in this world at present...named EVE REST





And in the last days, the MOUNTAIN of the Lord..........Mind of Christ..........shall be ESTABLISHED.........stay put.........and they shall learn "war" no more...........

Shelia, I never noticed that about EVE REST......"Mt. Everest."
Isn't that where the Ark landed?

...I beleive it

is the hope placed in the promised seed...by the Mother of all

the living.  There is a stone cut out, not by human hands..

that grows and fills the whole earth.

                          Sheila

[chuckt]

Gen 8:4   And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. 

Ararat = "the curse reversed: precipitation of curse"

1) a mountainous region of eastern Armenia, between the river Araxes and the lakes Van and Oroomiah, the site where Noah's ark came to rest

2) (TWOT) the mountain where Noah's ark came to rest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ararat