Conclusion on UR theology

[lee100]

Hey my UR friends,

The talk of an eternal hell-fire has obscured the issue of condemnation and damnation. Both Jesus and Paul actually use those words - "condemnation" and "damnation" - no getting away from this. Never mind the method of condemnation or damnation. The method is not the issue here.

So the question I come back to is: demonstrate that "all men will be saved" by giving us the number of all men created and thereby prove mathematically and factually that "all men will be saved." In the absence of such a proof, all you have are texts from which you INFER by interpretation certain things but cannot absolutely prove.

Theoretically there is a huge hole in the universalist argument. The statement that "all men will be saved" has not been logically proven from a mathematical standpoint. Scripturally, the texts used to support this statement can be used to both prove AND disprove it.

Can we have a roll count of all men?

The burden of proof is on the universalist to make the assertion that "all men will be saved" a factual, empirical, demonstrable conclusion. The only verse in the entire New Testament that comes close to talking about the salvation of all men is 1 Timothy 2:3. One sole verse among some 2,000 passages! Why this scarcity if the concept of universal salvation is supposedly basic and fundamental to God's plan? Seems as if neither Jesus or Paul paid very much attention to it. For that matter who among Peter, James, Jude, or John ever used the phrase "all men will be saved", much less focus on the idea? They all told people to repent; they did not go around talking about some abstract universal salvation. Yet it becomes the universalist's obsession.

The universalist should also ask him or herself why The Master did not make a crystal-clear statement that "all men will be saved" but left some to try and infer such a thing. However be absolutely sure that your inference is right when men's destinies are at stake...

Note: This essay is not an effort to persuade universalists that they are wrong, merely that they have not made a persuasive case intellectually and have absolutely no scriptural evidence to submit on such a crucial issue.

Resource: David Barnes

[Tony N]

lee,
I wonder what David Barnes says about this:

"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of the believer. These things command and teach." (1 Tim.4:10,11).

You and David are disobedient to our Lord.

You and David teach "God will not save all mankind" (1 Tim.2:4 re-worded to fit your limitarian doctrine).

You and David teach "God is not the Saviour of all mankind, just especially the believer" (1 Tim.4:10 revised to accord with your limitarian doctrine).

So you and David are teaching the opposite of what we are told to teach.

Shame on you!
Shame!

[Paul Hazelwood]

This whole article is refuted with one verse.


1 Timothy 2:4


An inference because Universalists cannot calculate the exact number of human beings?   LOL. Rely on the promises of God.

[WhiteWings]

The talk of an eternal hell-fire has obscured the issue of condemnation and damnation. Both Jesus and Paul actually use those words - "condemnation" and "damnation" - no getting away from this. Never mind the method of condemnation or damnation. The method is not the issue here.

So the question I come back to is: demonstrate that "all men will be saved" by giving us the number of all men created and thereby prove mathematically and factually that "all men will be saved."

Mathematically. As in 2 UR verses vs 5 ET verses and ET wins? That would mean a contradiction.
Plus what is condemnation/damnation? And how does it prove it lasts for ever and so not all can be saved?

Theoretically there is a huge hole in the universalist argument. The statement that "all men will be saved" has not been logically proven from a mathematical standpoint. Scripturally, the texts used to support this statement can be used to both prove AND disprove it.

But when using a number of verse it gets more and more difficult to to read them as ET verses.
And with proper translations/understanding of the Hebrew/Greek ET support gets even worse.
But you already know that. That's why you just dump one verse and if it gets refuted you just start another thread.

The burden of proof is on the universalist to make the assertion that "all men will be saved"

So; if the HS inspires "all men will be saved" the URists have to prove the HS was right?

a factual, empirical, demonstrable conclusion. The only verse in the entire New Testament that comes close to talking about the salvation of all men is 1 Timothy 2:3. One sole verse among some 2,000 passages! Why this scarcity if the concept of universal salvation is supposedly basic and fundamental to God's plan?

Why the scarcity of hell in the NT and OT?
I'm speaking about the twisted ET version of hell. Please quote 1 verse that supports an eternal hell with real flames etc.

Seems as if neither Jesus or Paul paid very much attention to it. For that matter who among Peter, James, Jude, or John ever used the phrase "all men will be saved", much less focus on the idea?

Maybe you just don't grap their words? Or maybe they where to busy warning about hell. Mmm, they didn't do that either.
What the hell those guys where doing? :Chinscratch:

They all told people to repent; they did not go around talking about some abstract universal salvation. Yet it becomes the universalist's obsession.

Where I live the police warns me not to drive to fast. Do you think they mean I will get a speeding ticket or that I will get the electric chair?

The universalist should also ask him or herself why The Master did not make a crystal-clear statement that "all men will be saved"

The master did. It's in every Bible. But it's you that states teh verse you quoted doesn't exist.

Note: This essay is not an effort to persuade universalists that they are wrong

I'm glad to read that. I almost felt sorry for the author if the article was meant serious.
Mods please move this thread to the humor section :pointlaugh:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

People, This is only My thinking.
New Haven and New Earth. i.e. All things, earth/all things made from atoms of God's making, man, plant, rock, air, space, and all other things you can list.

First thing is not to think of Revelation as the last book in the bible, because Cor, goes much further into the future than any book of Revelation.

If you want a comprehensive study in that book, look up J.P. Eby at Sigler Ministries.
Now as to the here and now/ after life.
The promise was that The Anointing would DO certain things, and He Has Done Those Things...

2009 years ago the father raised His Son out of death, and Finished all Death, since then all things have been in life, all made alive in Christ. There is no more sin, the only sin is the sin that you make of your own Law Making and the following of those Laws and the braking of those self-made laws. We are LIVING IN CHRIST'S THOUSAND YEAR REIGNS NOW. It started when death was destroyed 2009 years ago.

Revelation of God ( Matt. 16:18 "upon") is the New System of things, When all things come to an understanding that a higher power controls things, "They" start there own quest to understand.

God is like this to me in the physical things,  in all things there are atoms, in all things there are 2 things, sold and space, but there is an unseen third thing, energy. This energy is in everything. In every corner of the known universe and beyond. This energy is connected like a thought process in a brain. His Brain.

There is a process going on that will bring a close to the reign of Jesus "His" Christ, When all will be IN all. When all things are dragged to the understanding that God IS and God IS Love. Then We will be Home in Him and what goes on after All is, together again is HIS concern. After life? there can never be an afterlife because the use of the word says that life has to end, and life IN God never ends. What God does with His life/us, is His design.

Summery, All sin is ended at the cross, only self-reinforced-delusions i.e.  Law/sin/death.
Everyone will come to love God somehow-somewhere in "time", When time ends, there will only be God/us.

The new heavens and earth is NOW. Since life was given to all things when His Son Did It For Us whether or not we want to except that death was destroyed so long ago.

Lee Damboise II

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The lack of being able to number them, is without a doubt, the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard, bar none. Apparently, this blinded author you have trotted out here is clueless about the outer court (read ALL MEN here) NOT being measured.

It was not measured because the multitudes upon multitudes were/are so vast as to not be contained by it; AND, of His Kingdom there will be NO END. Find out where His Kingdom is and then you can figure out why the 'ark covers' of SKINS were/are 5 in number.  :sigh: Blessings.....

[HartleyDamboiseII]

People, This is only My thinking.
New Haven and New Earth. i.e. All things, earth/all things made from atoms of God's making, man, plant, rock, air, space, and all other things you can list.

First thing is not to think of Revelation as the last book in the bible, because Cor, goes much further into the future than any book of Revelation.

If you want a comprehensive study in that book, look up J.P. Eby at Sigler Ministries.
Now as to the here and now/ after life.
The promise was that The Anointing would DO certain things, and He Has Done Those Things...

2009 years ago the father raised His Son out of death, and Finished all Death, since then all things have been in life, all made alive in Christ. There is no more sin, the only sin is the sin that you make of your own Law Making and the following of those Laws and the braking of those self-made laws. We are LIVING IN CHRIST'S THOUSAND YEAR REIGNS NOW. It started when death was destroyed 2009 years ago.

Revelation of God ( Matt. 16:18 "upon") is the New System of things, When all things come to an understanding that a higher power controls things, "They" start there own quest to understand.

God is like this to me in the physical things,  in all things there are atoms, in all things there are 2 things, sold and space, but there is an unseen third thing, energy. This energy is in everything. In every corner of the known universe and beyond. This energy is connected like a thought process in a brain. His Brain.

There is a process going on that will bring a close to the reign of Jesus "His" Christ, When all will be IN all. When all things are dragged to the understanding that God IS and God IS Love. Then We will be Home in Him and what goes on after All is, together again is HIS concern. After life? there can never be an afterlife because the use of the word says that life has to end, and life IN God never ends. What God does with His life/us, is His design.

Summery, All sin is ended at the cross, only self-reinforced-delusions i.e.  Law/sin/death.
Everyone will come to love God somehow-somewhere in "time", When time ends, there will only be God/us.

The new heavens and earth is NOW. Since life was given to all things when His Son Did It For Us whether or not we want to except that death was destroyed so long ago.

Lee Damboise II

[claypot]

What's with LeeDam and his constant posts of the exact same thing? Is it just me or my computer? Now I'm seeing the same post multple times in the same thread.

What's up here?

Is this forum under attack or what?

cp

[WhiteWings]

Is this forum under attack or what?

It think it's the passion of a discovery...
Correct LD2?
PS only reply once  :bgdance:

[claypot]

Is this forum under attack or what?

It think it's the passion of a discovery...
Correct LD2?
PS only reply once  :bgdance:

I thought it was the new forum 'signature'. If I see one more time I'M going to cut my computer cord!!!!!!

cp

[Beloved Servant]

Preston Eby can have that affect on people.
I've read practically everything on his site.

[gregoryfl]

You want a headcount of all the men who will be saved? It is right there in scripture, IF you will only believe:

Eph 2:15 having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace;

There is only 1 new man spoken of in scripture, and we wear him. There is only 1 new creation, and we are part of it.

God declares to Abraham that, by that 1 seed, ALL nations will be blessed. Gen 26:24
God declares to Paul that, in that 1 man, ALL have been justified to life. Rom 5:18
God declares to Paul that, by that 1 man, many (the same many who were made sinners) will be made righteous. Rom 5:19

This goes all the way back to the Garden, my brother, for the entire human race, Adam and Eve, did not repent, but in fact, gave excuses for their sin, and yet God covered them in animal skins, picturing that covering of the new man that would take place when our Lord came. His punishment was sure. The condemnation and shame was certainly there, but in the midst of it all, there was a creator who loved, and was merciful, through it all!

May your eyes be opened to behold such a rich God, for his justice is not served by tormenting anyone forever. NEVER! That justice was served in Christ on the cross, and there it shall stay!

Ron

[claypot]

Preston Eby can have that affect on people.
I've read practically everything on his site.

I have too but I didn't take over a forum after reading his stuff!

Oh well, it it's done for love then I can understand.

cp

[HartleyDamboiseII]

No, I just wanted this other lee guy to see my post and hopefully reply but I guess he is lost somewhere.

Sorry for the repeated post.

Lee Damboise II

[WhiteWings]

Can we have a roll count of all men?

Luke 15:4  What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Now imagine a devine Shepherd that even before the lost sheep where born knew exactly where they would be hiding...

Maybe the sheep doesn't want to go with the Shepherd?
Luke 15:5  And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Poor sheep :sigh:  It wants so badly go to hell but its Shepherd just carries it to salvation...

[Cardinal]

Maybe the sheep doesn't want to go with the shepard?
Luke 15:5  And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Poor sheep :sigh:  It wants so badly go to hell but its Shepard just carries it to salvation...

:cloud9: Baaaad sheep.  :laughing7: Sorry....my baaaad......... :mrflo:  :icon_jokercolor:
Blessings.....

[sparrow]

Maybe the sheep doesn't want to go with the shepard?
Luke 15:5  And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Poor sheep :sigh:  It wants so badly go to hell but its Shepard just carries it to salvation...

:cloud9: Baaaad sheep.  :laughing7: Sorry....my baaaad......... :mrflo:  :icon_jokercolor:
Blessings.....

Oh Card.  :eyebrow:
That was so baaaad.

ACK! Now ya got me doing it!!

:laughing7:

lol..

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: ROFLOL....... :girlheart:

[willieH]

So the question I come back to is: demonstrate that "all men will be saved" by giving us the number of all men created and thereby prove mathematically and factually that "all men will be saved." In the absence of such a proof, all you have are texts from which you INFER by interpretation certain things but cannot absolutely prove.

:Yeahright: This is an IRRATIONAL statement, and you either, KNOW it -- or if you don't, then you are PURPOSELY IRRATIONAL which means:

You  are DELUSIONAL --  :dontknow:

Let's see you PROVE YOUR CASE with YOUR NUMBERS... and right backatcha... "in the ABSENCE of such proof, all you have is texts from which YOU INFER by INTERPRETATION, certain things, but CANNOT absolutely PROVE"...  :laughing7:

If "ALL" are not Saved, ...Then tell us HOW MANY are SAVED?   :laughing7:  If you cannot, then your own words condemn you to irrationality.

Theoretically there is a huge hole in the universalist argument. The statement that "all men will be saved" has not been logically proven from a mathematical standpoint. Scripturally, the texts used to support this statement can be used to both prove AND disprove it.

Go fish!  :laughing7:

If YOU REQUIRE such "proof", then YOU must be able to PROVE your "number" and substanciate it...

Just so's ya know...  Our FAITH is the substance upon which WE here @ Tentmaker stand as our "PROOF" -- Heb 11:1 -- the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN (such as the NUMBER of the Saved, which btw... IS noted as WITHOUT NUMBER -- Heb 11:12 -- INNUMERABLE -- so your REQUEST Scripturally cannot be FULFILLED for there are SO MANY SAVED, that the number is as the SAND of the SEA or the STARS of HEAVEN -- SO immense in NUMBER that they are -- Gen 22:17 -- WITHOUT Number!

So Lee, your "provoking" question PLAINLY finds its REBUKE in the WORD...  within YOUR ignorance OF IT...  :whistleshake:

Can we have a roll count of all men?

I've already addressed the FOLLY of your proposal... but just for funsies...

Let's hear YOUR "roll count" of TOTAL of the  FEW MEN you percieve as being "SAVED"!  :laughing7:

The burden of proof is on the universalist to make the assertion that "all men will be saved" a factual, empirical, demonstrable conclusion. The only verse in the entire New Testament that comes close to talking about the salvation of all men is 1 Timothy 2:3. One sole verse among some 2,000 passages!

Is that what your "pastor" toldya?  And YOU believe this?  :OhNo: :laughhand: :LH:

Cuz here are a few of over 100 verses which note this claim:

Rom 5:18 -- Justification of ALL MEN!

1 Cor 15 --  As IN ADAM, all DIE... so ...IN CHRIST - get that? IN CHRIST shall ALL be made alive

1 Tim 4:10 -- IS -- get that? ...IS... Savior of ALL MEN! Can't be an "IS", unless He in fact SAVE's'em!  :dontknow:

1 John 2:2 -- propitiation [atoning sacrifice] for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD

2 Cor 5:19 -- RECONCILED the WORLD to Himself!  Not just the Nutty ones that think themselves SPECIAL over others for NO REASON = ILLOGICAL.

Col 1:20 -- Cross RECONCILED ALL things, not just SOME...

John 1:9 -- the WORD "lighteth" EVERY MAN that comes into the world

1 John 4:14 -- SAVIOR of the WORLD

Do you have a Bible, Lee100?  Or are you just reading your churches "doctrinal statement" or your pastors sermon from last sunday... :laughing7:  Want some more?  Okay, since you INSIST:

2 Pet 3:9 -- GOD is NOT WILLING that ANY PERISH, but that ALL come to repentence... how do they REPENT? -- Rom 2:4 -- get a Bible & read it...

Heb 2:9 -- tasted death for EVERY MAN (not just YOU)

Rom 5:20 -- Where SIN abounded ...GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND in EVERY CASE that "SIN ABOUNDS", not just "yours"

Titus 2:11 -- Salvation has appeared to ALL MEN... how can this be?  MOST JEWS have NOT had "salvation" appear to them, nor has MOST of the WORLD (God SO LOVES)!  It is because Salvation is an issue that shall be held unto the LAST DAY... in which takes place RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT, and in which...

Phil 2:10-11 -- EVERY KNEE shall bow and tongue CONFESS [unto salvation] that JESUS CHRIST is Lord...

Want some OLD TESTAMENT Scriptures which attest to Salvation for ALL?  Okay... hold your horses, you are SO PUSHY sometimes!  :laugh:

Isaiah 25:7-8 -- the covering cast over ALL PEOPLE -- the Lord God shall wipe away tears from off of ALL FACES...

Gen 18:18 -- and ALL the nations of the earth shall be BLESSED -- IN HIM...

Isaiah 55:11 -- My WORD -- shall NOT return VOID -- and shall ACCOMPLISH that which I please and it shall PROSPER -- WHERETO -- I SENT it...  :dontknow: (see Luke 19:10)

Isaiah 59:1 -- The hand of YHVH is not SHORTENED that it cannot ...SAVE!

enough...

SEVENTEEN pertinent verses to the Salvation of ALL MEN...

A total of ...NONE for your belief!  You speak from southern regions of yourself...  :laughing7: 

In your own words  :thumbdown: ...verifying yourself with "David barnes" -- as if THAT (sinner's) "name" and words are more meaningful, ...than is the HOLY name of CHRIST and the WORD of YHVH God!  :pitiful:

Your pathetic presentation is about YOU, not about GOD who is NOT the RESPECTER of PERSONS that YOU say He is... are YOU saved LEE100? :rolleye: ...I thought so... how very CONVENIENT for you...  :thumbdown:

Why this scarcity if the concept of universal salvation is supposedly basic and fundamental to God's plan?

What is SCARCE is YOUR PRESENTATION of Scripture...  :laugh:

Seems as if neither Jesus or Paul paid very much attention to it. For that matter who among Peter, James, Jude, or John ever used the phrase "all men will be saved", much less focus on the idea? They all told people to repent; they did not go around talking about some abstract universal salvation. Yet it becomes the universalist's obsession.

SEEMS?  You do not sound assertive and confident... rather your UNSURETY finds its way to your lying mouth.  :thumbdown:

Preaching the "gospel" of DEFEAT in the stead of VICTORY...  :laughing7:  Paul spoke OFTEN about this, as did JOHN, as did JESUS... you just do not SEE with your CARNAL EYES, the Spiritual truth...  :sigh:

JESUS said -- Luke 19:10 -- came to SEEK and to SAVE that which was LOST... well, ...How many are LOST, Mr. Theology?  :dontknow:

It YOUR ScriptureLESS presentation that fails to show support of its SELF centered doctrine...

The universalist should also ask him or herself why The Master did not make a crystal-clear statement that "all men will be saved" but left some to try and infer such a thing.

The one thinking himself as saved and others NOT, should pray to know the truth... and would easily SEE that JESUS often spoke of this as I have already noted...

JESUS was described as the Lamb of God that TAKETH AWAY the sin of LEE100, I mean the WORLD -- John 1:29  If SIN is TAKEN AWAY, what pray tell divides us from SALVATION?

Put your tail between your legs and go preach DEATH elsewhere...  :thumbdown:

but WAIT!  First let's see how you close this pathetic post:

Note: This essay is not an effort to persuade universalists that they are wrong, merely that they have not made a persuasive case intellectually and have absolutely no scriptural evidence to submit on such a crucial issue.

Resource: David Barnes

:laughing7:  This is so sorrowful it is LAUGHABLE! You know, the same kind of thing as when a dog gets UGLY enough, he starts being cute!  That kind of "sorrowful" -- so pathetic, it begins to be comedic!

INTELLECTUALLY? :omg:

Is THAT what you think the WORD is about Lee100?   I notice you didn't post ONE SCRIPTURE, "intellectually speaking" or otherwise!  :pointlaugh:  :laughing7:

The WORD of GOD is not about INTELLECTUALITY... It is about SPIRITUALITY...

And NOT ONE verse of that WORD was presented by this foolish man  ("david barnes" whoever that is, not that it matters) ...OR more importantly -- YOURSELF, to debunk the Salvation of ALL MEN...  :dontknow:  NOT ONE!  :mshock:

"Cementing your case" with another "MAN'S word" - eh?  Wow!  I'm underwhelmed!  :wacko2: :pointlaugh: 

Not ONE Scripture did you note, to support your blasphemies... which only evidences your lack... :pitiful:  ...NOT ONE!  :thumbdown:

Come back when you are able to debate using the WORD, instead of putting your faith in some other (decieved) man's writings...  :boredom:

...willie  :HeartThrob: