If Jesus never said the word "all men saved" who did?

[lee100]

Hey all my UR friends,

If Jesus never said the words that "all men will be saved" then who did in the New Testament?
Universalists assume that Paul did. Is this true? Let's examine the verses used by universalists from Paul's epistles. Once again we will see whether Paul actually said that all men will be saved or whether all we have are inferences taken from interpretations of verses out of context.
The only verse in the whole New Testament that comes close to the phrase that "all men will be saved" is in 1 Timothy 2:3:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved."

The universalist says, "There it is!" To this proclamation the traditionalist states, "Hold on - God's will to save all men is not necessarily imposed on everyone." God may desire all men to be saved but that is not the same thing as saying that all men will be saved. The possibility and the actuality are two different things. Who is right?

The universalist asks, "Doesn't God's will always get done?" (the verse "His word does not return void to Him" being cited)? Really? Is the record of human history that God's will is always done? If it were, why would Jesus have prayed, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"? Why would he have needed to utter this prayer if a priori God's will is always done and in effect? If God's will is 100% in effect, why would Jesus have differentiated his will from the Father's when he said in Gethsemane, "Not my will but Thine"? Two wills, one deferring to the other. James says that the prayer of a righteous man "availeth much". But if God's will is always done, to what "avail" is the prayer of a righteous man?

Does the following verse sound as if God's will is inevitable and His commandments inexorable?
Leviticus 26:15 "And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant."

If all men will be saved, why would Paul have written in 1 Corinthians 9:16:

"For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!"

Why is there the "necessity" for Paul to preach the gospel and "woe" if he does not preach it? If all men are saved...so what if Paul preaches or not? Whether Paul carries out his task or not, the consequences should be the same according to the universalist. Does Paul feel this way?

The second most frequently cited verse from Paul in support of universalism is Romans 5:18:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Notice that in verse 18 the word "all" is indeed used. But not in the following verse. Condemnation and the gift of grace came upon ALL men but only MANY shall be made righteous. Why did Paul not use the word ALL in verse 19 following on the heels of the "all" used in verse 18? If ALL exercise the free gift of grace, then why are not ALL made righteous? Could it be that not ALL are saved?


The author of the epistle to the Hebrews (9:28) states, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many."

The sins of many, not all. The pattern is consistent in the New Testament that the gift of grace is offered to ALL but that only MANY are made righteous by the act of Christ (not ALL). See how the word "all" is abused and subtly replaces the word "many" in people's re-interpretations of Scripture.

Universalists like to say that "all will be made alive in Christ". Really? All will hear Christ's voice but to what effect? Their being made alive has what consequences (John 5:25):

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Coming out of the grave of the dead - to be made alive - can signify one of two things! One of which is...let's hear it - "damnation". Why did Jesus not say to BOTH thieves on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise"? Did Jesus miss the boat on that one to make it crystal-clear to every reader for all time that BOTH thieves would be saved regardless of their beliefs?

Another favorite universalist text from Paul is Philippians 2:10:

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Bowing to Jesus does not entail being saved. Where does the word "salvation" occur in that verse? Demons acclaimed Jesus as the son of the highest then went on to mock him. The US "confesses" or professes that China is ruled by the Communist Party - that does not meant that the US agrees with the Communist regime. Bowing and confessing has nothing to do with being saved. In the Middle Ages, peasants bowed to a king they detested and confessed to a priest they disrespected.

[Tony N]

If Jesus never said the word "all men saved" who did?

But Jesus did say "all humans will be saved" and said it to Paul and told Paul to say it to us.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Bowing to Jesus does not entail being saved. Where does the word "salvation" occur in that verse? Demons acclaimed Jesus as the son of the highest then went on to mock him.

Again your not paying attention to words.   The demons at the time of the account knew who Jesus is.   There is no account of them bowing and CONFESSING JESUS AS LORD.


The bible says no one says Jesus is Lord except through the Holy Spirit.  Your guilty of omission here, bowing is not the only thing said to happen in philippians.   It says bow and confess Jesus as Lord   for the Glory of God the Father.   This is only done through the Holy Spirit.


God is not a monster, but you serve and image of one if you truly believe in your heart that God created a human being and gave him the holy spirit in order to get him to confess Jesus as Lord to his Glory only then to snatch it all away and the human burn in hell.

Nonsense, pure nonsense.   You again prove that you cannot support your doctrine without these games and diversions.

[lee100]

tony,

where in the gospels to Jesus ever say that?

[Paul Hazelwood]

tony,

where in the gospels to Jesus ever say that?

Jesus did not have to say it for it to be something God will do.   Show chapter and verse where in the bible it says that Jesus has to say something in order for it to be something that God will do.

[Molly]

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 5:18,19

That's a very interesting scripture.  All and many are two different Greek words.

First Paul says that all are brought into condemnation [by Adam, ] and all will be offered the free gift [by Jesus].

But the second sentence says that many  [not all] were made sinners and many will be made righteous.

Why does Paul change the subject like that?  Because not all [men] were made sinners, in particular--


Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The universalist says, "There it is!" To this proclamation the traditionalist states, "Hold on - God's will to save all men is not necessarily imposed on everyone." God may desire all men to be saved but that is not the same thing as saying that all men will be saved. The possibility and the actuality are two different things. Who is right?

Isaiah 46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying,  `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'

It is contradiction either way.  If God desires all men to be saved then thats what he will do.

The universalist asks, "Doesn't God's will always get done?" (the verse "His word does not return void to Him" being cited)? Really? Is the record of human history that God's will is always done? If it were, why would Jesus have prayed, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"? Why would he have needed to utter this prayer if a priori God's will is always done and in effect? If God's will is 100% in effect, why would Jesus have differentiated his will from the Father's when he said in Gethsemane, "Not my will but Thine"? Two wills, one deferring to the other. James says that the prayer of a righteous man "availeth much". But if God's will is always done, to what "avail" is the prayer of a righteous man?

What is missing here is the distinction between mans accountability and what is totally up to God for completion.

Certainly if I physically hurt someone out of anger, God did not desire that.   But the choice to NOT hurt someone was mine,  it was not up to God.

Now, Salvation, what MAN can save himself?  Even if you add free will in here and say man must make a choice, that is beside the point, the allowance into the kingdom is not up to man, it is what God does.   God is the only one who can grant or deny salvation for a man so this IS WHAT GOD WILL DO.

So when the bible talks of Gods desires, vs what God desires to do then we have to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the scriptures to know where accountability falls.  

It is Gods responsibility to save a man under any circumstances,  and thats exactly what God desires, so it is exactly what God will do.

[WhiteWings]

If Jesus never said the words that "all men will be saved" then who did in the New Testament?

I assume you already burned the whole OT because none of it comes from the mouth of Jesus...
Do you think Daniel and Isaiah can be trusted?
I'm sure they made many mistakes in their lives. But also concerning spiritual matters?
If you accept their words in the Bible are inspired by HS then their words are to be trusted. Unless of course you assume the HS makes mistakes. Do you accept the OT as a source of spiritual wisdom even if Jesus wasn't teaching at that time?
If yes why you don't trust Paul?
It's your choice. But then be so fair to use a red letter Bible and only quote 'red verses' in your assualt on UR.
IMO it edges toward blasphemy even suggesting the words of Paul are not of the highest level of trustworthyness because it indirectly are the words of HS.

The only verse in the whole New Testament that comes close to the phrase that "all men will be saved"

I like humor. That's why I like you.
Anyway you have a huge problem if that verse really states all are saved. It will clash with your ET theology.
It would mean the HS would have made a huge mistake.....

The universalist says, "There it is!" To this proclamation the traditionalist states, "Hold on - God's will to save all men is not necessarily imposed on everyone."

So you can resist Gods will? In that case the UR heretics possibly can also resist God will to kick them into hell...

God may desire all men to be saved but that is not the same thing as saying that all men will be saved. The possibility and the actuality are two different things. Who is right?

The one who can align that with other verses. (like those in my signature)

The universalist asks, "Doesn't God's will always get done?" (the verse "His word does not return void to Him" being cited)? Really? Is the record of human history that God's will is always done?

When God created according to plan A He was in control for a short while. Things/sin got out control and God had a long deep thought. Then 2000 years ago He send Jesus as a backup plan B to fix things.
Is that what you are suggesting?

If it were, why would Jesus have prayed, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"? Why would he have needed to utter this prayer if a priori God's will is always done and in effect?

Do you think that Gods powers get smaller of bigger because Jesus, you, me, anyone does or does not pray?

If God's will is 100% in effect, why would Jesus have differentiated his will from the Father's when he said in Gethsemane, "Not my will but Thine"? Two wills, one deferring to the other.

And where that verse states the wills are different?
Plus the will of the supreme ruler overrules that of His subjects (in case it's different)

James says that the prayer of a righteous man "availeth much". But if God's will is always done, to what "avail" is the prayer of a righteous man?

Why do the Calvinist elect pray? Study the Bible? Go to church?
They are elected by the supreme will of Father. Do you think praying less of more can change that?

Does the following verse sound as if God's will is inevitable and His commandments inexorable?

What exactly do you think His will is? Have control every second/step of your life? Or on a larger scale full control over the end result?

If all men will be saved, why would Paul have written in 1 Corinthians 9:16:

"For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!"

Why is there the "necessity" for Paul to preach the gospel and "woe" if he does not preach it? If all men are saved...so what if Paul preaches or not? Whether Paul carries out his task or not, the consequences should be the same according to the universalist. Does Paul feel this way?

The answer is a question. Saved from what?

http://www.gtft.org/Library/knoch/ReplyToUniversalismRefuted/refuted1.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm

[HartleyDamboiseII]

People, This is only My thinking.
New Haven and New Earth. i.e. All things, earth/all things made from atoms of God's making, man, plant, rock, air, space, and all other things you can list.

First thing is not to think of Revelation as the last book in the bible, because Cor, goes much further into the future than any book of Revelation.

If you want a comprehensive study in that book, look up J.P. Eby at Sigler Ministries.
Now as to the here and now/ after life.
The promise was that The Anointing would DO certain things, and He Has Done Those Things...

2009 years ago the father raised His Son out of death, and Finished all Death, since then all things have been in life, all made alive in Christ. There is no more sin, the only sin is the sin that you make of your own Law Making and the following of those Laws and the braking of those self-made laws. We are LIVING IN CHRIST'S THOUSAND YEAR REIGNS NOW. It started when death was destroyed 2009 years ago.

Revelation of God ( Matt. 16:18 "upon") is the New System of things, When all things come to an understanding that a higher power controls things, "They" start there own quest to understand.

God is like this to me in the physical things,  in all things there are atoms, in all things there are 2 things, sold and space, but there is an unseen third thing, energy. This energy is in everything. In every corner of the known universe and beyond. This energy is connected like a thought process in a brain. His Brain.

There is a process going on that will bring a close to the reign of Jesus "His" Christ, When all will be IN all. When all things are dragged to the understanding that God IS and God IS Love. Then We will be Home in Him and what goes on after All is, together again is HIS concern. After life? there can never be an afterlife because the use of the word says that life has to end, and life IN God never ends. What God does with His life/us, is His design.

Summery, All sin is ended at the cross, only self-reinforced-delusions i.e.  Law/sin/death.
Everyone will come to love God somehow-somewhere in "time", When time ends, there will only be God/us.

The new heavens and earth is NOW. Since life was given to all things when His Son Did It For Us whether or not we want to except that death was destroyed so long ago.

Lee Damboise II

[Tony N]

tony,

where in the gospels to Jesus ever say that?

That is like asking what all they said in Acts, Hebrews, Revelation and all the other New Testament books was said by Jesus. Gheesh!  :dontknow:

[Cardinal]

tony,

where in the gospels to Jesus ever say that?

That is like asking what all they said in Acts, Hebrews, Revelation and all the other New Testament books was said by Jesus. Gheesh!  :dontknow:

:cloud9: Exactly. Lee, you need to humble yourself and ask the Lord to open your eyes to His Truth. There is NO SHAME in this, we've all had to do it at one time (or several, like me) or another. The shame is in NOT doing this, and missing all God has for you. Blessings.....

[willieH]

Bowing to Jesus does not entail being saved. Where does the word "salvation" occur in that verse? Demons acclaimed Jesus as the son of the highest then went on to mock him. The US "confesses" or professes that China is ruled by the Communist Party - that does not meant that the US agrees with the Communist regime. Bowing and confessing has nothing to do with being saved. In the Middle Ages, peasants bowed to a king they detested and confessed to a priest they disrespected.

Phil 2:11 -- and that EVERY TONGUE should CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST ...is... LORD... to the GLORY of GOD the Father

How pray tell shall they DO this?

1 Cor 12:3 -- no man CAN SAY that JESUS ...IS... LORD... but by the HOLY GHOST...

And what happens then? ...hmmmm:

Rom 10:13 -- for WHOSOEVER shall CALL upon the Name of the LORD, ...SHALL ...BE ...SAVED

Of course YOU number YOURSELF as SAVED, now dontcha there Lee100?  Why does that NOT surprise me? :rolleye:

So, ...HOW, did YOU get "saved" Lee100?  Did you "save yourself"?  Or did GOD save you?  And if GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS, and it is HE which does the "saving"... then He shall (because of that IMPARTIALITY), do for ONE that He was "IMPARTIAL" toward (ones you view as unsaved for instance), ...that which He did for another that He was "IMPARTIAL" toward -- (for YOU for instance)

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[bobf]

The universalist asks, "Doesn't God's will always get done?" (the verse "His word does not return void to Him" being cited)? Really? Is the record of human history that God's will is always done? If it were, why would Jesus have prayed, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"? Why would he have needed to utter this prayer if a priori God's will is always done and in effect? If God's will is 100% in effect, why would Jesus have differentiated his will from the Father's when he said in Gethsemane, "Not my will but Thine"? Two wills, one deferring to the other. James says that the prayer of a righteous man "availeth much". But if God's will is always done, to what "avail" is the prayer of a righteous man?

Why are all the verbs in your argument in the present tense when the scriptures you refer to are in the future tense?

• Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

<br>

• Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'

<br>

• Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

You're right, God's will is not presently being done on earth.  But I think we already knew that all mankind is not presently saved.  Jesus prayed that God's will be done.  God's will is that all mankind be saved.  So why is that you believe God will not answer Christ's prayer?

• Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Am I wrong to pray in accordance with God's desire that all mankind be saved?  Or am I just wrong to believe my prayer when I pray it?

[bobf]

The second most frequently cited verse from Paul in support of universalism is Romans 5:18:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Notice that in verse 18 the word "all" is indeed used. But not in the following verse. Condemnation and the gift of grace came upon ALL men but only MANY shall be made righteous. Why did Paul not use the word ALL in verse 19 following on the heels of the "all" used in verse 18? If ALL exercise the free gift of grace, then why are not ALL made righteous? Could it be that not ALL are saved?

The author of the epistle to the Hebrews (9:28) states, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many."

The sins of many, not all. The pattern is consistent in the New Testament that the gift of grace is offered to ALL but that only MANY are made righteous by the act of Christ (not ALL). See how the word "all" is abused and subtly replaces the word "many" in people's re-interpretations of Scripture.

You assume "many" means "not all" which is untrue.  "Many" means "multitudes" and can refer to either all or fewer than all.

Death passed upon all men yet it says many be dead.
- by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men
- through the offence of one many be dead

All sinned, condemnation came upon all through Adam's sin, yet it says many were made sinners by Adam's sin.
- as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
- Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation
- For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners

Christ gave his life as a ransom for "all" yet the scriptures also says "for many"
- 1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
- Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came... to give his life a ransom for many.

The "as...so" in Romans 5:19 indicates symmetry, not asymmetry.  The "many" on the left side is all mankind made sinners.

[bobf]

Why is there the "necessity" for Paul to preach the gospel and "woe" if he does not preach it? If all men are saved...so what if Paul preaches or not? Whether Paul carries out his task or not, the consequences should be the same according to the universalist. Does Paul feel this way?

Yeah well, for necessity it was laid on Jonah to preach to Nineveh and woe unto him should he choose to run away instead.

[FineLinen]

You assume "many" means "not all" which is untrue.  "Many" means "multitudes" and can refer to either all or fewer than all.

Death passed upon all men yet it says many be dead.
- by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men
- through the offence of one many be dead

All sinned, condemnation came upon all through Adam's sin, yet it says many were made sinners by Adam's sin.
- as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
- Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation
- For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners

Christ gave his life as a ransom for "all" yet the scriptures also says "for many"
- 1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
- Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came... to give his life a ransom for many.

The "as...so" in Romans 5:19 indicates symmetry, not asymmetry.  The "many" on the left side is all mankind made sinners.

Pas>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pas

Polus>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Polus

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=462.0

[FineLinen]

100/37: The same mass of mankind "made sinners", are the mass of mankind made righteous! And, the same all who die in Adam 1 are made alive in the Last Adam!

LINK

The insertion of the definite article, which the Authorized Version unwarrantably leaves out before the word "many" in each case, emphasizes the fact for which it was originally placed there, viz.-- that the company of the righteous is identical in person and number with the company of the sinners to which the passage refers.

[WhiteWings]

The second most frequently cited verse from Paul in support of universalism is Romans 5:18:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Notice that in verse 18 the word "all" is indeed used. But not in the following verse. Condemnation and the gift of grace came upon ALL men but only MANY shall be made righteous. Why did Paul not use the word ALL in verse 19 following on the heels of the "all" used in verse 18? If ALL exercise the free gift of grace, then why are not ALL made righteous? Could it be that not ALL are saved?

Selective reading Lee100

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 

All recieve judgement. All recieve the gift.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Many where made sinners. Many made righteous.

I agree that manys in 5:19 doesn't strickly needs to be the exact same amount. But it neither does it say it are different amounts. According to you many-100% are made sinners but many-5% are made righteous.
Surely you can call 1 billion many and also call 50 miljon many. Isn't it the most obvious that when the same words are used in the same verse those words mean the same amounts?

Obviously 5:19 is just rephrasing 5:18.
You wrote

Notice that in verse 18 the word "all" is indeed used.

If all recieved the gift in 5:18 wouldn't it be odd that the same gift is taken away from 95% in 5:19?
The gift IS life. Not a lottery ticket that gives you a 5% winning chance.

[lee100]

ww,

meditate on my Romans 5:18-19 thread until the lightbulb turns on.

[WhiteWings]

The light turned on long before you joined.
Actually it is a floodlight unlike the bicycle light bulb of your satanic doctrine.

Lee100, your many veils will not be able to darking this place.
On the contrary the burning of them will give greater light.
And then you will see the light in your heart instead of ice.

Look Lee100! There in the distance. The shepherd is looking for you :winkgrin:

[willieH]

willieH:  Lee100...

I noticed that YOU IGNORED this: 

So, ...HOW, did YOU get "saved" Lee100?  Did you "save yourself"?  Or did GOD save you?  And if GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS, and it is HE which does the "saving"... then He shall (because of that IMPARTIALITY), do for ONE that He was "IMPARTIAL" toward (ones you view as unsaved for instance), ...that which He did for another that He was "IMPARTIAL" toward -- (for YOU for instance)

Does it mean you HAVE NO ANSWER for it?  :dontknow:

Did YOU save YOURSELF?

AND, ...if GOD is "picking this one, and that one"... what of the 10 verses which are plainly stated that He claims to be IMPARTIAL?  Here they are, just in case you don't know of their locations:  Acts 10:34 -- Rom 2:11 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- Job 34:19 -- Prov 28:21 -- Mark 12:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Col 3:25 -- 2 Sam 14:14 --

And furthermore, commands to ABSTAIN from PARTIALITY as followers: Deut 16:19 -- James 2:1 

Matter of fact PARTIALITY is named in the WORD (you should "read it sometime"),  ...as a SIN -- James 2:9 -- So, ...if in fact GOD were to be "PARTIAL" (as YOU CLAIM He is -- in Saving one and NOT the other), then He SINS in doing so!  :thumbdown:

:OhNo:  "CHEW" on that for a while Lee100!  :violin:

...willieH  :HeartThrob: