more from my worship leader

[NinjaWizards777]

You all remember my worship leader, who I talked to at burger king and gave him a hope beyond hell book? well in the many weeks since then hes been on sortof a warpath of "love" to get me to believe in eternal hell again. Recently he sent me some pages out of a book (I think it was called the reason for God) and so I sent him my thoughts on it after reading, which were paragraphs upon paragraphs complete with bible verses where necessarily. And as usual, he picked about 2 points and ignored all the rest as if I never said them...


Only our infinite omnipotent God has the righteousness to set the punishment for sin against him. No one else. Rejecting eternal punishment shouldn't have anything to do with whether its illogical or saying that no loving father would ever do that to his child. Its a matter of whether or not he has created a justice system that necessitates a certain type of punishment to those that do not obey his commands. Because he is the one who has been sinned against, and is omni and sovereign, he has the right to set up a system of how and if we will reconciled to him. This topic isn't about what we would do, its only about His choices. He is righteousness and truth and whatever he chooses will bring him ultimate honor and glory.

I dont even know what to say to that...like Im so tired of him trying to convince me at this point, I just dont feel like spilling my thoughts out and looking up scripture to hear the same tired old arguments that I hear everyday. and more insulting yet is he just ignores most of what I say, particularly the bible verses I bring up. At the same time I feel like saying something in reply, but I dont really know.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: A long time ago, God told me to share what He gave me and to not "look at their faces" (reactions of natures) afterwards, but to share and walk on, so as not to walk by sight.

No farmer plants a seed and then stands there and stares at it until it begins to grow, but continues planting more seed, and then when his work is done, he rests and waits on the rain to bring forth the harvest. He is confident that the rain will come in due season and raise up the grain into a harvest. That is a simple measure of faith.

So plant the seed, and if need be, walk on. The harvest will come in due season, as if the natural brings forth a harvest, how much more the Word of God? Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

Perhaps it's your season to spend time alone with the Lord.
Break any chains that seek to bind you.
You are free!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWv-UOHzaIc

[Beloved Servant]

Amazing Card! Similar message, different facet, at the same moment!
God is Great!

[NinjaWizards777]

I know but its frustrating

if someone doesnt agree, thats fine, but at least dont ignore what I said as if I never said it...thats so...ugh

[Beloved Servant]

Really, man, it's not our battle — let it go!
Press on into Christ. Follow on to know the Lord!
Just YOU and HIM.

[NinjaWizards777]

why do you act like everything in the world is so easy?


I really dont appreciate that

[onlytruth]

Hi Ninja...I know what your saying,I have many close friends in bondage to "hell" as well.I would love for them to be free but in turn they scorn everything you give them in love.
Sunday I had three different people tell me...YOU BETTER BE IN A CHURCH OR ELSE GREAT DECEPTION WILL COME UPON YOU!....I try to explain and love on them, but they end up saying they will pray for me?!
All these people were once close, and we joked together,camped together,prayed together and now scorn...its not easy, and it definetly becomes a lonely road
But I do hope, you get encouragement here....cause I know I do!
blessings :icon_king:

[Beloved Servant]

No, dear brother, following the Lord is not easy but it is ecstasy, and requires giving up everything that you hold dear.
All hopes, dreams, plans for the future are to be given into His hands.
We are to live in His now, day-by-day, never worrying about the future.

[sparrow]

When someone is seeking... their eyes are open, and most importantly their heart is open.
This person seems to have neither open. Not much you can do about that.
Everyone will come to the knowledge of truth in their own time.
Perhaps it isn't his time.

If his beliefs don't bother his heart.... than God is the one who has to bring Him to a place where His heart finally becomes troubled over what he believes. Where God can soften His heart. I'm not sure we can help bring people to that place, y'know? We can meet them there when they get there and feed them with the food God has given us... But until they "go there"... it's like trying to force feed a baby who has his mouth clamped shut. Nothings going in and things are just kinda getting messy and frustrating.

I think maybe you should just end it on a peaceful note and go on your way.
I don't know. That's just my opinion.

Sorry, I hope I didn't just make it worse.

peace to ya friend...

[Raggedy Anne]

Ninja,

I think you've been given good advice from those who posted here.  I'm surprised that you responded with frustration.   You do know that it is God who opens eyes and minds and hearts.  We plant seeds and water.  He gives the increase whenever he will.   To remain frustrated is like saying you do not understand this process.

My two cents -
Anne

[WhiteWings]

Anne, Cardinal,

How can you know you planted enough seeds? Or gave the seeds enough water?
Some plants need a lot of water.
Jesus was a teacher. For me the defention of a teacher isn't shootinga few facts and then quickly travel to another town. :msealed:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: ONE plants, ANOTHER waters, but GOD gives the increase. You will know by feeling you have gone from planting and into strife. Blessings....

[Seth]

Only our infinite omnipotent God has the righteousness to set the punishment for sin against him. No one else. Rejecting eternal punishment shouldn't have anything to do with whether its illogical or saying that no loving father would ever do that to his child. Its a matter of whether or not he has created a justice system that necessitates a certain type of punishment to those that do not obey his commands. Because he is the one who has been sinned against, and is omni and sovereign, he has the right to set up a system of how and if we will reconciled to him. This topic isn't about what we would do, its only about His choices. He is righteousness and truth and whatever he chooses will bring him ultimate honor and glory.

Shocker: I actually agree with that bolded part. I used to make the argument about what a loving father would do and how infinite punishment doesn't make logical sense. But sooner or later, I decided to stop doing that. Now I just make the argument from scripture.

I reject eternal punishment because the Bible doesn't teach it, and I try to leave my own opinions about what is logical or what a loving God would do out of the question. If I do that, then they don't disagree with me, they disagree with the Bible, and then they will twist the scriptures rather than challenge my personal reasoning.

[NinjaWizards777]

I think its a good point to bring up...because if God is love, and yet hes not more loving than a human father...then that means humans have greater love than God, which simply cant be so.

if God doesnt limit himself to the planes of logic and morality that he instilled us with, then we honestly have no hope of relating or trying to obey such a God.

[Seth]

I think its a good point to bring up...because if God is love, and yet hes not more loving than a human father...then that means humans have greater love than God, which simply cant be so.

if God doesnt limit himself to the planes of logic and morality that he instilled us with, then we honestly have no hope of relating or trying to obey such a God.

Generally, if I talk about universal salvation in terms of love, I relate it to what the Bible says about love, and to show how Christ was the revelation of love not known when he was veiled in the OT. As far as the logic thing goes, I have found it better to rely on the logic that God presents in the scripture, by combining scripture with scripture.

Example:

Paul says that we should pray for all men because God "will have all to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth."
God through Isaiah said "I shall do all my pleasure."

Scriptural logic therefore states that if God wants all men to be saved, and he shall do all his pleasure, it is a denial of scripture to say that either he does not want all to be saved, or that he will choose not to have all saved.

In that way, the logic does not depend on me, but on what is written.

[WhiteWings]

I think its a good point to bring up...because if God is love, and yet hes not more loving than a human father...then that means humans have greater love than God, which simply cant be so.

That point won't have you I think.
God is also infinitly just. And that means He must punish. And because it was a sin against a infinite God the punishement can only be eternal hell.
Of course we both know the above is nonsense because sinners even beg to go to hell...

[NinjaWizards777]

In that way, the logic does not depend on me, but on what is written.

but like someone said above, then youre just accused of twisting scripture/taking things out of context. even if context to them is ridiculous tautology like "Jesus is the savior of [believing] men, but [EXCLUSIVELY] those who believe" >_>

So to my mind, scriptural or not people will turn it back on you, unless they are honestly willing to listen and they are in a position to think beyond the pat answers they've been preprogrammed with their [many times] entire lives. And though most will disagree, I think there is alot to be said and observed about life outside the scriptures. They are, and probably should be, the backbone of my understanding about things, but was the bible ever meant to be a set of blinders by which anything I could think of believe couldnt exceed or contribute to my understandings? Like I honestly cant say so. But again, thats just my thoughts

people say the bible is the manual to life but a product manual will only get you so far in using any product/software Ive ever used.

[Doc]

In that way, the logic does not depend on me, but on what is written.

but like someone said above, then youre just accused of twisting scripture/taking things out of context. even if context to them is ridiculous tautology like "Jesus is the savior of [believing] men, but [EXCLUSIVELY] those who believe" >_>

So to my mind, scriptural or not people will turn it back on you, unless they are honestly willing to listen and they are in a position to think beyond the pat answers they've been preprogrammed with their [many times] entire lives. And though most will disagree, I think there is alot to be said and observed about life outside the scriptures. They are, and probably should be, the backbone of my understanding about things, but was the bible ever meant to be a set of blinders by which anything I could think of believe couldnt exceed or contribute to my understandings? Like I honestly cant say so. But again, thats just my thoughts

people say the bible is the manual to life but a product manual will only get you so far in using any product/software Ive ever used.

That's because the scripture only points to Christ, it's not Christ.

I totally understand your frustration, but we are instructed not to tire of doing good. It's frustrating to me too, and it does wear me down; don't get me wrong.
Jesus guarantees that we will be persecuted for representing the truth; it's just that most of us never expected when we "signed up" for this, that it would be from our own brothers and sisters in Him.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Exactly Doc........I always say I didn't sign up for this 'army', I was drafted....... :laughing7:  Blessings....

BTW: did you happen to read my other prayer thread? Right knee meniscus snapped one week after other one was healed enough to walk on without pain.  :sigh:

[Seth]

In that way, the logic does not depend on me, but on what is written.

but like someone said above, then youre just accused of twisting scripture/taking things out of context. even if context to them is ridiculous tautology like "Jesus is the savior of [believing] men, but [EXCLUSIVELY] those who believe" >_>

So to my mind, scriptural or not people will turn it back on you, unless they are honestly willing to listen and they are in a position to think beyond the pat answers they've been preprogrammed with their [many times] entire lives. And though most will disagree, I think there is alot to be said and observed about life outside the scriptures. They are, and probably should be, the backbone of my understanding about things, but was the bible ever meant to be a set of blinders by which anything I could think of believe couldnt exceed or contribute to my understandings? Like I honestly cant say so. But again, thats just my thoughts

people say the bible is the manual to life but a product manual will only get you so far in using any product/software Ive ever used.

I totally agree that people will turn it back on you and and will not be willing to listen. Which is why a conversation is necessary up to a point.

But the difference is, they will be twisting the scriptures, rather than challenging a personal view. If I say "a loving God wouldn't send people to eternal hell" apart from the scripture, then my reasoning is dependent on my view of what a loving God would or would not do. It looks like I am setting my own opinion (of what a loving father should do) to be the determination of what God should do rather than letting HIM tell ME what He will or will not do. In other words, it makes it look like I am telling God what he is supposed to do rather than the other way around. So then you always get the response "you are forcing God into your own version of love etc" which is a response I used to get.

But a strict appeal to the scripture to reveal universal salvation reverses the order so that you are in affect saying "I believe universal salvation because God says so."

[Doc]

:cloud9: Exactly Doc........I always say I didn't sign up for this 'army', I was drafted....... :laughing7:  Blessings....

BTW: did you happen to read my other prayer thread? Right knee meniscus snapped one week after other one was healed enough to walk on without pain.  :sigh:

No, I didn't see that. Sorry... What part of the country are you in? I think you may need to get yourself to a good chiropractor, because it sounds to me like you are having some body mechanics issues that are causing excessive wear and tear on your joints. I don't think you're near me, but I may be able to find someone good in your area, although depending on where you are, you might have to travel a way to get the appropriate doctor.

Blessings.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I dont even know what to say to that...like Im so tired of him trying to convince me at this point, I just dont feel like spilling my thoughts out and looking up scripture to hear the same tired old arguments that I hear everyday. and more insulting yet is he just ignores most of what I say, particularly the bible verses I bring up. At the same time I feel like saying something in reply, but I dont really know.

It is ok to tell someone to leave you alone and if they do not then it is harassment and go to the church leaders about it.  You have the right to have a belief and not be harassed about it.

[preistsplace]

:cloud9: A long time ago, God told me to share what He gave me and to not "look at their faces" (reactions of natures) afterwards, but to share and walk on, so as not to walk by sight.

No farmer plants a seed and then stands there and stares at it until it begins to grow, but continues planting more seed, and then when his work is done, he rests and waits on the rain to bring forth the harvest. He is confident that the rain will come in due season and raise up the grain into a harvest. That is a simple measure of faith.

So plant the seed, and if need be, walk on. The harvest will come in due season, as if the natural brings forth a harvest, how much more the Word of God? Blessings....

exactly plant the seed and keep planting in God's due time the rain of the Spirit will come.

[preistsplace]

I think its a good point to bring up...because if God is love, and yet hes not more loving than a human father...then that means humans have greater love than God, which simply cant be so.

That point won't have you I think.
God is also infinitly just. And that means He must punish. And because it was a sin against a infinite God the punishement can only be eternal hell.
Of course we both know the above is nonsense because sinners even beg to go to hell...

two for smoking?... :laughing7:lol