preparing for the compromise

[anti_nietzsche]

Hi there,

I hope I won't appear as if I'm trolling or such, because when I come here I guess I usually write contradictory messages.

But I'm trying to gather what I believe in, and it's not coming out in favor of UR yet. From what you write it seems that you can support for what you write about from the bible. And what I can agree on is that there are passages in the bible which speak in favor of UR. But, to remain intellectually honest, there are portions of the bible that disagree with UR.

I don't have a great fear of hell and eternal torment about myself and my own fate. Perhaps I should have, but mostly I don't. It seems to be a mistake to think of hell too much, time we could spend better with Jesus or with something else that is fruitful.

I've never been to a divine service that threatened people with hell. The closest I came to was hearing a preacher who remarked that those who don't choose Jesus will find out what hell is about in the truth, personally. And I guess that is something most UR christians could sign too.

If I am not mistaken UR also teaches that there are penalties for rejecting Jesus. Only that these penalties are not eternal.

Well, it seems to me that the orthodox, ie the usual answer for dealing with the fear of hell is to gain Jesus Christ. Martin Luther has gone this route and in faith found a gracious and merciful Father. Shouldn't this do away with the fear of hell that so many people have?

I think the real problem we have, and I say we have because this is not limited to UR people, many ET people have it too, is that we have a concern for our neighbor whom we do not want to see in hell. I think there is a special kind of fear in all of this, a fear that some of us cannot handle at all. And this should not be. This fear must be addressed, it's not ok that a human, a child of God, spends his life in such a terror. I guess Jesus cringes when He thinks of that, that someone who believes in Him and His salvation, suffers such fear and torment. But perhaps some of this fear also is natural, for as long as caring about our neighbor is part of what we ought to do.

I guess some people react to the possibility of ET with sadness, others with fear. Others simply have a gut reaction that says these people should have more Christ.

What I must say here at this point is that I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe that God creates people with the purpose of torturing them in hell. When Jesus tells us that with God everything is possible, this does not mean that every kind of injustice or evil is possible. He is trying to encourage us.

I believe in salvation being something synergistic. I mean salvation as in working out your salvation on Earth. You definetly have to do your share, go to church, pray, receive the Eucharist, read the bible, love other christians and everyone else, etc. Calvinism seriously is wrong there. Like a Father, God is happy when we do something right. Because Jesus is a member of the trinity, we have good reason to believe that there even is humility in God. God is not vain.

We thank God because He has given us this life. He wants us to be alive. Thankfulness is more than just knowing exactly about a particular matter that it is God's gift. It's madness to try to see how all things connect and what is a true gift of God and what has just come about through man or such. In the truth, thankfulness is our weapon against pride. I have to admit, I'm not always thankful when I should be, sometimes my heart is dreadfully silent. I have much to learn and I have to grow too.

But I was speaking about UR and ET. Well, the thing is, if you read the bible, you find God being gracious and you find Him being hostile. If we want to remain honest, there cannot be any denying of that. Yet we also hear apostle John write that God is love. Now what is love?

I propose there are two variants of love which are of concern here.

1) To want the best for others.

2) To give yourself to others.

While 2) would include 1), there can be 1) without 2), when you define "the best" as excluding yourself.

Now I think in the cross it is apparent that God gives us Himself. He does not save us from a fire, put us on a distant planet, sends us a buttload of gifts and then leaves us alone. That is not christian salvation. Christian salvation has God wanting to stay with us. And this is what should steer us away from the fear of Eternal Torment. That's the stuff of coming into the arms of God that many christians speak about.

And I think it's maturity to accept that.

I've read somewhere once that humility means to accept God's benefactions in our lives, and to prosper from receiving them. It doesn't mean to believe that everyone is saved. To enforce UR as the only scriptural truth isn't right.

One thing that helped me with accepting the truth a little easier, was to see that God knows pain. In a way, the cross is a symbol of what God is going through all the time. It hurts Him to see people violate His commandments. It's like the jealousy of a betrayed lover, it's agony to endure. Now you might want to downplay this, but then you get in touch with God's wrath - should creations of God deny Him? Should they deny the one that gave them life?

God's wrath scares me still. I believe I am no more receiving any of it. I have been the recipient of God's anger only once, and I can testify that it only lasted for a second. I was receiving disappointment and God being upset with me. Now God is not a daisy on the field. God is not a teddybear. God is vast, majestic, almighty, omniscient. And when this big mountain gets angry, that's not a nice experience. He only said this to me: "Should you not honor the One who gave you your life?"

That's really a big gift of God, our life. It's something nobody can deny that we have been given it. Some might argue, it's not a good life, some might say, it's just crap, but I challenge that this is true. Life is a fundamentally good thing. I've been in great pains in my life too, and still I wanted to life, and even when I tried to kill myself some years back, I was not really opposed to living. I know a guy who was, and God saved Him too.

(His testimony is here .. it's really cool: http://advoir.livejournal.com/5550.html#cutid1 )

So I'm here not to thrash UR ... I understand the need many feel for it. But I doubt that it is the truth, honestly.