The possible benefit from 23 mins in hell etc.

[MacPherson]

In listening on Christian radio to people asking about books like "23 minutes in hell" and other books by people who claim they've been given a vision of hell. It seems to be pointing out how ludicrous any such concept is in the first place. I'm tempted to write one. I did used to read a lot of Stephen King after all. The flames, the demons with whips, the worms crawling in and out of me - and Jesus saying "hey this is how you wanted to spend eternity".

[Seth]

Yeah, it occurred to me too, that such "visions" literalize the other Jesus and show how he would have to be in a situation like that. It is an unwitting self-critique on the false idea of Christ that they have. Also, every time a movie about "hell" comes out, like the recent Drag Me To Hell, I smile because I see it as a prank pulled on the very concept. It's like a parody.

[Tim B]

Yeah, I was reading a bit of that book, 23 Minutes in Hell, at one of my friend's house, and let me say: it = GARBAGE. Honestly, it was sooo exceedingly stupid. Apparently the man was in some sort of dungeon and these creatures attacked him and gouged out a part of his chest, but he didn't die and he could feel intense pain. Also, it smelled of rotten trash and horrid smells, and he could hear the terrible screams of the damned. (There was more to the story, but that's about what I read.) It was so lame. I'm thinkin': and God would really think this is just punishment for sins? Seriously. It's absolutely outrageous.

It also casts a horrible light on Jesus. Could you imagine any sane, caring person looking upon the horrible atrocities being inflicted on these people in "Hell" and not having compassion to set them free? Certainly that cannot be the true image of a true son of an all loving and all good God. Maybe the son of a monster. But certainly not an all loving God.

[Shadow]

Yeah, I was reading a bit of that book, 23 Minutes in Hell, at one of my friend's house, and let me say: it = GARBAGE. Honestly, it was sooo exceedingly stupid. Apparently the man was in some sort of dungeon and these creatures attacked him and gouged out a part of his chest, but he didn't die and he could feel intense pain. Also, it smelled of rotten trash and horrid smells, and he could hear the terrible screams of the damned. (There was more to the story, but that's about what I read.) It was so lame. I'm thinkin': and God would really think this is just punishment for sins? Seriously. It's absolutely outrageous.

It also casts a horrible light on Jesus. Could you imagine any sane, caring person looking upon the horrible atrocities being inflicted on these people in "Hell" and not having compassion to set them free? Certainly that cannot be the true image of a true son of an all loving and all good God. Maybe the son of a monster. But certainly not an all loving God.

I couldn't agree more, my husband had downloaded a youtube clip at the beginning of last year, and I really freaked out as I didn't even know that there was such a things as UR, or even annihilation, the churches are masterminds at covering these things up and trying to make a vile, unspeakable thing appear not so bad :thumbdown:, I soon discovered when I went for counseling that churches are based on a foundation of pure dishonesty and shameless lies, imagine how I felt when I was worried about the fate of unbelievers and asked about the predestination thing only to be told that the only reason they preach the gospel is because they don't know who God has chosen before the dawn of time :mshock:

This kind of thing just raises more questions like

If God is all good, all knowing and all powerful, Why would he place somebody in a position to even be in such a predicament in the first place, surely being all knowing he would have foreseen it, but let it happen anyway

The good thing about it is that it causes you to question what you've been told, and the quick fixes to bring you back in line just don't work anymore

[WhiteWings]

Yeah, I was reading a bit of that book, 23 Minutes in Hell, at one of my friend's house, and let me say: it = GARBAGE. Honestly, it was sooo exceedingly stupid.

For you perhaps....
But many see it as a confirmation of the fire and brimstone sermons.
Or people that only set a few steps on the 'religious path'

[Tim B]

Yeah, I was reading a bit of that book, 23 Minutes in Hell, at one of my friend's house, and let me say: it = GARBAGE. Honestly, it was sooo exceedingly stupid.

For you perhaps....
But many see it as a confirmation of the fire and brimstone sermons.
Or people that only set a few steps on the 'religious path'

This wouldn't make it any less stupid. Only more unfortunate that these poor souls believe such horror stories.  :sigh:

[WhiteWings]

Agreed.

It almost looks like some conspiracy.
Surely there are many ET leaders who can read and understand ancient texts.
But still they teach the same old stuff.

[Tim B]

Agreed.

It almost looks like some conspiracy.
Surely there are many ET leaders who can read and understand ancient texts.
But still they teach the same old stuff.

I bet they can too. They're probably just too lazy, or trust that others who have already read the ancient texts know what they're talking about. However, you'd think, that if anybody really dug into the ancient texts they'd realize that the idea of a place of eternal torment is bogus. The very fact that there is no Jewish concept of a place of eternal torment in the Old Testament should be enough evidence to show that Jesus wouldn't have had such a concept in mind when he spoke of Hades or Gehenna. Then there's Origen who, through his studies, discovered that Gehenna was thought to consist of a purifying fire. Studies are useful!  :thumbsup:

[preistsplace]

sure there are those that can read it but by being predisposed to ET they would have to be able tooverlooktheir own bias,and that almost always requires a pardigm shift of some sort. Realizing you do not have it all figured out is a very frigtening situation.

[Beloved Servant]

Realizing you do not have it all figured out is a very frightening situation.

This is where God wants us.
In a state of continuance of:


Faith Trust Obedience

[preistsplace]

Realizing you do not have it all figured out is a very frightening situation.

This is where God wants us.
In a state of continuance.

we are verymuch in agreement there :happygrin:
we must always be prepared to lose our preconcieved notions of truth so that we can readily accept Truth as it reveals itself to us through the Holy Spirit.
Blessings in Christ

[MacPherson]

Yeah, it occurred to me too, that such "visions" literalize the other Jesus and show how he would have to be in a situation like that. It is an unwitting self-critique on the false idea of Christ that they have. Also, every time a movie about "hell" comes out, like the recent Drag Me To Hell, I smile because I see it as a prank pulled on the very concept. It's like a parody.

I was just thinking of imagoes heaven that have people with wings and halos lounging on clouds playing harps.
I'm sure one is just as inaccurate and dreamed up by human concept as the other.

[MacPherson]

Agreed.

It almost looks like some conspiracy.
Surely there are many ET leaders who can read and understand ancient texts.
But still they teach the same old stuff.

Most of them have to if they want to keep their job.

[MacPherson]

Agreed.

It almost looks like some conspiracy.
Surely there are many ET leaders who can read and understand ancient texts.
But still they teach the same old stuff.

I bet they can too. They're probably just too lazy, or trust that others who have already read the ancient texts know what they're talking about. However, you'd think, that if anybody really dug into the ancient texts they'd realize that the idea of a place of eternal torment is bogus. The very fact that there is no Jewish concept of a place of eternal torment in the Old Testament should be enough evidence to show that Jesus wouldn't have had such a concept in mind when he spoke of Hades or Gehenna. Then there's Origen who, through his studies, discovered that Gehenna was thought to consist of a purifying fire. Studies are useful!  :thumbsup:

This is the Jewish concept I found. I like it.

Hell is temporary -- not permanent.

Hell is a therapy -- not an imprisonment.

Hell is a consequence -- not a punishment.

Hell is a washing machine -- not a furnace.

Sounds interesting? Click here to read all about this topic.

Let me know if this helps. I await your reply.

Yours truly,

Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/516993/jewish/Im-scared-of-going-to-hell..htm

[WhiteWings]

Let me know if this helps. I await your reply.

I general I want to say 'we' should take a closer look to the wisdom of the Jews. They where studying the word of God when we were worshipping a tree-god

[martincisneros]

:egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: TREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :boogie: :boydance:

[WhiteWings]

Timber!!!!!!!!!!  :winkgrin:

Our God is a tree God.
He planted the tree of life :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

Let me know if this helps. I await your reply.

I general I want to say 'we' should take a closer look to the wisdom of the Jews. They where studying the word of God when we were worshipping a tree-god

:cloud9: Amen WW........been saying that for years........well minus the 'tree-God' comment, anyway...... :laughing7: Blessings....

[Tim B]

Agreed.

It almost looks like some conspiracy.
Surely there are many ET leaders who can read and understand ancient texts.
But still they teach the same old stuff.

I bet they can too. They're probably just too lazy, or trust that others who have already read the ancient texts know what they're talking about. However, you'd think, that if anybody really dug into the ancient texts they'd realize that the idea of a place of eternal torment is bogus. The very fact that there is no Jewish concept of a place of eternal torment in the Old Testament should be enough evidence to show that Jesus wouldn't have had such a concept in mind when he spoke of Hades or Gehenna. Then there's Origen who, through his studies, discovered that Gehenna was thought to consist of a purifying fire. Studies are useful!  :thumbsup:

This is the Jewish concept I found. I like it.

Hell is temporary -- not permanent.

Hell is a therapy -- not an imprisonment.

Hell is a consequence -- not a punishment.

Hell is a washing machine -- not a furnace.

Sounds interesting? Click here to read all about this topic.

Let me know if this helps. I await your reply.

Yours truly,

Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/516993/jewish/Im-scared-of-going-to-hell..htm

That was very interesting. It'd be interesting to see what else the Jews thought of Hell/Gehenna. I'd like to study it!  :bigGrin:

Thank you sir, for the read!

[Gilbert]

In listening on Christian radio to people asking about books like "23 minutes in hell" and other books by people who claim they've been given a vision of hell. It seems to be pointing out how ludicrous any such concept is in the first place. I'm tempted to write one. I did used to read a lot of Stephen King after all. The flames, the demons with whips, the worms crawling in and out of me - and Jesus saying "hey this is how you wanted to spend eternity".

People who become preoccupied with Bible passages to foster a tyranny of fear and loathing seem to be shouting from everywhere these days.

The Bible merely addresses the principle of employment, wages and (ultimately) ownership.
Those who choose light over darkness and serve God are rewarded with peace, joy and righteousness; and those who choose darkness rather than light remain employed by the devil are paid the wages of sin and death.
We are all justly paid by the one whom we serve.
We are also owned by the one whom we chose to be our employer.
Jesus cannot pay wages to those not employed by Him; nor would He remain eternally just if He stole the property belonging to the devil or used some form of fraud or trickery to take what does not belong to Him. Just as Jesus is justly gathering those who belong to Him, so too the devil is gathering those who belong to him too.
It's only when you approach the issue from the perspective of employment, wages and ownership that all this nonsense about eternal damnation can be properly refuted.
The message of Salvation deals first with the wages being no longer owed to us and ending with a ransom being paid to effect a change of ownership.
If we had those fundamentals understood, we wouldn't be finding ourselves so argumentative with those who might misunderstand us.

Oh, and please spare me the theology of the Jewish Rabbi. I only consult Rabbis and other similar quaints when the Holy Spirit fails in its minisry of teaching me.

[Cardinal]

Oh, and please spare me the theology of the Jewish Rabbi. I only consult Rabbis and other similar quaints when the Holy Spirit fails in its minisry of teaching me.

:cloud9: Well ya know Gilbert.........not all who wander are lost (thank you Byron; I now have a new favorite phrase).........some get led to other pastures to feed among the lilies. Blessings....