Suicide

[fullarmor2]

    I  recently  heard an accusation by someone  in the process of defending eternal torment,   they said that universalist teaching makes it easier for people with suicidal tendencies,   to go through with it.  Because they will not worry as much, if at all, about eternal torment.   What do you think? 

[martincisneros]

Eternal Torment is one heck of a doctrine to base this life upon, eh?  A really orgasmic reason for living!!  Eternal Torment is definitely better than sex and chocolate, and more of a motivation for life and living than Jesus Christ, eh??  Before I was in UR, I sure as heck was very evangelistic in the behalf of Eternal Torment.  Made me lead multitudes to Eternal Torment as food for their souls, healing for their bodies, clarity for their minds and thinking, and absolute proof of God's heart ravishing love for them, their loved ones, their neighbors, their coworkers, and it really brought out His intimate provision for each and every single need.  Eternal Torment always made me as holy as the Pharisees that used to believe in it 2000 years ago, and it made me as full of the Holy Spirit as all of the Pharisees that Jesus was dealing with prior to His crucifixion! 

Eternal Torment really taught me holiness and worship, and thanks be to God for God's indescribable gift of Eternal Torment that far surpassed the sufficiency of the Cross lest I should ever get the wrong idea that the Blood of Christ really did anything for anyone.  If it weren't for Eternal Torment, the Blood of Christ would be a total failure!!  If it weren't for Eternal Torment, husbands wouldn't know how to love their wives as Christ loves the Church.  If it weren't for Eternal Torment, God would have never had eternal glory before and after the world and all of the way in between because Eternal Torment is His highest achievement and the secret to His power, and the surpassing depth of His love, according to Tertullian, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, and countless other eye-witnesses to His excellent majesty revealed on the Mt of Transfiguration that boiled up out of the pit of Hell and surrounded them with the clouds of God's torment that shall ascend forever and ever and ever as the saints and angels praise God for His indescribable damnation and surpassing wisdom in Endless Ever-Expanding Agony and Ruthlessness as He proves the depths of the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towards us by Eternal Torment, for by Eternal Torment are you saved and that not of yourself, but of course of your neighbors that wouldn't obey the interpretations/practices of your Church 'cause Eternal Torment alone is worthy of honor, and glory, and majesty and of the end of His Torment there shall be no end!!!

[fullarmor2]

I've got to get the person to read that!  You definitely drove home some points  there.

[fullarmor2]

   I think trying to scare people out of doing something bad with et is wrong.  For example,  if you saw your neighbor's child outside your house, about to do something wrong,   would you go over and lie and say "I'm telling your parents if you do that that, and they are going to kill you for real"!      Of coarse not!    Thats ridiculous.    You would intervene appropriately and perhaps warn the child about punishment by the parents.   
     And further more,   if an et defender,  by this accusation,  is trying to say that someone being dealt with in a loving way,   is more likely to rebel or to make a bad decision,      well that may be true but that does NOT justify,  using   sadistic evil methods with people just because it will cause them to be more likely to behave themselves!   
It is easier for someone to commit suicide since God Is a loving God.   But love is still RIGHT. 

[sven]

the bible is pretty silent on the subject of suicide, it mentions two suicides in the OT without any comment, and of course Judas.

to teach everlasting torment to prevent people from suicide is the same reason as to teach everlasting torment to prevent people from committing any other sin, had it worked in the past? - I suppose not, think only about the middle ages and Catholicism

in fact this doctrine was responsible for many suicides, for child killings, that they might not go to hell...

btw concerning suicide, I would consider annihilationism more dangerous than universalism, universalism teaches at least consequences in the "afterlife", annihilationism basically not.

[WhiteWings]

had it worked in the past? - I suppose not, think only about the middle ages and Catholicism

I think it's the opposite. It drives people to suicide.
First they are scared. Then very scared. Extremely scared. Then something snaps in their head. When that has happend there are no rational decisions to stop people from suicide.
Add to that the teaching that greater/more sins are punished with a hotter hell. Lesser sins get 'only' purgatory according to RCC. Then it's easy in a 'snapped mind' to step out of this life to stop adding to your sins.

[WhiteWings]

btw concerning suicide, I would consider annihilationism more dangerous than universalism, universalism teaches at least consequences in the "afterlife", annihilationism basically not.

annihilationism has almost the same outcome as atheism.
For athesists there is no afterlife. For those to be annihilated a very brief one (judgement).
Without proper stats we can only guess....

[Shadow]

the bible is pretty silent on the subject of suicide, it mentions two suicides in the OT without any comment, and of course Judas.

to teach everlasting torment to prevent people from suicide is the same reason as to teach everlasting torment to prevent people from committing any other sin, had it worked in the past? - I suppose not, think only about the middle ages and Catholicism

in fact this doctrine was responsible for many suicides, for child killings, that they might not go to hell...

btw concerning suicide, I would consider annihilationism more dangerous than universalism, universalism teaches at least consequences in the "afterlife", annihilationism basically not.

Not necessarily, I think that basically the main difference between UR and ED, is that ED (annihilation) teaches that you suffer punishment then you cease to exist altogether, whereas with UR you get the same punishment then instead of ceasing to exist, you are then restored once the punishment has been meted out according to your deeds

[sven]

Add to that the teaching that greater/more sins are punished with a hotter hell. Lesser sins get 'only' purgatory according to RCC. Then it's easy in a 'snapped mind' to step out of this life to stop adding to your sins.

this is what actually happened in the middle ages as I read, some monks even baptized new born childs and then chrashed their heads on rocks that they enter heaven, I came across that recently, ET is rationally and morally indefensible.

[firstborn888]

Of course I HATE the false doctrine of eternal torment but no doubt it has prevented some suicides along the way. My wife is one who was taught growing up that she would lose her salvation and go to hell if she killed herself, so when she was sorely tempted as a teen to commit suicide it was a strong deterrent. Yet it (obviously) has failed to prevent suicides as well.

I'm a firm believer that love is the STRONGEST of deterrents to harmful actions (which suicide is in most cases). In my case (believing in no afterlife punishment per-se) a long battle with severe illness under which I lived with a constant shortage of breath and couldn't sleep well for several years - I cracked at various times and in the last major 'crack' I left a suicide note and drove my car to a small body of water (my trach tube would help in a quick drowning). My life insurance (I was told upon inquiry) WOULD still pay because I'd had the policy so long there would be proof of no pre-meditated intent to extort the money from the insurance company (this was another strong motivator as in death I would provide the support for my family which was eluding me in sickness - I couldn't WORK!!!).

I told God "sorry - I can't take this anymore" (for the umteenth time) and went next to the water (ready to jump in with my trach un-capped) and a picture of my 12 year old daughter popped into my head. I saw her future, the pain I had caused, her life ruined etc, and I pulled back one more time. And went to that next level of "I will endure ANYTHING to protect her from that" so - love won out.

Problem is - I had been missing for 12 hours or so by this time and my wife thought "this time he really did it!" so my family was traumatized and angry when I turned my cell phone back on (full of pleading 'don't do it' messages :sigh:. ) and called in.

The next step was to cancel the life insurance to remove any 'noble justification' motive for suicide. It took several more years to get well enough to function (I now have a better vent/trach system) and honestly, I picked up my loaded 12 gauge more than once during that time (and I can't guarantee I never will again) but I do believe love is the only long term effective solution for anything.

My 3 cents worth (inflation) :thumbsup:  

[WhiteWings]

and went next to the water
...
My 3 cents worth (inflation)

Inflation saves!
Makes you float  :laughing7:

Of course I HATE the false doctrine of eternal torment but no doubt it has prevented some suicides along the way.

But how many did it cause? If it saved a 1000 and killed a miljon it isn't a good score. In your case (wife) it is but looking at the world as a whole....

[firstborn888]

the bible is pretty silent on the subject of suicide, it mentions two suicides in the OT without any comment, and of course Judas.

to teach everlasting torment to prevent people from suicide is the same reason as to teach everlasting torment to prevent people from committing any other sin, had it worked in the past? - I suppose not, think only about the middle ages and Catholicism

in fact this doctrine was responsible for many suicides, for child killings, that they might not go to hell...

btw concerning suicide, I would consider annihilationism more dangerous than universalism, universalism teaches at least consequences in the "afterlife", annihilationism basically not.

Not necessarily, I think that basically the main difference between UR and ED, is that ED (annihilation) teaches that you suffer punishment then you cease to exist altogether, whereas with UR you get the same punishment then instead of ceasing to exist, you are then restored once the punishment has been meted out according to your deeds

I think that's the majority view but some annihilationist believe the condemned are just *poof* and gone.

[firstborn888]

and went next to the water
...
My 3 cents worth (inflation)

Inflation saves!
Makes you float  :laughing7:

Of course I HATE the false doctrine of eternal torment but no doubt it has prevented some suicides along the way.

But how many did it cause? If it saved a 1000 and killed a miljon it isn't a good score. In your case (wife) it is but looking at the world as a whole....

Right - fear only has limited short term benefits  :thumbsup:

[fullarmor2]

    I just wonder how many people have been turned off from Jesus Christ because of the "turn or burn"  mainstream religious  preaching?  And then  how many more people  did these who were turned off,   in turn  influence negatively,  children, friends, etc...,,    And of all these souls,   how many do you think  ,   as a consequence,   went deeper into sin, darkness, depression,  and  suicide?      I  think eternal torment defenders need to think about this before they start talking about suicide!

[fullarmor2]

    I would like to point out something I truly believe regarding those who are, sadly,  at such a low point in their life,  that they are considering suicide.   Nothing can stop a person in this situation,  to include the false eternal torment doctrine,  if they are determined to go through with it.  Nothing.   Or no one can stop this person from suicide.  That is,   except,  God.   The Holy Spirit of God is the only one who can,  period!    If a person is thinking about it,  and they  have knowledge of eternal torment doctrine,  that may or may not help. If it does,  its because the Spirit of the Lord helped you ,  influencing you ,  to help. So,  its not the false doctrine of eternal torment,  but the Spirit who allowed that to help you.    in spite of the fact that its a false doctrine.   But make no mistake about it,  the Spirit of God is on top of this situation!   And God  is the reason you did not go through with it!  If its not your appointed time to die,  its not gonna happen. God will keep you,  by influencing you some how. Even if you knew nothing of eternal torment doctrine,  thats irrelevant,  God would have helped you anyway, if its not your time to go!    
     However,  sometimes God, in his sovereignty ,   obviously does allow people to go through with it,  and to commit the sin of suicide.  But,  make no mistake,   God is absolutely in control of the situation,  and has to allow it. And if God is not done with you here, on this side of the grave,  then its not gonna happen. God will use some means at God's disposal,  to keep you.   

[WhiteWings]

Nothing can stop a person in this situation

If its not your appointed time to die,  its not gonna happen. God will keep you,  by influencing you some how.

Because very seldom makes Himself know in such cases how we know the stopping was an act of God or just a friendly person that gave the one that wanted commit suicide hope/friendship?

Anyway the way you put it debunks some NDEs.
They meet (the voice of) God telling them it isn't really their time (see Glimpse of Heaven).
The get a choice of staying in Heaven or going back to earth.
That kinda sounds teh death was accidental and unplanned.

[Tim B]

Nothing can stop a person in this situation

If its not your appointed time to die,  its not gonna happen. God will keep you,  by influencing you some how.

Because very seldom makes Himself know in such cases how we know the stopping was an act of God or just a friendly person that gave the one that wanted commit suicide hope/friendship?

Anyway the way you put it debunks some NDEs.
They meet (the voice of) God telling them it isn't really their time (see Glimpse of Heaven).
The get a choice of staying in Heaven or going back to earth.
That kinda sounds teh death was accidental and unplanned.

Whether or not NDEs are true, I wouldn't consider such a scenario as evidence that the death was accidental or unplanned. If such a scenario actually took place, keeping in mind God is completely in control, it would just be something He allowed so He might make himself better known and to more influence the person who went through such an experience. (Why would he do it this way? I don't know. But then again, I don't know why he does a lot of things with people. xD)

[dboutwell]

this is what actually happened in the middle ages as I read, some monks even baptized new born childs and then chrashed their heads on rocks that they enter heaven, I came across that recently, ET is rationally and morally indefensible.

Sven,

Do you remember where you read this?

Debbie

[Tim B]

this is what actually happened in the middle ages as I read, some monks even baptized new born childs and then chrashed their heads on rocks that they enter heaven, I came across that recently, ET is rationally and morally indefensible.

Sven,

Do you remember where you read this?

Debbie

Aww, poor little babies. :( Do the monks think that they are more responsible than God, and so "save" them in such a manner?

You're right: ET is morally and rationally indefensible.

[rosered]

had it worked in the past? - I suppose not, think only about the middle ages and Catholicism

I think it's the opposite. It drives people to suicide.
First they are scared. Then very scared. Extremely scared. Then something snaps in their head. When that has happend there are no rational decisions to stop people from suicide.
Add to that the teaching that greater/more sins are punished with a hotter hell. Lesser sins get 'only' purgatory according to RCC. Then it's easy in a 'snapped mind' to step out of this life to stop adding to your sins.

  I think you  are right about that! 
while in the  churchy phase   of learning 
I did become  very suicidal  in thoughts  I could never measure up in their expectations of me and always got  brow beaten by the sermons
  realizing I DID  want to give  this life , there was nothing worth it
  thats when God stepped in out of silence and save  me /us

  Doing His thing  changing my thoughts and showing me how much in His WORD  we are  loved by Him and wanted
  there is no greater sadness in this life than to feel unloved and appreciated   and I thought that might be our wake up call  :HeartThrob:
to Hear His voice out of the darkness / emptiness  is  real hope at long last   

[sven]

I think this is, what I was looking for:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

[NinjaWizards777]

the main problem is everyone that believes in ET seems to think "UR = everyone can do what they want, no consequences! woohoo!"

and this just shows their own ignorance in the matter, because if they truthfully studied it for 5 minutes they would see thats not the case. There are still consequences...but God is bigger than all of them enough to make them work in accordance with his will (eph 1:11)

If I told someone that God loves them unconditionally, and will never give up on them...I would think if anything they would want to live moreso than if I told them "your damned to hell forever because you keep failing God with all your sins and hypocrisies!". People really do not think, I swear

[preistsplace]

the main problem is everyone that believes in ET seems to think "UR = everyone can do what they want, no consequences! woohoo!"

and this just shows their own ignorance in the matter, because if they truthfully studied it for 5 minutes they would see thats not the case. There are still consequences...but God is bigger than all of them enough to make them work in accordance with his will (eph 1:11)

If I told someone that God loves them unconditionally, and will never give up on them...I would think if anything they would want to live moreso than if I told them "your damned to hell forever because you keep failing God with all your sins and hypocrisies!". People really do not think, I swear

For most people the idea is against everything they have been taught they instinctively fight it because it threatens there safe secure world where they do not have to think and judge for themselves. We just need to prayerfully and patiently speak with them,without taking it personally.God will move all to truth in his time.
Blessings In Christ
PP

[Andromeda_Organa]

    I would like to point out something I truly believe regarding those who are, sadly,  at such a low point in their life,  that they are considering suicide.   Nothing can stop a person in this situation,  to include the false eternal torment doctrine,  if they are determined to go through with it.  Nothing.   Or no one can stop this person from suicide.  That is,   except,  God.   The Holy Spirit of God is the only one who can,  period!    If a person is thinking about it,  and they  have knowledge of eternal torment doctrine,  that may or may not help. If it does,  its because the Spirit of the Lord helped you ,  influencing you ,  to help. So,  its not the false doctrine of eternal torment,  but the Spirit who allowed that to help you.    in spite of the fact that its a false doctrine.   But make no mistake about it,  the Spirit of God is on top of this situation!   And God  is the reason you did not go through with it!  If its not your appointed time to die,  its not gonna happen. God will keep you,  by influencing you some how. Even if you knew nothing of eternal torment doctrine,  thats irrelevant,  God would have helped you anyway, if its not your time to go!    
     However,  sometimes God, in his sovereignty ,   obviously does allow people to go through with it,  and to commit the sin of suicide.  But,  make no mistake,   God is absolutely in control of the situation,  and has to allow it. And if God is not done with you here, on this side of the grave,  then its not gonna happen. God will use some means at God's disposal,  to keep you.   

fullamrom2, as somseone who has tried susicide multiple tsimes, you are exactly RIGHT!