Capital Punishment

[jabcat]

Which brings up another thing I been'a thinkin" about.

How many people who do bad things do you think may be mentally ill and/or their minds so twisted by things that have happened to them in their lives that they are then what percentage of really responsible/really knowing/really able to control what they've done?  And then what?   Do we just pray for them and tell them the Good News and hope somebody else "handles it"?  Then criticize our government when they do  :mshock:?  It really is pretty complicated when you think about it much.  :dontknow:

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Jesus saved a woman from receiving the death penalty. It's not true that He never said anything about it.

Do we think we are better than others who have sinned????

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Last but not least:

Hi to all, and love to all!

Brian

[jabcat]

Nope, that's not how I see it nor was that my point...we're all sinners in need of a Savior. 

I gave an example of where Jesus didn't say anything about the death penalty.  So with your example, we have one case out of two.  50% so far.  Which one sets the standard as far as capital punishment?  And is that really what the woman caught in adultary was about, the law of the land?  Or was that mainly about (among other things) a deeper, spiritual message?

In terms of the law of the land, do you think running a red light should carry the same penalty as slashing someone into a hundred pieces?  Or should there be no penalty - everyone do whatever they desire or feel led to do, a form of grace is offered to them, and everyone just carries on as they please.  Somehow, I'm not seeing a society (in this fallen existence) work very well that way (not that any do, really  :mshock:).

In essence, IMO, is the grace issue really about the law of the land and necessary controls in a "civilized" society, or about God's ability to redeem fallen man?  Ultimately, He will bring all that together into our day-to-day existence when His government is upon the earth.  To me, that seems yet to occur.  In the meantime, He has set those in authority to rule, make the laws, and carry out His justice.

If I were to take my own one sentence shot at it, it would be  "It's very complex, but God has a plan and He will fix it all".

[jabcat]

Thinking further of societies, what might be best (until His government is established upon the earth), etc.  The early Christians lived in what may now be described as a "socialist" type of government.  All was shared in common.  If they owned property, it was sold and given to the common cause.

Thought - Ananias and Saphira.  What happened to them when they lied to the Holy Spirit?   Did they break the "law" of that then-governing principle?  And if so, could their deaths have been a form of execution?  Did God offer "grace" at that moment to their "lawlessness", or did He "take care of business", and the completion of the application of grace to them was waiting on the other side - i.e., their souls were saved/they were reconciled to the Father - AFTER their bodies were carried out and buried!?   

Kind of thinking out loud, giving something else to consider...

[Seth]

Hi Jeff,
The society that WE are from is New Jerusalem from above, and not of this world. Yes, God killed people. BUT, Jesus told US not to. We can't use the example of God killing people to justify OUR killing of people, when Jesus says "you have heard it said 'an eye for an eye' but I SAY 'resist not evil, yet repay evil with good.'"

We do not kill people because the Father did. We DO what JESUS tells US to do. God has orders for us. Let God be God and let us be followers of Christ who is a follower of his Father.

New Jerusalem comes before being American. We cannot serve two masters, and if Christ's words "put the sword down" contradicts American "wisdom" who do we follow, where to we place our citizenship then?

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Jabcat,
I can't see Christ and the death penalty. The way I see it today, Christians should be willing to lay down their lives, not take it from other people. Should we be afraid of what men will do to us? It is God who controls this world, not man.

As far as the early disciples' government is concerned, I think they were what we would call "communists" today. The point about God taking Ananias and Saphira, I think wants to communicate to us that selfishness will have no part of "Christian communism."
In a "perfect" world there would be no selfishness, but instead every man working for the good of all people and for God.

Brian

[jabcat]

My two dear brothers Brian and Seth.  First of all, I am NOT absolutely saying capital punishment is right.  I am saying though, that respectfully, I think there may be more to it than the last 2 posts address...it's a complicated issue, and though we are individually/personally not OF the world, we are still IN it. 

To wit,

a)Jesus at one point told the disciples to bring a sword. 
b)God has placed all authorities in their position, and we are told to respect them. 
c)Maybe Jesus wouldn't use capital punishment on anyone personally  :dontknow:.  Maybe He wouldn't have gotten that involved one way or another...perhaps knowing 'b' above?
d)we're not in the aforementioned perfect world.  As I already noted, God's government (IMO) has yet to be brought fully into fruition.  In the meantime, again, see 'b' above
e)perhaps how I treat people personally on an individual basis, carries some different implications and requirements than a worldly government set in place by God does...again, the law of the land that I don't PERSONALLY/solely "execute"
f)and again, when faced with it directly, what did Jesus do or say about capital punishment...so far, we (perhaps) have identified 2 situations (thief on cross, woman in adultary [IMO, debateable that the primary issue there was capital punishment]

Please comment directly on the issues of a) sociopaths [no conscience, 99% non-rehabilitative this side of the grave] that gleefully, repeatedly murder - what's your solution/recommendation AS A SOCIETY to address that, and b) do you think running a red light should carry the same penalty as serial murdering?  Or no penalty at all, all should just be offered a sort of "grace" that we may make the attempt to offer (as we humans are unable to administer the grace that God can only provide through the blood of Jesus) which I contend, has to do with the saving of the soul and ultimate reconciliation.

For the record, I said earlier in the thread and on which I'll elaborate, my solution (in part) would be to exile hardened criminals to an isolated penal colony (island); provide them with a Bible and periodic delivery of supplies - and let them establish their own society and run it the the way they choose.  That's basically what they do anyway in our prison systems (though we do spend billions of dollars attempting to impact them while providing them cable TV and tax-supported legal services so they can sue us).  The state wouldn't have to execute anyone in that scenario.  My  :2c:.

James.

[jabcat]

Another thing to consider;  not if, but SINCE God puts in place men and governments in charge, that DO execute capital punishment, and He says the following -

Romans 13:1-4  Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Doesn't that indicate how God Himself may view capital punishment?  :mshock:

Again guys, I may be wrong - it happens often - but I really think there may be a mixing of God's grace of salvation through Jesus and a sort of "grace" we may theoretically try to offer that doesn't fully apply to earthly, worldly government - of which we are still IN.  Our view is "toward the heavenlies", but our feet are still on terra firma  :laughing7:.

[Seth]

My two dear brothers Brian and Seth.  First of all, I am NOT absolutely saying capital punishment is right.

Right, I get that. You are considering and providing thoughts and are not decided. I get that. I am just providing why I believe it is not right, at least why it is contrary to what Chirst wants US to do in contrast to anybody else.

a)Jesus at one point told the disciples to bring a sword. 

Consider that he was probably speaking spiritually, because as we see in the Word: "Our weapons of war are not carnal but spiritual." Jesus didn't speak with a forked tongue, as if to say "LOVE your enemies" then turn around and say "hack them up to pieces with a carnal sword if it's self defense." (And I know you don't think Jesus speaks with a forked tongue, but I am just calling that image to mind so that we may remember to harmonize scripture when there appears a division within itself. )

b)God has placed all authorities in their position, and we are told to respect them. 

Right, and God has also killed people too. A contruction boss will tell this worker to climb ladder, another worker to lift a bail. We just need to know what OUR role is, not the worlds, or at least to know how how the church CONTRASTS with the world and why.

c)Maybe Jesus wouldn't use capital punishment on anyone personally  .  Maybe He wouldn't have gotten that involved one way or another...perhaps knowing 'b' above?

Right. Christ tell us: you have heard it said "an eye for eye" BUT, I tell YOU resist not evil but repay evil with good. He sets that statement in CONTRAST to eye-for-eye.

Interesting how God sets up the world one way, and then tells his followers NOT to be of that world, right? Notice the contrast He creates by doing that.

e)perhaps how I treat people personally on an individual basis, carries some different implications and requirements than a worldly government set in place by God does...

New Jerusalem or America. Which one? Both? What if America tells you to contradict Christ?

Please comment directly on the issues of a) sociopaths [no conscience, 99% non-rehabilitative this side of the grave] that gleefully, repeatedly murder - what's your solution/recommendation AS A SOCIETY to address that, and b) do you think running a red light should carry the same penalty as serial murdering?  Or no penalty at all, all should just be offered a sort of "grace" that we may make the attempt to offer (as we humans are unable to administer the grace that God can only provide through the blood of Jesus) which I contend, has to do with the saving of the soul and ultimate reconciliation.

James, all that stuff has to do with how the world runs itself. God has given the world over to darkness and blindness. Let them handle those particulars. See, as much as God has established the world, he has also blinded it. So the church's job is to bring a light to them. That's all. Why get involved in whether or not the world should kill it's prisoners?

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; (even though he created the wise, and put them into position....to be confounded).

1 Cor 5::12
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside.

So, basically, who cares about how we set up laws in the world? The church does not judge those in the world, so we let God do it and go about the business of Christ's explicit will and commandments to us.

1 Cor 7:32-34
I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided.

[Seth]

James, basically what I am saying is that we have been set free from trying to reconcile Christ's words with the world's workings. They don't reconcile, and never have. But we have been set FREE from HAVING to do that like the Evangelical Church does, who marries themselves to the world and serves two masters.

Edit: sorry, I called you Jeff. It's because I know a Jeff, so I get J names messed up.

[jabcat]

Sean, I mean Seth  :laughing7:...I believe you make some very good points, well worth further consideration.   :thumbsup:

I am personally not a politically active person.  Yes, how God sets up governments is interesting, and I agree, we need to reconcile it all.  That's what I'm trying to do.  I think it's complicated.  I'm not sure we can say simply that we are not to have any participation at all, and somehow that's reconciling it.  Maybe so, and I have been thinking about mainstream Christianity's role in this regard.  But I'm going to have to think about it some more (or let it go and let God show us each what He wants us to see  :Peace2:).  But right now I'm just not sure all that's what the passage in Romans is saying.  Seems to me there's a pretty big picture.

Regarding your comment about New Jerusalem vs. America, and "what if America asks you to contradict Christ", I'd have to think about that some more, because with a brief consideration, actually, I think it does every single day of yours and my life, and I'd guess we both probably do so, at least to some degree.  For instance, I'd guess you pay taxes (if not, let me in on your secret) and I reluctantly do; while knowing that a large percentage of that money goes toward (what I would consider) evil, unGodly activities and pursuits.  For one, that includes some educational activities with which I'd take umbrage, as well as support for and even in some cases, perhaps actually providing the abortions.  Yet Jesus said for us to render to Caesar what is Caesar's.  I pay taxes against a part of my conscience, because the other, bigger part of my conscience tells me to do so, as appropriately rendering, and submitting to the authority God put in place.  There's the answer to your question to me.  What would/do you do since (I believe) America IS constantly requiring you to contradict Christ?  Then I believe there's a whole other HUGE discussion there, i.e.,  to what extent do we/should we tolerate that and comply;  what are the limits/what all does it really mean to be in the world but not of it.  How much can we ignore the day-to-day, while at the same time being submitted and subjected to it?  (Rhetorical/open questions.)   

As Romans 13:4 says, those in authority are there as ministers of God and divinely appointed to execute God's wrath on those who practice evil.  Do you believe a Christian should not be a police officer, or a local judge, or a school security guard, or a prison warden?  That we should abstain from any part of either supporting the government or playing any active role within that government?  Or do you believe He only uses unsaved, non-believers to be His divinely appointed ministers in those areas so we can try to totally ignore it and not have anything to do with?   I personally think that impossible, so again, there's a balance, a reconciliation of it all somewhere :dontknow:. 

I've been thinking lately of an old saying I remember from my mom.  I'd have to wonder some more about how much merit it really has, as well as how it reconciles within all that we're discussing.  But it at least gives me pause to think.  I've heard her say "he's so heavenly minded that he's no earthly good". 

Wonder if the jailer that got saved in scripture (Acts) quit his job?  :Chinscratch:

[Beloved Servant]

"he's so heavenly minded that he's no earthly good"
That's been bantered around for many, many years.
No disrespected to your mom — It's an old adage.
However, it is the heavenly minded that do God's will.
While the rest struggle in captivity.
I do understand that there are those under the law and are subject to it.
Whatever the law says: Goes.
It's different from time to time; place to place.
The law is Given by God. Sovereign over the nations, albeit the world.
And then, those no longer under the law, through faith, are subject to grace.
Members of Christ, HIMSELF.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup: BServ.

[Beloved Servant]

THAT WAS PERSONALLY FOR YOU JAMES, SON OF THE MOST HIGH.

[jabcat]

Humbly accepted.  And to you.  Very nice, very poignant.

[jabcat]

And thanks!   :handshake:

[Seth]

As Romans 13:4 says, those in authority are there as ministers of God and divinely appointed to execute God's wrath on those who practice evil.  Do you believe a Christian should not be a police officer, or a local judge, or a school security guard, or a prison warden?  That we should abstain from any part of either supporting the government or playing any active role within that government? 

My thoughts on that are similar to what Paul was saying about marriage. He PREFERRED people not to get married so that their focus would NOT be divided between the world's and God's work prepared for them. However, he did not OUTLAW marriage, right? It was just a suggestion. I take the same approach.

I don't recommend people take positions in the government, but if they do then God placed them there according to his Sovereignty which is His invisible workings. If, and this is a big IF, the position does not cause someone to fall from Christ's commandments to the church, then I see no problem. But, why open the opportunity right?

If someone is in a position where they must KILL an enemy for the WORLD's sake, that is a problem. That is a choice against Christ's orders for his solders of mercy and grace. That is where the "kill them terrorist" church camps attempt to reconcile Christ's DIRECT command not to kill our enemies. They don't understand that they do not HAVE to reconcile the world with the church but to EMBRACE the difference and let the world take care of the world and let the church take care of the church, and bring a light unto the world. But everyone is in charge of their own faith and their own walk, and God is our judge.

But it does seem clear to me that Paul would have PREFERRED us to not be mixed up with the world's affairs as much as we possibly can.

[Seth]

I always get the question too: if ALL war is wrong and evil (which it is) what should we do if we are invaded. First I say "we?" Then I say, what if everyone in America was like Stephen, the first martyr. No doubt, it would be a slaughter. The nation would be overrun. As it is, few are chosen. War is evil and wrong in all cases, but it will happen, because Jesus said "these things MUST happen." But I have no part in it.

If I "render unto Caesar" it is no longer my money.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Let's take this death penalty thing one step further.

Christians are supposed to be "Christ-like" or "little Christs." Right?
If so, consider the following:

God declared that all were under sin, and therefore, "worthy of the death penalty."
Jesus Christ came in order to free the world of the death penalty by dying in our places. (We didn't earn it, we didn't ask for Him to do it, we didn't "choose Christ.")
No, no one was seeking for salvation.
Jesus came to die the death penalty, and freed us by doing so!

This is like what happened in New Mexico recently! The death penalty was overturned, and all prisoners were "let off the hook!"

THIS is grace, friends.

And no one deserves it. Sometimes we get thinking we deserve it. Or that some people are "worse" than us, even though we may SAY that all are equally sinners.

But God has let us ALL free from the death penalty, and that by killing His only begotten SON.


-Shouldn't we, who say we believe, be willing to lay our lives down for the lost and "really sinful" ones, even those on death row today?
Wouldn't that be "CHRIST-LIKE?"



I gotta sleep a little now...
Bye for now!
Love,
Brian

[SQ]

Jabcat,
I have been thinking about this lately, when Jesus said bring a sword isn't it a possibility he meant come prepared with the word of his mouth not an actual sword?
Just thinking... :2c: