After leaving the church, my ex-pastor send me this e-mail

[IceDash]

This is what he said, and it full of human's carnal mind:

Do we believe Gods Word?  If so, why don't we obey it?  He told us that so that by the love we show others they might see God's love and change their ways. Jesus gives us the opportunity to change. If we do not we remain lost and are headed for hell.

I wish I didn't have to believe in hell, but the bible teaches it. We either believe God and His word, or we don't. Everyone has a choice. While seeing the need for eternal justice, the thought of cruel and unusual punishment that lasts forever sounds wrong to me. Yet, the Bible describes God as a great King who creates a lake of everlasting fire for rebels who want no part of His kingdom.


I'm trying to believe no more and no less than what the Bible requires us to believe. I've thought a lot about the story Jesus told of a callous rich man who died and found himself in Hades. Even before the final judgment, the man was suffering in flame and torment (Luke 16:19-31). Whether Jesus was speaking in a parable or not, I've found some solace in the fact that the man in the fire was able to carry on a conversation. He was not suffering in the way I imagined as a child.



Admittedly, Jesus didn't tell the story to comfort us. He went on to describe how the man in the flame asked for a messenger to be sent back to the land of the living. He wanted his five brothers to be warned about this place of torment. But he was told, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead" (Luke 16:31).



Jesus uses a word picture of the garbage dump to the south of Jerusalem where the refuse of the city was burned. Jesus uses this real place of burning rubble to illustrate the fate of those who gain the world but lose their soul (Matthew 16:26). On several occasions Jesus speaks of the wailing and gnashing of teeth that will accompany final judgment (Matthew 13:42). Three times in Mark 9, He draws on the words of Isaiah when He describes the danger of "the fire that shall never be quenched—where 'their worm does not die.' " If Jesus uses these words in the same way as Isaiah, He is warning about the horror of divine judgment without telling us for how long or to what degree such persons suffer.



The language of "eternal conscious torment" comes most clearly from the last book of the New Testament. In a book that uses strong symbolic language to sound clear warnings of judgment, we read that all those who worship the beast (14:11), the beast himself, the false prophet, and the devil will all be cast into the lake of fire where "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (20:10). Chapter 20 goes on to say that Death, Hades, and everyone not found written in the Book of Life also will be cast into the lake of fire (vv.14-15).



So how do we take these warnings to heart without losing our minds over lost loved ones? Our challenge is to believe as Abraham did, that "the Judge of all the earth will do right" (Genesis 18:25). Such a God understands infinitely better than we do how to exercise justice that is consistent with His own character.



Jesus repeatedly indicated that judgment will be more tolerable for some than for others (Matthew 10:15; 11:22, 24; Luke 12:46-48). In addition, Revelation 20:15 does not explicitly say that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire will suffer in the same way as the devil and those who worship him (14:11; 20:10). For what we cannot understand, those of us who bear heartache for lost loved ones need to trust the One who loves them far more than we do. He has told us as much as He wants us to know. The rest we need to leave in His hands.





In other word, I told him in reply that "then there nothing I can do for you unless you open your heart, not your mind"

[jabcat]

Wow...he took a few scriptures just a little out of context, including Jesus' words to the Jews about Israel and the Kingdom...as well as putting the Dark Ages spin to it...he probably doesn't know any better, God will have to reveal to him...however, Paul said to "charge and teach THESE things...Jesus, Savior of all men, especially those that are believing".  We charge and teach, God has to reveal.

Insightful answer to him.

[IceDash]

Wow...he took a few scriptures just a little out of context, including Jesus' words to the Jews about Israel and the Kingdom...as well as putting the Dark Ages spin to it...he probably doesn't know any better, God will have to reveal to him...however, Paul said to "charge and teach THESE things...Jesus, Savior of all men, especially those that are believing".  We charge and teach, God has to reveal.

Insightful answer to him.

i did told him but his eye are cover with fear, he think he understand the bible clearly...

[jabcat]

yeah, I understand...he'll see it someday  :sigh:

[WhiteWings]

Hi IceDash,

Is this the e-mail your girlfriend/wife deleted when you where in bed?

[IceDash]

Hi IceDash,

Is this the e-mail your girlfriend/wife deleted when you where in bed?

No, this is another one.....today.

[WhiteWings]

Even before the final judgment, the man was suffering in flame and torment (Luke 16:19-31).

So for some torment will last eternally + a few thousand years.

Whether Jesus was speaking in a parable or not,

At least he leaves room for it being a parable.  A spark of light in his dark mind.
So if it's a real story there are real flames. If it's a parable it's not about flames at all. But he even assumes flames in the parable.

I've found some solace in the fact that the man in the fire was able to carry on a conversation. He was not suffering in the way I imagined as a child.

Another spark of light.
Even in the 'coldest' fire is to hot to have a normal conversation. Try it in your own lake of boiling water. Far colder that the coldest flames.
LoF contains molten sulpher/brimstone. Melting point of sulpher is 235 °F. About 12% above boiling water.
Still doesn't make sense.

[jabcat]

Sounds like one of probably many (not the truly twisted ones) that really wish they didn't "have to" believe in hell...they just really think it's there...that's all the level of understanding they have...this guy sounds like he's a pretty good-hearted fellow  :sigh:

[IceDash]

he is good pastor, he a good man but preaching to people how God does it for people in hell is like preaching about you mom and dad molesting children that really not true!

[sven]

as he might tend to believe in annihilation of some (2nd death?), this might help him:

http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

it explains the unquenchable fire, Rev. 14:11, the undieing worm  (the Septuagint says, where their worm shall not come to an end; and it's about corpses)

[martincisneros]

So, basically the pastor responded in the way that any Biblically based Christian Universalist would respond -- sans the forever and evers.

[WhiteWings]

So, basically the pastor responded in the way that any Biblically based Christian Universalist would respond -- sans the forever and evers.

Not really sans, but switched/inverted...

ET: Mercy=eonian   <----> Wrath=eternal
UR: Mercy=eternal  <----> Wrath=eonian

[Cardinal]

LoF contains molten sulpher/brimstone. Melting point of sulpher is 235 °F. About 12% above boiling water.

:cloud9: Only slightly off topic  :mblush:, but I have on many occasions been allowed to "smell" demons and sometimes (not always) they smell of something burning. I've always found this curious. Blessings...

[IceDash]

as he might tend to believe in annihilation of some (2nd death?), this might help him:

http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

it explains the unquenchable fire, Rev. 14:11, the undieing worm  (the Septuagint says, where their worm shall not come to an end; and it's about corpses)

yeah but any preacher or pastor would be lazy to check it out because their's mind are stuck with this one, all I can do is wait for Jesus's return and when everyone join in the great feast festival wedding of the Lord's return and family reunion, I will see him and hug him and we will all sit down on the golden folding chair (if...lol :laughing7:) and some neat food and the lord with us and we shall feast whatever the lord gave us.

AMEN!

[Tim B]

What your pastor doesn't seem to understand is this: if God allows people to go to Hell, even whilst giving them free will, he knowingly created beings that he knew would not choose them within this life time. If God created them knowing that they will burn/suffer conscious torment forever, or allow them be annihilated in the flames of the LoF, is he not unspeakably cruel?? It's not like God had no choice in their creation, and as long as it remains plausible that he could create only men that he knew would choose them, why not do that? Only if God saves all men does he become truly Good.

[preistsplace]

right on and once you realize that the Bible takes on  a much deeper meaning.And I can tell you one thing too,ever since the Spirit led me to this truth I have felt more and more at peace and in love with God!!!

[dboutwell]

But he was told, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead" (Luke 16:31).

I guess this pastor is using the verses in Isaiah..undying worms..unquenchable fire to say that the "prophets" speak of Hell, but I don't know of any place that Moses did..does anybody? I know he really didn't but is there any of his writting that one could use to say it is referring to Hell? Or, is "Moses and the prophets" just a term for the OT?

just wondering,

Debbie

[WhiteWings]

Rich man = The (fallen away part of the) Jewish nation
Lazarus = all not part of the Jewish nation - shut out - Gentiles

Tom Wright is certainly not a universalist (nor has he made any clear statement on the possibility of post mortem repentance/salvation as far as I am aware) yet he is just as adamant as many universalists that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus does not teach or support the doctrine of hell as a place of eternal punishment. Indeed, he states that this parable, like 'most of the passages in the New Testament which have been thought by the Church to refer to people going into eternal punishment after they die' is not about Heaven and Hell at all. Rather, its message is the same as that of the parable of the prodigal son (and his brother) in the preceding chapter: '[resurrection] is happening all around and the Pharisees cannot see it'. This is remarkably similar to a classical universalist interpretation of the passage.

According to Hanson, Huie, Patching, Eby, Witherell and Martin, the rich man represents 'the Jewish nation' – or that portion of it that rejected Jesus and his message i.e. the priests or the Pharisees (to whom we can deduce that the parable was addressed from verse 14). Lazarus, meanwhile, represents the Gentiles who were, to the kind of people being attacked in the parable, mere beggars and outside the boundaries of God's kingdom. It is important to understand that this is not inappropriate allegorisation. All of these commentators believe that the historical Jesus told (the whole of) this parable and that he was consciously referring to the Jews and the Gentiles and that his audience would have been painfully aware of this. Again, such a view is certainly consistent with verse 14. So, what was Jesus' point here?

According to these universalist scholars, it was that the kingdom of God was soon to be 'taken away from you [i.e. the Pharisees/Jews who rejected him] and given to a people that produces the fruit of the kingdom' (as in Matthew 21:43). The former would duly weep and gnash their teeth as they saw 'Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God' while they themselves were 'thrown out' (as in Luke 13:28-29). To add to their torment, they would also have to watch 'Gentile dogs' 'come from east and west... and... eat in the kingdom of God'.