ALL to Reign in Christ! :)

[Tim B]

I read this while looking at Romans 5:15-21 in the Rotherham's Emphasized Bible:

15But, not as the fault, so, [[also]] the decree of favor, for, if, by the fault of the one, the many died, much more, the favour of God and the free-gift in favour, by the one man Jesus Christ, unto the many superabounded; 16And, not as through one that sinned, is that which is freely given, for, the sentence of judgement, indeed, was-out of one [fault] into condemnation, whereas, the decree of favour, is-out of many faults, into a recovery of righteousness. 17For, if, by the fault of the one, death reigned through the one, much more, they who the superabundance of the favour and of [[the free-gift of]] the righteousness do receive, in life, shall reign through the one, Jesus Christ.

Obviously all men have died. This is the "the many" that died. It also says the free-gift of God was given to "the many" and superabounded. Further, it states, that "they" that receive this superabundant free-gift will reign with Christ. So "the many" who died (all men) have been given the superabundant free-gift of God, and through this gift reign with Christ!

What do you guys think of my look on this verse?

[jabcat]

I like it.  There may be some intermediate steps, but I think when it's all said and done, that's what happens.  His shed blood, grace, and salvation was/is for all.  Then I believe at some point, Jesus turns all over to the Father, and everything and everyone is subject to Him.  I've read and come to believe that means Jesus doesn't "reign" anymore.  But could it really be that He continues to reign to some degree and in some regard (and us with Him somehow), just all UNDER the Father in a different, set arrangement?  Maybe not, I don't know, just wondering.  One thought might be exactly what does reign mean, and maybe it has different variations at different times.  I know generally what it means, but maybe there are some nuances.  I'll look.

[jabcat]

1. the period during which a sovereign occupies the throne.
2. royal rule or authority; sovereignty.
3. dominating power or influence: the reign of law. 

–verb (used without object) 4. to possess or exercise sovereign power or authority.
5. to hold the position and name of sovereign without exercising the ruling power.
6. to have control, rule, or influence of any kind.
7. to predominate; be prevalent.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1225–75;

Synonyms:
2. dominion, rule, govern, prevail.

[Tim B]

1. the period during which a sovereign occupies the throne.
2. royal rule or authority; sovereignty.
3. dominating power or influence: the reign of law. 

–verb (used without object) 4. to possess or exercise sovereign power or authority.
5. to hold the position and name of sovereign without exercising the ruling power.
6. to have control, rule, or influence of any kind.
7. to predominate; be prevalent.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1225–75;

Synonyms:
2. dominion, rule, govern, prevail.

Interesting that it's possible to reign without actually using that power. So, perhaps reign simply means being in power, yet not necessarily needed to use that power. Because, if all things are made all in all in God, it might be asked: what is God reigning over? It's not like he any longer needs to keep people in line. Maybe it could be argued he "reigns" in their hearts I suppose.

I don't know, for some reason I didn't think of "reign" as using power over something else when I posted that. I think I'm used to thinking of "reign" as in being equal with Christ, or something along those lines. (lol I don't think that that way of thinking on my part really makes much sense, but you know...)

[Tim B]

Oh, I also noticed that the verse says that "in life" they shall reign. Maybe it is signifying those that come to receive God's free-get during THIS LIFE on Earth shall reign. Reign over the non-believers maybe? (Until they come to believe.)

[jabcat]

If it's in this life, what about reign over sin?  As in, a) living blood-washed/blood-bought, forgiven, victorious by His power and grace vs. b) living in shame, "condemned already", and/or "headed for destruction"?   :scratchhead:

[Tim B]

If it's in this life, what about reign over sin?  As in, a) living blood-washed/blood-bought, forgiven, victorious by His power and grace vs. b) living in shame, "condemned already", and/or "headed for destruction"?   :scratchhead:

Oh, duh! I forgot about the obvious option! lol That makes sense too. ^_^ I was just thinking about the option of reigning with a rod of iron, which was mentioned somewhere in another thread. Thus I missed the more, and to me, better answer.

[jabcat]

I'm really not sure brother, just kind'a what's coming to me...I have heard that term though, reigning over sin.  And IMO, we can only do that by His free gift, Him doing it through us.  So that would be TOTALLY reigning IN Him.  There may be other meanings/layers to it...

[jabcat]

Even though Paul was obviously the elect, saved to the uttermost, etc., he still said he had sin reigning in his body.  HOWEVER, he said it was no longer him doing the sin, so honestly, he certainly sounded much more victorious than condemned...as though he were reigning over, because of and IN Jesus.

[WhiteWings]

So "the many" who died (all men) have been given the superabundant free-gift of God, and through this gift reign with Christ!

That would be a odd conclusion/situation. Usually one or a few people rule over many people. But in this case it would mean a land with 80% kings and 20% citizens. (numbers as an example)
If you add that many alive are spiritual dead the blance probably shifts to 99% - 1%
Anyway interesting set of verses. Good look into it some more on my Sabbath day   :boogie:

[jabcat]

IMO, that would back up the thought (which I personally believe) that not all are saved now...that there is a specific time when God's Spirit visits each person and calls and chooses them...that there is a specific event of believing, repenting (turning).  Some now, the rest later at their appointed time. 

I know all don't see it this way, but again, if all (the many) reign, it seems pretty obvious (to me) that all are not yet doing so...many are still in total captivity to sin and have no relationship whatsoever with the Son.  But they will someday.  My  :2c:.

[WhiteWings]

Jabcat,

Who/what are you replying too?

that would back up the thought that not all are saved now

IMO the OP states that all are saved now (now=the lifetime of that person)
I conclude that because IMO only the saved can be kings. But OP/Tim reasons that the dead will rise and rule.
Therefore the dead are made free of sin/forgiven.
So from that I conclude the dead where saved during their life. Or by dying?

[SPOKENFOR]

Isn't it just a certain amount of believers who will actually REIGN with Christ during the 1000 Mill period? Or am I wrong? The first fruits?

[WhiteWings]

That's my understanding too SF.
First fruits is the spring harvest. A rather small harvest.
The fall harvest is the much larger.
The OP, the way I understand it, has it the other way around.

I think the salvation process follows natural farming.
Jesus the sower.
First fruit/spring harvest.
Fall harvest.

The two main topics of the Bible. Harvests/farming and marriage.

[SPOKENFOR]

Yes WW, I am coming to understand a lot of these things of late. The first fruits and all of that. I am still learning, but I agree the first harvest is very small.

[jabcat]

Jabcat,

Who/what are you replying too?

that would back up the thought that not all are saved now

Made sense at the time  :laughing7:.  I still believe what I wrote, but having trouble connecting it right now.  I'll leave it as it stands and maybe somebody will get something out of it. 

I think it's really saying similar to what you and spokenfor just said, i.e., a group now, more/the rest later...each in his own order, but all destined to reign over sin and death, as I see it.  As I said, there may be more layers, as in an actual # reigning "with a rod of iron" over the nations, bringing them in.  But really, I don't think that's necessarily what this particular verse is addressing.  I personally think it's the reigning over sin and death, i.e., being "saved".

[WhiteWings]

Further, it states, that "they" that receive this superabundant free-gift will reign with Christ.

NET Romans 5:17 For if, by the transgression of the one man, death reigned through the one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ!

YLT Romans 5:17 for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ.

I think the key is "in life"
Only those who receive the gift in this life shall rule. Many don't. So most dead didn't receive the gift and therefore are not gonna rule.

[Molly]

That's my understanding too SF.
First fruits is the spring harvest. A rather small harvest.
The fall harvest is the much larger.
The OP, the way I understand it, has it the other way around.

I think the salvation process follows natural farming.
Jesus the sower.
First fruit/spring harvest.
Fall harvest.

The two main topics of the Bible. Harvests/farming and marriage.

Some more things I have thought about the firstfruits and the harvest--

The firstfruits are the literal first fruits of any crop--

Each harvest corresponds to a time of year, and to each of the three feasts--barley, wheat, and grapes corresponding in time and metaphor to the three feasts in the Old Testament.

The spring harvest is the barley harvest--the poor man's bread--and that barley harvest has its first fruits which are waved by the priest before God and corresponds to Passover--which in the New Testament is the death and resurrection of Christ.

Christ is the firstfruits of the first harvest because he is pre-eminent in everything.

But, this also corresponds to our waving the risen Christ [in us] before God--because this is the only offering we have that is acceptable to God.

I love all the metaphors that are buried in the literal.

16 "Celebrate the Feast of Harvest with the firstfruits of the crops you sow in your field.

--Exodus 23

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: What came out of God and His Christ, will eventually return.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

[Tim B]

Further, it states, that "they" that receive this superabundant free-gift will reign with Christ.

NET Romans 5:17 For if, by the transgression of the one man, death reigned through the one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ!

YLT Romans 5:17 for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ.

I think the key is "in life"
Only those who receive the gift in this life shall rule. Many don't. So most dead didn't receive the gift and therefore are not gonna rule.

Hey WW, that's what I noticed after I read it some more. I think it does say that all will be saved, but only those that receive the gift in THIS LIFE will reign.