hanging by a thread

[jerryc]

after coming from a very long history of debates over numerous topics of differing theological concerns, i am finding not much different here. i am not afraid of debate nor naive enough to think there aren't differences. i am just so tired of hearing the same type of rhetoric. for this debate, i hear just as much name calling ON BOTH SIDES with self -righteousness spewing. of course, it always is said quoting scriptures, explaining the greek and hebrew, substituting symbolism, mythology appropiate, etc etc.
i am weary to the point of forgetting the whole christian cause or maybe a belief in god at all. if you are going to put a lot of your opinion on mythological or fearful rhetoric,symbolism, an of course the infamous 'interpretations of what god gave you personally', then how can there ever be a real conclusion to any belief?
how can there not be the same view about the incarnation, virgin birth, sinless christ, ressurection, or heaven.
come on, all of those things are just as much a part of a mythological world as hell. a god somewhere in the cosmos sending a son born of a virgin without sinning his whole life, dying and rising for the world's sins? you've got to be kidding me!
of course, like every other issue in the bible or about the bible itself, after all the debating, we are suppose to act on faith of this newfound revelation. but whose revelation? what makes anybodies right over everybody elses?

i just wanted all to know that while everybody is having a gay old time having your discussions, there is at least one person hanging on by a thread to have some reason not to call it all hogwash and quit. why not? after all, even if i don't believe in inclusion and its right, i still get to go to heaven (i think, if there really is one) and i have been able to
escape the hell on earth that all this creates. i'm so tired. 

[SeekerSA]

Hi Jerry

I have moved your post into the Members Section.

:welcome: to TM

I guess for most we like to discuss our beliefs although I see where you are coming from.  Some find the need to be right but that is not the point of discussion.  Sure there are debates and some thrive on that too.  The important thing is not to lose sight of what really is important, God.

Why do I share so much?  I find I can articulate myself better with words in text rather than talking.  It is a way I get my thoughts coherently presented, something you do not get to do if you accidentally say something wrong.

Again I enjoy reading other peoples thoughts as God does not reveal Himself exactly the same way to everyone.  There are similarities however and when we see this shared it helps to build our faith.

For me the virtual church is great as you get to meet and talk to people from many different cultures, something that does not happen in your home town or church.

What is the common denominator is the belief in Christ and I guess once set free from the fear of Eternal Torment it opens the door to seek out a Loving Father's heart with confidence yet with humility.

At times when we get like you infer, it is time to take a break from forums and find your peace again in God.

I will PM you a link for a forum where there is no debate and discussions are only for edification.  Membership is restricted.

Find rest in God bro.

Blessings

[Craig]

I understand,

In actuality, because this is a discussion forum, you will have discussions. The reality is because these are discussions and some turn to debates, that is all it is. That is not to say that the two having the discussion or debate do not believe in the same thing of essential understanding, but passionate differences in some of the non-essentials.

Really it doesn't matter if you have free-will or not, Salvation is in Christ Jesus who saved the whole world on His account, and not some magic prayer we call the 'sinner's prayer' and not by some dunking in some water from the local river which was blessed by the pastor for baptism. It doesn't matter if you pre-existed or just exist when created, you are reconciled in Jesus Christ, through his blood, and held together by Him, through Him and for Him.

I understand that I have some part in those discussions and debates, and I too have the same thoughts that come across my head. What I know, I know without doubt, there is no 'opinion', no 'belief', etc., because if that is all I believe is some opinion, or belief, then I am not in persuit of the truth. If everything is just opinion or belief, then it is worthless and not of God, at all.

Davo22, one of the moderators here, said to me the other day, "I've found people like to make a big show of not knowing the truth in anything, but then they won't have you [anyone] disagreeing with them [either]." I am sure that means he finds many people want to hear, "I don't know, but here is what I think." or "In my opinion, this is how I believe." because they don't want to be rocked out of their boat.

From my experience, and it is scientifically proven that 80% of people will ignore the facts, ignore the truth, in favor of a comfortable feeling or position. It is not until a crisis occurrs, that a person is forced into look at the facts and accept the truth. So persistance of facts and truth will not cause change, most will ignore it if it makes them personally uncomfortable, it is uncomfortable to be wrong, but it will cause a crisis. It is when the crisis comes, that is when they will change and you see their true character.

Now saying this, this is a forum, you cannot percieve tones or body langauge, and much of the fights and disagreements are based on the assumption of the reader, and is not always as the writer intends. If we had people always think the best of each other, instead of assuming a negative context, it would be far superior discusisons. You have come to a community of hurt and unheard people. They have fought the fight of faith in their churches and were kicked out for believing in Universal Salvation. They have been condemned for believing God is Love. They have been shunned because they believe God will win in the end. So when they come here, they want to be heard, they want to be loved and accepted.

I understand this, I can give the love and acceptance, but when people are saying things like, "This is my opinion" or "I do not know but here is what I believe...",  and again from experience, I found opinions and not knowing yet have beliefs on something, can cause a lot more harm then good.

Paul says it as "Always learning, but never acknowledging the truth. [2 Tim 3:7]" and people we should not listen to when it comes to the truth. This causes them to be a bad witness concerning the truth, because if their words were ever repeated to defend what they believe by another who is looking for answers, they will be shut down by the most observant of opposition. In otherwords, if a person comes up and says, "I believe that Jesus saved all mankind because we pre-existed" because it just is a comfortable thought, it will be refuted by those who know far more about Scripture and Biblical Understanding. The truth that Jesus saved all mankind will be lost because some rhetoric which is unprovable, even by those who claim it, and the individual who thought it was helpful, will grow bitter and be worse then he was before.

I hope you also understand there is self-righteousness and then there is confidence, it is easy to confuse the two if you do not know what is right. There is truth and there is the lie, it is easy to confuse the two if you do not know what is right.

Like  yourself, I have been on the edge myself. When I see the much confusion in belief, I also was on the verge of giving up all together. What is the purpose or reason to any of it, if it is just a mish mash of opinions and beliefs, and no truth to be found. I remembered saying to God, "If you are this God of confusion, then I will not follow you. My God is righteous, holy and perfect, He does not decieve and always makes the crooked pathes straight." Indeed, I challenged Him to prove to me the truth of Jesus without a shadow of a doubt, or I want nothing to do with Him.

In the conclusion, He pointed out, 1) All Scripture must be read in Love. 2) All things must point the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, and no other. 3) The truth is not subjective to perception or feeling, the truth is sometimes very uncomfortable to accept.

Those three points, establish the indisputable truth, that through the Love of the Father and His Son, all mankind has been saved according to His work on the cross. Though Eternal Torment is uncomfortable, it rejects the first two points. For many, that Jesus saved all mankind is uncomfortable, but it covers the first two points.

So I hope you are doing well and that my experience can help you understand that not everything is as it seems, especially online. God bless.

Craig  :boyheart:

[Kratos]

Jerry,

I would just submit to you that if you are so easily shaken by reading what is written on forums, please do not go there for now. Your faith and foundation must be in the person of the Lord Jesus and not in the debating habits of men. Spend your time with the Lord and with your Bible and  with solid Christians around you. Leave the cyber church to those who know in whom they have believed. Whereas, nothing is unlawful of itself (including discussion forums), not all things are expedient for all.

Blessings,

John

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Jerryc... :hithere:

after coming from a very long history of debates over numerous topics of differing theological concerns, i am finding not much different here. i am not afraid of debate nor naive enough to think there aren't differences. i am just so tired of hearing the same type of rhetoric. for this debate, i hear just as much name calling ON BOTH SIDES with self -righteousness spewing. of course, it always is said quoting scriptures, explaining the greek and hebrew, substituting symbolism, mythology appropiate, etc etc.
i am weary to the point of forgetting the whole christian cause or maybe a belief in god at all. if you are going to put a lot of your opinion on mythological or fearful rhetoric,symbolism, an of course the infamous 'interpretations of what god gave you personally', then how can there ever be a real conclusion to any belief?
how can there not be the same view about the incarnation, virgin birth, sinless christ, ressurection, or heaven.
come on, all of those things are just as much a part of a mythological world as hell. a god somewhere in the cosmos sending a son born of a virgin without sinning his whole life, dying and rising for the world's sins? you've got to be kidding me!
of course, like every other issue in the bible or about the bible itself, after all the debating, we are suppose to act on faith of this newfound revelation. but whose revelation? what makes anybodies right over everybody elses?

i just wanted all to know that while everybody is having a gay old time having your discussions, there is at least one person hanging on by a thread to have some reason not to call it all hogwash and quit. why not? after all, even if i don't believe in inclusion and its right, i still get to go to heaven (i think, if there really is one) and i have been able to
escape the hell on earth that all this creates. i'm so tired. 

In spite of all the "opinions" and/or "KNOWLEDGE" which is claimed here by MEN...

JESUS CHRIST is your LORD and SAVIOR, and thankfully for all of us HE is the ONE true thing that ETERNALLY stands for ALL of us, no matter how much or little we may know or, claim to know...

So keep your trust in CHRIST, and not men... KNOWING that HE has your "back", ...and your life shall remain in GOOD HANDS...

Hold on to Him Jerryc and KNOW the ONLY  fact you need to KNOW, in your heart:

CHRIST is ALWAYS there for YOU, even when it seems ALL of US are against you... If you are to "hang on by a thread"  Hand on to that one...  :thumbsup:

(btw the name of my "best friend" [aside from my wife of 31yrs] in life was Jerry Craven! God rest his wonderful soul)...

ShaLoM...  :dsunny:

In  JESUS...willieH  :icon_king:

[dboutwell]

Jerry,

I agree with the others that maybe you should leave the forums alone a while. When it all comes down to what you conclude about this whole "God" thing, it will probably be just you and HIm, anyway.

I think there comes a time in all our lives when the Lord looks us in the face and asks, "who do YOU say that I am?"

I came from a very "literal interpretation", pre-trib rapture, denomination and if I tried to hang on every thought and teaching on here, I would be in trouble for sure.

My advice would probably be to get of all forums, enjoy life, love people like you want to be loved. You sound like you do believe. Ask God to help you unbelief. If I was God that is certainly a prayer that I would answer for my child. I'm bettin God will show up. :HeartThrob:

Debbie

[Redlettervoice]

It takes a lifetime it seems to learn to eat the meat and spit out the bones. ha

I can't tell you how many times I "used" to say that about forums!!! and people! ha

God knows your UPRising and your DOWNsitting, He's not alarmed ........you are just

a human, and He knows your frame.

I'd say, "Follow your heart." Of course, about the time I'd decide to go ......here'd

come the Spirit giving me something to SAY so I learned to just make no decisions on it ....

just try to go and come as I feel to.

[bhark54]

Besides this forum I participate in one designed for pilots.   Very often a simple question is posed by either a student pilot or someone with many years of flying experience.   What often follows is a very lengthy and legalistic review and "interpretation" of the Federal Aviation Regulations.   There is often name calling, rank pulling and even insults.  Once in a whlile one of the "high priests"  (airline pilots) will actually make a call to the FAA director and seek the real answer.  Even after that there is still generally disagreement and lack of unity.

All that confusion from a living, currently existing organization and code!

How much more must the difficulty be for us to properly discern the ancient written word of God?  We do have one advantage and that is that for most of us here our motive is love.

Bob H

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :2c: I would ask the Lord what HE wants you to do. If He wants you here, you'll be blessed, even if doesn't look like it to your natural eyes. And you may be blessed by BEING the blessing for someone else. ALL things work together for good, for those that love the Lord.....even on these discussion boards, LOL. Blessings to you......