What is "satan"?

[Doc]

Only sinners are cast in LoF. We are all in LoF. LoF comes after judgement. Judgement comes after life.
That would mean we all had a previous, and bad, life.

It's true that only "sinners" are cast into the LoF (are we not all sinners, being saved by grace? Were we not all at one point fearful and unbelieving?), but LoF coming "after" judgment is only necessarily true if we can be certain that Revelation is linear and literal. If it's not, then it wouldn't be necessary to assume that we had a previous and bad life. Also, not all judgment comes after life. (If you're thinking of Hebrews, I think the context there suggests that the statement in question is in connection with a comparison of priestly systems). We know that at least for the believer, judgment actually (at least) begins taking place in this life.

I'm just thinking out loud here.

[WhiteWings]

Aren't we purified and ready for heaven when we exit LoF?
If LoF is now we exit it at death.
Looking at Hitler and Stalin I don't really have the impression they died purified with a "love your neighbor" mindset....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi cp... :hithere:

Sorry for taking so long to get this reply to you...  :blush:

Lake of fire is the decond death, is what I read. Any thoughts on how this life is the second death?

cp

It is my opinion that Rev 21:14 is pretty much, universally misunderstood, and then those teach others their misunderstanding... and "voila", here we sit today...  with the LITERAL and carnal understanding of a SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL notation...  :wacko2: :prankster:

Well God has taught me otherwise:

Here is how I see it...

Already leaning toward THIS LIFE as the Lake of FIRE, ...I once read J. Preston Eby's view of this verse, and his words coincided with the way I have come to observe Rev 21:14 -- (btw, to my knowledge, Eby doesn't profess that THIS LIFE is the LOF)

Rev 21:14 -- And death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE, this is the 2nd DEATH...

Most observe (because they have been falsely taught) that this "casting" takes place at the END of human history... as I see it, ...it takes place at it's BEGINNING...  :mshock:

The Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, is NOT subject to Chronology... JESUS is noted to be the ALPHA and the OMEGA... in other words the END ...IS... the BEGINNING...

JESUS ...IS... simulataneously the END and the BEGINNING...

Eby noted the following example, about how the facts of a sentence can be rearranged in chronology, and NOT change the meaning:

(1)  An ISLAND is a body of LAND, surrounded by WATER...
(2)  A body of LAND surrounded by WATER, is an ISLAND...

Let us do this with Rev 21:14:

(1)  Rev 21:14  and Death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE, this is the 2nd Death...

REVERSING the FACTS:

(2)  Rev 21:14  This is the 2nd Death -- Death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE...

I have NOT removed or added anything... but the reversal of the facts gives affords a different perspective... If you "re-reverse" them, you will continue to have that NEW perspective of this verse...

The 2nd DEATH is the death of SINFUL Flesh (vessel of DISHONOR), which is brought into being by the state of man which is "DEAD" in the SPIRIT, and accordingly DISOBEYS the COMMAND of GOD which brings forth SIN and produces the 2nd Death...

JESUS noted LIVING and breathing men, as DEAD -- Matt 8:22 -- these were men which were NOT FOLLOWING Him... for He had just instructed the "scribe" to follow Him... leaving those who were "dead" to bury their "dead"...

...willieH  :happygrin:

[Molly]

That's interesting, WillieH--

Are you saying Adam and Eve were cast into the LOF when they were thrown out of the garden of God?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother WW...  :grin:

Only sinners are cast in LoF. We are all in LoF. LoF comes after judgement. Judgement comes after life.

IMO you are using "time" and "chronological" notations in application to the REVELATION of a TIME-LESS entity, WW...  "after this", after that"...

JESUS said -- John 12:31 ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD...

Shall we BELIEVE what HE SAYS?  Don't know about you, but I ...DO...

NOW is uhh, ...NOW...

NOW is the Day of Salvation, ...NOW is the accepted TIME... 2 Cor 6:2

When is "NOW" as you see it, bro?  :dunno:

That would mean we all had a previous, and bad, life.

:thinking:  Not sure how you come to this conclusion... we ALL SIN in THIS LIFE... no previous life necessary...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :thumbsup:

[Doc]

willieH: Hi cp... :hithere:

Sorry for taking so long to get this reply to you...  :blush:

Lake of fire is the decond death, is what I read. Any thoughts on how this life is the second death?

cp

It is my opinion that Rev 21:14 is pretty much, universally misunderstood, and then those teach others their misunderstanding... and "voila", here we sit today...  with the LITERAL and carnal understanding of a SYMBOLIC and SPIRITUAL notation...  :wacko2: :prankster:

Well God has taught me otherwise:

Here is how I see it...

Already leaning toward THIS LIFE as the Lake of FIRE, ...I once read J. Preston Eby's view of this verse, and his words coincided with the way I have come to observe Rev 21:14 -- (btw, to my knowledge, Eby doesn't profess that THIS LIFE is the LOF)

Rev 21:14 -- And death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE, this is the 2nd DEATH...

Most observe (because they have been falsely taught) that this "casting" takes place at the END of human history... as I see it, ...it takes place at it's BEGINNING...  :mshock:

The Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, is NOT subject to Chronology... JESUS is noted to be the ALPHA and the OMEGA... in other words the END ...IS... the BEGINNING...

JESUS ...IS... simulataneously the END and the BEGINNING...

Eby noted the following example, about how the facts of a sentence can be rearranged in chronology, and NOT change the meaning:

(1)  An ISLAND is a body of LAND, surrounded by WATER...
(2)  A body of LAND surrounded by WATER, is an ISLAND...

Let us do this with Rev 21:14:

(1)  Rev 21:14  and Death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE, this is the 2nd Death...

REVERSING the FACTS:

(2)  Rev 21:14  This is the 2nd Death -- Death and hell [hades] were cast into the Lake of FIRE...

I have NOT removed or added anything... but the reversal of the facts gives affords a different perspective... If you "re-reverse" them, you will continue to have that NEW perspective of this verse...

The 2nd DEATH is the death of SINFUL Flesh (vessel of DISHONOR), which is brought into being by the state of man which is "DEAD" in the SPIRIT, and accordingly DISOBEYS the COMMAND of GOD which brings forth SIN and produces the 2nd Death...

JESUS noted LIVING and breathing men, as DEAD -- Matt 8:22 -- these were men which were NOT FOLLOWING Him... for He had just instructed the "scribe" to follow Him... leaving those who were "dead" to bury their "dead"...

...willieH  :happygrin:

So I have a question for you about this. If the second death (LOF) is death and hades being thrown into the LOF, then why are those part of the 1st resurrection not hurt of it?

Would anyone be hurt of death and hades being thrown into the LOF, regardless of the resurrection they were part of?

I am following your thinking here, but it seems to me to make the statement about not being hurt of the second death for those in the first resurrection redundant. Have I missed something?

[Molly]

If we are in the LOF now with death and hell and the beast and the false prophet and that old dragon, satan, it would explain a lot. :laughing7:

My question is what did Jesus mean when he told the Pharisees they would die in their sins?  Whatever it meant, it didn't sound very good.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


Also, what would this mean?

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

--Rev 21

[jabcat]

I think Willie's view perhaps has an answer for this? If this life is the lake of fire as he suggests, and if satan has already been cast out of heaven and to earth, then satan is already being tormented (tried, tested) in the LoF on this view. In light of this approach, I find the language in Revelation interesting; When satan is cast into the LOF, the beast (carnal nature?) and false prophet are already there. Which would fit quite neatly with the view of this current existence as the LoF.
Around the time of his crucifixion, Christ said that he beheld satan as lightning falling from heaven, and that now was the judgment of this world, and now is the ruler of this world cast out. Could it be that satan was cast down into the torment of the LoF when he lost his authority over death with the crucifixion? Where the beast and the false prophet (already) are?

"...and he that doesn't believe is condemned already..." ?

[Molly]

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

--John 3

[WhiteWings]

Only sinners are cast in LoF. We are all in LoF. LoF comes after judgement. Judgement comes after life.

IMO you are using "time" and "chronological" notations in application to the REVELATION of a TIME-LESS entity, WW...  "after this", after that"...:

Because that is exactly what I read in Revelation.
People are resurrected. After a while the others are resurrected.
Beast and false prophet are already in LoF. Satan not yet.
Then Satan is bound. Later he's released again. Then again later he's finally destroyed.
All the prophesies of the birth or Jesus are set on a timeline.
That's why I always use time references.

JESUS said -- John 12:31 ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD...
Shall we BELIEVE what HE SAYS?  Don't know about you, but I ...DO...

Ignoring the fact that NOW is also a time reference it can also be read that our time on earth is the White Throne Judgement and LoF comes after that.
If someone reads a verse diffrently than you do doesn't automaticly mean they reject that verse....

NOW is uhh, ...NOW...
NOW is the Day of Salvation, ...NOW is the accepted TIME... 2 Cor 6:2
When is "NOW" as you see it, bro?  :dunno:

Now is a point in time.
Without Jesus no salvation. When Jesus 'was now' salvation became a fact. But that doesn't automaticly mean LoF has started. The fact is we will be saved. If that saving takes place the next second or in 1 billion years is another thing.

That would mean we all had a previous, and bad, life.

:thinking:  Not sure how you come to this conclusion... we ALL SIN in THIS LIFE... no previous life necessary...  :dontknow:

[/quote]
I never said we don't sin in this life. In fact I wrote in thi s thread:

Looking at Hitler and Stalin I don't really have the impression they died purified with a "love your neighbor" mindset....

Isn't LoF about purifying people? Making the 'clean enough' to enter heaven.
No dogs, liers, adulters, thiefs, murders, etc, etc
If this life is LoF, does it mean our death is our exit point of LoF?
If yes do we all die as saints?
No one that dies is a thief? A murder? Some even die during performing the act of adultary.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...  :friendstu:

That's interesting, WillieH--

Are you saying Adam and Eve were cast into the LOF when they were thrown out of the garden of God?

Most view the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, as the Last book of the Bible, and a prophecy of the END of TIME, and of this world...

When, from its beginning... it states that this entity is the BEGINNING -- and -- the END...  and that it REVEALS JESUS who is BOTH...  The "end" IS the "beginning" and the "beginning" IS the "end"... of what?

JESUS -- when HE is REVEALED, ...is the "END" of SIN... He is also the "BEGINNING" of RIGHTEOUSNESS for those who became IMMERSED in it... all due to their involvement in TIME and EVIL...

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST is NOT a book of PROPHECY... it is the UNVEILING of the "beginningless, and "endless" WORD of GOD...

First -- I don't see that GOD "threw" them out of the Garden... they were SENT forth FROM it...

Second -- I guess it depends on what one considers "the GARDEN"...  :laughing7:

The LAKE of FIRE is part of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST... and no matter how or when He is REVEALED to anyone, the LAKE of FIRE is part of that REVELATION.  :dontknow:

I believe that "satan" (adversity) was PART of the makeup of Adam & Eve... and it is that ADVERSITY ...IN THEM... which enabled them to DISOBEY the COMMAND of GOD... This DISOBEDIENCE took place IN the GARDEN...

PART of the GARDEN is the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... it shall ALWAYS be part of the GARDEN...

The Creation account (which is quite helpful in understanding "Revelation"), notes that it (the Creation) was VERY GOOD, but NOT PERFECT... Why not?

For the ALPHA of man is not PERFECT [which means COMPLETE] until the OMEGA of man is found present!  Once ALL MEN have come forth... then shall the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, which IS the Alpha of them and the Omega of them, ...BE...

GOD is yet in the process of MAKING everything... MAN is a COMPLETE entity which, concerning TIME is yet INCOMPLETE.  For ALL MEN have yet to appear IN TIME...  So man is found, at this point, and until the final human to be born, ...INCOMPLETE.

The Lake of FIRE is JESUS CHRIST... ALL THINGS are IN HIM... all things are made BY HIM... and FOR HIM -- Col 1:16-17  "ALL things" includes the LOF...

He is YET "making" ALL THINGS... Has everything been "made" that are considered part of creation?  NO.   Everyday MEN (more of the COMPLETE TOTAL of MANKIND) are born... Everyday the Creation brings forth NEW LIFE in ALL SPECIES...

What is the GARDEN?  This is a grand question, probably worthy of a NEW THREAD...  :HeartThrob:

I believe the GARDEN to be the  :HeartThrob: ...HEART of GOD, where GOD and His Children, DWELL together... It is not geographical... it is SPIRITUAL... It is not physical, as the physical is limited, it is a "place" where LOVE IS -- lives and emerges.  Where the mutual, the harmonious, the prosperous, and ONENESS bring into its occupants, ..."ALL" which is FOREVER...

It is not measured by weight, or height or depth or breadth, for it exceeds KNOWLEDGE...

There are 2 trees in the MIDST of the Garden... one (tree of the knowledge of G & E) contains KNOWLEDGE the other (tree of LIFE) is more than KNOWLEDGE, passing it, exceedingly exceeding it -- Eph 3:18-19  BOTH are found in the MIDST of the HEART of YHVH

LOVE is the Garden... and the flowers which grow IN IT... never perish... for they dwell in PERFECTION, without ADVERSITY...  we, are those flowers sister M... which are SENT FORTH, temporarily in this measured, limited space called TIME... to gain the COMPLETE Revelation of JESUS CHRIST which contains the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, but ...EXCEEDS it... and which is about doing the things of LOVE, and which does NOT...

DO the things of KNOWLEDGE -- :clock: -- TIME -- :eek:

but DOES DO, the things of LOVE -- :HeartThrob: -- FOREVER --  :myahoo:

...willieH

[Beloved Servant]

"GOD is yet in the process of MAKING everything... MAN is a COMPLETE entity which, concerning TIME is yet INCOMPLETE.  For ALL MEN have yet to appear IN TIME...  So man is found, at this point, and until the final human to be born, ...INCOMPLETE."

Hi WillieH, I found your above quote fascinating. ( I don't know how to use the quote feature)
Could you elaborate on that.
There is a finite number of humans to be born?
And when that final one is born, something will happen?
Asking, in part, because I saw a movie with that plot a long time ago with Demi Moore.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

Only sinners are cast in LoF. We are all in LoF. LoF comes after judgement. Judgement comes after life.

IMO you are using "time" and "chronological" notations in application to the REVELATION of a TIME-LESS entity, WW...  "after this", after that"...:

Because that is exactly what I read in Revelation.
People are resurrected. After a while the others are resurrected.
Beast and false prophet are already in LoF. Satan not yet.
Then Satan is bound. Later he's released again. Then again later he's finally destroyed.

It is okay to read what "you read" in this book WW... I do not demean you for your "understanding"... and as is the case in a journey... different things are gained along the way.  That is what DISCUSSION is all about... Each of us sharing with the others, that which we have "gained"...

You are welcome to disagree with my findings, and it is not my agenda to change you with them... If change occurs in your view... it shall be GOD which makes and ordains that change, and if no change occurs, it is also GOD which keeps you right where you are...  :cloud9:

Your view is orthodox... and really does not follow reason... Why would GOD "chain" up "satan" only to let "him" loose to continue decieving?

Your view is the Orthodox and THEOLOGICAL vision of the "Millennium" (which is a non-biblical term), a "theologically" gathered assumption...  And which traverses LOGIC in its presentation...  I shall not engage that arguement here, I have already commented upon it in the "1000 years" thread, and find no need to repeat myself here... If you wish to know my views on it look in the other thread...  :thumbsup:

All the prophesies of the birth or Jesus are set on a timeline.
That's why I always use time references.

What is Prophecy WW?  Is not "prophecy" the REVELATION of what is to BE... and if so, then ALREADY IS?  For "prophecy" is nothing but the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD, revealed to men, and which COMES TO PASS in the doings of men, without regard to them or their desires to "do" otherwise...

The "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" is a book which proposes to REVEAL an entity which is NOT BOUND by TIME, so how can TIME be applied to HIM?  He pre-existed TIME and was relevent WITHOUT it... why is TIME therefore needful or relevant in His REVEALING?  It is NOT... unless YOU decide to attach it to Him... In that case He is not being REVEALED... YOU are proposing Him using "TIME" to do so...

EXAMPLE:  If visible things are revealed by SIGHT, shall we use EARS to discover those things?  Will our EARS establish their "visibility"?  :laughing7:

JESUS said -- John 12:31 ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD...
Shall we BELIEVE what HE SAYS?  Don't know about you, but I ...DO...

Ignoring the fact that NOW is also a time reference it can also be read that our time on earth is the White Throne Judgement and LoF comes after that.

I beg to differ that NOW is a time reference... if so "WHEN" is NOW?

As far as "chronology" (LOF comes "after")... you are welcome to your belief, but I see it as astray for "chronology" is NOT something that can be attached to CHRIST...

He is the SAME, yesterday today, and forever... which means that "chronologically" speaking... there is no "chronology" in Him -- Heb 13:8

CHRONOLOGY represents CHANGE... yesterday was NOT today... tomorrow is NOT yesterday, all are CHRONOLOGICAL notations of the movement and CHANGE which is found IN TIME...

The FIRST (is chronological term) is NOT the LAST (which is also a chronological term), neither is FIRST the SAME as the LAST...  They are "chonologically" speaking in OPPOSITION to each other!  They do NOT stand in the SAME PLACE, they do NOT occur in the SAME PROGRESSION, etc.

So how can you employ CHRONOLOGY to the REVELATION a being which is BOTH and yet has NEITHER beginning OR end?

If someone reads a verse diffrently than you do doesn't automaticly mean they reject that verse....

Did I say you reject any verses?  I did NOT.

NOW is uhh, ...NOW...
NOW is the Day of Salvation, ...NOW is the accepted TIME... 2 Cor 6:2
When is "NOW" as you see it, bro?  :dunno:

Now is a point in time.

Oh yeah?  When was NOW?  What point?  Is not "NOW" -- ALL POINTS in time?  If so, then TIME is limited by NOW, rather than the opposite...

NOW is the representation and REALITY of the ETERNAL, occuring within the realm of the FINITE -- which is TIME.

WHEN did NOW begin WW?  Or WHEN shall it END?

Without Jesus no salvation. When Jesus 'was now' salvation became a fact. But that doesn't automaticly mean LoF has started. The fact is we will be saved. If that saving takes place the next second or in 1 billion years is another thing.

You continue to endeavor to "TIE" CHRIST to TIME... and that does not work for He is -- OUTSIDE (before) and INSIDE (during) time and then again OUTSIDE it (exceeding it past the LAST DAY)...

His DEATH occured manifest IN TIME... however He was SLAIN before TIME began -- Rev 13:8

That He was eventually was manifest in TIME, was temporal... that He IS before, during and after it, is ETERNAL...  Time is IRRELEVANT to what and who He IS...

That would mean we all had a previous, and bad, life.

:thinking:  Not sure how you come to this conclusion... we ALL SIN in THIS LIFE... no previous life necessary...  :dontknow:

I never said we don't sin in this life. In fact I wrote in this thread:

Looking at Hitler and Stalin I don't really have the impression they died purified with a "love your neighbor" mindset....

Isn't LoF about purifying people? Making the 'clean enough' to enter heaven.
No dogs, liers, adulters, thiefs, murders, etc, etc
If this life is LoF, does it mean our death is our exit point of LoF?

I was pointing out dear brother, that SINNERS are the residents of the LOF... and that ALL have SINNED...

The LAKE of FIRE is part of the REVEALING of LOVE which is JESUS CHRIST... not a chamber of HORROR and TORMENT...

There is NO TORMENT in LOVE, nor is there FEAR, for LOVE casts OUT torment -- 1 John 4:18

As I said before, you are welcome to take upon yourself FEAR as you search for GOD, that is your decision...

Just know that I consider that it is my mission to OPPOSE and DEFEAT such teaching... without demeaning you for your own conclusions...

If yes do we all die as saints?

We are finished with SIN upon our exit... We ALL give account before GOD... When we rise, it is either IN the clothing of CHRIST or IN the nakedness SHAME -- Rev 3:18

The tears dried later, are those of the naked... but note they are DRIED, never to appear again -- Rev 21:4

Those rising in the Glory of CHRIST, shall not be CRYING bro... but those who are HURT (by the shame of nakedness), shall find remorse... and tears.

No one that dies is a thief? A murder? Some even die during performing the act of adultary

So what is your point?  That men battle SIN until their last breath surprises you?

When CHRIST instructed others to FORGIVE enemies, and LOVE them, and BLESS them... do you percieve Him to "BLAST FURNACE" His?  :mshock:

What kind of GRAND HYPOCRISY would that display?  Learn, bro... that GOD loves us, and that we are HARDENED or FIND MERCY at HIS call, not ours... John 6:44 -- Rom 9:18 -- Jer 18:4

If you have found His call to you to follow, then it is HIS CALL is it not?  And if others do not HEAR His Call, does that display to you that He provided EARS for them to hear?

This WHOLE THING is HIS THING brother WW... you and I are just very fortunate to have been blessed with LIFE at HIS CHOOSING... And were born when, where, to whom, etc... by HIS CALL, not ours...

If HITLER would've been Billy Graham's son, would he have been the tyrant he became?  It was GOD's call that HITLER be HITLER, and that Franklin Graham be Franklin Graham...

:Peace:

...willieH   :grin: :bigGrin: :Sparkletooth: :winkgrin: :happygrin: :laughing7: :icon_king: :icon_queen: :icon_flower: :icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor: :happy3: :sigh: :cloud9:

[claypot]

"GOD is yet in the process of MAKING everything... MAN is a COMPLETE entity which, concerning TIME is yet INCOMPLETE.  For ALL MEN have yet to appear IN TIME...  So man is found, at this point, and until the final human to be born, ...INCOMPLETE."

Hi WillieH, I found your above quote fascinating. ( I don't know how to use the quote feature)
Could you elaborate on that.
There is a finite number of humans to be born?
And when that final one is born, something will happen?
Asking, in part, because I saw a movie with that plot a long time ago with Demi Moore.

That movie you saw BServ was The Seventh Sign. I liked it much. Weird but I liked it.

cp

[Beloved Servant]

Thanks Cp,
Glad someone else saw it too.
When I saw that on WillieH's post, I was like, huh?what?
I saw that movie!
I know that Hollywood, all the time, uses scripture or parts of it to make money.
I did not know, though, that it was in the Bible.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Beloved... :hithere:

"GOD is yet in the process of MAKING everything... MAN is a COMPLETE entity which, concerning TIME is yet INCOMPLETE.  For ALL MEN have yet to appear IN TIME...  So man is found, at this point, and until the final human to be born, ...INCOMPLETE."

Hi WillieH, I found your above quote fascinating. ( I don't know how to use the quote feature)
Could you elaborate on that.
There is a finite number of humans to be born?

LOGIC dictates that as long as MEN (mankind) are born, then the TOTAL of MANKIND is yet INCOMPLETE.

There are PERFECT numbers in Scripture such as 3, 7 & 12 -- I'm sure the COMPLETE number of MAN is a PERFECT number... do not have a clue as to what it might be other than INNUMERABLE... Heb 11:12 -- compared to the number of STARS in the SKY... which compose a number which only GOD can understand...

This WILL end somewhere, He WILL appear again, ...for the LAST TRUMP shall sound...

And when that final one is born, something will happen?
Asking, in part, because I saw a movie with that plot a long time ago with Demi Moore.

Don't know everything, especially ...when or how... GOD knows...

GOD began CREATION and because He is PERFECT, MAN, made in His IMAGE, when it is COMPLETE shall bear the mark of His COMPLETE PERFECTION...

He WILL make an end to SIN.. and there WILL BE a LAST DAY --  John 6:44, 54 -- 12:48

What movie? :dunno:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[Beloved Servant]

Thanks WillieH,
Claypot remembered, it's called the "Seventh Sign."
Thanks also for the instructions.

[Beloved Servant]

So, if Satan is the carnal mind,
what were the demons that Jesus drove into the swine, who then drowned?

[willieH]

So, if Satan is the carnal mind,
what were the demons that Jesus drove into the swine, who then drowned?

"satan" is a Hebrew word that indicates ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY... It is no more a "being" than are the English words I just wrote...

It IS a principality which is invested in the fleshly influenced mind of men, and which prompts temptation -- James 1:14

As far as the pigs are concerned... ADVERSITY is found Naturally at work within the animal kingdom and is relevant to MAN as evidenced by humans being attacked by bears, lions, sharks, etc... let alone within their own communities and species...

Men are attacked by animals because they can sense FEAR... there are unseen ADVERSE powers negatively at work between man and the creation over which he once had dominion...

As JESUS demanded these adversities to leave the "demoniac"... the adversities became relevant in the pigs... at the power of CHRIST... which only displayed that adversity within us that drives us to our death, will drive another creature to its death as well...

Animals are capable of doing erratic things without prompting... Watch a cat or dog chases its tail...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :grin:

[Beloved Servant]

Thanks WillieH!

[WhiteWings]

Thanks for you answer Willie.
I was typing my answer but deleted it because as usual we make zero progress when 'chatting' on this forum.
So this is the end for me. Oops another time reference... :winkgrin:

[Doc]

Hey, Willie; I just wanted to make sure that you saw my question in post #80. I think it got lost in the flurry of other posts.

[chuckt]

So, if Satan is the carnal mind,
what were the demons that Jesus drove into the swine, who then drowned?

"satan" is a Hebrew word that indicates ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY... It is no more a "being" than are the English words I just wrote...

It IS a principality which is invested in the fleshly influenced mind of men, and which prompts temptation -- James 1:14

As far as the pigs are concerned... ADVERSITY is found Naturally at work within the animal kingdom and is relevant to MAN as evidenced by humans being attacked by bears, lions, sharks, etc... let alone within their own communities and species...

Men are attacked by animals because they can sense FEAR... there are unseen ADVERSE powers negatively at work between man and the creation over which he once had dominion...

As JESUS demanded these adversities to leave the "demoniac"... the adversities became relevant in the pigs... at the power of CHRIST... which only displayed that adversity within us that drives us to our death, will drive another creature to its death as well...

Animals are capable of doing erratic things without prompting... Watch a cat or dog chases its tail...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :grin:

Greetings,

this is all good and well, but when  teaching these things and one asks how did these adversities speak, what would you say?

Mar 5:9 Then He asked him, "What [is] your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name [is] Legion; for we are many." 

thanks
euty

[claypot]

So, if Satan is the carnal mind,
what were the demons that Jesus drove into the swine, who then drowned?

"satan" is a Hebrew word that indicates ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY... It is no more a "being" than are the English words I just wrote...

It IS a principality which is invested in the fleshly influenced mind of men, and which prompts temptation -- James 1:14

As far as the pigs are concerned... ADVERSITY is found Naturally at work within the animal kingdom and is relevant to MAN as evidenced by humans being attacked by bears, lions, sharks, etc... let alone within their own communities and species...

Men are attacked by animals because they can sense FEAR... there are unseen ADVERSE powers negatively at work between man and the creation over which he once had dominion...

As JESUS demanded these adversities to leave the "demoniac"... the adversities became relevant in the pigs... at the power of CHRIST... which only displayed that adversity within us that drives us to our death, will drive another creature to its death as well...

Animals are capable of doing erratic things without prompting... Watch a cat or dog chases its tail...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :grin:

Greetings,

this is all good and well, but when  teaching these things and one asks how did these adversities speak, what would you say?

Mar 5:9 Then He asked him, "What [is] your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name [is] Legion; for we are many." 

thanks
euty

That's a confusing question no matter what position you take.

cp

[Beloved Servant]

Yea CP,
I'd like to know too.