Fitted For Destruction

[FineLinen]

Romans 9:22

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction.

Fitted=katartivzw

Katartivzw=

To render or to fit.

To make sound or complete.

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair what has been broken or rent.

To put in order.

To arrange. To adjust.

To fit or frame for one's self.

To strengthen, to perfect, to complete.

To make one what he aught to be.

Dr. Marvin Vincent

Fitted= kathrtismena=

Literally: adjusted or mended.

ei de qelwn o qeoV endeixasqai thn orghn kai gnwrisai to dunaton autou hnegken en pollh makroqumia skeuh orghV kathrtismena eiV apwleian

[FineLinen]

Everlasting Destruction

HERE

Everlasting destruction (oleqron aiwnion).

The phrase nowhere else in N.T. In LXX, 4 Macc. x. 15. Rev. properly, eternal destruction. It is to be carefully noted that eternal and everlasting are not synonymous. See additional note at the end of this chapter.

From the presence (apo proswpou). Or face. Apo from has simply the sense of separation. Not from the time of the Lord's appearing, nor by reason of the glory of his presence. Proswpon is variously translated in A.V. Mostly face: also presence, Acts iii. 13, 19; v. 41: person, Matthew xxii. 16; Luke xx. 21; Gal. ii. 6: appearance, 2 Cor. v. 12; x. 1; fashion, Jas. i. 11. The formula ajpo proswpou or tou proswpou occurs Acts iii. 19; v. 41; vii. 45; Apoc. vi. 16; xii. 14; xx. 11. In LXX, Gen. iii. 8; iv. 14, 16; Exod. xiv. 25, and frequently.

Glory of his power (doxhv thv iscuov autou). For glory see on 1 Thessalonians ii. 12. Iscuv power, not often in Paul. It is indwelling power put forth or embodied, either aggressively or as an obstacle to resistance: physical power organized or working under individual direction. An army and a fortress are both ijscurov. The power inhering in the magistrate, which is put forth in laws or judicial decisions, is ijscuv, and makes the edicts ijscura valid and hard to resist. Dunamiv is the indwelling power which comes to manifestation in ijscuv The precise phrase used here does not appear elsewhere in N.T. In LXX, Isa. ii. 10, 19, 21. The power (dunamiv) and glory of God are associated in Matthew xxiv. 30; Mark xiii. 26; Luke xxi. 27; Apoc. iv. 11; xix. 1. Comp. kratov thv doxhv aujtou strength of his glory, Col. i. 11.

10. To be glorified (endoxasqhnai). Only here and ver. 12 in N.T. Repeatedly in LXX. See Exod. xiv. 4, 17; Isa. xlv. 26. oClass.

11. Wherefore (eiv o). Better, to which end. Comp. Col. i. 29. The end is, "that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, " ver. 5. The same thought is continued in ver. 11.

Count - worthy (axiwsh). Comp. 1 Tim. v. 17; Heb. iii. 3; x. 29. Your calling (thv klhsewv). Including both the act and the end of the Christian calling. Comp. Philip. iii. 14; 1 Thess. ii. 12; Eph. iv. 1.

All the good pleasure of his goodness (pasan eudokian agaqwsunhv). Wrong. Paul does not mean all the goodness which God ts pleased to bestow, but the delight of the Thessalonians in goodness. He prays that God may perfect their pleasure in goodness. So Weizsacker, die Freude an allem Guten. The Rev. desire for eujdokian is infelicitous, and lacks support. Agaqwsunh goodness (P. see on Rom. iii. 19) is never predicated of God in N.T. In LXX, see Neh. ix. 25, 35. Eudokia good pleasure, delight, is a purely Biblical word. As related to one's self, it means contentment, satisfaction: see Sir. xxix. 23; Ps. of Sol. iii. 4; xvi. 12. As related to others, good will, benevolence. Luke x. 21, Eph. i. 5, 9; Philip. i. 15; ii. 13; Ps. of Sol. viii. 39.

12. The name (to onoma). In no case where it is joined with Jesus, or Christ, or Lord Jesus, does it mean the title or dignity. 33 Paul follows O.T. usage, according to which the name of the Lord is often used for all that the name covers; so that the name of the Lord = the Lord himself.

ADDITIONAL NOTE ON oleqron aijwnion eternal destruction, 2 TH. i. 9.

Aiwn transliterated eon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri oujranou, i. 9, 15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of each one's life is called the eon of each one." Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aiwn) is said to leave him or to consume away (Il. v. 685; Od. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenniam; the mytho-logical period before the beginnings of history. The word has not "a stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many eons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one eon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the eon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world representing a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt. xii. 32; xiii. 40, 49; Luke i. 70; 1 Corinthians i. 20; ii. 6; Eph. i. 21. Similarly oiJ aijwnev the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor. ii. 7; x. 11; Heb. i. 2; ix. 26; xi. 3.

The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to ajei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, ajei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. i. 12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on Iying to all eternity. See also Acts vii. 51; 2 Cor. iv. 11; vi. 10; Heb. iii. 10; 1. Peter iii. 15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject's life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. "The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum."

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of eons.

A series of such eons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. See Eph. iii. 11. Paul contemplates eons before and after the Chuistian era. Eph. i. 21; ii. 7; iii. 9, 21; 1 Corinthians x. 11; comp. Heb. ix. 26.

He includes the series of eons in one great eon, oJ aijwn twn aijwnwn the eon of the eons (Eph. iii. 21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describes the throne of God as enduring unto the eon of the eons (Heb. i. 8).

The plural is also used, eons of the eons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. xvi. 27; Gal. i. 5; Philip. iv. 20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aijwniov in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, ajidiov, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aiwniov means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eijv ton aijwna, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod. xxi. 6; xxix. 9; xxxii. 13; Josh. xiv. 9; 1 Sam. viii. 13; Lev. xxv. 46; Deut. xv. 17; 1 Chronicles xxviii. 4. See also Matt. xxi. 19; John xiii. 8; 1 Cor. viii. 13. The same is true of aijwniov. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. xlviii. 4; Numbers x. 8; xv. 15; Prov. xxii. 28; Jon. ii. 6; Hab. iii. 6; Isa. lxi. 17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aijwniov everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aijwniov,. it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer than men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God's relations to time. God's eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive eons fronn a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

[Livelystone]

Cliff notes?

Blessings

Doug

[Tim B]

Everlasting Destruction

HERE

Everlasting destruction (oleqron aiwnion).[/b]

The phrase nowhere else in N.T. In LXX, 4 Macc. x. 15. Rev. properly, eternal destruction. It is to be carefully noted that eternal and everlasting are not synonymous. See additional note at the end of this chapter.

From the presence (apo proswpou). Or face. Apo from has simply the sense of separation. Not from the time of the Lord's appearing, nor by reason of the glory of his presence. Proswpon is variously translated in A.V. Mostly face: also presence, Acts iii. 13, 19; v. 41: person, Matthew xxii. 16; Luke xx. 21; Gal. ii. 6: appearance, 2 Cor. v. 12; x. 1; fashion, Jas. i. 11. The formula ajpo proswpou or tou proswpou occurs Acts iii. 19; v. 41; vii. 45; Apoc. vi. 16; xii. 14; xx. 11. In LXX, Gen. iii. 8; iv. 14, 16; Exod. xiv. 25, and frequently.

Glory of his power (doxhv thv iscuov autou). For glory see on 1 Thessalonians ii. 12. Iscuv power, not often in Paul. It is indwelling power put forth or embodied, either aggressively or as an obstacle to resistance: physical power organized or working under individual direction. An army and a fortress are both ijscurov. The power inhering in the magistrate, which is put forth in laws or judicial decisions, is ijscuv, and makes the edicts ijscura valid and hard to resist. Dunamiv is the indwelling power which comes to manifestation in ijscuv The precise phrase used here does not appear elsewhere in N.T. In LXX, Isa. ii. 10, 19, 21. The power (dunamiv) and glory of God are associated in Matthew xxiv. 30; Mark xiii. 26; Luke xxi. 27; Apoc. iv. 11; xix. 1. Comp. kratov thv doxhv aujtou strength of his glory, Col. i. 11.

10. To be glorified (endoxasqhnai). Only here and ver. 12 in N.T. Repeatedly in LXX. See Exod. xiv. 4, 17; Isa. xlv. 26. oClass.

11. Wherefore (eiv o). Better, to which end. Comp. Col. i. 29. The end is, "that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, " ver. 5. The same thought is continued in ver. 11.

Count - worthy (axiwsh). Comp. 1 Tim. v. 17; Heb. iii. 3; x. 29. Your calling (thv klhsewv). Including both the act and the end of the Christian calling. Comp. Philip. iii. 14; 1 Thess. ii. 12; Eph. iv. 1.

All the good pleasure of his goodness (pasan eudokian agaqwsunhv). Wrong. Paul does not mean all the goodness which God ts pleased to bestow, but the delight of the Thessalonians in goodness. He prays that God may perfect their pleasure in goodness. So Weizsacker, die Freude an allem Guten. The Rev. desire for eujdokian is infelicitous, and lacks support. Agaqwsunh goodness (P. see on Rom. iii. 19) is never predicated of God in N.T. In LXX, see Neh. ix. 25, 35. Eudokia good pleasure, delight, is a purely Biblical word. As related to one's self, it means contentment, satisfaction: see Sir. xxix. 23; Ps. of Sol. iii. 4; xvi. 12. As related to others, good will, benevolence. Luke x. 21, Eph. i. 5, 9; Philip. i. 15; ii. 13; Ps. of Sol. viii. 39.

12. The name (to onoma). In no case where it is joined with Jesus, or Christ, or Lord Jesus, does it mean the title or dignity. 33 Paul follows O.T. usage, according to which the name of the Lord is often used for all that the name covers; so that the name of the Lord = the Lord himself.

ADDITIONAL NOTE ON oleqron aijwnion eternal destruction, 2 TH. i. 9.

Aiwn transliterated eon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri oujranou, i. 9, 15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of each one's life is called the eon of each one." Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aiwn) is said to leave him or to consume away (Il. v. 685; Od. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenniam; the mytho-logical period before the beginnings of history. The word has not "a stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many eons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one eon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the eon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world representing a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt. xii. 32; xiii. 40, 49; Luke i. 70; 1 Corinthians i. 20; ii. 6; Eph. i. 21. Similarly oiJ aijwnev the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor. ii. 7; x. 11; Heb. i. 2; ix. 26; xi. 3.

The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to ajei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, ajei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. i. 12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on Iying to all eternity. See also Acts vii. 51; 2 Cor. iv. 11; vi. 10; Heb. iii. 10; 1. Peter iii. 15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject's life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. "The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum."

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of eons.

A series of such eons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. See Eph. iii. 11. Paul contemplates eons before and after the Chuistian era. Eph. i. 21; ii. 7; iii. 9, 21; 1 Corinthians x. 11; comp. Heb. ix. 26.

He includes the series of eons in one great eon, oJ aijwn twn aijwnwn the eon of the eons (Eph. iii. 21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describes the throne of God as enduring unto the eon of the eons (Heb. i. 8).

The plural is also used, eons of the eons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. xvi. 27; Gal. i. 5; Philip. iv. 20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aijwniov in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.[/color]

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, ajidiov, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aiwniov means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eijv ton aijwna, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod. xxi. 6; xxix. 9; xxxii. 13; Josh. xiv. 9; 1 Sam. viii. 13; Lev. xxv. 46; Deut. xv. 17; 1 Chronicles xxviii. 4. See also Matt. xxi. 19; John xiii. 8; 1 Cor. viii. 13. The same is true of aijwniov. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. xlviii. 4; Numbers x. 8; xv. 15; Prov. xxii. 28; Jon. ii. 6; Hab. iii. 6; Isa. lxi. 17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aijwniov everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aijwniov,. it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer than men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God's relations to time. God's eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive eons fronn a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

So, um, what's the overall picture here? I very much thank you for your willingness to share all this information with us, but I find it a bit confusing. If you could home in on the exact underlying idea, that'd be awesome.  :bigGrin:

God bless ya! You're awesome!

[FineLinen]

Tim B. There are over twenty distinct words for destruction in the Old Covenant. In a number of them, destruction is linked with new life, transformation and change. What are you failing to see?

LINK

"God has now revealed to us His mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill His own great pleasure. And this is the plan. At the right time He will bring everything together under the authority of Christ-everything in heaven and on earth. Furthermore, because we are united with Christ we have received an inheritance from God, for He chose us in advance, and He makes all things work out according to His plan."

Everything= ta pavnte= the all

[Tim B]

Tim B. There are over twenty distinct words for destruction in the Old Covenant. In a number of them, destruction is linked with new life, transformation and change. What are you failing to see?

LINK

"God has now revealed to us His mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill His own great pleasure. And this is the plan. At the right time He will bring everything together under the authority of Christ-everything in heaven and on earth. Furthermore, because we are united with Christ we have received an inheritance from God, for He chose us in advance, and He makes all things work out according to His plan."

Everything= ta pavnte= the all

Ah, okay. Is that the sense in which destruction is used in Romans 9:22 which you quoted in the original post? I also didn't see "filled" in the quote either, so I was wondering where it was used in the verse. I figured it was in the place of the bolded text below. Is that correct?

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction."

[FineLinen]

Apollumi, as you most assuredly know, is the word linked with olethros destruction, and in fact rests on it. In either case it can be demonstrated that both have salvation encapsulated within the operation. In the case of the individual turned over to Satan, (no indication he was a believer, but surely an attendee in Corinth), for olethros destruction, salvation is most assuredly in the final chapter, and his spirit being "saved" in the day of the Lord. Loss? Definitely, but salvation of his spirit.

Apollumi is rooted in olethros and is used in numerous passages of the New Covenant: again salvation is linked with this word. Let us listen carefully to the Master of the Reconciliation.....

"If you save your life, you will apollumi it. But if you apollumi your life for My sake you will save it. "

Yes indeed, the lost coin, the lost sheep, are closely linked with the loss of our life in the Master's Kingdom.

The Father Who Lost Two Sons -R.F. Capon-

This is about what's normally called The Parable of the Prodigal Son. That's only one of the two sons in the parable, the younger boy. The older boy is the one—the other son—who is lost. And the point about changing the name of the parable is that the parables are almost always misnamed.

The Parable of the Lost Sheep is not about the lost sheep.

All the sheep ever did was get lost. The parable is about the passion of the shepherd who lost the sheep to find the sheep. His passion to find is what drives the parable; and consequently it isn't the Prodigal's lostness, wasting all his money on wine, women and song in the far country; and it isn't the elder brother's grousing and complaining and score keeping that stands against him. What counts in the parable is the father's unceasing desire to find the sons he lost—both of them—and to raise both of them up from the dead.

Two Sons: One Get's The Money, The Other Gets The Farm

The story, of course, you know. The story begins with the father having two sons and the youngest son comes to the father and says, "Father, divide the inheritance between me and my brother." What he's in effect saying is, "Dear Dad, drop dead now, legally. Put your will into effect and just retire out of the whole business of being anything to anybody and let us have what is coming to us." So the youngest son gets the money and the older brother gets the farm. And off the younger brother goes. What he does, of course, is he spends it all—blows it all—on wild living. When he finally is in want and working, slopping hogs for a farmer and wishing that he could eat what he's feeding the pigs, he can't stand it. When he finally comes to himself he says, "You know, I've got to do something. How many hired servants of my father's are there who have bread enough to spare and I'm perishing here with hunger? I know what I'm going to do."

One More Dumb Plan

Almost every preacher makes this the boy's repentance. It's not his repentance. This is just one more dumb plan for his life. He says, "I will go to my father and I will say, 'Father, I've sinned against heaven and before you.'" That's true. He got that one right. "And I'm no longer worthy to be called your son." Score two. He gets that one right. But the next thing he says is dead wrong. He says, "Make me one of your hired servants." He knows—he thinks he knows—he can't go back as a dead son, and therefore he says, "I will now go back as somebody who can earn my father's favor again. I will be a good worker or whatever." This is not a real repentance, it's just a plan for a life. What it is, is enough to get him started going home, and consequently when he goes home, what happens next is an absolutely fascinating kind of thing.

Continued Below

http://www.30goodminutes.org/csec/sermon/capon_4414.htm

[eaglesway]

Hell is in heaven in the nail hole in Jesus hand. Man, that is some really awesome imagery. The link in the above post is worth checking out, Thanks FL

[sheila]

  the LOF was PREPARED for satan and his...destruction. also the corruptible image in all mankind has been fitted for destruction

   sin entered = death  spiritual death[no longer bearing image of incorruptible LIFE] followed by the full wages of sin=death of corruptible flesh

  Now, the image/son of the incorruptible /makes His appearance....and freely gives the free gift of the incorruptible

   I KILL AND I MAKE ALIVE

   Death where is your sting..I shall be thy plagues!

[Nathan]

Apollumi, as you most assuredly know, is the word linked with olethros destruction, and in fact rests on it. In either case it can be demonstrated that both have salvation encapsulated within the operation. In the case of the individual turned over to Satan, (no indication he was a believer, but surely an attendee in Corinth), for olethros destruction, salvation is most assuredly in the final chapter, and his spirit being "saved" in the day of the Lord. Loss? Definitely, but salvation of his spirit.

Apollumi is rooted in olethros and is used in numerous passages of the New Covenant: again salvation is linked with this word. Let us listen carefully to the Master of the Reconciliation.....

"If you save your life, you will apollumi it. But if you apollumi your life for My sake you will save it. "

Yes indeed, the lost coin, the lost sheep, are closely linked with the loss of our life in the Master's Kingdom.

The Father Who Lost Two Sons -R.F. Capon-

This is about what's normally called The Parable of the Prodigal Son. That's only one of the two sons in the parable, the younger boy. The older boy is the one—the other son—who is lost. And the point about changing the name of the parable is that the parables are almost always misnamed.

The Parable of the Lost Sheep is not about the lost sheep.

All the sheep ever did was get lost. The parable is about the passion of the shepherd who lost the sheep to find the sheep. His passion to find is what drives the parable; and consequently it isn't the Prodigal's lostness, wasting all his money on wine, women and song in the far country; and it isn't the elder brother's grousing and complaining and score keeping that stands against him. What counts in the parable is the father's unceasing desire to find the sons he lost—both of them—and to raise both of them up from the dead.

Two Sons: One Get's The Money, The Other Gets The Farm

The story, of course, you know. The story begins with the father having two sons and the youngest son comes to the father and says, "Father, divide the inheritance between me and my brother." What he's in effect saying is, "Dear Dad, drop dead now, legally. Put your will into effect and just retire out of the whole business of being anything to anybody and let us have what is coming to us." So the youngest son gets the money and the older brother gets the farm. And off the younger brother goes. What he does, of course, is he spends it all—blows it all—on wild living. When he finally is in want and working, slopping hogs for a farmer and wishing that he could eat what he's feeding the pigs, he can't stand it. When he finally comes to himself he says, "You know, I've got to do something. How many hired servants of my father's are there who have bread enough to spare and I'm perishing here with hunger? I know what I'm going to do."

One More Dumb Plan

Almost every preacher makes this the boy's repentance. It's not his repentance. This is just one more dumb plan for his life. He says, "I will go to my father and I will say, 'Father, I've sinned against heaven and before you.'" That's true. He got that one right. "And I'm no longer worthy to be called your son." Score two. He gets that one right. But the next thing he says is dead wrong. He says, "Make me one of your hired servants." He knows—he thinks he knows—he can't go back as a dead son, and therefore he says, "I will now go back as somebody who can earn my father's favor again. I will be a good worker or whatever." This is not a real repentance, it's just a plan for a life. What it is, is enough to get him started going home, and consequently when he goes home, what happens next is an absolutely fascinating kind of thing.

Continued Below

http://www.30goodminutes.org/csec/sermon/capon_4414.htm

confession is not a pre-condition of forgiveness. It's something that you do after you know you have been forgiven. Confession is not something you do in order to get forgiveness. It's something you do in order to celebrate the forgiveness you got for nothing  (taken from the comments in the link)

Oh God, that men would come to see this and embrace it, how great it would be to lay the religions of men down and realize the confession comes BECAUSE forgiveness has already been given!!!

[sheila]

 bEAUTIFUL! gUYS

[redhotmagma]

onfession is not a pre-condition of forgiveness. It's something that you do after you know you have been forgiven. Confession is not something you do in order to get forgiveness. It's something you do in order to celebrate the forgiveness you got for nothing  (taken from the comments in the link) (taken from the comment from nathan :icon_joker:)


Praise God!  I needed that this morning when I read it.  Thank you Lord for being so good. :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

 Every knee shall bow,every tongue shall confess

[jabcat]

"Confession is not a pre-condition of forgiveness"

I agree it's the Holy Spirit working in and through us, bringing everything to God's good pleasure.  However, this scripture seems to put the confession aspect the other way around;

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  I John 1:9

I've heard it taught (and it seems to bear fruit in my own life) that confession is "agreeing with God" that we've sinned.

[Nathan]

But I think it's yanked out of it's context.  The message isn't pertaining to what makes you saved in that if you confess, you're saved and if you don't confess you're not.  It's saying to me that there's more to the experience of being born again than just lip service.  There also comes with it an outward transformation as well.  The principle of the kingdom is that the change that transforms our whole being starts inwardly and manifests outwardly.  It is never the other way around.  So to say verbal confession is the key to spiritual transformation is just as backwards.

5 This is the message we heard from Jesus[c] and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. 6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; To me, "this" is the message that he's delivering.  He's talking about the fact that God is light, and if we are of God, we should be emitting that same light.  it's not about confession, it's about resemblance.  we are not practicing the truth. 7 But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts

[sheila]

what about this Hosea 13;14

   the guilt of Ephraim is stored up,his sins are kept on record,pains as of a woman in childbirth come to him,but he is a child without wisdom[does not know what he does]

  when the time arrives,he does not come to the opening of the womb[repentance before death]

   I will ransom him from the power of the grave, Iwill redeem them from death


    Father will not come as a man[who needs to repent]  for He is God and not a man..   Hewill do His will,redeem man,irregardless if he repents before death or not

   Luke 15;7  I tell you that in the same way, there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repnts,then over 99 righteous persons who do not need to repent


   I ask you, the kinsman redeemer,when he bought back what was lost,did he seek all the details of how it was lost,and a confession from those who  lost it,before He

bought it back.  Or is it not, that which was lost,is found


       Now,do I ask you........IS THERE ANYTHING THAT CAN SEPERATE MAN FROM THE LOVE OF GOD THAT WAS GIVEN THROUGH CHRIST?

  if they don't repent before death..then they are all in our company..who were/are dead in tresspass and sin. They weren't any deader when they went to their grave

   then we all were,before we repented.

  Now, the gates of hell will not prevail against Christ raising up His body.   Mouths that are an open grave[non-repentance] will not STOP HIM [Rom 3;13

  all have turned away,they have togather become worthless,their tongues practice deceit,the poison of vipers is on their lips, their mouths

  are full of cursing and bitterness]

  now, He has said..every knee shall bow,every tongue shall confess


  Rev 1;18 do not be afraid,I am the first and the last,I am the living one;  I WAS DEAD,and behold! I am alive for ever and ever!!  and....I hold the keys of death

  and Hades


   every 50 years there is a Jubilee....any inheritance lost....automatically goes back to the owner.   Now, if a redeemer wants to redeem it back before the fifty years are

up,He may


    If your blinded to the need to repent in this life...then you don't know what you do.



another thing, there are many that say 'Lord,Lord,did we not do etc and etc" and He doesn't even know them....there are those that are dead and aren't even aware

[jabcat]

But I think it's yanked out of it's context.  The message isn't pertaining to what makes you saved in that if you confess, you're saved and if you don't confess you're not.  It's saying to me that there's more to the experience of being born again than just lip service.  There also comes with it an outward transformation as well.  The principle of the kingdom is that the change that transforms our whole being starts inwardly and manifests outwardly.  It is never the other way around.  So to say verbal confession is the key to spiritual transformation is just as backwards.

5 This is the message we heard from Jesus[c] and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. 6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; To me, "this" is the message that he's delivering.  He's talking about the fact that God is light, and if we are of God, we should be emitting that same light.  it's not about confession, it's about resemblance.  we are not practicing the truth. 7 But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts

This writer states something "in the middle".  He states although a born again believer doesn't need to go around confessing their sins all the time, when a person is initially saved, there is a confession/repentance process.  He talks of I John 1:9 being about the gnostics who had an influence on the church.  I think it's an opinion worth (carefully, prayerfully) considering.

My personal view right now is also "somewhere in the middle".  I believe it's good for me to "agree with God"/acknowledge when I've sinned, without being condemned and groveling, etc.  I've been somewhat "in flux" with this, but I don't want to go off on something that just "feels good" or "seems right" without it being scripturally and truthfully sound.   :2c:


http://www.newcovenantgrace.com/christians-confess-sin-2/

Firstly note we are NOT propagating a sinful lifestyle. We are NOT encouraging people to just go out and commit hideous deeds of licentiousness. We believe in obeying God and living a holy lifestyle, but these are only the fruit. The root is being established in grace & righteousness, knowing who you are in Christ. So let's get into this week's message.
[1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness].
This verse has to be read in the context of the rest of the book of John – written to a group of believers whose ranks had been infiltrated by teachers of Gnosticism. John seems to be gentle whenever he addresses the Christians, calling them "my little children". But in other parts of his letter, when he is countering the teachings of the Gnostics, he becomes quite protective of his brothers and sisters in Christ, and his words quite harsh. At the time John wrote this letter, the Gnostics had already left the ranks of the Christians [1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us], but remnants of the Gnostisism teaching were still confusing the Christians that remained.

Gnostics are people who believe that creation is flawed and was created by a flawed creator, a movement out of which the "Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints" or "Mormons" has arisen. They also believe that there is no such thing as sin in the world, and as an UNBELIEVER that you do not have to confess your sins to God to be born again.
Even though the book of 1 – 3 John was written to the church, 1 John 1:9 was NOT a command for people to grovel in sack cloth & ash, instead it is simply a statement to contradict the false teachings of the Gnostics. There were people in John's church (who had not been born again yet) who were self righteously claiming that they did not need to confess their sins to receive eternal life. They were still confused by the teaching of the Gnostics, even though the Gnostics had already left. John countered this lie and said the following: [1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us].

And then in the next verse he reveals how to be saved: [1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness]. God will cleanse them from ALL unrighteousness if they will only confess that they need to be forgiven of their sins. If 1 John 1:9 were addressed to the believing Christians (the ones who were already saved), it would then contradict the following verse: [1 John 2:12 Little children, I write to you because you have been forgiven your sins through His name]. Why would John command people to confess their sins if He says a few verses later that they HAVE been forgiven? If confessing our sins was such an important practice in the life of a believer, why did the writer of the biggest part of the New Testament, Paul the apostle, not command us to do it once??
Under the New Covenant, ALL our sins (past, present & future) have been forgiven. When Jesus taught his disciples (who were still under the Old Covenant) the Lord's prayer, He told them: [Mat 6:12 and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors]. But under the New Covenant our motivation to forgive others is different. We don't forgive anymore in order for God to forgive us, but now we forgive others because WE HAVE BEEN forgiven. Col 3:13 ... even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

Countless doctrines have been formulated by the modern day church about confessing our sins to God, all based on this one verse (1 John 1:9). It's quite amazing if we realize there are no other verses in the entire New Covenant that tells us we should confess our sins to God! It's even more amazing if we realise that this verse was not even intended for Christians who trust in the forgiveness of God, but for self righteous people!

How can we have boldness before God if we have to grovel on our knees and plead for the forgiveness of our sins every time we pray? If we can't have confidence before God, how then can we even dream to stand in front of a blind person and say confidently: "Blind eyes open in the name of Jesus!"  We'd always feel that God does not want to use us because we have too much sin in our lives. No amount of crying, confessing, remembering your sins, emotional torment or anything we can do can add to the finished work of the cross, where our sins were forgiven, once and for all.

Yours in Grace
Andre van der Merwe

[eaglesway]

IMO "confession", like so many other Christian terms, can become a meaningless hot button because of extreme definitions. Confession is simply a manifestation of transparency and an outgrowth of humility and a contrite heart. Confession is not a precondition to forgiveness. It is a however, precondition to genuine koinonea to the extent that humility and honesty are the ground in which the seeds of a transparent friendship can grow. That doesn't mean we have to go around confessing our sins to everybody or somebody in particular. It is simply an equal part, along with repentence and faith towards God and many other facets- of a genuine disciples life. The "good confession" as Paul called it, is full of the glory of God, not centered in the sin of man, salted with fire, seasoned with grace- and at times accompanied by a prayer of repentence, deliverance and restoration. Evidence that the light has shined in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.

[jabcat]

Good comments, John.  Having to do with [unemcumbered] relationship?  Desire to please Him?


Recently in this thread we've batted around the need for confession for either the already-saved, or those coming into salvation.  Also, Paul said "it's no longer I that do it, but the sin that dwells in me".  Then finally, the idea that a Christian can no longer even sin, at least in terms of it being laid to his account (again, it's the sin that dwells within).

With that in mind, what to make of this verse?  This is one of a few verses (similar to Iceman pointing out in another thread) that having been brought up in an extremely literal, fundamental environ, can still cause some difficulty reconciling.  Thoughts?  (talk about "fitted for destruction")   :mshock:


26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[eaglesway]

I think context, in a topical study, brings some clarity. For instance (and I want to be brief here, which is not my strong suit HAHA) John spoke about a sin unto death and a sin not unto death in 1 John chapter 1 or 2- he says if you see someone comitting a sin "not unto death" to pray for them and "God will give them life for their sin". Wow, what grace we have in our hands :o). He says not to pray the prayer for life when someone is comitting a sin unto death. I assume this means we should pray for their repentance, which is the way back from sins unto death. This for me qualifies and defines the concept of "willfuly sinning" into the category of sins unto death- perhaps, witchcraft, murder, adultery, etc. -sins that incurred the death penalty in the OT. In other words, there are times when our sins are so destructive to others that God will allow destruction to come to us if we persist in such conduct. Here(Hebrews 10:31), IMO, willfully means "deliberately and persistently" and sins means "egregious acts committed in the Fathers plain sight and in the transgressors plain sight before God." Interestingly enough, it says the "terrible thing" is a FIRE THAT CONSUMES THE ADVERSARIES. I guess that leads to God(I AM WHAT I AM), who is a consuming fire, becomes all in all(BEHOLD I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW). I believe sometimes it begins in this life(some mens sins go before them into judgment) and sometimes it doesnt(some mens sins follow after them). Which is why we should stop judging before the time.

We have Christians today consigning people to "hell" and declaring(how presumptious and dangerous in itself, since "as you measure you shall be measured") the judgment of God on people for all kinds of things like having wine, or smoking or believing the wrong doctrines (I have been at times guilty of all of these as a Christian, and would still really love to have a bottle of the wine Jesus created out of water ;o)

I am a person who does believe in accountability for transgressions. Because of this accountability - I surely rejoice in the one thing that triumphs over it- God's mercy. At the same time I pray for some that God will give them life for their sins- I warn some others that it a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I believe the devil and his angels have already discovered this, Samson discovered it, Judas discovered it . It does not say, "It is a terrible thing with no hopeful outcome or eventual deliverance." It just says it is a terrible thing, sorta like Jesus saying, "Better to enter heaven maimed than to enter the gehenna fire in one piece". It is better to let go and fess up and ask for forgiveness. The alternative is totally unnecessary since the grace of God abounds.

To wrap it up, I am saying that the Lord has promised us immense long-suffering and forgiveness and grace for deliverance from our "missing the mark". I think it is when we deliberately violate the deeper ties of the union between all beings(my definition for sin is violating the bond between myself and God, or the bond between all beings), that we find ourselves in trouble with POPS. That is why Jesus taught that all the law and the prophets hang on the two great commandments- which are both all about love :o)