the wheat and the chaff

[sven]

I was discussing with a former Jehovah Witness, he knows the concordant literature but still believes in the annihilation of the wicked, he would like to believe all are finally saved but he can't see it in the bible.

He brought this verse:

Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

he is partly right about the symbolism, when you burn chaff it vanishes, no matter whether the fire is unquenchable or everlasting or not, when you burn chaff it vanishes, it is gone forever, the same he thinks will happen with the unbelievers, what would you answer? I know it is a parable, and that all will be saved is said in unambiguous words in my opinion, but what you answer to this argument?

[WhiteWings]

Unquencheble simply means it burns until it's out of fuel. The chaff in this case.

When you harvest wheat there is always chaff. That's just the way wheat is created.
Even the highest quality wheat has chaff.
Person = Wheat + Chaff

The verse is about 1 person. Not 2 persons -> Saint and Sinner.

All will pass through the fire. The chaff=sins will be burned off. Indeed permanently.
The verse is about annihilation of sin. Not annihilation of sinners.
God is a refiners fire = refiner removes junk(sin) from the gold(saint)
God is fullars soap = soap washes dirt(sin) from the body(saint)

:2c:

[sven]

Unquencheble simply means it burns until it's out of fuel. The chaff in this case.

yes, he does not believe the fire will leave the "chaff" unconsumed as those claim, who believe in everlasting torment

The verse is about 1 person. Not 2 persons -> Saint and Sinner.

yes thats a possible interpretation, but this man wouldn't accept this interpretation and I think it not that convincing also.

[WhiteWings]

Wheat + chaff is one plant. -> 1 group/person

Wheat + weed are different plants. -> 2 groups/persons

[NinjaWizards777]

This passage has always bothered me a little bit, but looking at it that the chaff is a part of the wheat...it definitly makes more sense.

particularity if you think about kolasis and how supposedly it was used to describe the pruning of trees...which is cutting off the bad so the good can grow.

Similar concept

[rosered]

Wheat + chaff is one plant. -> 1 group/person

Wheat + weed are different plants. -> 2 groups/persons

:thumbsup:


Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase [them]. 

[Tim B]

Wheat + chaff is one plant. -> 1 group/person

Wheat + weed are different plants. -> 2 groups/persons

:thumbsup:


Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase [them]. 

Wait, this sounds like it's two types of people now. As the "chaff" is referred to as "them."

[WhiteWings]

Good point. Gonna think about it...

[Tim B]

You know, it could simply mean to burn up the wicked. Not as in annihilate the actual person, but annihilate the wicked by transforming the wicked people (via the fire) into a new creation in Christ. Hence, the "chaff" is burned up, but that doesn't imply by any means that the actual person is destroyed. Besides, it'd be pretty freakin' hard to confess that Jesus is Lord if you don't exist (that is, by true and utter annihilation). lol

Also, could this have been a prophesy for those that would be destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD? I don't see why not. That'd really be purging the floor. Nothing like wiping out all the "chaff" (those in Jerusalem) from the "floor" (the LAND of Jerusalem). And, of course, the believers, or the "wheat," would be stored in the warehouse/garner (that is, a safe place away from Jerusalem's destruction).

[WhiteWings]

I checked several versions of psalms 35:5
Translations vary quite a bit.
Chaff in some translations is dust.
Angel in some translations is wind.
Not that it really clears up anything; but every conclusion starts with gathering facts/info....


Matthew 13:27-29  And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel?  28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather it up?  29 'And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat,

The good seed (=saints) are sown by the householder (=Jesus). The bad seeds (=sinners) are sown by the enemy (=satan)
Can the weed seeds be held accountable for being weed? Can an apple seed be held accountable for producing apples instead of coconuts?



Matthew 13:3-8  and he spake to them many things in similes, saying: 'Lo, the sower went forth to sow,  4 and in his sowing, some indeed fell by the way, and the fowls did come and devour them,  5 and others fell upon the rocky places, where they had not much earth, and immediately they sprang forth, through not having depth of earth,  6 and the sun having risen they were scorched, and through not having root, they withered,  7 and others fell upon the thorns, and the thorns did come up and choke them,  8 and others fell upon the good ground, and were giving fruit, some indeed a hundredfold, and some sixty, and some thirty.

The sower is Jesus. The seeds are humanity. Jesus seems to be a terrible farmer. The majority of the seed fell on the wrong place.
Is Jesus really the worst farmer in history?
Can a seed that is sown on rocks be held accountable not to grow?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: you know the amazing thing about God is that His consuming fire does destroy but rather reveals and changes everything back into His nature from which it came in the first place, because there is no death in the Spirit of God. Moses saw this principle in the burning bush, and this is the core principle for UR.

I particularly like the scripture Rose put forth about about the chaff being chased. He does pursue us and there is no where His hand is too short to reach us.

And since the natural man can only mimic some aspect of God that he sees thru a glass darkly (darkened soul), distorting the image, this is why alchemists of old tried to turn iron (fit for judgment nature of man)into gold (nature of God). Blessings....

[Tim B]

I checked several versions of psalms 35:5
Translations vary quite a bit.
Chaff in some translations is dust.
Angel in some translations is wind.
Not that it really clears up anything; but every conclusion starts with gathering facts/info....


Matthew 13:27-29  And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel?  28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather it up?  29 'And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat,

The good seed (=saints) are sown by the householder (=Jesus). The bad seeds (=sinners) are sown by the enemy (=satan)
Can the weed seeds be held accountable for being weed? Can an apple seed be held accountable for producing apples instead of coconuts?



Matthew 13:3-8  and he spake to them many things in similes, saying: 'Lo, the sower went forth to sow,  4 and in his sowing, some indeed fell by the way, and the fowls did come and devour them,  5 and others fell upon the rocky places, where they had not much earth, and immediately they sprang forth, through not having depth of earth,  6 and the sun having risen they were scorched, and through not having root, they withered,  7 and others fell upon the thorns, and the thorns did come up and choke them,  8 and others fell upon the good ground, and were giving fruit, some indeed a hundredfold, and some sixty, and some thirty.

The sower is Jesus. The seeds are humanity. Jesus seems to be a terrible farmer. The majority of the seed fell on the wrong place.
Is Jesus really the worst farmer in history?
Can a seed that is sown on rocks be held accountable not to grow?

This also makes sense, at least in some sense, with Romans 11:32, where it says God penned up all into disobedience so that he may show mercy upon all. In such a case, Jesus messed up the seeds on purpose, so he might show them mercy later!

[WhiteWings]

Mmmm, it looks like I've been reading with my eyes closed  :lazy:

Matthew 3:12
- Wheat and chaff is humanity
- Wheat and chaff are the two parts of the same person.

Matthew 13:3-8
It's not about the seed but about the soil.
Seed = word of God
Good, rocks, thorns, sun = Types of people. From fully live with the word to fully rejecting it.

Matthew 13:27-29
Two sowers - Jesus and satan.
Two types of seed. Good and bad. Truth and lies
This verse is bit problematic for me.
I would say humankind is the field and the seeds are the gospel of truth and the gospel of lies.
But a farmer sows for the harvest not to feed the ground...
That would mean humankind is the harvest. Good and bad.
In this verse I see the seed as life it self.
Because most people are wicked that would mean the majority of creation is of satan not of God.
And whatever the verse means it's certainly not that.
So it can only mean good and bad gospel. Although as said I don't really read it that way...

Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase [them]. 
Not a clue what it means. Thanks for confusing me Rosey  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

he knows the concordant literature but still believes in the annihilation of the wicked

Annihilation makes not much sense to me.

Annihilation would mean God wakes up the dead to put 'm back to sleep again...
Waking them up to purify (=UR) or to torture (=ET) them at least has a purpose.

[sven]

those who believe in hell, believe the unbelievers suffers from the moment on they die.

but your're right, St. Theodore of Mopsuestia said this aswell, without all being saved, the resurrection would have no benefit for most people.

this man who believes in annihilation still has a kind of JW mindset, those who are ressurected get a second chance, and the unrepent are annihilated after the millenium I think he believes; but it is a good argument, I will ask him.

[rosered]

Mmmm, it looks like I've been reading with my eyes closed  :lazy:

Matthew 3:12
- Wheat and chaff is humanity
- Wheat and chaff are the two parts of the same person.

Matthew 13:3-8
It's not about the seed but about the soil.
Seed = word of God
Good, rocks, thorns, sun = Types of people. From fully live with the word to fully rejecting it.

Matthew 13:27-29
Two sowers - Jesus and satan.
Two types of seed. Good and bad. Truth and lies
This verse is bit problematic for me.
I would say humankind is the field and the seeds are the gospel of truth and the gospel of lies.
But a farmer sows for the harvest not to feed the ground...
That would mean humankind is the harvest. Good and bad.
In this verse I see the seed as life it self.
Because most people are wicked that would mean the majority of creation is of satan not of God.
And whatever the verse means it's certainly not that.
So it can only mean good and bad gospel. Although as said I don't really read it that way...

Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase [them]. 
Not a clue what it means. Thanks for confusing me Rosey  :laughing7:

  good Job   bro WW , for checking them out !  :icon_flower:

I too looked at  the various versions and saw the same !!!
,in Psalms  35 :5

To me Gods ability  to sow the seed/word of God /Life within us
  Is on His part a wonderful gift of great grace
  , Him being the only one  who see it for what it is and  judges  accordingly bro ..

  Job by his own mouth did not call himself ''perfect/Complete'' , but the Lord sure DID!
  That is how I do know  Gods mercy is far more exceeding than  man has ever credited Him for it  :cloud9:


  the Lord  speaks Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.    there is alot to be said for'' integrity'' :winkgrin:

  hang in there bro  :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

,in Psalms  35 :5

To me Gods ability  to sow the seed/word of God /Life within us

Are you saying the same as Cardinal?
The wind/angels are hunting sinners down; not to destroy them but to sow good seed?

If that is the meaning of the verse I just don't see it.
Surely it can mean that; but there is to little (as in none) context to conclude that.
When I check Strong I only see negative things.
So a lmore explanation from the both of you would be welcome.

[Molly]

It's all about words--as satan himself knows.  That's why he uses so many of them to lead us astray.

Ever listen to the words of those songs you like so much?

There is only one seed that can give us life.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.


It might sound silly to some or simplistic to others but we really are what we eat.


48 I am that bread of life.

49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

--John 6



"bread" [of life]

G740
ἄρτος
artos
ar'-tos
From G142; bread (as raised) or a loaf: - (shew-) bread, loaf.


G142
αἴρω
airō
ah'ee-ro
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi WW........let me first say again how much it blesses me to see the work He is doing in YOU.  :thumbsup:

It might be a bit simplified, but the HG came to drag all to the cross and Jesus, that thru it they might meet God. Some (the 99) will go to it in this life, and the 1 (son/body of perdition) in the next, but either way, ALL will go. Blessings....

[rosered]

  Thanks Molly and Card ,
WW my bro ,  one seed among a thousand , will all live that is planted in our hearts?  the Promise of God is yes this one seed will  grow and live forever and the rest were not meant to , but perish in the using  :icon_king: Col 2
  It seems  very  possible to me  :HeartThrob:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.