The Way of Overcoming.

[Mickiel]

One of the glaring messages of Christ to the 7 churches in Revelations, is that they Overcome. Often I wonder about the message of Universal Salvation, its beauty, and its beast. Its beauty is in how Jesus has died for us all, saved us all and did everything for us all. But then there is the beast in the message. In addressing his Churches, Jesus was obviously against certain behavior of his called out, and against the lack of certain things they were not doing. So he gave his " Sermon" to them, which was basically to " Overcome."

You ever wonder just what it is that called out people should be " Doing", while they wait on Christ return? Just what is this life supposed to entail " Right Now", while God has not yet returned? Well its obvious, or use to be, that Jesus wants this time spent " Overcoming." And just as obvious I think he meant to overcome sin. And not only sin, but other things as well. To overcome means to conquer, to vanquish, or even to just get the better of something.

There are some interesting approaches to sin  that some could choose to take. One could say that Jesus has overcome for us, and we need not even worry about sin, its all a done deal. I think that is supreme confidence, and a road one could take. The suggestion is that there is nothing for them to overcome, so the message in Revelations is perhaps not for them that are on this level. Rather than criticize this level, I pray them Godspeed, it is truly a great level to live on.

Then there is the approach of actually being on the level of the Churches in Revelations, that of being an Overcomer. And there are definite ways of " Overcoming", that I wanted to discuss, which may be helpful to the one who walks the way of the Overcomer. And I think many fall into this category, as we wait for Christ return. This time is granted to us, to shed some sin in our lives. We are already saved, so our lives must now hold certain reasons that we exist, certain relevant things that God would like to see us do with this time. Certain developments that are meaningful to him.

Overcoming has very little to do with Salvation, I think it is more of " A way of Life." Each and every year you look to get the " Better of Sin", than it get the better of you. Knowing that our Adequacy comes from God, this life is not a self improvement program, it is a way of living. Some religions believe that overcoming sin is the entrance to salvation, and hold themselves as both responsible for their salvation, or their condemnation, according to how they overcome. Overcoming should be neither. It should be a " Relaxed" way of Life, not a frantic rush to gather and focus your efforts on change. So the first fruit in Overcoming, is Patience.

Be Patient with it. Take your time. That's what this time is for, its what we are to do, its what we can do. But what of Jesus statement, " Of myself, I can do nothing?" Well Jesus had a habit of cutting right to the root or foundation of things, often not going into the details. Jesus meant that the source of Power is God, he did not mean he was Powerless, and neither are we. The very same source is at our disposal. Jesus life on earth was not going about " Doing Nothing", and ours certainly should not be. And we have Time.  We may not be aware of how much time we have, but we have what we have. And we can do things with this time. Pick on a certain sin, look at it in your life, and take the time to deal with it. Taking 5, or 10 years to dispose of a particular sin, is not a waste of time. And its not a shame if it takes that long, or longer to Overcome it. If someone else is a sin " Superman", and can Overcome 7 sins in two weeks, well then fine for them, but there exist no time frame for Overcoming sin, it is just a way of Life. And we need to be relaxed and Patient with that. Not comfortable with sin in your life, but patient with it. We are not in a "race", and need not pressure ourselves with oaths and vows to stop sinning by next week.  Take your time, eventually you will see the advantage in Overcoming, and what that mindset has to offer.

One of the best ways to Overcome, or to live this life, is to take on the attitude of " Getting the Better of Sin in you." And a good mental foundation of that, along with Patience, be aware of the fruit of Long suffering. Long suffering is not only being patient with others sins, but also your own. One of the most dreadful things you can do, is beat yourself up, for being a sinner, who is aware of God. Understand that certain sins, or certain dreadful habits may take some time to overcome. But Jesus stands at the door and is just on the other side, you will Overcome it, in time. Then what? Well, move on to the next one. Long suffering with your own sin will be hard to do, if you are looking at one of those Supermen who seems to have no sins to overcome, or overcomes in two weeks. Long suffering should be specific, target one or two sins, if that does no good, reduce the focus to just one of them at a time. And if it takes years, get over it. Knowing all the time that God is with you. One day it will just be gone, and you will have release.

Peace.

[fire walker]

Mickiel,

I agree with what you say on patience and also the way of life given to us, this way of life can't be traditionally stereotyped or labeled as many of the traditionally organized brick and mortar churches attempt to do, in this world we are judged according the flesh and to me that is a shallow surface level judgement, none the less that is still the way this world has to judge. when we come into  knowing no man after the flesh then deeper things are discerned, then we begin to realize that many things we have been told are sin have only been perceived to be sin according to the doctrines of men.

That is my two pennies on this overcoming,
patience, grace is sufficient for us in all things.

Peace,
Fire Walker 

[Kratos]

Mickiel,

Allow me to lay a little bit of historic context to the principle of Overcoming from the type that God gave in the Old Testament to the children of Israel.

God delivered Israel from Egypt through the blood of an innocent lamb over each house which is a type of salvation. This deals with the sin issue IMO.

He then baptised them in the Red Sea as they began their journey out of Egypt (the world) signifying our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

They then journeyed to Mt. Sinai on the first Day of Pentecost when the Spirit came down and the Law was given which begins the process of sanctification when we grow up in God as we proceed through the wilderness to the promise of God.

Now, we come to the pertinent part. Overcoming in the type given through Israel was to possess the promised land. In their case, it was a physical land in Canaan, but for us it is our immortal bodies at the first resurrection. Twelve spies were sent out and all agreed that it was a good land and that there were giants to defeat in the land. Ten spies brought back an evil report that they were not able to Overcome the giants as they saw themselves as grasshoppers compared to the giants in the land.

Caleb and Joshua are types of the Over-comers. They were of a different spirit then the rest of the nation that failed to Overcome through unbelief. Many make the mistake in trying through their efforts to be Over-comers that caused those who perished in the Wilderness to fail. They look at themselves and their successes or failures as either proof of their being Over-comers or proof that they will not make it.

The reason that Caleb and Joshua became Over-comers and entered the land of promise is that they believed that if God delighted in them, He would give them the land. They never looked at themselves as the determining factor. They had unwavering faith that it was God in them that would make them Over-comers and not their ability to fight and defeat the giants.

There is a rest that comes to the people of God when they cease from their own labors. We must labor to enter into His rest so that we do not follow the example of those who perished through the same spirit of unbelief. The same gospel that was preached to them has been preached unto us also. We will Overcome if we hold fast our confidence firm unto the end that it is His good pleasure to give us the land. The battle is the Lord's and not ours.

John

[Mickiel]

Interesting and good responses.

When God plans on giving someone his Spirit, he will teach you what each Fruit is. Look at something when you study today, examine this: Galatians 5:22-23, the fruits of the Spirit. Now, it is true that God must give these things, but it is just as true that he will TEACH you to DO these things! The fruits of the Spirit are things that you must DO! Look at each of them. They are things that you DO for others and for yourself. And there is a very active involvement from the individual here. And that involvement produces the way of Overcoming.

In another example, Spiritual knowledge and wisdom is given by God, but God desires that we actively study his word. Is there a conflict here, is this a contradiction? The Holy Spirit teaches one in all things, will it teach someone not to study Gods word? Oh no, it will constantly point your nose into Gods word. But some of the called of God can become " Spiritually Lazy", and lean on the Spirits teaching, and feel there is no need to study the word. This is the " Spirit of Reaping the Benefits of Relationship, without personally working on the Relationship." And that Spirit is a roadblock to the way of Overcoming. We are to work out our salvation , which only means we need to actively work on our relationship with God.

I recall having certain women in my life that were just " Different." Not to catalog them, but they had very similar things in common. This type of woman I am referring to, just " Did everything" for me. I mean literally everything. I mean just spoiled you, served you, attended to you, just literally took care of you. Its very special to have someone like that, very rewarding. But it SHOULD teach a man certain things. How will the man RESPOND to this overwhelming goodness? Will he just lay back and reap all the benefits of relationship, and not actively work on it himself? What is he DOING for her?

Now understand human nature here. The man, ( or vice versa, if its the man doing everything for the woman) could very easily just sit and do nothing, and live like a KING! Just be a King during this time. What do you think he should do? She wants to do it, she Loves to do it, she Lives to do it. Well listen, this is hardly no different with what God is doing to us. He wants to Love us, he lives to Love us, he can't help himself, he just is going to take care of us.

How are we going to respond? Well Overcoming is our response, we learn to DO what God wants us to do. We actively become involved in how we are Living, and we work on our relationship with God. And we practice DOING the Fruits of the Spirit.

Peace.

[Kratos]

Mickiel,

The branch does not labor to bring forth fruit. All the branch has to do is abide in the vine. We are His workmanship if we hold fast our confidence firm unto the end. One of the ways that Christian stop abiding in the Vine is that they come back under the Law and fall into earning their salvation through their efforts.

Abide in what He does for you and in your faith and hope in the truth that He will preserve you blameless unto the coming of the Lord. A man can unhook themselves and no longer abide, but he cannot bear fruit of himself.

John

[Mickiel]

Mickiel,

The branch does not labor to bring forth fruit. All the branch has to do is abide in the vine. We are His workmanship if we hold fast our confidence firm unto the end. One of the ways that Christian stop abiding in the Vine is that they come back under the Law and fall into earning their salvation through their efforts.

Abide in what He does for you and in your faith and hope in the truth that He will preserve you blameless unto the coming of the Lord. A man can unhook themselves and no longer abide, but he cannot bear fruit of himself.

John

Well the Law is something that I pay no attention to, and I think its obvious that I do not view Overcoming and service to God as some may. I am one who views service to God as action oriented, we do things for him and for people. We actively live our lives in meaningful fellowship with God and with people, but I am not against those who like to stay home and spend little time with others, I can understand that also. If a believer wants to abide in the Vine, or just stay home and do nothing, well I am sure they can be content with that. I would rather get out and do things. This is a physical example of living ones life, conversely , we can examine how to Live Spiritually. One can " Abide in the Vine", and be well preserved until Christ returns. But there are others ways to live Spiritually as well. We need not be locked into just one way.

I look at life, as I do my study of God. I like to get out of myself, away from the Vine, away from home,  and get close to the edge, and look over it sometimes. I like " Doing things", both for myself, for people and for God. And with people and with God. I like fighting sin, I do not like just sitting back and watching Jesus fight for me alone. I got to do something in this thing, because I like doing something. I have the understanding of God already working out all things for me, but God does not inspire me to do nothing but sit connected to the vine. I mean, if he does that to others, that's between them and God. He does not do me like that. God leads me to do things, not do nothing. My priorities are set in Christ, I do not view my efforts as the force in my overcoming. I view my efforts as what God is inspiring me to DO.

For example. I trust that when I am unemployed, that God will give me a Job. Kratos, you and I know that if I go out and actively look for a job, send my resume out on the Internet each day, make as much effort as I can, does that mean that I do not trust in God? No, no, it means I am actively doing MY part, and I think that pleases God for me to do so. What then if I communicate with another believer who is unemployed, but views their getting a Job as an act of Faith, and they just make no effort, instead relying totally on God to give them a Job? Do I tell them such an approach is wrong? What if God does give them a Job without them looking for it, that's between them and how God treats them. If they have it that good, then good for them. But as for me, its not like that. That kind of Faith has not been developed within me, not been given to me. I have to make an effort, then God will bless that effort. Can that person then tell me that I am wrong? Consider that.

My Spiritual walk has been similar. The more I become actively involved in the " Things of God", the more fruit is born within me. I already knew how to do nothing Spiritually, before God instilled his way within me. I know how to do nothing about my sin, but that does not work for me. My effort does not earn my salvation, it earns my understanding, and sharpens what God has given. Why should I accept from God a talent, and " Do Nothing with it?"

In another example, if God gives a person a talent to write, what then should they " Do?" Well they should write, do something with the gift. And any gift Gods gives, it must involve DOING something. If this is not so, then explain to me a gift of God, that a person can just " Sit on", and do nothing, and that be pleasing to God. Is it now a thing to criticise a believer, because they want to " Do things", make efforts to live the way of Overcoming?

Peace.

[God_Chaser_007]

To be an Overcomer, may I place it in this context? (& I hope I don't confuse anyone …)

Heb 10
:1 For the Law which has a shadow of good things to come …

I believe the good things to come is referring to the Overcomer.
The Law being the Torah (Gen – Duet) is pointing to the Overcomer.

To firstly keep it simple, if we look at just 2 things from the Law: Tabernacle of Moses & the Feasts. If we overlay them this is what we get:

Outer Court = Feast of Passover, Feast of First fruits, Feast of Unleavened Bread
Holy Place = Feast of Pentecost
Holiest of Holies = Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles

An Overcomer will only be found in the Holiest of Holies and we must pass through the Day of Atonement & on into the Feast of Tabernacles. Looking at the Law of the Day of Atonement …

Lev 23
:28  And you shall do no work in that same day, for it is a day of atonement, in order to make an atonement for you before Jehovah your God.
:29  For any soul who is not humbled in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
:30  And any soul who does any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
:31  You shall do no kind of work. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

All other Feasts God says rest, do no work. But in this Feast (Day of Atonement) He says rest, do no work or else I will kill you. We need to rest in Him to finally become an overcomer.

My thoughts anyway

Blessings
GC007

[Mickiel]

The way of Overcoming is action oriented, similar to running a race. There is a difference in waiting on Christ, or as some hold the old tradition, " Tarry until I come", or as Paul wrote in Heb.12:1;" Let us Run with Endurance the Race that is SET before us." A most exciting statement which suggest that we Run, make some movement, and Keep on running, which is to maintain the movement. And while we run, we fix our eyes on Jesus. I am not one to speak much about my dreams, but there is one particular dream that I have almost monthly, but more so I have it when I am pressing to Overcome something.  Pressing my prayers on God. In the dream, there is always something chasing me, and I am always running from it. At times I stop and fight, but I can never seem to hit back, or be as offensive in my attack, as I would want to be. So I turn and run again. Sometimes I am able to fly away from the thing, and enjoy the freedom of the flight. And I have had this dream for more than 20 years now. The closer I get to Overcoming something, the more intense the dream can be. I am no discerner of dreams, but I do see two things that I understand.  I have to keep moving, and that the pressure will never let up. But I can get away from whatever it is, but it will come back, as I near more movement away from my sin. It helps me relate to Paul's testimony  that whenever I would DO good, that Evil is present with me. This always happens to me, because there has always been a lot of sin in my life. So there conversely has been a lot of Overcoming, much falling and much getting back up.

And this is how I relate to Gods word, the bible comes alive to us, because we " Experience it" in our own lives. That experience is a vital part of the way of overcoming. The Scriptures hit your experience very hard, and you know that Gods word is really true.

Now, look at 1Corinth.9:24;" Do you know that those who run in a Race all Run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may Win." Now was Paul suggesting that we give ourselves Salvation by our effort? No, he meant no such thing, he was TEACHING about the Way of Overcoming. Read 25-27, he is emphisising EFFORT and action, which was the Method of his Ministry. He was always DOING something for God and for people and for himself, it was a way of Life.

And I want to go into that way of Life, the Way of Overcoming.

Peace.

[Kratos]

The key to rest is doing no self initiated work. God will still work through us, but we wait upon Him and He does the work through us. The seventh day is a time when no man can work and the work of God begins in earnest.

The best example I know of from the scriptures is when the disciples had fished all night in their own power and caught nothing. Jesus told them to cast off their nets on the right side one more time and their nets were so full that they could not haul it all in.

They had fished by their self initiated actions with no fruit. But, when He initiated the action, they still had to obey and cast their nets.

Another example would be when the children of Israel finally were given permission to enter the  land of promise. When God first wanted to send them in, they would not go because of unbelief. So, He told them to return to the wilderness and they decided to go in anyway and were soundly defeated. When He did eventually initiate them going in, they had to obey, but follow His instructions to march seven times and shout around the walls of Jericho.

I do not doubt that the church has fished all night and caught little because Tabernacles is the time of harvest and it has not been time  yet. When He does initiate our seventh day harvesting of the earth, we will have to do things, but they will not be self initiated actions and they probably will not be things that will make sense to our natural minds. But, if we rest in our own understanding and just follow Him (abiding in the Vine), the harvest of the earth will be great indeed.

John

[Mickiel]

The key to rest is doing no self initiated work. God will still work through us, but we wait upon Him and He does the work through us. The seventh day is a time when no man can work and the work of God begins in earnest.

The best example I know of from the scriptures is when the disciples had fished all night in their own power and caught nothing. Jesus told them to cast off their nets on the right side one more time and their nets were so full that they could not haul it all in.

They had fished by their self initiated actions with no fruit. But, when He initiated the action, they still had to obey and cast their nets.

Another example would be when the children of Israel finally were given permission to enter the  land of promise. When God first wanted to send them in, they would not go because of unbelief. So, He told them to return to the wilderness and they decided to go in anyway and were soundly defeated. When He did eventually initiate them going in, they had to obey, but follow His instructions to march seven times and shout around the walls of Jericho.

I do not doubt that the church has fished all night and caught little because Tabernacles is the time of harvest and it has not been time  yet. When He does initiate our seventh day harvesting of the earth, we will have to do things, but they will not be self initiated actions and they probably will not be things that will make sense to our natural minds. But, if we rest in our own understanding and just follow Him 9abiding in the Vine), the harvest of the earth will be great indeed.

John

Well I agree with the way you put this. If we can pull the positives out of even debate, then we can see some of both sides of an issue.

If you draw a line, then stop, the line is still there, still going in the same direction. With God it is different. Before God even draws the Line, he is both the beginning of it and the end of it, no matter when or where he stops. Our lives are like this in his hands. He draws the Line, he puts us on it, and expects us to walk it. And when God has called out a church, he has Always gave instructions to that church. The instructions were given, because he wanted them all to do things. To think a certain way, to live a certain way, to speak a certain way, and walk in the way of overcoming. And the end time church will DO even more than this. Be even more than this. The church may well have rested enough, but when satan is hot on their tail, they'll learn how to run.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

By far, the most exciting and challenging thing to ever happen to me, is my being prepared to be introduced to God. Everything else pales in significance. I don't even know God, but just the process of being prepared to be called, is a " Shattering", to put it mildly. The way of Overcoming is eye opening.

Being prepped for the calling of God, is an ongoing observance, a continual " Learning", but it does not make you a " Fish." If you observe the life of a Fish, its very interesting. I have had a fish for 2 years now. It literally just waits to be fed, sometimes swims around and then sleeps. Is this the life of a true believer? You wait around to be fed, then you swim a bit and sleep. So is God coming back for a called out church of people who are fat on knowledge and well protected in their little bowl of isolation? Is the Spiritual way of Life, a life of consuming all the Spiritual food you can, then that's what makes you an Overcomer? Is this wise, or is it creating a bunch of Spiritual food junkies?

Look at a very interesting statement from Jesus in John 9:41;" If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say " We See", your sin remains." One of the understandable attitudes of those who hold the calling of God, is that they " Can See", and that those who do not have knowledge, well they are blind. But this observation of Christ cuts both ways, often it is the one who " Sees", that holds sin also. They feel that because they have knowledge, they are so fed, and so content on feeding, that there is nothing to Overcome in their lives.

I no longer have to wonder what its like to come to know God, I am already thrust into that, and its nothing like I assumed it would be. Nothing with God is as I assumed it would be. I am beginning to understand the statement, " All who would live in Christ Jesus, must Suffer persecution." But its the " Persecution" itself that has amazed me. Because it can come from the " Other direction", not the one you assumed it to come from. It reminds me of " Misdirection", or the " Other Lion."

When Lions attack, and the attack is being filmed, the camera men have noticed that it is not the Lion that rushes head on which the animals or the prey can see that does the real damage, its the Other Lion that you cannot see that often makes the kill. The one crouching in the bushes. The prey was being led to him by the other Lions, and they didn't see it coming. Such is the Way of Overcoming.

Is God designing or developing a church of protected fish in a bowl, grown fat on being fed, and no enemy to be concerned about? I often wonder about that. What kind of Spiritual character is that producing? What kind of suffering could growing fat on being fed really be? Where is the suffering in that? Well I think that whole mentality simply does not see the " Other Lion" coming. That other beast that is seeking to devour you.

Part of the Way of Overcoming, is knowing about the beast, knowing it is there, and it is after you. Overcoming is how you respond to that Knowledge that God has given. You are being fed, you are becoming stronger, well all that for What? To swim around and be fat? What are you going to do with the RESULTS of knowledge, or does knowledge has a result? What are you going to do with your strength? What are you going to do with this greatly elevated perception? What are you going to do with your calling?

Because that will determine within you, the Way of Overcoming.

Peace.

[Kratos]

Mickiel,

I felt led to share the way I try to live. It is a 3 step that I remember by the letters, OSR.

(1) Obey God

(2) Serve people

(3) Rest in the results

It helps me to prioritize my life. I do not concern myself with the fruit or the results. I do not obey people when it contradicts obeying God. When in the Harlot ministry, I used to obey the people while serving God and worry night and day about the results. Now, I obey God and serve the people with no counting the rewards as to whether my service or obedience is worth it.

It is about no longer living by the sweat of my brow as a part of Adam's race. I live to sow into other's lives and trust in that truth that I will one day reap so I never get weary in well doing.

John

[Mickiel]

Mickiel,

I felt led to share the way I try to live. It is a 3 step that I remember by the letters, OSR.

(1) Obey God

(2) Serve people

(3) Rest in the results

It helps me to prioritize my life. It is about no longer living by the sweat of my brow as a part of Adam's race. I live to sow into other's lives and trust in that truth that I will one day reap so I never get weary in well doing.

John

Understandable point of view, I see some positives in it.

The way of Overcoming has a way that I call " Nibbling". You nibble away at the sin in your life, and not get weary in that well doing. And it is a " Doing." This does not address those with no sin in their lives, only those who must face " Multiple sins" that are presently within them. Sin can over burden you, that much is for sure, not only yours, but others sin also. And there is no need to Over burden yourself in the Overcoming of sin. Just nibble away at it, until the nibbling becomes a way of Life. Then two things will become " Constant", in your way of Life. One, you will always be able to look back and see improvement in your walk with God, which is encouraging. Two, you will always look forward to Overcoming sin.

Lets just create a scenario. Here we have a believer who is laden with Sin. He or she gets drunk, they smoke, they curse, they steal, they fornicate and they lie. Now Jesus will continually forgive all of these Sins, but the way of Overcoming offers to the believer a continual response to this dreadful reality. They can always be forgiven, but they can always live in the way of Overcoming their Sin. There are several ways of living this out. One can try and take the super repentant approach, and just stop doing them all at once. Well if that happens, then fine. You are surely blessed if it does live out that way. But if you find yourself unable to live like that, then just nibble away at it. Eventually God will release you and you will know the Joy of just one Sin going away from you. And you will want that Joy in other areas as well.

So " The Nibble", is a way of Overcoming.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Another way involved in Overcoming, is to " Aim Your Eye."

There are several callings involved with God, but then there is a " Higher Calling", on which one can set their sights. In Phil. 3:14, " I press on toward the Goal for the prize of the Higher calling of God in Christ Jesus." This calling is more upward than the others, a higher standard to live by, vs. 16. This standard requires much more effort, more diligence , which is why Paul mentions to Press onward. At this level, you press yourself, test yourself, and make sure of and give diligence to this calling, it is not " Taken" for granted.

Notice 2 Peter 1:10;"Therefore brethren, be all the more Diligent to Make " Certain" about his Calling You, AND choosing you, for as long as you PRATICE these things, you will never stumble." This calling is dynamic, and it needs to be self examined, then practiced, and will result in the way of Overcoming. You set your eyes on God, Aim your eye. You target him and press your prayers on him, and press yourself onward. There is a standard to reach and maintain. With this standard, there is little room for self satisfaction. You think better, you do better, you live better.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Another way of Overcoming, which may suite some, is to understand that Overcoming is a " Labor", its work. Notice Rev. 14:13;"And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, " Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord", from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, that they may " Rest from their Labors, for their deeds follow them." Two things here, they Labored, then they died, then rest came. So the Labor last all while they are alive, and the Labor, is the way of Overcoming.

Paul speaks of this Labor in Rom.16:12, 1Corinth.15:10, Phil.2:16, and 4:3. Preaching and teaching is not the only work of God, working on yourself is a Labor of God, it is the way of Overcoming. And Christ desires to " Know our Works." As he knew the works of the 7 churches in Revelations.

The Way of Overcoming is a Labor of God, its both for God and for yourself, and for others.

Peace.

[Molly]

We are prisoners in bondage, dead, shackled in the dark, blind, blinded, seeing nothing.  This is what must be overcome.




Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?



Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

[Mickiel]

In the Way of Overcoming you have to be constantly aware of your sin. There are many who's view of sin affords them to not even worry about their sin. Such a level is unimaginable to me, my sin is ever before me, I can always see it. God wants a continual discussion with you about your sin, which is why he has asked that we confess our Sins to him, discuss them with him daily. Some biblical writers even suggest that we discuss our sins with each other, that it would strengthen each other in doing so. The bible has not asked us to be silent and mum on our Sin, but certain new teachings has sought to give that impression.

David said in Ps.32:5, I Acknowledge my sin to you. God wants us to have a daily conversation with him about our sin. This is important to God, it conveys a lot of information to him about us. This is one way how God learns our attitude. There are new teachings that suggest that we no longer need even think about our sin, and it may even teach that we need not confess them to God, or discuss them with him. That we can live as if we have no sin. If we say that we have no sin, that is simply deceptive, we are fooling ourselves, 1John 1:8.

The Way of Overcoming keeps a constant inventory of your sin. You want to know where its at in your life, what its doing to your life, and what it has done in the past to you. Because that develops into your witness, it becomes an integral part of your reality, it compels you into your future. And it has been much of your dialog with God.

Peace.

[Kratos]

Mickiel,

I really do disagree with what you posted and have not seen what you propose as doing any good toward Overcoming. As a man sees himself in his heart so is he. If you see yourself as a sinner all of the time and your sin is forever before you, then a sinning sinner is what you will be.

Please read chapters 8-10 of Hebrews and pay attention to what it says about sin consciousness. God still sought fellowship with Adam after he sinned, but man hid from God due to sin consciousness. God provided a sacrifice for sin so man would be able to feel clean enough to fellowship with God. But, under the Law, God was not pleased  because these sacrifices had to be made year by year to keep men feeling that they could approach God. The blood of bulls and goats could never make men perfect as it pertained to their conscience.

So, God sent His Son to make one sacrifice to put away sin forever. Those who He has perfected, He has perfected forever. He has taken the sin issue out of the way except in the conscience of those who have not yet believed the Word on this issue. Jesus has not only already forgiven and paid the price for every sin you have ever committed, but He has already forgiven and paid the price for every sin you ever will commit in the future.

This should cleanse your conscience concerning sin once and for all so you can serve God with no more consciousness of sin. What you are saying is exactly opposite of what the Word says that we should do. I pray that the Holy Spirit reveal to you what Jesus has done so that you can begin to enter His rest when it comes to your righteousness before God.

Peace,

John

[Mickiel]

Mickiel,

I really do disagree with what you posted and have not seen what you propose as doing any good toward Overcoming. As a man sees himself in his heart so is he. If you see yourself as a sinner all of the time and your sin is forever before you, then a sinning sinner is what you will be.

Please read chapters 8-10 of Hebrews and pay attention to what it says about sin consciousness. Peace,

John

Well I understand your disagreement, but there is no need for you to concern yourself with me, God has helped me to Overcome many sins, and will do the same for me up ahead. I am a sinner, and had a truckload of it in my life removed, and there are still trucks waiting to be loaded for removal. I see things in Hebrews differently than you, because I am a different kind of man than you. I really am a sinner, I mean its really true, thats what I am. And I have been one of the finest sinners who ever lived. You wouldnot believe the things I have gotten away with, the sins I have consistantly committed for years. Sometimes I wonder why God even fools around with me. It just doesn't make any sense , at times. Well you can see yourself how I think. Its horrible.

Hebrews 8-10 simply speaks to me to live a life of faith, doing your best not to take on an aittitude of " Sinning Willfully", knowing you will be forgiven, so you take no responsive thought toward your sin. Thinking that your knowledge of the truth is the sacrifice for sin itself. Living with no reguard to sin, is, in my view, an insulting of the Spirit of Grace. If we shrink back from our responsibility with our sin, God has no pleasure with that.

We have need for endurance, because the will of God is something that needs to be " Done." Your view of what the " Rest of God" means, is certainly different than mine.

Peace.

[Pierac]

Faith: Thinking or Acting?

Many Christians, particularly those ignorant of the Hebraic background of this word, understand faith mainly as an activity of the mind.  For these Christians, to "believe" or "have faith" is largely a matter of intellectual assent to some proposition.  The Hebrews, however, looked at faith differently.

The verb aman is one of the terms used in the Hebrew Bible for "believe," "trust," or "have faith." The term is sometimes translated "support," "nourish," "confirm," "make firm," or "make lasting."  The word omenet, "nurse" (Ruth 4:16) and the word omenot, "pillars," "supports of the door" (2 Kings 18:16), also derived from the verb aman.

A more frequent cognate term is emunah, often translated "faithfulness" or "trust."  In various contexts this word conveys the idea of "firmness" or "steadfastness," or it may indicate constancy, stability, steadiness, reliability, and support.  This meaning is clearly borne out in Exodus 17:12, where we read about God bringing victory to Israel against the Amalekites -as long as Moses holds up his hands.  But the hands of Moses grew tired, so Aaron and Hur held his hands up, and "his hands remained emunah until sundown."  In this passage, emunah carries the idea of steadiness or firmness, and accordingly, this meaning set the tone for the succeeding occurrences of the term.

When emunah is used of God, it usually points to his utter dependability and unwavering faithfulness: the term is often associated with God's words (Psalms 119:86) or attributes such as mercy.

Emunah is also used of human beings. In these contexts, it often refers to those who have the capacity to remain stable (i.e., faithful) amid the unsettling circumstances of life, realizing God's truth has established them (Psalms 119:30).  One of the most pivotal passages in the Hebrew Bible is where emunah is used is Habakkuk 2:4: "the righteous will live by his faith [emunah]."  This text was later quoted by Paul (Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11) and eventually became the battle cry of the Reformation.  But we must first consider the original context. Habakkuk's people were about to fall on hard times, for God would be using one nation to punish another.  This situation would require a deeply rooted reliance on God, especially his justice and his wisdom in running the universe.  Stability and support were needed if God's people were to outlast and survive the impending "day of calamity" (3:16-17).  We observed in that emunah, as Leo Baeck has stated, in his book The Essence of Judaism p.119.  The "inner firmness and peace, the strength and constancy of man's soul."

Many places in Scriptures, however, indicate that the biblical idea of faithfulness was not always practiced by God's people. Yet when their sin caused them to face circumstances as grim as the destruction of Jerusalem and exile, even then Jeremiah, weeping, affirm to the Lord, "Great is your faithfulness [emunah]" (Lam. 3:23).

To the Hebrew mind, therefore, faith meant confidence.  It was the capacity to "enter life with courageous expectation." The person of faith did more than believe in his heart or develop an attitude of trust. He stepped out into life to act on that belief.  His mental assurance and convictions were transformed into action.  For the Hebrew, faith was more than a theory; it was wed to a life of service.  Indeed, the Hebrew could serve God through work.  He knew that God was always met in history, in the context of events, in the world of activity and doing. The person of faith was one who was so committed to God that, like Abraham, he ventured into the unknown with the full expectation that God would meet him there.  Thus, in the biblical sense, to have faith
was to move out in life and know God would be there waiting.  It was "the call to step boldly into tomorrow, to embrace the new-with confidence that every new day would prove to be a meeting place with the Holy and eternal God.  The opposite of faith was to cling desperately to yesterday, fearing that if one ever left it, one would leave God."

This is the Hebraic and biblical model of faith.  As Abraham Heschel has pithily stated, it requires "a leap of action rather than a leap of thought."  Again, in the polarity of expression that often characterizes Heschel, "faith is not a state of passivity... it is an enterprise, not inertia." We must stress that this emphasis is clearly in accord with the New Testament teaching that "faith, by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" (Jas. 2:17).  Biblical faith, though conscious of heaven, operates in, and his only at home in, the realm of flesh and blood.  Removed from the sphere of the angels, such faith confronts idols and addresses the in humanities and injustices of a sin-plagued world. This biblical quality of faith has the possibility of transforming this life so that those thereby changed may attain, by God's grace, of the life to come.


Peace  :hihat:
Paul

[Mickiel]

This is the Hebraic and biblical model of faith.  As Abraham Heschel has pithily stated, it requires "a leap of action rather than a leap of thought."  Again, in the polarity of expression that often characterizes Heschel, "faith is not a state of passivity... it is an enterprise, not inertia." We must stress that this emphasis is clearly in accord with the New Testament teaching that "faith, by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" (Jas. 2:17).  Biblical faith, though conscious of heaven, operates in, and his only at home in, the realm of flesh and blood.  Removed from the sphere of the angels, such faith confronts idols and addresses the in humanities and injustices of a sin-plagued world. This biblical quality of faith has the possibility of transforming this life so that those thereby changed may attain, by God's grace, of the life to come.


Peace  :hihat:
Paul

Well I can see much of this myself, that Faith without works is dead. Biblical works does not result in gaining a weekly paycheck from God, which is why the very word " Work", frightens some believers, as it frightens lazy people in the carnal world. If anything that requires US to do something comes into the picture, its just going to seperate the crowd. The room will part into the do nothings, and the do somethings. I can just imagine who God will use when he wants something done.

I kind of like that cable commercial I have seen where several people are standing around a garbage can and looking at the paper on the floor. They are discusted at it being on the floor, and discussing it being on the floor. Then a woman walks by, bends down, swoopps up the paper and puts it in the garbage. Its what she does next that I like, she just kept walking away from those who did nothing. She was going somewherelse to " Do some more."

So in the Way of Overcomming, all the fruits and talents within you must be active and employed. Worship of God is active, Praise of him is active, prayer to him is active, trying his way or testing his way, is VERY active. The term itself, Overcomming, is active. Do a study of it.

Peace.

[Pierac]

Do a study of it.

I did, this is why faith is active. So what are you waiting for? Start picking up the paper!   :thumbsup:


Peace,
Paul

[Mickiel]

Do a study of it.

I did, this is why faith is active. So what are you waiting for? Start picking up the paper!   :thumbsup:


Peace,
Paul

Well yes, I study everyday. But why? Why study? Why take the time to do that, and what are your reasons for the study? Well I need to do it, because I need toOvercome, I am not relaxed in God, I do not yet know him. I have the " Hunger and the Thirst", for him, because I do not HAVE him. So I crave the study, I desire the Study, I am hungry to know him and his word.

Perhaps that is why the thought of rest is not what I am looking for, I am looking for work. I want something to do for God. And I want and need him to DO things for me.

Let me say something here that I am not proud of. There have been some times in my life that I have wrestled with God, or the belief that God was listening to me complain to him. Because I was tired of the contridiction, he was pumping into me all kinds of wonderful wisdom and understanding along with some gifts, and yet NOT giving me his Holy Spirit, and not removing certain Sins that I hated within me. So I am asking him what sense that makes to him, because it made none to me. The only thing I ever got out of those battles, was that God already knew what he could do and was doing, the question was what can I do and what am I doing? Well I had bought into that teaching that Christ does it all for me, and that wasted so many years in my life I am ashamed to say, but I tried to both Believe it, and Live it, just let Jesus do it all. Well that don't work for me. Not me.

Its just not for me. I am involved in this thing, and I need to watch what I say and do in my life. I need to BE INVOLVED in how I live for God, or I am not going to understand this way of Overcomming.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Let me say something about the Way of Overcomming. All " We", like sheep have gone astray, each one to its own views and interpitations. The we covers everyone, no matter what stage of living we are in. And the " Astray", is mostly in how we view the things of God. Hardly any of us have just threw in the towel and complettely forsaken our belief in God. So the gone astray is mostly how we understand things. And God is able to straighten that out, but because he does not always do it immediately, then he is doing somethingelse. Its " The Other Lion" which we cannot see, that he only allows so much of that attack. We are often dismayed at the attacks that we can see, and much of Overcomming is spent in that area. So we need each other in many ways that will connect in fellowship down the road a bit. Its those who go off on their own who are more of out in the open. But God will go after them if they stray too far.

Can you picture a bunch of Lions trying to attack, a few of the prey, who are themselves attacking each other? So if we are to help each other, then that desire itself, is a work in Overcomming. The sensation of " Iron sharpening Iron", and I see a lot of that going on here, and I think that helps in the way of Overcomming. It is easy to beat up on myself for my sins and shortcommings, but that need not extend into beating others up. So part of Overcomming, is defintely how I treat others who desire the Way of God.

In Isaiah 40:5, " The Glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it Together", and this comes from the Mouth of the Lord. This is the Voice of God, its the voice we can depend on, his own very promise. The word of God stands forever, it is not still, it is continual and dynamic. The grass withers and flowers fade, they are what is small and still, but God will come with Might and Power. When God speaks, we will gain New strength, and mount up like eagles, run and not get tired, walk and not get weary. We get weary because he has not spoken, we get tired because he has not given strength. God is very able to stop this and settle it, but he has not done that, and we need not manufactor our situations and try and act as if he has. God does not need to take the time to care, he already cares for us, we can take the time for what its meant to be, to Overcome.

So we help each other as God gives us the tounge of Disciples, that we may know how to substain the weary one with a word. A word that opens an ear. Then the Prey cannot be taken, because we are encamped by the words of Might. And we clothe ourselves with those words. And that is what our treasure is, that is where our hearts are.

And this is how Jesus taught the Way of Overcomming, to work on the log that is in your eye, your understanding, then we can see more clearly how to help each other. We then give to each other what is Holy, and cast pearls at each other as we converse. In this manner we rightly devide that which is true.

Peace.

[Pierac]

Hi Mickiel  :hihat:

Let me say something here that I am not proud of. There have been some times in my life that I have wrestled with God, or the belief that God was listening to me complain to him. Because I was tired of the contradiction, he was pumping into me all kinds of wonderful wisdom and understanding along with some gifts, and yet NOT giving me his Holy Spirit, and not removing certain Sins that I hated within me. So I am asking him what sense that makes to him, because it made none to me. The only thing I ever got out of those battles, was that God already knew what he could do and was doing, the question was what can I do and what am I doing? Well I had bought into that teaching that Christ does it all for me, and that wasted so many years in my life I am ashamed to say, but I tried to both Believe it, and Live it, just let Jesus do it all. Well that don't work for me. Not me. 

Its just not for me. I am involved in this thing, and I need to watch what I say and do in my life. I need to BE INVOLVED in how I live for God, or I am not going to understand this way of Overcoming.

The acid test as to whether I have "Jesus in my heart" is whether I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. Indeed, I have the Father and the Son. Hence Paul's vigorous warning that if anyone fails to demonstrate the presence of the words of Christ in his life, he is devoid of understanding (1 Tim 6:3).
I am firmly convinced that the Scriptures are harmonious concerning the Spirit of God as being a power and word and mind of God in action.

Just what are you to do Mickiel?  Jesus told us what to do. We are to Love:

1Co 13:4  Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,  5  does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
1Co 13:6  does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
1Co 13:7  bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.


Who said is was going to be easy? Looks like one would have to die to oneself daily to accomplish this thing call, Love. Loving in a fallen world is a heavy cross to bear.  When you love, you take care of the needs of others ahead of your self. Not so easy is it.  :sigh:

Peace,
Paul