MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE!!!

[NinjaWizards777]

Im sure this passage has been brought up before, but its one thing that I hear alot and I have a okay comeback for it...but would rather see your guys thoughts on it. The ever popular romans 1:18-23

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

People seem to use this as a proof text that people dont have an excuse for knowing God (although I argue it doesnt say anything about not having an excuse for not knowing the means of salvation), so what are your thoughts?

[jabcat]

This may help, written by Gary Amirault;


Whenever the subject comes up of what happens to the African who never heard the Gospel, the above scripture is usually the one quoted to justify the fact that billions of souls will be tortured forever. This is usually the only scripture quoted to justify God. Taken out of context and put into the discussion of justifying God's behavior, this seems like a reasonable Scripture to quote. But when we put the Scripture back into its context in the entire book of Romans, and put those words into the apostle's mouth who never preached a hell of eternal torment in this or any other book he wrote, we then discover that this passage has nothing to do with the subject of the African who never heard of the Gospel. If you don't believe Paul never preached hell, look into the Strong's Concordance and look up the word "hell." You will discover it is mysteriously absent from Paul's vocabulary. The apostle to the world seems to be preaching a different deliverance than the modern church is preaching. Paul wrote that if anyone preached another gospel other than his, let him be accursed. Paul never preached "hell." Where does that put the "modern gospel?"
It should be obvious to anyone who will study this passage, that if one concludes that it is possible to "get saved" by looking at creation and discovering there must be a God, then Jesus died needlessly, the Gospel would serve no purpose, and there is another way of salvation other than the Gospel. Most of the world believes there is a god based upon looking at creation. Does that save them? Is a Moslem saved because they believe in a god? Was the Roman pagan even more saved because he believed in several gods? Since when does looking at a cloud bring one to "Christ crucified?" And if looking at creation, and determining there is a god can bring righteousness, how does that line up with many other passages from Paul that clearly declare, "There is none righteous, nay, not one." That includes those under the law (Jews) and those not under the law (all the rest of us).
Please observe that the list in verse 29 through 31 refers to people here on earth, not in hell and the penalty is death, not "eternal punishment." Putting this Scripture back into its proper context, we find it connected to a "therefore." This "therefore" connects what was previously discussed. "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. (Romans 2:1) Now that turns the tide a bit. The very person who places these people in "hell" and says they are without excuse is actually condemning people, judging people while they practice the very same thing!

[Doc]

Good points, Jab. Also, the thing that bugs me about that passage is that they always stop before they get to Chapter two, where Paul continues his thought through to about the end of Chapter 5, IIRC. If they stop at the end of CH 1, they've only read the barest intro. to Paul's inspired thoughts, and as a result come to a completely different conclusion from it than he does later in Romans 5, 8 and 11.

[martincisneros]

Yeah, I have to agree with Doc.  They're taking it out of context.  Proceed further and further into the book, and as "all were without excuse through Adam," so "all are without exception through Christ."  All you had to do was be born to be included in the nonsense of Adam, and as I was enjoying the sermons from Bishop Jim Swilley at the "Church in the Now" website earlier on the internet where he was pointing out -- as you only have to be born to be included in the work of Adam, you only have to be born to be included in the work of Christ, per Romans 5 and 2Corinthians 5, because Christ Jesus is a New Creation in 2Corinthians 5:16-17, 21.  Great stuff in the archive I've been listening to for the last 24hrs since I found out that the Church is fully UR, not just him on the internet.  Check out the archived stuff:

http://www.churchinthenow.org/Broadcast.html

I'm thinking I'm going to be having a sermon going on by him in the background, no matter what I'm doing online via another window or tab on this IE browser.  I don't know.  I'm so tunnel-visioned these days, that it's probably easier for folks to do that are half my age.  Really, really great stuff though!

[jabcat]

He tells us that Israel was "chosen" in order that all the families of the earth might be blessed thru them.(Genisis 12)
He then tells us that we have been "chosen" to believe in order that He might gather together in one, not just earthly beings, but those which are in the heavenlies.(see Ephesians)
We are given this belief not to exclude all the other created beings, but in order that they may also be blessed.

At the end of the eons, called the consumation by Paul, all will have been granted the ability to "see" the belief in a way that they will believe. "Every knee bowing, every tongue acclaiming, Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Then God will be all in all.(Corinthians)
Lee

:happyclap:  ...and all Israel will be saved.  Rom. 11:26