Why did early believers allow themselves to be martyred if they believed in UR?

[martincisneros]

When you've already died to the flesh, per Romans 6, it's easy to simply take that coat of flesh off, per 2Corinthians 5 and 1Corinthians 15, knowing you've got a spiritual body in the heavenlies, (i.e. in another demension,) that if you didn't capture walking in the fullness of it here, you know that you still can because death has lost it's sting and Hell has lost it's victory.  When you've accounted yourself alive to God, risen from the dead, and not subject to bondage per Romans, Galatians, Ephesians -- well, really per all of St. Paul's writings, but most especially per Romans 6, then the presentation of your members as instruments of righteousness to God is the easiest thing you could ever do.  To live is as Christ, per Philippians 1, and to die is GAIN per Philippians 1 (contextually "physically"). 

It's easy to pass on, [if your testimony to the Lordship of Jesus needed the extra exclamation mark,] because godliness with contentment is GREAT GAIN.  God does give us richly all things to enjoy per the closing verse or two of 1Timothy 6, but all things are consistently always ours [in every single way] whether or not this earthly tabernacle is dissolved.  With or without the body, your status of ownership of all things doesn't change or become more real, or whatever.  Many of the early believers weren't instructed deeply enough of the Holy Spirit and of the Written Word that they didn't have to run to the stake to have Paradise, but could have it right here, although obviously from the moment one embraces His Lordship and the Lordship of His Scriptures it's usually an uphill climb of confessing, believing, imagining (i.e. I only do what I see My Father do), and putting down all disobedience in your flesh as you worship God with the Word and are carried by your thanksgiving into all that God has for you.

However, when He's really revealed Himself to you, then that cry of Sonship comes roaring through the heart of "Not my will, but Thine be done!"  And all you want is whatever He wants!! :bgdance:

[Molly]

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


Truth is real.  It is absolute.  It exists independently of us. .

Our minds are constructed to avoid and reject truth if at all possible because truth can often be very painful.  This is called, denial.

The ruler of this world also rejects truth, as we know, (the father of lies) because it does not serve his purpose of power and control of the masses.  He bombards us with lies all day long

Thus, we have two strikes against us.  Even if we are willing to cross the threshold into pursuing all truth about everything, we are still faced with the dilemma--now that I know the truth, what do I do about it?  Do I risk everything, even my life, for the truth?

The early followers of Y'shuah were willing to sacrifice all for the truth.  Satan can and will mess with the truth as long as he can, but, eventually,  the truth will always prevail.




John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

[sven]

as far as I know Origen died as martyr as well, we all know that he was aa universalist.

I think a truth or conviction, if it is something worthy and good, is worth to die for, no matter if there is reward or not.

I often wonder, what Christians believe in countries like China who die for their faith, if they believe in hell or universalism.

remember Stephanus:

And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:60)

do you think Stephanus believed in everlasting hell? - I can't imagine that (we find not the slighest hint on such a belief in Acts)

maybe the hope in everlasting life is enough motivation (many Jews died for their belief, and Jews commonly don't believe in everlasting torment)

2 Macc. 7:14 KJV (apocrypha)

So when he was ready to die he said thus, It is good, being put to death by men, to look for hope from God to be raised up again by him: as for thee, thou shalt have no resurrection to life.

7:36

For our brethren, who now have suffered a short pain, are dead under God's covenant of everlasting life: but thou, through the judgment of God, shalt receive just punishment for thy pride.

no word about everlasting punishment in this book

[martincisneros]

Many, many of the martyrs in China are Pentecostals.  They're the ones that kept getting in trouble for bold preaching and miracles, such as raising the dead.  At a couple of points, they were so scared of that bunch coming and raising a Christian they'd killed from the dead, that they had the dogs eat their body.  It's simply New Testament Christianity going on over there.  They read the Book where He said to heal the sick and raise the dead, and simply go and do it rather than rationalizing themselves out of it.  I believe that there's been religious reform with the state allowing state registered Churches to operate above ground, but because of harassment and continual persecution, much of the Pentecostal Church is still underground.  That country's  always been dear to my heart, as well as Japan.

[martincisneros]

Even if we are willing to cross the threshold into pursuing all truth about everything, we are still faced with the dilemma--now that I know the truth, what do I do about it?  Do I risk everything, even my life, for the truth?

Knowing all things -- when that promise from John's Gospel and from 1John is really fulfilled in a believer's life from having walked it out by faith -- that can be an amazingly lonely place, although it's such a place of intimate knowledge with all things.  Not just isolated by your own words and thoughts, but how much you have to dumb down everything you're going to say if you're going to minister effectively.  All of us have had the experience of bumping into zealous Christians that think that if you know something that you're automatically supposed to share it, and then you share UR with them, and they really wish you'd kept that one to yourself! :laughing7:  Yet, UR is sooo basic.  The more you know, the more you partake in the fellowship of His sufferings with all of the things you can never say to people in this life...or seemingly can never.  (But this is a New Day.) 

Oh, UR folks can get on their high horse about UR shouldn't be withheld and no truth should be withheld, but when I start dropping on them some whoppers about the Hosea 2:18 covenant -- as one example out of many, many others, that's actually one of the easier things to swallow compared to some things -- and you can feel them squirming, even online, and wanting to balk with their alleged liberties in Christ at the continual expense of others.  The very thing they're accusing the denominations of doing, like hypocrites.  So, there's more than one kind of martyrdom and if you really, really grow up into Him in all things, you'll actually have -- proportionate to what you know -- fewer and fewer things that you can share besides your hugs and love.  So, martyrdom can be extremely desireable even in a context where you just can't bare to deal with another imbecile, spiritually speaking, for another x-number of years of this life. 

Oh, you grieve after a while with the Holy Spirit -- not at the shape of the world or of the Church, but out of honestly being sooo ready to cease from your own works as He's ceased from His.  I've said it before, but, it's worth repeating.  If there's a book of the Bible you don't normally spend much time in, and perhaps even purposefully avoid in your Bible reading because of it's brevity or whatever -- ask yourself: what's my carnal mind keeping me from knowing since I haven't read that already for the 155th time today??

[Cardinal]

Many, many of the martyrs in China are Pentecostals.  They're the ones that kept getting in trouble for bold preaching and miracles, such as raising the dead.  At a couple of points, they were so scared of that bunch coming and raising a Christian they'd killed from the dead, that they had the dogs eat their body.  It's simply New Testament Christianity going on over there.  They read the Book where He said to heal the sick and raise the dead, and simply go and do it rather than rationalizing themselves out of it.  I believe that there's been religious reform with the state allowing state registered Churches to operate above ground, but because of harassment and continual persecution, much of the Pentecostal Church is still underground.  That country's  always been dear to my heart, as well as Japan.

:cloud9: Something else that really touches me about their situation in times past (maybe ongoing I don't know), is that bibles had to be smuggled into them A PAGE AT A TIME. So they would meet secretly after having memorized one of these newly smuggled pages and EATEN IT, then they would quietly share with one another what was read of this new page. They would silently rejoice over it's contents, and silently sing praise to God.

Now WHAT was ANY of OUR gripes again? God help them and strengthen them this day, Amen. Blessings...

PS. If none of you have ever seen the TBN produced movie, "China Cry", you should find a copy of it and watch it.

[preistsplace]

Talking about being a martyr and being one are two totally different things.

When death looks one in the eyes, and you can simply backpeddle to get away from it (cause gee, all people are gonna be saved anyhow), back peddling is exactly what most everyone will do.

But on the other hand, if one believes that to deny their faith in Christ is to be denied by him, then the motivation is 1000 times stronger to stick with one's conviction to the very end.

I've been on both ends of the stick, and the motivation for me to do right (stick with my faith in Christ) is much stronger now, for me then when I was a URist.  And that is the truth, straight and simple.

My two cents.

Love is my motivation , I would Die to protect my wife and children,and I hold Jesus even above them , Would I not too then die for him?

[Cardinal]

I've been on both ends of the stick, and the motivation for me to do right (stick with my faith in Christ) is much stronger now, for me then when I was a URist.  And that is the truth, straight and simple.

:cloud9: That is the truth, but that was/is a temporary condition that results from that revelation of UR. He is not without tests in this walk; most you don't ever gain knowledge of until they have PASSED, else it would not be a true test.

How many do you suppose fall away from being "at ease IN ZION", never pressing in further to come into the fullness of His love, thinking; "after all, what is the use since they are all to be saved?"

What do you suppose MADE them to be "at ease" in that passage of scripture I quoted? (smile) Blessings....

[martincisneros]

PS. If none of you have ever seen the TBN produced movie, "China Cry", you should find a copy of it and watch it.

Not sure if I've still got my copy.  It would be as miraculous as the life of Nora Lamb if I did with the fire/flood that hit my place this past January.  But that is still one of my favorite movies and I intend to own another copy if I don't have my copy any more.  Now, that movie, I would likely prioritize another copy of "someday."  It's definitely a must see.  I've seen it enough times to where I could mentally replay it right now, or large segments of it, and still have a tear or two over a scene or two from just the memories of the movie.  That movie and TBN's more recent "One Night With The King" are two absolute musts of God's saving/delivering work in the lives of women in circumstances that here "in the West" we really don't know anything about those kinds of circumstances and governments. 

And I don't see how the issue of ET was the least bit related/relevant to the perseverance of faith of either woman in either story. 

Has nothing to do with doing His Will. 

Has nothing to do with being able to trust Him. 

Has nothing to do with being saved from sin and saved by Him from and/or in our circumstances. 

Has nothing to do with the completion of His Work in our lives.

[Tim B]

If the Apostles and early Christians martyred themselves because they believed in ET, it must have been fear motivated. But, ya know, Origen seems to contradict that as being a reason to martyr oneself. It proves nothing in my opinion, aside from that the early Christians honestly believed that Jesus truly rose from the dead, and as it would appear, physically rose from the dead!