Is it kindness that causes change or punishment?

[Gabe Grinstead]

My brother was convicted of his second DUI.  I thought he had learned his lesson with his first one, he faced a little bit of jail time and was fined a hefty amount as well as losing his license.  He knew he had a problem with alcohal and seemed willing to really tackle the issues.

Now, what I find interesting is that my parrents are always willing to help.  Certainly I can understand this because he is their son.  How can you not love your son? How can you not help him out in his suffering.  It seems to me they can back up what they do with claiming that is is God's kindless that causes one to repent, not his punishments.

However, I am not really sure on this particular instance.  Part of me says that he will never learn if he does not have to face his consequences. But, I also don't want to see my brother homeless.  So what does a parent do?  What can you do as a parent if your child continues to make foolish decisions well into his thirties? What is the Christian thing to do?

I can see it from both angles, but I am not entirely sure which one should be considered the correct approach.  Obviously I love my brother, and that love wants him to LEARN so that he does not have to make these very bad decisions.  But, part of me also wants to show sympathy and bail him out, as an act of kindness.

I know the proverbs talks about a foolish son being a very sad thing for a mother (and father) and I think that is probably the most difficult thing for a parent, to not see their child grow and become self sufficient.

What is the Biblical response? And why?

Thanks,

Gabe

[Dean]

Gabe,

Thank you for sharing your story.

Alcoholism is a family disease. It is an Obssesion in the mind, bonded with a Compulsion in the body...for alcohol. It is NOT a choice, it is a disease and there is no cure for it ...But... millions have experienced the removal of their Obssesion and Compulsion for alcohol and drugs while the transforming of their minds will continue through out their lives. IMO...alcoholism does not become alcoholwasim.

Alcoholics...drug addics...sex addics...workaholics...people pleasing and controlling addics...religion addics...shopping addics...food addics...fantasy addics...worry addics...and on and on ALL have the SAME process of obssesion in the mind and compulsion in the body. One drink, hit, line, is to many and a thousand is not enough. An addict has no defense against the SECOND drink.

With the spirit of willingness and the admission of powerlessness over alcohol... ANY alcoholic, ANY IC.. is well on their way to a new way of life.

Praying for whoever God chooses to carry the message of HOPE and the PROMISE of FREEDOM to my addicted family members, is my part. The best gift I can give my family is a healthy me, understanding and encouragement. Five years ago I began attending meetings for the families of alcoholics. I experienced more love and wisdom in the rooms of Al-Anon...AA...NA... in 6 months than I did in 25 years of church going.

Seven years ago the old raspy voiced guy on the AA hot line told me...after I had called them as a desperate last resort..."Your wife  (ex) is going to die an alcoholic..maybe from liver disease maybe in a car accident, lets hope she doesn't kill anyone else.
  OR she is not going to die as an active alcoholic..and there in nothing you can do about that. Now about you.  You have lived in this disease for a long time...You are SICK to...PAL! You need to go to AL Anon".

That conversation lasted less than three minutes and God has used it to change MY life.

Gabe, your parents and your brother.. are IN my prayers.

Dean

[Barbara]

I have experienced some of the same problems with one of my daughters and always struggled on the tough love issue. She had caused many, many, problems in our home by rebellion. drugs and drinking. Had a baby out of welock and wasn't mature enough to take care of.I constantly rescued her. It was too painful to see her suffer and when the baby came along I helped her even more. This went on for years and until I felt God was telling me I had to let go. During the Christmas holidays I finally sent her out in the street to fend for herself. I had to keep the baby and she left. It was the hardest thing I ever done but deep inside I knew it was the only thing to do. Those years of unconditional love on out part was necessary to bring her to that point. I think she knew in her heart that it was the right thing to do. There is a time under the sun to keep and let go. I don't regret all the pain either way. She is now in her 30's, married with 2 children and raisies her kids with values that we taught her. I believe your family will do what is right for them and it is all in timing.  Stay hopeful and keep praying.
Hope this helps. 

[Redlettervoice]

No one should tell another what to "do" ........each person should "do" what they feel led to "do"
and be free to "do" it!  Every situation is different.  The Spirit of God may lead one - one way,
and another, quite the opposite.  I had a friend who MIRACOULOUSLY was delivered from alcholol
and he got to thinking "anyone can "do" it" but they can't, and what he forgot was that it was
not something that "he" did, but something that God did.  God "does" use the AA with some.

Every parent has to make their decesions based on their own hearts.  Until God Himself speaks to a
person, how can others tell them what to "do?"  It is things like that that will get you tried!!

It is the "goodness" of God that leads one to repentance.
Bible.

And "all" things work together for "good" to them that love the Lord.

Have to remind myself of that every once in a whlle.

I witnessed an older lady today, struggling to "see"...she is nearly blind....and to "walk" ......they say she is Church of Christ, I
don't know.....but my HEART has always gone out to her, so today when someone else was chiding with
her misunderstanding every word of the conversation, and her saying "you gotta be some denomination"
you know I just felt to "give her a hug" ....a REAL heart felt hug!
It is the LORD in us who is able to be touched with the feelings of anothers infirmity. really honestly I wish
I could "feel" for everyone what I felt for that lady, but I don't and no use in saying that I do.....
It is awful being a human. And it is God who fills our hearts with love for "anyone" alchololic one way
or the other...........on literal alcholol or on doctrine that we have eaten to the gills.

Be not drunk means more than corn whiskey.

[Barbara]

Redletter

I hope you didn't think I was telling her what to do. I just shared my experience. Did you think I was doing that?   

[Kratos]

I know that this will sound almost cliche, but the Biblical answer is to be led by the Spirit and to speak and move as He leads. I have a brother like this and have been that brither before myself. Only God knows the heart of another to know when tough love is better and when grace is better.

I do know how you feel because my Mom is 75 years old and still working. I asked her again to retire and to take it a little easy as she has enough to live comfortably on SSI. Her response was that she works so she can save extra in case one of us needs something like the car she just bought for my 50 year old brother so he could get a new job. I told her that this is the time in life that we are there if she has something come up where she needs help, but that is my Mom for you.

John

[Pierac]

You have a wonderful mom John!   :cloud9:

Always thinking of her childern.  :HeartThrob:

[Redlettervoice]

Redletter

I hope you didn't think I was telling her what to do. I just shared my experience. Did you think I was doing that?   

No, dearheart, I "understood" your heart!

I have just heard people try to get others to do it the way "they" or "someone they knew" did it, and
observed that whatever works is what to "do" for truly everyone responds to things differently.
Ultimately, GOD alone can deliver, but just uses different means..........that's all I was saying.
Do not me intimidated one bit by ME, I am surely approachable...........what a mess "i" am, and
who can help ME, not with alcohol, but other issues in my life. ha

[hopeful]

Hi Gabe,   :dsunny:

I think it's wonderful that you care about your brother and your parents!
I agree with Red and John, that the biblical response is to be led by the Spirit. 
There are no clear cut rules to go by when it comes to these type of situations. 
Love can look like many different things. 
Everyone is different and God knows best how to deal with each one. 
I think we should be praying, "Father, what do you want to do in this situation?"

We have a son...
The Lord has led us to respond to him in different ways at different times. 
We probably look confused or wishy washy to others but we are just trying to follow the Lord.  And yes we were/are confused and hurting so it's not necessarily easy to discern clearly.  We made a lot of mistakes and may be making some now, too but we do want what's best for our son.

In these type of family problems, emotions can run high and it's not easy to hold back words spoken in the heat of emotion. 
Whatever your parents do, they are hurting and your love for them will be a comfort.   :HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

each person should "do" what they feel led to "do"
and be free to "do" it!  Every situation is different.  The Spirit of God may lead one - one way,
and another, quite the opposite

I share those thoughts Red :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy

[shibboleth]

I got a DUI over 20 years ago and I that was enough for me. I was put into an outpatient treatment program and AA. I am truly grateful that God had mercy on me, because I probably would have killed myself or someone else if I hadn't gotten a DUI. I truly feel for you as you try to do the right thing with your brother. My brother, unfortunately, killed himself because of his alcohol and drug abuse. My mom would bail him out of jail over and over again. I used to tell her to let him sweat it out, but she couldn't. Now, I would tell her to do what she had to do. I wouldn't judge her because she wasn't responsible for my brother's behaviour. You and your family aren't responsible for your brother's behaviour either. I truly feel for you and your family, it can be really hard going through these times because we are usually at a loss of what to do.

[God_Chaser_007]

My grandmother (74 yrs old) is still looking after her 42 yr old son who has had alcohol and gambling problems. He also has schizophrenia on top of this. The only thing I could suggest without sounding too lame is LOVE. I see the pain my grandmother goes through, he sells her things so he has money to gamble etc, but the one thing that i have seen which has been constant is the Love she has for him. Its been years but he is slowly changing.

I pray your parents will not have to live with this and deal with this for the years to come.

GC

[Taffy]

My grandmother (74 yrs old) is still looking after her 42 yr old son who has had alcohol and gambling problems. He also has schizophrenia on top of this. The only thing I could suggest without sounding too lame is LOVE. I see the pain my grandmother goes through, he sells her things so he has money to gamble etc, but the one thing that i have seen which has been constant is the Love she has for him. Its been years but he is slowly changing.

Hi Chaser

Thats so encouraging :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy

[rosered]

  wow Red what a blessing you are sis ! amen ! its the Lord who saves us , i really feel the living soul [adam ] is the part  that dies in its sins
  until that happens  :sigh: the Spirit of the LORD rises up to take charge of our lives , fist is  the spirit of repentance , and you got to be so sick of the very things you hate and have become , its no fun to be a slave  to your will  [desires] of sin against Gods will [desire ][ for us to have this  saving greace
  i was doing a study on the impossible with man[mans impossible  will  the soulish side that cannot rest  with His Holy Spirit working within ]  but WITH  GOD all things are POSSIBLE ....AND  WITH GOD , not against  God all things DO work togerther for the good  of those who Love Him and are called according to His  purpose ,
   while we were yet sinners Christ died for us [all] so when Christ lays down His life for whomsoever He wills He takes it back up again , and how many times is this possible with God ?
i cannot limit the Love of  GOD  for when we do we find we have  come  in to a prison
  within our own hearts  divided ,,,,,,,,,

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 101
1) impossible

a) not to have strength, power, or ability, to be weak

b) can not be done, to be impossible 102

1) without strength, impotent, powerless, weakly, disabled

2) unable to be done, impossible


Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. ) able, powerful, mighty, strong

a) mighty in wealth and influence

b) strong in soul

1) to bear calamities and trials with fortitude and patience

2) strong in Christian virtue

2) to be able (to do something)

a) mighty, excelling in something

b) having power for something



Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come! 1) that cannot be admitted, inadmissible, unallowable, improper
from G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of the same as G1735

    seeing Jesus soul as the offering sis , its always acceptible  to God
  His soul  was exceedingly sorrowful unto death , even the death of the cross  , its the power of the Cross[ being turned over to the hands  of sinners]  and the Glory of God made known
 
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren. :dsunny: life and soul are interchangeable meaning the same thing ...
  love rose

[Caitlyn Alexander]

There IS NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL.  Of this I am convinced and will be very adamant.

There is a difference between KINDNESS and ENABLING.  It is possible to be KIND without being ENABLING.
Some (rightly I think) call this "tough love".  BUT BEWARE ... there is a FAKE version of "tough love" out there by which people justify themselves for being cruel, unfeeling, uncaring, sometimes even downright hostile and condemnatory toward others.  That is NOT "tough love" for that is not "love" of ANY sort.  It is NEVER "love" (tough or otherwise) to strip a person down emotionally, to tell them off, to criticize, condemn, belittle, insult, mock, or in ANY way make them feel any less than valued, cherished, loved, special, and precious to God.

But it is always appropriate to draw boundaries -- to say "I helped you with X and Y before but I'm worried I only made it easier for you to continue hurting yourself, so until you can commit to not hurting yourself anymore, I cannot offer those things again."  Or something like that.  There are MANY ways to be "kind" and to "be there" for others.  You do not always have to open your home or your wallet to do so.  A ride to rehab ... a check - in to see if they are keeping up with counseling ... a listening ear for an hour or two weekly ... all are good things, and show kindness.

Punishment doesn't help except as a last resort.  Generally (in my opinion) people do best seeing the effects of REAL and NATURAL consequences.  Artificially imposed ones just create resentments and clutter up the dynamics of learning.  When people impose artificial consequences on one another most of the time it is from human flesh and pique, not anything real.  When real consequences ensue from actions, that teaches people.  We can only pray those real consequences are not deadly, of course, to themselves or others.  Of course some "imposed" consequences -- products of human society like laws against possession of drugs, etc. -- are unavoidable.  I'm getting off track here.  My point is, most people resort to "punitive" measures because they don't have the patience it takes to model consistent lovingkindness.  You see, when using lovingkindness with someone, if it does not produce immediate tangible results, we tend to feel "used".  But when using punitive measures, even if it does not produce immediate tangible results, we feel "justified" because we exercised our flesh, our desire to punish and revenge/avenge ourselves, to exercise that impulse to do harm to another in retribution for what we perceive as them harming us by the offense of their behavior or by the emotional strain of watching them hurt themselves. That's why punishment is attractive to people, I think, and love and kindness seem so hard.

[Kept]

This is a beautiful thread, what wonderful words from the family to each other.

I was delivered of alcohol and drug addiction in a twinkling of an eye in 1983. I have no idea to this day why God chose to do it that way with me and takes others down a long painful road to freedom in that area.

I too travel that long painful road in other areas of my life. I think we all do, have things that God just took care of in a moment, it was gone. Then other things we must painfully endure and get freedom from inch by inch.

But in it all, He is God!

kept

[hopeful]

Amen, Kept.  Those inch by inch ones are a test but we learn so much through those inches!   :HeartThrob: