Is It Even Possible for God to WILL and Not Do His Will?

[Tim B]

1 Timothy 2:4

Young Literal Translation:

"⁴who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;"

Amplified Bible

"⁴Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth."

So, looking at these verses, the amplified bible suggest that God wishes all men to be saved, whilst the young literal translation says God wills all men to be saved. But the question is more of this, even if God just simply wishes that all men be saved, being omniscient and omnipotent, would God, in all reality, really create certain people to go to Hell (the place of eternal torture/eternal conscious torment) as the orthodox view of Christianity teaches?

I mean, think about it: God creates a person that (for the sake of argument) has free will. God knows (because He is omniscient) that in creating this person that this person will reject his Son and so go to Hell.

Sounds reasonable enough, until you realize that God really wishes that this person would have been saved.

So why would God create a being that he wished to be saved but that he knew would reject his Son and end up going to Hell?

Does God wish all men to be saved, but has a higher desire for them to only freely choose him, and so allows himself to create beings that will not freely choose him, even if that means they'll end up in Hell?

Does God have two wills? Honestly, before I became a believer in UR, I used to somehow think that God wanted all men to be saved, but couldn't save them (unless they chose to follow accept Jesus within this lifetime). But now the whole idea behind it sounds ridiculous!!

I'm beginning to realize, I think, that if God even wishes something, then he will provide for his desired outcome to be fulfilled.

What do you guys think? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the idea that God, in some way or another, seems to have "two wills".

[WhiteWings]

Things like wish/want/desires are human words that don't really apply to God.
I wish things. I want things. Many never happen. It's hoping for something I don't have full control over.
For God such things don't exist.
He can't hope/want/desire/etc simply because it's done the moment He finished thinking about it.

We all know what will/want/desire/etc means on a human scale.
But on a devine scale it simply means "a completed fact"

Just go back to the time Jesus lived on earth. When a Roman ruler said to his servants I want/desire grapes what do you think those servants would do. Discuss ceasar likes fruit? Or run as fast as they can to get grapes?
All the wants/desires of such a ruler where commands.
Would it be any less for the biggest ruler of all???

[lsmann2]

1 Timothy 2:4

Young Literal Translation:

"⁴who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;"

Amplified Bible

"⁴Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth."

So, looking at these verses, the amplified bible suggest that God wishes all men to be saved, whilst the young literal translation says God wills all men to be saved. But the question is more of this, even if God just simply wishes that all men be saved, being omniscient and omnipotent, would God, in all reality, really create certain people to go to Hell (the place of eternal torture/eternal conscious torment) as the orthodox view of Christianity teaches?

I mean, think about it: God creates a person that (for the sake of argument) has free will. God knows (because He is omniscient) that in creating this person that this person will reject his Son and so go to Hell.

Sounds reasonable enough, until you realize that God really wishes that this person would have been saved.

So why would God create a being that he wished to be saved but that he knew would reject his Son and end up going to Hell?

Does God wish all men to be saved, but has a higher desire for them to only freely choose him, and so allows himself to create beings that will not freely choose him, even if that means they'll end up in Hell?

Does God have two wills? Honestly, before I became a believer in UR, I used to somehow think that God wanted all men to be saved, but couldn't save them (unless they chose to follow accept Jesus within this lifetime). But now the whole idea behind it sounds ridiculous!!

I'm beginning to realize, I think, that if God even wishes something, then he will provide for his desired outcome to be fulfilled.

What do you guys think? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the idea that God, in some way or another, seems to have "two wills".

You're going down the same road that led me into my belief of UR. I would only add;
If God "wants" something, is He going to get it?........
I'm very comfortable in saying yes, He will get what He wants.
Paul tells us that not everyone will receive life thru Christ at the same time.(1st Cor.15) Each class will be given that life "in thier own order". God isn't calling everyone to believe today. He's calling out a few to bless the many.
Just as He called out Israel to bless all the nations of the earth,(a promise He's yet to fufill) He's calling a few today to bless the principalities and powers in the heavenlies through our appearing with Christ (as His Body) in the future.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy WILL be done, IN EARTH, even as it is in heaven.

His Kingdom is not of this world, but it is here, it is nigh thee, Jesus said. When Jesus prayed what He heard His Father speak, it was a done deal, and all of creation will walk it out, one way or another. Blessings....

[lsmann2]

:cloud9: Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy WILL be done, IN EARTH, even as it is in heaven.

His Kingdom is not of this world, but it is here, it is nigh thee, Jesus said. When Jesus prayed what He heard His Father speak, it was a done deal, and all of creation will walk it out, one way or another. Blessings....

Cardinal,
I can see from your post that you are anticipating the Kingdom of Christ here on earth. It will be a wonderful time for those in the land.
Since I am not Jewish, nor do I keep the Law (or even know it),I have a different anticipation. I believe that my hope is to appear with Christ, in the heavenlies.
While you are fufilling your priestly duties here on earth, I'll be in the heavens ministering to the principalities and powers that are there.
Two glories, one terrestrial, one celestial. Both will show God's glory to all creation.

Lee

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: While I am of Jewish descent after the natural man, that has nothing to do with my anticipation. I'm not anticipating it, it's already here, IN MY EARTH (Adam was taken from the DUST of the earth). We are the temple, and our God is the King/Priest, and wherever the temple is, there is the King/Priest, in His temple.

In essence, He had us praying for what was to come on the day of Pentecost, when the Holy fire was released and brought into the temple, never to go out.

As for appearing with Christ in the heavenlies, YOU are the cloud (also means DUST, the smallest particle of a thing, combined with the water of His Spirit), that He's going to appear in, if you have been seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus. Compare with those in Jude who are clouds WITHOUT water, swept away by every wind of doctrine.

And yes, I am anticipating if so by the grace of God, HIM fulfilling His priestly duties FROM HEAVEN IN ME as a King, upon the earth and to the earthen vessels of men, as the High Priest of our confession, the high calling in Christ Jesus Paul said he was pressing in for. Halleluyah! I see the day FAST approaching. Blessings....

[lsmann2]

:cloud9: While I am of Jewish descent after the natural man, that has nothing to do with my anticipation. I'm not anticipating it, it's already here, IN MY EARTH (Adam was taken from the DUST of the earth). We are the temple, and our God is the King/Priest, and wherever the temple is, there is the King/Priest, in His temple.

In essence, He had us praying for what was to come on the day of Pentecost, when the Holy fire was released and brought into the temple, never to go out.

As for appearing with Christ in the heavenlies, YOU are the cloud (also means DUST, the smallest particle of a thing, combined with the water of His Spirit), that He's going to appear in, if you have been seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus. Compare with those in Jude who are clouds WITHOUT water, swept away by every wind of doctrine.

And yes, I am anticipating if so by the grace of God, HIM fulfilling His priestly duties FROM HEAVEN IN ME as a King, upon the earth and to the earthen vessels of men, as the High Priest of our confession, the high calling in Christ Jesus Paul said he was pressing in for. Halleluyah! I see the day FAST approaching. Blessings....

WOW! You're on a whole other plane from me. God bless! :msealed:

[Beloved Servant]

That was wonderful Cardinal.
Just wonderful.

[lookingup]

i think God has made it plain what He wants,  the scriptures that have been submitted are evidence of that, here are a few more that witness what he desires:

Isaiah 55:8-13 -  8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Ezekiel 33:10,11
10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

To me He has said it all and leaves no room for doubt as to what He has planned the end to be

                                                 Blessings ya'll
                                                         Henry

[legoman]

i think God has made it plain what He wants,  the scriptures that have been submitted are evidence of that, here are a few more that witness what he desires:

Isaiah 55:8-13 -  8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Ezekiel 33:10,11
10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

To me He has said it all and leaves no room for doubt as to what He has planned the end to be

                                                 Blessings ya'll
                                                         Henry

:thumbsup:  Also this verse:

Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
       from ancient times, what is still to come.
       I say: My purpose will stand,
       and I will do all that I please.

What does God please (desire)?  To save all men!  QED.

[trettep]

1 Timothy 2:4

Young Literal Translation:

"⁴who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;"

Amplified Bible

"⁴Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth."

So, looking at these verses, the amplified bible suggest that God wishes all men to be saved, whilst the young literal translation says God wills all men to be saved. But the question is more of this, even if God just simply wishes that all men be saved, being omniscient and omnipotent, would God, in all reality, really create certain people to go to Hell (the place of eternal torture/eternal conscious torment) as the orthodox view of Christianity teaches?

I mean, think about it: God creates a person that (for the sake of argument) has free will. God knows (because He is omniscient) that in creating this person that this person will reject his Son and so go to Hell.

Sounds reasonable enough, until you realize that God really wishes that this person would have been saved.

So why would God create a being that he wished to be saved but that he knew would reject his Son and end up going to Hell?

Does God wish all men to be saved, but has a higher desire for them to only freely choose him, and so allows himself to create beings that will not freely choose him, even if that means they'll end up in Hell?

Does God have two wills? Honestly, before I became a believer in UR, I used to somehow think that God wanted all men to be saved, but couldn't save them (unless they chose to follow accept Jesus within this lifetime). But now the whole idea behind it sounds ridiculous!!

I'm beginning to realize, I think, that if God even wishes something, then he will provide for his desired outcome to be fulfilled.

What do you guys think? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the idea that God, in some way or another, seems to have "two wills".

God accomplishes everything He desires (wishes).  So we can rest assured that when God says He desires (wishes) for All men to be saved that it will indeed happen.

Paul

[legoman]

Its nice hearing how other people were led to UR.  Know what really did it for me (other than reading this and other sites)?  Finally just looking at 1 Tim 2:4.

I think when I believed in ET, I had just never even seen that verse before.  I had read my bible a bit, but it was in the typical "glazed over" fashion.  Read some verses, have no idea what they meant, and then nod off.

When I actually sat down and read 1 Tim 2:4 over a few times, and thought about the implications, it just floored me.  If God wants all to be saved, then why aren't all saved?  Is God really that weak that He can't get what He wants?  It does not compute if you are honest about what it means to be an infinite God.  And then I discovered the other verses mentioned here later on in my journey (God will do all that He desires) and that only confirmed it.

Too many people are willing to put God in a box, and only "allow" him to save a person if that person "wants" to be saved.

[sarcasm mode on]
God forbid that He should actually *purpose* something that would cause an individual to be saved.  No, we can't have that, because then that would interefere with MAN's will.  And we know MAN is sovereign right?  :winkgrin:

I mean look at Paul, He only converted to Christ of his own choice right?  God appearing in a booming voice and blinding Him had NOTHING to do with Paul being converted?
[sarcasm mode off]

Interesting note about Paul's conversion: notice that SAUL was destroyed and replaced with PAUL.  The wicked truly are destroyed!

Peace...

[lookingup]

A while back i listened to and watched one of Ray Smiths' videos, in it he was talking about 1 Tim 2:4 and 4:10 and asked the question(knowing the answer) Do we have any scripture that says: "will not have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth"

and any scripture that says "the living God, who is not the Saviour of all men"

of course the answer is no                                    :happygrin:

[WhiteWings]

Hi Looking Up,

I remember it a little different.

First he was saying "God saves all" means "God saves a few" according to ETs
Then he added not to the verse.
"God not saves all"
So in both cases God doesn't save all.

[legoman]

Hi Looking Up,

I remember it a little different.

First he was saying "God saves all" means "God saves a few" according to ETs
Then he added not to the verse.
"God not saves all"
So in both cases God doesn't save all.

Ah yes I remember that article.  That was a turning point for me when I read it.

If the verse said:  "God, who will NOT have all men to be saved", then ETers would be jumping all over it saying not all will be saved.

But since the verse actually says:  "God, who will have all men to be saved", ETers still claim, nope, not all will be saved!

The human mind is amazing sometimes...  and this isn't even getting into the other "interpretation".  No no no ALL only means ALL TYPES of men.  Yeesh...

[lookingup]

Sorry for the misquotes guys, i will in the future do a backstep and reread before treading forward           :mblush:

[legoman]

Sorry for the misquotes guys, i will in the future do a backstep and reread before treading forward           :mblush:

Oh I don't think it was a misquote lookingup.  I remember the quote you mentioned as well...  :thumbsup:

[Tim B]

Something else I like about UR is that it's definitely more philosophically satisfying than ET. :)

And btw, thanks for all the posts!

[jabcat]

In the greek, there is apparently a difference in the sense of urgency/intensity/seriousness of the words 'will' and 'wish'.

There is a "milder" word for wish...when scripture speaks of God 'will-ing' a thing, it is a different word.

Wish is euchomai.  The Greek for WILL is thelo or thelema.  Different words.  If God just wished all would be saved but it wasn't going to happen, why bother using different words?  Just let God wish, and whatever happens will happen...time will tell how mankind decides and chooses, don't you think?   :Yeahright: