What is "satan"?

[Kevin]

Forum,
Alpha and Omega,

God is the same from the beginning to end.

[Livelystone]

A thousand years brings forth a different day but it may well only be seconds apart from the "day" that is a dispensation in time separating it from that "day" that was immediately preceding it.

I experienced that GWT scene exactly as it is written in the Bible when I did not know it was in the Bible when within a couple of seconds I went from this life as we know it to "another day", through flat lining and stood before the GWT to be judged. I see no reason not to believe that everyone else will not participate in the same scenario within seconds of their death even though the Bible speaks of 1000 years before their resurrection. (Those who are not amongst the dead in Christ that are alive in this life for their resurrection)

Moving on from what was experienced to speculation personally I do not believe you can have an LOF that is a body of drops made up drops of fire just as a real lake made up of drops of water without the "sons of God whom are those "drops of fire" that will make up the LOF of God.

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Personally, I think all the confusion regarding the 1000 year thing is easily explained with the revelation that; THAT day, the 7th day, IS Christ, who IS SPIRIT, in which there is NO TIME (because time is the measurement of death), and there is NO DEATH, and therefore NO TIME, IN HIS SPIRIT, which IS LIFE. Blessings.....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

Sorry it took so long but here is

PART TWO -- The BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET...

You know, it's interesting that even in the old testament when God had many opportunities to put forth knowledge of post-mortem torments, he didn't. In looking at the OT as a whole, I find it very interesting to note that as bad as some of the punishments for sin were, they were all temporal. It would seem from the scriptural witness of Revelation that only the adversary (Satan; whatever he/ it is), beast and false prophet suffer torments for the ages (2 ages) of the ages (total ages). Everyone else cast in to the LOF simply dies (2nd death) and remains dead until the consummation. Perhaps Satan is already suffering those torments now, depending on "when" we see the 'millennium' beginning.  I've heard some authors say Satan/beast/false prophet will be/ are tormented during the millennium age and the new heavens/new earth age.

I have already (IMO) jettisoned the idea that the "millennium" is a "period of time", now to --

THE BEAST:


The symbolic term, "BEAST" as it appears in Rev 20:10 I find is mentioned in Gen 3:1 -- the SERPENT that was more SUBTIL than any BEAST of the field...  What "beast" is the most SUBTLE in the forest? (field)

This subject immediately brings back the "disney film" BAMBI!  :laughing7:

MAN was in the forest!  The BEAST is MAN... the SERPENT is the transgression--oriented nature of the FLESH... which prompts man via TEMPTATION to SIN -- James 1:14

It is THIS nature, that EVE conversed with, and we ALL converse with!

MEN are noted as BEASTS in Scripture: 

Psalms 73:22 -- David admits himself (a BEAST) before GOD

Ecc 3:18 -- in Black & white -- MEN ...R... BEASTS!

Psalms 49:12 -- plain & simple, MEN are as BEASTS...

Psalms 49:20  Man is LIKE BEASTS...

The depiction of the BEAST in the Lake of FIRE and BRIMSTONE, is the NATURE of MAN... which is (even though the highest) just another BEAST...

Notice that "satan" was cast into the LOF, and is the ADVERSITY which is the NATURE of the FLESH... which DECIEVES us...

EVE was said to be in the "DECEPTION" -- not by some "omnipresent demon"... but her own LUST brought forth that DECEPTION...


THE FALSE PROPHET:


The FALSE PROPHET was also in the LOF...  What do the Scriptures say of this entity?  Is this entity within THIS LIFE?  Oh YES! :yes:

Matt 24:7   MANY shall come IN MY NAME, saying that I am CHRIST [testifying of JESUS], and shall DECIEVE -- MANY!

A "FALSE PROPHET" teaches FALSE teachings... DECEPTION will ALWAYS use elements of TRUTH to persuade its victims...  Which is evident in this verse.  These COME (as MANY) -- in the NAME of CHRIST... yet they DECIEVE... MANY!

It is VERY significant that MANY are these... and MANY are their victims... Is this seen in Christianity?  well so sorry to say, ...Of course IT IS!  :dontknow:

This FALSE PROPHET has been around a LONG TIME:

Jer 14:14 -- Then YHVH said unto me, the PROPHETS prophesy LIES ...IN MY NAME... I sent them NOT... neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them,  they prophesy a FALSE VISION and DIVINATION and a thing of nought, and the DECEIT of their HEART...

This verse sounds very much like Matt 24:7, doesn't it?

If you will, ...Read -- Jer 13:16-27 -- the FALSE GOSPEL has been taught all along!  FEW have dedicated their hearts to the TRUTH... MOST wish to be part of the WHOLE... and being an OUTCAST doesn't "work" WELL for them...  :sigh:

Teaching UNCOMMANDED, ILLOGICAL and FEARFUL teachings -- such as HELL... and ETERNAL torment, or the threat of ETERNAL separation from GOD, not to mention resurrecting IDOLS such as the -- the Trinity, Free will, Fallen angels, and "satan" as a being who dominates ALL, everywhere at once! 

The FALSE PROPHET is ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY -- and She has been here in the Lake of FIRE & BRIMSTONE a LONG time... 

She was wearing in a "JEW suit" preaching (prophesying - Jer 14:14) IN THE NAME of YHVH, for a long while, and then a few thousand years ago, ...traded that wardrobe in for a "CHRISTIAN suit", and now preaches (prophesies -- Matt 24:7) IN THE NAME of CHRIST... working together with her INNER co-conspiritors "satan" and the "BEAST"...

Right here, in the ...LAKE OF FIRE and BRIMSTONE!

More later bro, gotta go nite-nite!  :laughhand:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[claypot]

Eve was tempted the very SAME WAY ALL men are tempted --

James 1:14  ...but ...EVERY MAN... is TEMPTED -- WHEN he (she) is DRAWN away of his (her) own lust, and enticed.



Quote from: legoman on May 18, 2009, 08:34:08 AM
I can sort of see this.  Satan is like our inner voice that convinces us its OK to eat the forbidden fruit.

If we seek harmony in the Scriptures, Eve's experience MUST be the same as James 1:14 notes it to be for EVERY man (woman)...

Hey All, this thread is very good! Above is some talk between Willie and Legoman and I just wanted to add my 2 cents.........

I totally agree with Willie that the spiritual is the only road to our Spiritual Father. I see Adam and Eve as representing spirit and soul. This makes so much sense to me and seems to fit in Scripture everywhere man and woman are talked about. Adam being our spirit while Eve is a persons soul. As long as the spirit is dominant then all goes well yet when our soul is dominant then 'all hell breaks loose'.

In the garden (our minds) Adam (our spiritual essence), Eve (our soulish essence) and satan (our adversarial or carnal nature) reside. Each person is a garden. Like in the garden, all seemed to be going well until Eve started to take over......conversing with the serpent, giving fruit to Adam.........

God, I love this Book, the Bible!

cp

[claypot]

I find it interesting that God basically brings in a serpent into His garden.

Willie, do you see all of life as kind of going on in God's mind? Is He kind of thinking out loud?

cp

[willieH]

willieH: Hi CP... :hithere:

I find it interesting that God basically brings in a serpent into His garden.

Willie, do you see all of life as kind of going on in God's mind? Is He kind of thinking out loud?

cp

Now wouldn't that be interesting, if that is what all this is?  GOD "thinking out loud"?

I am not sure, but when it comes down to it... all that "actions" are, ...are nothing but THOUGHTS put into the EXTERNAL realm!  Even then, ALL THOUGHT is not manifest into "action"... sometimes, a "thought" just remains a thought. 

So in truth, ...there is much more going on in the "thought world" than in the "real world"!

ALL songs, inventions, business concepts, what's for dinner, WHATEVER... The whole doggone sh-bang is found born in "thought" first, ...then, sometimes an action follows!

So to discount EVE in the Garden, having a convo with herself, ...or GOD with Himself in the book of JOB, to me, dismisses one of the great and PRIMARY aspects of "LIVING" and "THINKING" beings!  :dontknow:

I admit and have admitted that I don't know everything, but one thing I do know... and that is that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD, including "thinking to Himself"!

peace CP...  :Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[claypot]

So to discount EVE in the Garden, having a convo with herself, ...or GOD with Himself in the book of JOB, to me, dismisses one of the great and PRIMARY aspects of "LIVING" and "THINKING" beings!  :dontknow:

Hey Willie, I am not understanding what you wrote here.

And I want to pursue your thoughts on the lake of fire. You did say you think the lake of fire is a present thing, didn't you? I have been pondering this all night between sleep.

Thanks for your patience in these things. I have read and re-read your words much in the past few days and they are doing a work on and in me. Thanks again.

cp

[claypot]

Lake of fire is the decond death, is what I read. Any thoughts on how this life is the second death?

cp

[Livelystone]

Lake of fire is the decond death, is what I read. Any thoughts on how this life is the second death?

cp

Man is living their first death from the time of their birth......... we are born into the valley of death

[claypot]

Hi L,

I can understand how this 'life' is death but where does the second death come into play? Is it when we die to this 'death' (second death/lake of fire) that we go on to life?

cp

[Livelystone]

Hi L,

I can understand how this 'life' is death but where does the second death come into play? Is it when we die to this 'death' (second death/lake of fire) that we go on to life?

cp

Really don't know

Some could well be living out (and/or find it) their second death in this life and for them it will not hurt them

IMO it is something all will find at some point and if not in this life as we know it to be then after it............. but as I said that is IMO as an educated guess but that is all.

Blessings

Doug

[Doc]

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

Sorry it took so long but here is

PART TWO -- The BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET...

You know, it's interesting that even in the old testament when God had many opportunities to put forth knowledge of post-mortem torments, he didn't. In looking at the OT as a whole, I find it very interesting to note that as bad as some of the punishments for sin were, they were all temporal. It would seem from the scriptural witness of Revelation that only the adversary (Satan; whatever he/ it is), beast and false prophet suffer torments for the ages (2 ages) of the ages (total ages). Everyone else cast in to the LOF simply dies (2nd death) and remains dead until the consummation. Perhaps Satan is already suffering those torments now, depending on "when" we see the 'millennium' beginning.  I've heard some authors say Satan/beast/false prophet will be/ are tormented during the millennium age and the new heavens/new earth age.

I have already (IMO) jettisoned the idea that the "millennium" is a "period of time", now to --

THE BEAST:


The symbolic term, "BEAST" as it appears in Rev 20:10 I find is mentioned in Gen 3:1 -- the SERPENT that was more SUBTIL than any BEAST of the field...  What "beast" is the most SUBTLE in the forest? (field)

This subject immediately brings back the "disney film" BAMBI!  :laughing7:

MAN was in the forest!  The BEAST is MAN... the SERPENT is the transgression--oriented nature of the FLESH... which prompts man via TEMPTATION to SIN -- James 1:14

It is THIS nature, that EVE conversed with, and we ALL converse with!

MEN are noted as BEASTS in Scripture: 

Psalms 73:22 -- David admits himself (a BEAST) before GOD

Ecc 3:18 -- in Black & white -- MEN ...R... BEASTS!

Psalms 49:12 -- plain & simple, MEN are as BEASTS...

Psalms 49:20  Man is LIKE BEASTS...

The depiction of the BEAST in the Lake of FIRE and BRIMSTONE, is the NATURE of MAN... which is (even though the highest) just another BEAST...

Notice that "satan" was cast into the LOF, and is the ADVERSITY which is the NATURE of the FLESH... which DECIEVES us...

EVE was said to be in the "DECEPTION" -- not by some "omnipresent demon"... but her own LUST brought forth that DECEPTION...


THE FALSE PROPHET:


The FALSE PROPHET was also in the LOF...  What do the Scriptures say of this entity?  Is this entity within THIS LIFE?  Oh YES! :yes:

Matt 24:7   MANY shall come IN MY NAME, saying that I am CHRIST [testifying of JESUS], and shall DECIEVE -- MANY!

A "FALSE PROPHET" teaches FALSE teachings... DECEPTION will ALWAYS use elements of TRUTH to persuade its victims...  Which is evident in this verse.  These COME (as MANY) -- in the NAME of CHRIST... yet they DECIEVE... MANY!

It is VERY significant that MANY are these... and MANY are their victims... Is this seen in Christianity?  well so sorry to say, ...Of course IT IS!  :dontknow:

This FALSE PROPHET has been around a LONG TIME:

Jer 14:14 -- Then YHVH said unto me, the PROPHETS prophesy LIES ...IN MY NAME... I sent them NOT... neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them,  they prophesy a FALSE VISION and DIVINATION and a thing of nought, and the DECEIT of their HEART...

This verse sounds very much like Matt 24:7, doesn't it?

If you will, ...Read -- Jer 13:16-27 -- the FALSE GOSPEL has been taught all along!  FEW have dedicated their hearts to the TRUTH... MOST wish to be part of the WHOLE... and being an OUTCAST doesn't "work" WELL for them...  :sigh:

Teaching UNCOMMANDED, ILLOGICAL and FEARFUL teachings -- such as HELL... and ETERNAL torment, or the threat of ETERNAL separation from GOD, not to mention resurrecting IDOLS such as the -- the Trinity, Free will, Fallen angels, and "satan" as a being who dominates ALL, everywhere at once! 

The FALSE PROPHET is ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY -- and She has been here in the Lake of FIRE & BRIMSTONE a LONG time... 

She was wearing in a "JEW suit" preaching (prophesying - Jer 14:14) IN THE NAME of YHVH, for a long while, and then a few thousand years ago, ...traded that wardrobe in for a "CHRISTIAN suit", and now preaches (prophesies -- Matt 24:7) IN THE NAME of CHRIST... working together with her INNER co-conspiritors "satan" and the "BEAST"...

Right here, in the ...LAKE OF FIRE and BRIMSTONE!

More later bro, gotta go nite-nite!  :laughhand:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Interesting stuff in both posts, Willie. I was aware of that Job passage possibly alluding to "pre-existence", but I had never thought of the parable of the prodigal son in that way; but it makes sense! I also think it's interesting in Revelation that when the Adversary is cast into the LOF (cast from heaven), the wording makes it clear that the beast and false prophet are already there, which I think lends even more credence to this view that we are already in the LOF. I think I'm going to have to have a re-reading of Revelation with these thoughts in mind, and see what gets revealed...

It messes with my mind though to think that we've either already had our GWT judgment, or that it will follow the LOF in some sense. Or, have we just assumed that the GWT must occur before the LOF or, is it kind of separate? We know that it is for the purposes of receiving back for what was done in the body, so it can't be pre-mortal existence then...

[anti_nietzsche]

I think it is good to acknowledge the existence of the devil. It's no good ignoring that facet of reality, because it simply does concern us.

The tricky thing about the devil is how he tries to get us away from God through tempting us into sinning. The problem for us humans is, we see ourselves as victims of the devil, and expect help and pardon for sins, but God seems to see the resultant sin as real. Of course He will punish the devil some day, but He also will punish us if we yield to the devil's temptations. That is, if we do not have Christ who paid the price for all sin.

The way to go is to resist the devil by keeping the teachings of God. Don't look to the left or to the right, stay on the good, and narrow, path. This can be very hard at times, but it's delusional. Apostle John writes that keeping God's commandments isn't grievous. This means, if your heart is at the right place, following God actually is easier than rebellion and sin. But it's a human thing to sin, the susceptibility to that is just in our nature.

Apply some wisdom. Solomon writes that God created the world through wisdom, this means that the world and the life on it is such that if you apply wisdom you can go through life awarely and you can avoid many troubles and do not get harmed.

With the same wisdom, we must yield to God in Jesus Christ where we find a salvation that is utterly tailored to our being and where we find safety from the devil's schemes. This does not mean we never get attacked, but we acquire faith that will douse all the fiery arrows of the wicked one.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi CP... :hithere:

sorry for not getting to this sooner...

So to discount EVE in the Garden, having a convo with herself, ...or GOD with Himself in the book of JOB, to me, dismisses one of the great and PRIMARY aspects of "LIVING" and "THINKING" beings!  :dontknow:

Hey Willie, I am not understanding what you wrote here.

Okay bro... We are made in the Image of GOD... which means that how we go about things as intelligent beings (outside of acting upon sin), is reflective of Him...

The "conversation" with "satan" in Job 1 is that which I was referring to...  :mblush:

As well as the "serpent" tempting Eve in the Garden... James 1:14 states that ALL MEN are tempted in the SAME manner... via the lust (desire) which emerges from the FLESH... Paul reiterated this procedure in Rom 8:29

Do you ever "think or converse with yourself" -- either silently or audibly?  Such as, you are standing in line at Taco Bell... and you are looking at the menu (shame on you for eating that stuff! -- okay, I do too sometimes!  :laughing7:)... anyhoo... as you ask yourself "what should I have?" -- who are you [silently] "talking" to?  :dontknow:

To think that we can and do, have inner conversation... only is indicative (IMO) that God does this as well...  No one ever takes this into consideration as they observe the Scriptures... I believe it is a revelation... and indeed, takes place in several places within the WORD of God...

Although there is MORE than sufficient proof that YHVH alone, is God, ...personally, I believe this explains the "Trinitarian" quotes Gen 1:26 & Gen 3:22 as a "proof" there is multiple persons in the "Godhead"... that GOD is thinking to Himself... rather than reporting that there are multiple "personages" in Him...

And I want to pursue your thoughts on the lake of fire. You did say you think the lake of fire is a present thing, didn't you? I have been pondering this all night between sleep.

Yes I did say this, and I would be happy to answer any questions you might have about my view of this...  :winkgrin:

Thanks for your patience in these things. I have read and re-read your words much in the past few days and they are doing a work on and in me. Thanks again.

cp

You are more than welcome CP... Again, if I can help in any way to clarify portions that might not be clear, please let me know... It is sometimes hard to put into words what one sees...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi "AN"...  :cloud9:

I think it is good to acknowledge the existence of the devil. It's no good ignoring that facet of reality, because it simply does concern us.

I disagree... on the contrary... it is NOT a facet of "reality"...

I think it is deception to agree with deception... To give the "devil" an OMNIPRESENT position is to equate "him" ("It", as I believe)... to a position only GOD occupies...

The tricky thing about the devil is how he tries to get us away from God through tempting us into sinning.

Again I disagree... temptation is not generated by any "devil"... it occurs in the SAME MANNER for EVERY MAN according to the Bible... James 1:14 -- not by a mythical and religiously invented personage that RELIGION has entitled "satan"... 

The invention of this (false) "personage" is the basis for MUCH distraction, even in NON-Christian scenarios... Movies, TV programs, books, magazines and newspaper articles have taken the "lead" of Christianity and its "FEARS" and BUILT this deception into the world's LARGEST...  :sigh:

The problem for us humans is, we see ourselves as victims of the devil, and expect help and pardon for sins, but God seems to see the resultant sin as real. Of course He will punish the devil some day, but He also will punish us if we yield to the devil's temptations. That is, if we do not have Christ who paid the price for all sin.

Sorry to be so disagreeable "AN", but here is more... GOD does not PUNISH "satan"... Where do you get this idea?  Neither shall He "punish" us... that is NOT the GOSPEL, ...AN!  The GOSPEL is GOOD NEWS, and is INTENDED for EVERY CREATURE -- Mark 16:15...

GOD is amidst a purification process with us here, which includes SUFFERING...

But in the life in resurrection, there is no condemnation... nor is there torment... accountability of self... but,

Only the false teachings of Othrodox Christianity that preaches FEAR instead of the GOSPEL of PEACE... holds you in the GRIP of FEAR... Unperfected in the LOVE of GOD which is so stated in the WORD to CAST OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- NOT promote it in the message of the GOSPEL!  :mshock:

You are welcome to listen to their lies... as for me... I live for His LOVE, and FEAR not the one who LOVES me MOST....

The way to go is to resist the devil by keeping the teachings of God. Don't look to the left or to the right, stay on the good, and narrow, path. This can be very hard at times, but it's delusional. Apostle John writes that keeping God's commandments isn't grievous. This means, if your heart is at the right place, following God actually is easier than rebellion and sin. But it's a human thing to sin, the susceptibility to that is just in our nature.

Actually the WAY is CHRIST... and submission to HIM... if this is done, then our pathways are marked with HIS PRESENCE...

Even Paul, one of the greatest and most wonderful teachers of the GOSPEL... found that the WAR with SIN continued in his experience... Rom 7:21-25

Apply some wisdom. Solomon writes that God created the world through wisdom, this means that the world and the life on it is such that if you apply wisdom you can go through life awarely and you can avoid many troubles and do not get harmed.

Your life is FOREKNOWN by the PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD... you will walk in the steps that HE has purposed you shall walk -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:19-21

It is HE which is shaping you... be that shaping postive or negative, both are required to exist within HIS PURPOSE to teach ALL the CHILDREN, the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...  :grouppray:

You will not avoid that which is ordained.   It is good to pray to avoid sin, for if you do, you are praying according to His ordaination of that prayer... and you are seen CALLED in this way...  But because you do not... also means that you have NOT been CALLED to do so...

This is not about US... it is about HIM... if we shall find WISDOM, we shall come to KNOW that ALL is within HIS CREATION for PURPOSE, and HIS agenda... not focusing upon OURSELVES... rather, LOSING ourselves, ...in HIM...

With the same wisdom, we must yield to God in Jesus Christ where we find a salvation that is utterly tailored to our being and where we find safety from the devil's schemes. This does not mean we never get attacked, but we acquire faith that will douse all the fiery arrows of the wicked one.

There is no "scheme" planned by any "devil"... the IMAGINATIONS of the HEARTS of men which are NOT submitted to CHRIST that "scheme" -- 2 Cor 10:5 --  And are DESPARATELY WICKED -- Jer 17:9 -- therein are "schemes" found, not by a false personage upon which we might cast our own blame... as did Adam and Eve... rather, coming to KNOW that GOD is IN CONTROL and wherever we err, or wherever we succeed, it profits ALL within HIS PURPOSE...

That is not to say -- go out and DO what YOU PLEASE... for if what "YOU PLEASE" is other than what GOD commands... then you were not called in the first place...

For the CALLING and CHOOSING of GOD is firm and intentioned, and ORDAINED -- Eph 2:10 -- it is NOT by CHANCE that you shall walk in obedience... nor is it by CHANCE that you shall walk in disobedience... we are ALL part of HIS PROCESS and PURPOSE... for ALL THINGS are worked BY HIM and ACCORDING TO, ...His WILL -- Eph 1:11

The Firey arrows of the wicked one, are those imaginations and devisings of the carnal and unregenerate heart... not some imagined and NEVER SEEN -- "red guy with a pitchfork"... :mnah:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Livelystone]

Hi Willie

We know that God created all things including evil so not to get into a chicken or egg conversation would you please comment on where do you think that the serpent seed came from and is it any less real than the seed that is Christ?

Blessings

Doug

[peacemaker]

Willie, your posts are of the highest quality; distinguished, and set apart.
Also, enjoyed the Scriptures posted by Laren, in reply #25, thanks for those, too!

peacemaker

[trettep]

I was watching a debate that was on tv not that long ago debating the existence of Satan...with carlton pearson (guy ive been listening to alot of sermons of lightly) was on the "non existent" side of satan.

So does he exist? surely he is talked about in the Bible...but in what way does he exist...what IS he really? is he a red guy with pointy horns and a pitchfork, is he a blue eyed bald woman in a black robe(passion of christ lol) or is he more figurative than that? a projection of our own sinful nature perhaps? Ive read some things that have debunked the "falling angel" story about him...so its called in the question what he really is.


thoughts?

My belief is that Satan is a reference to the disobedient nature of man.

Paul

[Beloved Servant]

I never quite understood the story about when Jesus drove the demons into the swine. And then the swine drowned themselves.
What are demons?

[WhiteWings]

In the parable of the sower there is the housekeeper that sows. Plus the enemy that sows.
If the enemy isn't satan who/what is it?
Some/many on this forum say satan is our sinful mind.
Possible. But then I have a problem with LoF.
Satan is kicked into LoF. If satan is our sinful mind why are the sinners also cast into LoF?
A sinner with the sinful/satan part removed is no longer a sinner.

[Molly]

I think Christians can be somewhat ignorant about the power available to people through the black arts.

That power is real.  It is coming from another source.  It is evil.

We can see that many who use this power represent themselves as good, as opposed to evil. 

But, they are still operating out of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

It's the wrong tree.

No one is good but God, and man cannot make himself righteous.

We see a long history of the Jews dabbling in these black arts--starting with the worship of the golden calf.

King Solomon was seduced into this by his foreign concubines and wives.

This made God very angry and He calls the worship of these strange gods an abomination.  He removed himself from the presence of those practicing these black arts.



1 Kings 11:7
Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.


2 Kings 23:13
And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.



21I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

22Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

23Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

24But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

25Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?

26But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

27Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.

--Amos 5

[Doc]

In the parable of the sower there is the housekeeper that sows. Plus the enemy that sows.
If the enemy isn't satan who/what is it?
Some/many on this forum say satan is our sinful mind.
Possible. But then I have a problem with LoF.
Satan is kicked into LoF. If satan is our sinful mind why are the sinners also cast into LoF?
A sinner with the sinful/satan part removed is no longer a sinner.

I think Willie's view perhaps has an answer for this? If this life is the lake of fire as he suggests, and if satan has already been cast out of heaven and to earth, then satan is already being tormented (tried, tested) in the LoF on this view. In light of this approach, I find the language in Revelation interesting; When satan is cast into the LOF, the beast (carnal nature?) and false prophet are already there. Which would fit quite neatly with the view of this current existence as the LoF.
Around the time of his crucifixion, Christ said that he beheld satan as lightning falling from heaven, and that now was the judgment of this world, and now is the ruler of this world cast out. Could it be that satan was cast down into the torment of the LoF when he lost his authority over death with the crucifixion? Where the beast and the false prophet (already) are?

[WhiteWings]

Only sinners are cast in LoF. We are all in LoF. LoF comes after judgement. Judgement comes after life.
That would mean we all had a previous, and bad, life.

[Paul Hazelwood]

That power is real.  It is coming from another source.  It is evil.

If anyone believes in telekinesis  raise MY hand.