Eternal Torment is True and I just Ignore Anything that Contradicts It

[legoman]

I call this argument the "seeing but not seeing" argument.

What would you conclude after reading the following? Note that the words "universalism" never leave my lips...

--

This is a powerful passage:

Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Verse 22 seems to be an imperative - a command. God commands all the "ends of the earth" to turn to Him and be saved.

Verse 23 shows the force of which God has said this. He has sworn by Himself! He has sworn to do it, He has sworn it will happen. Every knee will bow, and every tongue will swear allegiance. Two things to note: (1) this is universal - it is talking about every person who has ever lived. And (2) every tongue will swear allegiance - this is an oath of loyalty. This is not a forced confession. This is willful praise and confession of loyalty for the Lord that is the savior of the world.

This is confirmed by many scriptures showing everyone will be praising and rejoicing.
Psalm 66:1 Shout with joy to God, all the earth!

See Psalms 66-67, 96-100 for much examples of all the people rejoicing, praising, and worshiping in gladness.

So back in Isaiah 45:22, who are the "ends of the earth" talking about? It seems to be talking about everyone who has ever existed, as verse 23 states.

In verse 20 we get some specifics of who is included:

Isaiah 45:20 Gather yourselves and come;
Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations;
They have no knowledge,
Who carry about their wooden idol
And pray to a god who cannot save.

At the very least "all the ends of the earth" is including the "fugitives" of the nations - those who were idolators. God is telling them to turn to Him and be saved.

Throughout scripture, the phrase "ends of the earth" usually has two meanings, in most cases both at the same time:
- from across the whole earth ie. from the far corners of the earth
- everyone/everything in the earth

For example:

God has created everything, the ends of the earth:
Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.

God sees everything and everyone on the earth.
Job 28:24 for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

This is talking about when there will be no more war:
Psalm 46:9 He makes wars cease to the ends of the earth; he breaks the bow and shatters the spear, he burns the shields with fire.

This again talks about the ends of the earth turning to the Lord (like Isaiah 45:22):
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him

The ends of the earth will fear (revere) him. This is a good thing.
Psalm 67:7 God will bless us, and all the ends of the earth will fear him.

Confirmed again here as we know everyone will eventually fear Him:
Rev 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?



Comments?

[WhiteWings]

The simple ET answer is: Yes eventually all will know Him, kneel etc.
But it's to late if you died unbelieving. That's one of the inventions to wriggle out of unwanted verses...

Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;

Not all turn.

23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back,

The offer to turn stands until you die.

That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

But it won't help you after death.

Verse 23 shows the force of which God has said this. He has sworn by Himself! He has sworn to do it, He has sworn it will happen. Every knee will bow, and every tongue will swear allegiance. Two things to note: (1) this is universal - it is talking about every person who has ever lived. And (2) every tongue will swear allegiance - this is an oath of loyalty. This is not a forced confession. This is willful praise and confession of loyalty for the Lord that is the savior of the world.

Sure all will bow. But He will not accept it. Its worse enough that He accepted those folks from that other church.

At the very least "all the ends of the earth" is including the "fugitives" of the nations - those who were idolators. God is telling them to turn to Him and be saved.

Until you die. Still don't get it? :laughing7:
BTW the ends of the earth doesn't included those in the middle (hell) of the earth.
It even is scientifically proven by the church. In the past the earth was flat but as the Bible shows hell expands to absorb all those sinners. That's why earth now is  a globe.

Confirmed again here as we know everyone will eventually fear Him:
Rev 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?

See "fear"
I told ya. They are afraid of hell that they choose.
Infants? What? Ah yes the go hell too. Ain't that great? That way our loving God shows His vast mercy to us good people in heaven.

[legoman]

Ah yes, this would be the "IT'S TOO LATE THEN" arguement.   :sigh:

Hell is truth realized 5 seconds too late.

Blah blah blah.

Also known as "God completely changes character once we die".  While we are alive God desires some to be saved.  But if you bow and confess after the resurrection, nope it doesn't count.  TOO LATE.  NO SOUP FOR YOU!

I like your response here WW.  This typifies mainstream thinking:

Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;

Not all turn.

Me: But it says all the ends of the earth will turn to Him!

ETer: Nope, no it doesn't, some won't turn.

Me: But it says it in plain English.

ETer: But those in hell won't turn.

Me: What Hell?   :BangHead: The verse says all will turn to the Lord.  How can anyone be in Hell if the Lord said He would save all who turn to him?

ETer: LALALALALA I'm so glad I'm not going to BBQ... (begins happy dance)

:winkgrin:

Peace Whitewings...

[Tim B]

The simple ET answer is: Yes eventually all will know Him, kneel etc.
But it's to late if you died unbelieving. That's one of the inventions to wriggle out of unwanted verses...

Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;

Not all turn.

23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back,

The offer to turn stands until you die.

That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

But it won't help you after death.

Verse 23 shows the force of which God has said this. He has sworn by Himself! He has sworn to do it, He has sworn it will happen. Every knee will bow, and every tongue will swear allegiance. Two things to note: (1) this is universal - it is talking about every person who has ever lived. And (2) every tongue will swear allegiance - this is an oath of loyalty. This is not a forced confession. This is willful praise and confession of loyalty for the Lord that is the savior of the world.

Sure all will bow. But He will not accept it. Its worse enough that He accepted those folks from that other church.

At the very least "all the ends of the earth" is including the "fugitives" of the nations - those who were idolators. God is telling them to turn to Him and be saved.

Until you die. Still don't get it? :laughing7:
BTW the ends of the earth doesn't included those in the middle (hell) of the earth.
It even is scientifically proven by the church. In the past the earth was flat but as the Bible shows hell expands to absorb all those sinners. That's why earth now is  a globe.

Confirmed again here as we know everyone will eventually fear Him:
Rev 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?

See "fear"
I told ya. They are afraid of hell that they choose.
Infants? What? Ah yes the go hell too. Ain't that great? That way our loving God shows His vast mercy to us good people in heaven.

Haha, and all of those replies are completely based off of assumptions. Assumptions not found in the Bible!! When judgement brings righteousness (Isaiah 26:9), and all are appointed to die and then be judged (Hebrews 9:27), only righteousness can follow and bring all men together shoulder to shoulder (Zephaniah 3:8-9)! Not eternal torment/sinning in Hell! Those assumptions really mess things up, they really do! Besides, God will only pour out his anger until his judgements accomplish all he desires (Jeremiah 30:24, Isaiah 46:10) , and that is, that he wishes ALL men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).  :bigGrin:

[Tim B]

Also, if God will be all in all, then how could Hell (from an ET standpoint) even possibly be separation from God? Isn't that a contradiction? lol

[legoman]

Its worse enough that He accepted those folks from that other church.
...

You crack me up WW!

BTW the ends of the earth doesn't included those in the middle (hell) of the earth.
It even is scientifically proven by the church. In the past the earth was flat but as the Bible shows hell expands to absorb all those sinners. That's why earth now is  a globe.

Brilliant!  :laughing7:

[legoman]

Good points Tim.

Yes the main problem is assumptions, which is really two problems:

1.  Everyone has their own preconceived assumptions (traditions of men)
2.  Most people don't actually read the bible (or kind of glaze over when they do - I know I used to).

Which leads to the following:  When there appears to be a contradiction between what the bible says and what the traditions say, the traditions win out.

Later...

[Tim B]

Good points Tim.

Yes the main problem is assumptions, which is really two problems:

1.  Everyone has their own preconceived assumptions (traditions of men)
2.  Most people don't actually read the bible (or kind of glaze over when they do - I know I used to).

Which leads to the following:  When there appears to be a contradiction between what the bible says and what the traditions say, the traditions win out.

Later...

It's sad too!  :sigh: So many people suffering and wrongfully fearing God because they've been taught incorrectly! At least God is working in them, and sooner or later they'll learn what they hope in their heart isn't true (Hell), isn't true!

[FineLinen]

The Rev. C.H. Spurgeon did not preach one hell, but two. In his sermon on the resurrection of the dead we hear these wonderful words of life....

When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it, but at the day of judgement thy body will join thy soul, and then thou wilt have twin hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused with agony. In fire exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed, all thy veins forever play his diabolical tune on 'hells unuterable lament..

What we learn from the Rev. in this quote=

1. The devil is triumphant. He shall "forever play his diabolical tune."

2. The soul and the body both sweat blood. "Thy soul sweating drops of blood."

3. The fire of God and earth fire are identical. "Fire exactly like that which we have on earth today."

4. There are twin hells.

5. Our body is not dust but rather asbestos-like. "Thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed."

Methinks Rev. Spurgeon may have swallowed his cigar as he penned these words, or more likely he had his nose in the doctrines of men.

Let's hear from the apostle St Paul again.

For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven.

[Doc]

The Rev. C.H. Spurgeon did not preach one hell, but two. In his sermon on the resurrection of the dead we hear these wonderful words of life....

When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it, but at the day of judgement thy body will join thy soul, and then thou wilt have twin hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused with agony. In fire exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed, all thy veins forever play his diabolical tune on 'hells unuterable lament..

What we learn from the Rev. in this quote=

1. The devil is triumphant. He shall "forever play his diabolical tune."

2. The soul and the body both sweat blood. "Thy soul sweating drops of blood."

3. The fire of God and earth fire are identical. "Fire exactly like that which we have on earth today."

4. There are twin hells.

5. Our body is not dust but rather asbestos-like. "Thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed."

Methinks Rev. Spurgeon may have swallowed his cigar as he penned these words, or more likely he had his nose in the doctrines of men.

Let's hear from the apostle St Paul again.

For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven.

One wasn't enough for him, eh?  :laughing7:

Wow.

I shouldn't make fun though, because the only reason any of us can see what we do, is because God has been merciful to show us what he conceals from most.

[Tim B]

The Rev. C.H. Spurgeon did not preach one hell, but two. In his sermon on the resurrection of the dead we hear these wonderful words of life....

When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it, but at the day of judgement thy body will join thy soul, and then thou wilt have twin hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused with agony. In fire exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed, all thy veins forever play his diabolical tune on 'hells unuterable lament..

What we learn from the Rev. in this quote=

1. The devil is triumphant. He shall "forever play his diabolical tune."

2. The soul and the body both sweat blood. "Thy soul sweating drops of blood."

3. The fire of God and earth fire are identical. "Fire exactly like that which we have on earth today."

4. There are twin hells.

5. Our body is not dust but rather asbestos-like. "Thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed."

Methinks Rev. Spurgeon may have swallowed his cigar as he penned these words, or more likely he had his nose in the doctrines of men.

Let's hear from the apostle St Paul again.

For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven.

I've been very excited, since becoming a Christian Universalist, to realize that the apostles never mentioned Hell. Ever. Not only that, but they like to mention, over and over again, Christ dying for the sins of the whole world, that his will is to save ALL men, and, as you quote, Christ dying to "reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, ..."  :bigGrin:

[Cardinal]

BTW the ends of the earth doesn't included those in the middle (hell) of the earth.
It even is scientifically proven by the church. In the past the earth was flat but as the Bible shows hell expands to absorb all those sinners. ]That's why earth now is a globe.

:cloud9: ROFLOL....

[aspiring son]

The simple ET answer is: Yes eventually all will know Him, kneel etc.
But it's to late if you died unbelieving. That's one of the inventions to wriggle out of unwanted verses...

Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;

Not all turn.

23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back,

The offer to turn stands until you die.

That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

But it won't help you after death.

Verse 23 shows the force of which God has said this. He has sworn by Himself! He has sworn to do it, He has sworn it will happen. Every knee will bow, and every tongue will swear allegiance. Two things to note: (1) this is universal - it is talking about every person who has ever lived. And (2) every tongue will swear allegiance - this is an oath of loyalty. This is not a forced confession. This is willful praise and confession of loyalty for the Lord that is the savior of the world.

Sure all will bow. But He will not accept it. Its worse enough that He accepted those folks from that other church.

At the very least "all the ends of the earth" is including the "fugitives" of the nations - those who were idolators. God is telling them to turn to Him and be saved.

Until you die. Still don't get it? :laughing7:
BTW the ends of the earth doesn't included those in the middle (hell) of the earth.
It even is scientifically proven by the church. In the past the earth was flat but as the Bible shows hell expands to absorb all those sinners. That's why earth now is  a globe.

Confirmed again here as we know everyone will eventually fear Him:
Rev 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?

See "fear"
I told ya. They are afraid of hell that they choose.
Infants? What? Ah yes the go hell too. Ain't that great? That way our loving God shows His vast mercy to us good people in heaven.

It's good you play the devil's advocate, WW; keeps us on our toes.

Grace and Peace,

Brandon

[WhiteWings]

Brandon,

Where did I say I'm an advocate?
:laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

The Rev. C.H. Spurgeon did not preach one hell, but two. In his sermon on the resurrection of the dead we hear these wonderful words of life....

He is forced to believe/teach that.

ET teaches that sinners directly after death goto hell. See Lazarus and the rich men.
But only very late in Revelation the dead are resurrected and kicked into LoF.
That's why there need to be 2 hells.
I would be good thing if those ETs skipped a "Roast 'm toast 'm" seminar and attend to a "Stats for beginners" seminar.
Everyone makes mistakes. Indeed at first sight the Bible shows fire and torture. But then there are many problematic verses. Like 2 instead of 1 judgement (souls sweating blood are already judged)
Simple statistics will learn you that if 1 indicator says black and 1000 indicators say white then most likely it's white.
But ET simply states it's black and looks for all kind of ways to turn the white verses into black verses.
Smarter would be trying to reason away that one black verse. And not even that is needed if you understand the white verses.

Reasoning with an ET makes me think about a scene in a  WW-2 movie.
Jews where captured and got "fair" questioning by the Gestapo.
Gestapo: Dog what crimes did you commit?
Jew #1: I stole some food for my children Sir.
Gestapo: You confessed. Firing squad.

Gestapo: Dog what crimes did you commit?
Jew#2: I commited no crimes Sir.
Gestapo: You lie. Obstructing of justice. Firing squad.

It's just like a judge that wrote down his verdict before the hearing. Every evidence contradicting the verdict is fake.

[WhiteWings]

Good points Tim.

Yes the main problem is assumptions, which is really two problems:

1.  Everyone has their own preconceived assumptions (traditions of men)
2.  Most people don't actually read the bible (or kind of glaze over when they do - I know I used to).

A little in defence of the ETs now. Not everyone is a rocket scientist as we say here.
They simply trust the experts the same way most of us trust the skills of the surgeon in the hospital.
Plus the added additional problem of ET teaching is build in fear.
Even if an ET accidently stumbles on a UR verse s/he quickly starts reading fire verses to purge the brain of bad UR thoughts. Afterall if you stray from the ET teachings you doubt God and end in hell.
So the inbuild fear component makes it extra hard to accept/study something else.
Plus people usually don't think for themselfs.
If you ask a 1000 people: Can politicians be trusted? Most answer no because 'everyone' says the same.
But still thes people very often fully trust their president (=politician) because that hansom man on the news said the president can be trusted.

[legoman]

Ok so I posted the above OP over at CARM.

So far I have had one person point out a bunch of verses about the elect (Eph 1:4, 2 Thes 2:13, John 6:37 and the like) as proof that only the elect will be saved.  Obviously since the elect is saved, I guess the non-elect is not saved is the assumption, though the verses don't say that.

Another person has claimed that not everyone will bow and confess to the Lord.  Only those in the "new earth" will bow and confess - the reprobates won't be there to bow and confess.  Doesn't seem like much of a glorifying victory that way though.

The rest of the posts have devolved into a standard A vs. C argument, while ignoring the OP.

I find it all an interesting experiment in human behavior.  People only see what they want to see.

[Beloved Servant]

The carnal mind simply can not see the things of the Spirit.
They are asleep — with empty lamps.
Meanwhile, the Lord arises and the door is shut.

[WhiteWings]

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Isaiah 45:23  I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

By force of by love; to me it sounds all knees will bow.
But lets assume it's just about the elect. In that case I also assume, for example, the 10 commandments are only for the elect also.....?

[Doc]

Ok so I posted the above OP over at CARM.

So far I have had one person point out a bunch of verses about the elect (Eph 1:4, 2 Thes 2:13, John 6:37 and the like) as proof that only the elect will be saved.  Obviously since the elect is saved, I guess the non-elect is not saved is the assumption, though the verses don't say that.

Another person has claimed that not everyone will bow and confess to the Lord.  Only those in the "new earth" will bow and confess - the reprobates won't be there to bow and confess.  Doesn't seem like much of a glorifying victory that way though.

The rest of the posts have devolved into a standard A vs. C argument, while ignoring the OP.

I find it all an interesting experiment in human behavior.  People only see what they want to see.

I bet they didn't include 1st Timothy in any of the verses they pointed out. And WW is right, they've got to ignore some really clear scriptures to arrive at their conclusion.

[legoman]

OK, the thread died down, so I posted a summary covering everything:

- all Israel will be saved
- all the ends of the earth will turn to the Lord and be saved
- everyone will bow and confess and swear allegiance to the Lord
- the mystery of God's will is to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ

Sounds like good news to me.


This is the response I get:

You have never really told me what your understanding of the above means. Do you believe that every human being will ultimately be saved?

Calvinists can believe all the above and still insist that many will perish.


At this point I am thinking "What the &&&&?"  How can any sane logical person admit they believe the points I posted above, and still insist many will perish?

So I've laid it all out in the next post, stating I think it is likely all will be saved as that is what these verses say.  We will see what happens next.

My 1st guess: no one will respond.  LOL :laughing7:
2nd guess: I may get banned (hopefully not as I think I've done it in a relatively low-key way).

[WhiteWings]

[/color]
This is the response I get:

You have never really told me what your understanding of the above means. Do you believe that every human being will ultimately be saved?

Gimme a break dude! I'm no UR heretic!  :sigh:
Of course not all are saved. The above verses clearly show all means everyone excluding Calvinists.
:laughing7:

[Cardinal]

[/color]
This is the response I get:

You have never really told me what your understanding of the above means. Do you believe that every human being will ultimately be saved?

Gimme a break dude! I'm no UR heretic!  :sigh:
Of course not all are saved. The above verses clearly show all means everyone excluding Calvinists.  :laughing7:

:cloud9: roflol......

[legoman]

Ok one guy posted a long article about how Jesus will eventually save the world - by that he means the world "at that time".  It is an interesting read... I will post it here in a seperate thread to be debunked.

A couple other people continued to point out there is an elect and a non-elect, as proof that not all will be saved.

The final word seems to be:  we will all have to wait and see!  Which is true I suppose.

Legoman