The Scenario of Revelation Has Already Happened?

[Tim B]

I was reading this article/book about endless punishment not being taught within the New Testament, and when it talked of the "second death" it spoke of much of the events involved with the "second death" as having already happened. More specifically, the idea that the "second death" had to do with the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews.

If you want to read it, the section of the article I'm talking about is near the bottom of the page: http://hellbusters.8m.com/originofhell5.html

But, my main question is this: soooo when is the New Jerusalem established? Is it already supposed to have come down? When does the 1000 year reign happen if the events described, at least those that have to do with the "second death," have already occured? I'm pretty sure there has neither been a New Jerusalem nor a 1000 year reign since then...

*is confused*

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: For one; there are some things written under a sticky thread in the Christian Life section, called, Experiencing the Tabernacle, started by Nathan, that might help you. Blessings...

[Tim B]

Would the Christian Life section be off limits to me for some reason? I can't get into it :(

[jabcat]

It could be one of the "got'ta have 50 posts" things...Martin?

[Tim B]

Hmm, just over half way there. I don't wanna spam though just to get my posts higher lol Maybe I'll just have to wait

[legoman]

Hi Tim,

Yeah I'm pretty sure you need 50 posts.  Shouldn't take too long....

[jabcat]

Found this out on the web, followed by an article by Gary Amirault...the first part included, the rest at this link http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/end-times.html

Do I know every piece of this is accurate?  Nah.   :dunno2:  It may be, but I'm not that enlightened.   See what you think.

12 Most Common Mistakes People Make
About Bible Prophecy and the Endtimes
(With 12 responsible apocalyticism responses)
Test Everything. Hold on to the good"
--1 Thessalonians 5:21
by John Noe
________________________________________

1.        LIFTING "THE LAST DAYS" OUT OF THEIR 1ST CENTURY, HISTORICAL CONTEXT AND RE-APPLYING THEM TO OUR TIMES, TODAY.

One problem: every mention of "the last days" or equivalents [last times, last hour] in the New Testament
refers to the 1st Century. There are no exceptions. Check: Hebrews 1:2; Acts 2:17; 1 timothy 4:1; 2
Timothy 3:1; James 5:3; 2 Peter 3:3; Jude 18; 1 John 2:18.


2.        SEPARATING DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK FROM HIS OTHER 69 WEEKS, INSERTING A TIME GAP
OF INDETERMINATABLE LENGTH AND CALLING IT A FUTURE, 7-YEAR TRIBULATION PERIOD.

Daniel's 70 Weeks of years [490 years] were literally, perfectly and sequentially fulfilled, within the time
frame of his four world empires. Its starting point was the Decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C.. Its finishing
point was in 34 A.D., when the time determined exclusively upon the Jews was over and the gospel was
free to go to the Gentiles. There is no scriptural warrant nor precedent for inserting a gap of any kind or
duration.


3.        CLAIMING THE "THIS GENERATION" IN JESUS' OLIVET DISCOURSE, WHICH WOULD
EXPERIENCE EVERYTHING HE DESCRIBED, MEANS SOME OTHER, YET-FUTURE GENERATION.

Every New Testament use [36] of the phrase "this generation" always refers to the generation then-and-
there present in the 1st Century. See, for example: (Matthew 23:36; 11:16; 12:41, 42; 16:4). Jesus'
usage in Matthew 24 was no different. He never mentioned nor inferred any other generation diferent
from that of those he was addressing.


4.        ASSUMING THE BOOK OF REVELATION [OR MOST OF IT] IS A FORECAST OF FUTURE
WORLD EVENTS STILL UNFULFILLED.

This assumption violates what the book of Revelation says about itself. In both its prologue and
epilogue, it states, concerning the whole of its prophecy, that it was: "at hand," "obeyable" and, finally,
"not to be sealed up." Revelation's total relevance starts in the lifetime of its original hearers. But it
doesn't stop there.


5.        SPINNING OFF ATTRIBUTES OF DANIEL'S FOURTH WORLD EMPIRE, INSERTING A TIME
GAP AND CALLING IT A FIFTH WORLD EMPIRE...A YET-TO-COME,"REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE."

Daniel's two visions (Daniel 2 & 7) portrayed four successive world empires, not five. The were: Babylon,
Medo-Persia, Greece and the old Roman empire. Daniel places the coming of one like the son of man
[the Messiah] and the establishment of His everlasting kingdom during the time of this fourth world
empire, the old Roman Empire. This was all fulfilled, exactly, without gaps, gimmicks or any interpretive
high jinx.


6.        TEACHING THAT 1ST CENTURY SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS CONDITIONS MUST
BE RE-ENACTED FOR ENDTIMES FULFILLMENT TO OCCUR, AGAIN.

Why go through this needless redundancy and gyration? The source of almost all endtimes error is in
the failure of interpreters to recognize the significance of the historical events surrounding the predicted
destruction of Jerusalem, the Jewish temple and biblical Judaism in 70 A.D. ...the real Endtimes.


7.        LIMITING THE COMINGS OF JESUS TO ONLY TWO, OR THREE.

The popular use of so-called "Second Coming" terminology has conditioned us to a flawed, two-advent
mindset. Not only is this not the terminology of Scripture, it's not its pattern or concept, either. The many
comings of Jesus run like a thread through both the Old and New Testaments. Many different and varied
types of His comings are also promised. Remember, "hope deferred makes the heart [the church] sick"
(Proverbs 13:12).


8.        POSTPONING ALL OR PART OF THE COMING [I.E. CONSUMMATION] OF THE KINGDOM OF
GOD.

Daniel prophesied the coming of ONLY ONE, everlasting Kingdom of God. It was to take place in the
days of the fourth world empire [the Roman empire]. That kingdom is THE kingdom which John the
Baptist and Jesus proclaimed as "at hand." What's more, Jesus' coming in power and glory
consummated that kingdom when the old Judaic system was completely destroyed. All this occurred
exactly as and when Jesus said--within the lifetime of those then living (Matthew 10:23; 16:28; 24:30-34;
26:64).


9.        MISUSING JESUS' STATEMENT ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO KNOW THE "DAY OR THE
HOUR" OF HIS COMING TO IMPLY NOT BEING ABLE TO KNOW THE MONTH, YEAR OR EVEN THE
GENERATION.

Scripture is precise in its use of time statements. For 1st Century believers, not being able to know the
"day or hour" was no excuse. Jesus emphatically warned "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by
armies...get out" (Luke 21:20-21). Armies surrounded Jerusalem four times in 66, 67, 68 and, lastly, in
70 A.D.... Those who read this sign and acted in time, escaped. Those who didn't, or wouldn't, suffered
the wrath of God's judgment at this particular, time-restricted and end-of-the-age coming of Jesus.


10.        SUBSCRIBING TO A PAGAN, "END-OF-THE-WORLD" PARADIGM.

Do you know what the Bible says about an "end of the world?" NOTHING. What do the historic creeds
say? Again, NOTHING. What the Bible actually says is:
o        World without end, Amen -- Ephesians 3:21 KJV
o        The earth remains forever -- Ecclesiastes 1:4
o        End of the age -- Matthew 13:39, 49; 24:3


11.        CONCEDING BY DEFAULT THAT ALL 1ST CENTURY IMMINENCY EXPECTATIONS OF THE
NEW TESTAMENT WRITERS, THE EARLY CHURCH BELIEVERS AND JESUS HIMSELF PROVED
FALSE.

If our 1st Century ancestors in the faith, and even Jesus Himself, were mistaken about something as
important as the coming again of Jesus and "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7) as being
imminent in their lifetimes, how can we now trust them for passing on any other aspects of the faith?
They were not mistaken.


12.        BUYING INTO A NEW TEACHING IN CHURCH HISTORY [LAST 150 YEARS] OF AN ESCAPE
FROM THIS PLANET, FROM THIS LIFE'S TRIBULATIONS AND FROM KINGDOM RESPONSIBILITIES.

The relatively new teaching of a "rapture-removal" from planet Earth is a distortion of key scriptures
historically interpreted to refer to a general resurrection. Jesus specifically prayed against the human
weakness for removal (John 17:15). And His prayer is still in effect.


The Coming of Christ in 70 A.D.
By Gary Amirault
________________________________________
There are thousands, perhaps millions, of people who, after reading the Bible, have come to the same
conclusion to which one of the most famous atheists, Bertrand Russell, came . He felt Jesus couldn't be
Who He said He was because the things He and His apostles said would happen in their time, didn't
happen. Below are listed a few of the many passages they would point to and say these things were not
fulfilled according to the plain reading of the English text. This list comes from a little booklet entitled,
"Can God Tell Time," by Don Preston.
•        Matt. 10:23--Jesus said He would return in the lifetime of His disciples.
•        Matt. 16:27-28--Jesus said He would return with His angels to judge all men before every one
standing there died.
•        Matt. 24:29-34--Jesus said He would return in the clouds with His angels--in that generation.
•        Acts 3:19--Peter said Jesus would return when all the Old Covenant prophecies were fulfilled. If the
Old Prophesies have not been fulfilled, the Old Covenant is still in effect. (Matthew 5:17-18)
•        Romans 13:12--Paul said "the day is at hand." That was said 1900 years ago!
•        1 Cor. 7:28-31--Paul said "the fashion of this world is passing away," and "the time is short." Again,
this was stated 1900 years ago to that generation.
•        Hebrews 9:28, 10:37--The writer said Christ would appear a second time for salvation and then
asserted "in a very, very little while He that will come, and will not tarry." Is 1900 years a "little while?"
•        James 5:7-9--James urged his readers to be faithful "until the coming of the Lord," he says "The
coming of the Lord is at hand," and "The judge is standing right at the door."
•        1 John 2:15-18--John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour." Again, the last hour
was 1900 years ago!      Continued here http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/end-times.html

[legoman]

Found this out on the web, followed by an article by Gary Amirault...the first part included, the rest at this link http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/end-times.html

Hey cool - I haven't checked out his whole website, but the author, Dennis Caldwell, has some really good videos on youtube.  I recommend checking them out.

Legoman

[jabcat]

Good  :thumbsup:.

[Tim B]

Interesting info Jabcat! I'm checking out the website right now, and enjoying the articles!  :thumbsup:

[Doug]

12 Most Common Mistakes People Make
About Bible Prophecy and the Endtimes
(With 12 responsible apocalyticism responses)
Test Everything. Hold on to the good"
--1 Thessalonians 5:21
by John Noe
________________________________________

1.        LIFTING "THE LAST DAYS" OUT OF THEIR 1ST CENTURY, HISTORICAL CONTEXT AND RE-APPLYING THEM TO OUR TIMES, TODAY.

One problem: every mention of "the last days" or equivalents [last times, last hour] in the New Testament
refers to the 1st Century. There are no exceptions. Check: Hebrews 1:2; Acts 2:17; 1 timothy 4:1; 2
Timothy 3:1; James 5:3; 2 Peter 3:3; Jude 18; 1 John 2:18.

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh..

Has the Spirit of God been poured out on all flesh? I don't think so. But the event Peter referred to, on that day of Pentecost, was a beginning. Jesus compared the Kingdom of heaven to leaven, hid in three measures of meal.

Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

One interpretation I have seen is that the three measures of meal are the three races of men that sprang from Noah's three sons. The process of propagating the "leaven" was initiated during the days of the apostles, and continues to the present time. The woman, of course, is symbolic of the church.

The "last days" do not have to be confined to a single century. Where does it say that? Peter said, referring to the "day of the Lord:"

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The "last days" that Peter referred to in Acts 2:17, may be a thousand years, or even more. It was not meant to be taken as a literal "day."

So, we may very well still be in the "last days," that Peter spoke of! Isn't every new day that dawns, the "last day," in one sense? It is the newest day.

2.        SEPARATING DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK FROM HIS OTHER 69 WEEKS, INSERTING A TIME GAP
OF INDETERMINATABLE LENGTH AND CALLING IT A FUTURE, 7-YEAR TRIBULATION PERIOD.

Daniel's 70 Weeks of years [490 years] were literally, perfectly and sequentially fulfilled, within the time
frame of his four world empires. Its starting point was the Decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C.. Its finishing
point was in 34 A.D., when the time determined exclusively upon the Jews was over and the gospel was
free to go to the Gentiles. There is no scriptural warrant nor precedent for inserting a gap of any kind or
duration.

Indeed, there is no justification for separating the 70th week from the others, as time has no gaps! But neither is there any merit in saying that the 70th week is fulfilled already. Would that not have been noticed, if it occurred in 34 AD, during the time of the apostles? Would it not have been mentioned by Paul, or Peter, or by John, and recorded in the New Testament? Since the Holy Spirit restrained them from saying the 70th week was fulfilled, who is John Noe, to make such a presumptuous claim? To believe that the 70th week ended in 34 AD, implies a momentous prophetic event occurred, while no one living at the time noticed!

The little horn of the 4th beast of Daniel 7, who is described as having "eyes like the eyes of a man," and "a mouth speaking great things against the most high," has dominated the saints for many centuries. The "eyes like the eyes of a man" represent a human viewpoint, as opposed to a divine one. The divine viewpoint of the apostles, which is preserved in New Testament, makes no claim that the 70 weeks ended in the first century.

In fact, Daniel 9:27 indicates the cessation of sacrifices, and oblations, was to occur "in the midst" of the 70th week. The destruction of Jerusalem was about 40 years after the crucifixion. If the 70th week began with the ministry of Jesus, could the crucifixion, and destruction of the city and the temple in 70 AD, (when both sacrifices and oblations ceased) all occur in the "midst of the week"?

The literal interpretation of the 70th week says that it must be a literal 7 years. The interpretation proposed by Noe seems to make the ministry of Jesus was the first half of it, and says the last half-week ended three and a half years later, in 34 AD. But where does it say the units of the "weeks" are 7 years? That is simply a human interpretation. There is no statement in scripture that says the units must be a literal 7 years.

Daniel gave the 70 weeks in three sections. Why assume they all have the same units? If the units of all the 70 weeks are the same, why have three sections? Noe's interpretation does not explain. Also, he begins the 70 weeks with the date 457 BC, but Isaiah said, Cyrus was to give the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, and the temple.

Isaiah 44:28
That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

The decree of Cyrus was given in 538 BC. That is when Jews began to return from exile. All the later decrees were mere echoes of that one. Why would the 70 weeks begin with one of those subsequent decrees? Does that make sense? To see how the 70 weeks can be calculated, beginning with the decree of Cyrus, 538 BC, see the 70 weeks calculator at:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/calc70f.html

3.        CLAIMING THE "THIS GENERATION" IN JESUS' OLIVET DISCOURSE, WHICH WOULD
EXPERIENCE EVERYTHING HE DESCRIBED, MEANS SOME OTHER, YET-FUTURE GENERATION.

Every New Testament use [36] of the phrase "this generation" always refers to the generation then-and-
there present in the 1st Century. See, for example: (Matthew 23:36; 11:16; 12:41, 42; 16:4). Jesus'
usage in Matthew 24 was no different. He never mentioned nor inferred any other generation diferent
from that of those he was addressing.

The preterists claim that Jesus referred to his own generation, when he said all his prophecies would be fulfilled in this generation, that means all would be fulfilled in the first century. But they forget Jesus himself remains alive! They discount the fact that Jesus is the only person who has immortality, and he is the only remaining representative of that generation. And as long as he remains alive, that generation has not passed away!

Doug

[WhiteWings]

The "last days" that Peter referred to in Acts 2:17, may be a thousand years, or even more. It was not meant to be taken as a literal "day."

Ray Smith has a different take on it.
Basicly the days/events can have time gaps between them.

[Doug]

The "last days" that Peter referred to in Acts 2:17, may be a thousand years, or even more. It was not meant to be taken as a literal "day."

Ray Smith has a different take on it.
Basicly the days/events can have time gaps between them.

John said, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."
[1 John 2:18]

The "last time" must span all the time from the days of the apostles to the present. If there were many antichrists around then, there are even more of them now!

I think John referred to the time mentioned by Daniel, the "time, times, and an half."

Daniel 12:6-7
And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

In the final 70th "week" of Daniel 9:24-27 there are two parts. During that week, Christ confirms his covenant with the church. The first part was his earthly ministry. The last part is the time, times, and an half; it is a symbol of the age of the church, when the gospel goes to the world.

Doug

[noname]

we must remember that "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" ties up with prophecies of other prophets such as Jeremiah, Isaiah and Daniel.

Isaiah talks of the destruction of Damascus in Isaiah chapter 17, and of the destruction of Jerusalem in Isaiah 29...none of these cities have ever experienced total destruction without being built again, as stated in these passages.

also, for those into Israelite customs...it was custom for a person with leprosy to offer two doves once he was cured...one dove was killed and the other's wing dipped into the dead bird's blood and set free...

spiritually speaking, this has a bearing on our redemption as well...Jesus came to earth the first time to be crucified (as the first dove), and the second time to rule and set us free (dove dipped in blood and set free)...Revelation also states that when he comes again, his robe would be dipped in blood.

Revelation 19:12-14 (New International Version)
12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

see...He WAS, IS and WILL BE the fulfillment of all the Laws and Prophets :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Learned something new today :thumbsup:
Always asumed the blood on the robe stood for end times war.

[Doug]

see...He WAS, IS and WILL BE the fulfillment of all the Laws and Prophets  :thumbsup:

This is true. If Revelation was all fulfilled in the first century, as preterists say, or if it is meant for Jews in a future 7-year tribulation as dispensationalists claim, what light does it provide for us today? Peter said, "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts."  [2 Peter 1:19]

Doug

[noname]

Learned something new today :thumbsup:
Always asumed the blood on the robe stood for end times war.

Hi WW, learnt this myself not too long ago from a teacher well versed regarding the Kingdom of God...
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/default.cfm

as with any teaching, study and discern for yourself :thumbsup:

what also rings to mind is the "two witnesses" talked about so many times in Scripture...the doves being an early sign of it...for me the two witnesses bearing witness to Christ are the death work (cross) and life work (resurrection and life)

[WhiteWings]

Understanding of some verse just add a liitle.
While other change the whole context.