Finally leaving church after 8 months..

[reFORMer]

Obviously there can be no "justice" in infinite neverending torture for a finite man; but, why should there be any "judgement" involved either?  It can't possibly matter to the victim.

Sorry James, being dense here...what do you mean about the judgment piece?  Truly interested...

Commonly "Judgement" would be better translated "Justice" (which it can't be about.)  But, to stand before God and only receive an infinity of torture, whether the fire is F 451 or over 3,5000, any revue of your distinctive or particular blessings or wrongdoings and the like would mean nothing.  You coudn't be conscious of any meaning in that heat.  A coming before a judge for a judgement would be meaningless.

[martincisneros]

Not wanting to hijack a thread, but it's been about 8 months since I've been in Church, minus a couple of opportunities that I've had to share here and there.  I'm actually needing to go to my Church and can't seem to bring myself to get down there.  These folks remembered my birthday and surprised me by showing up on my doorstep with balloons and all of the works! including some generous gift cards that came in handy since it was within two or three weeks of when my mansion became one of my heavenly mansions :icon_jokercolor: 

Even when I was married to my late wife, my birthday hadn't ever been celebrated.  How do you spend time with Christians that are actually Christians, though you can open your mouth about 1% of your beliefs?  With me, it's quite a bit more than just UR, you've gotta remember :Whistle: although most Christians bail on you just over that.  And I'm not looking for the reaction to something that my first three years of teaching this, I was secretly trying to disprove it with the strictest scrutiny to every detail of Scripture.  I was on the one hand 100% convinced, but had that emotional baggage to where I had to reconcile all of my emotions and all of my subconscious that I'd been formerly deceived that thoroughly for over two decades. 

So, I've already been there, even as a believer in this of having to deal with how wrong this sounds to certain Christian backgrounds.  I'm too weary to fight with anything or anyone any more.  This is where I was before I even met my late wife:

From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. Galatians 6:17

And I've only gotten worse with age about that.  I used to say throughout the 90s, [and it seems to have finally trickled throughout many areas of the Body of Christ,] that I won't fight any fight whatsoever for any reason at all, emotional or whatever, where there are no spoils or direct threats to my own destiny.  If there's nothing to be gained but an opinion and if there's no direct threat to where I'm headed, then it's just a bunch of nonsense trying to waste my time and resources.  But since about '06 I haven't even really had the gas to fight for anything related to those two things. 

All I've had the occasional energy to do since then is to fight the good fight to be the best possible me that I can be.  And when I'm in one of my mental and spiritual atheletic competitions with myself to be a more accurate teacher, to have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying, or anything else, then anyone trying to divert me during that process is liable to accidentally/unwittingly get trampled 'cause like the Blues Brothers, I am on a mission from God, until that energy dissipates :cool: :hihat: 

So that's why I still so easily fit in with the Christians that are still chasing the carrot that the Lord's dangling in front of them.  (And it is genuinely the Lord doing that with them.)  But when it comes to specifics of my life, what I believe, etc., I'm to the point to where that requires so much security clearance these days (or over the last few years) that it's amazing that I have as many public writings as I do 'cause it's incongruous with someone that wants to be left alone (left behind! :eek: :icon_jokercolor:) that badly.  So, how do you hang on to mainstream Christians because of still having many of the same motivations as they have that many Christian Universalists are frankly totally backslidden about? while at the same time, not giving them more than the spiritual skim milk that their systems can barely digest...

[reFORMer]

Maturing as whole being before God is different than adjusting doctrine to accord more accurately with the Truth...etc.

Love will motivate to be involved with others to their edification; but, as it has been for a long time, even worse in the past, the religious situation with its hierarchy and doctrine makes involvement very treacherous.  That love, specially in pursuit of God, chasing Him down, wanting Him to appear and to more profoundly experience Him when He's discovered, rather than love for others that is so usually betrayed, that love for God causes us to be involved with where He has determined to be:  in His people.  This is not just Jesus and me with room for no more on the Calvary road.  We are members of one another.

There is something, an entity neither God nor our individual selves.  It is the bride, God's girlfriend.  One way I try to even get the idea to the table is to say, "I went to church; but, the church wasn't on the program, and nobody even noticed."  Religion has blinded the masses with the lie of an elite priesthood within the body of Christ.

[Raggedy Anne]

Good for you, IceDash.  I find that I'd have to be a hypocrite to attend a church and pretend to believe as they do.   So I don't.   It has been about a decade since I was a member of any church.   Life is hard enough as it is - why bind oneself to a man's organized confusion?  To me, that is what church is - organized confusion and a place to keep you busy and socialize.  Well, I'm already busy enough, thank you! 

I do enjoy the rare times when I have been able to come together with my fellow brothers/sisters at UR conferences, but those are few and far between.  But you know what -- where two or more are gathered together in the name of Jesus Christ - he is there in the midst of them (that IS church!).

Coincidentally, when I woke up this morning, I was thinking about a church I used to attend and how the pulpit was raised up and the same certain people "ran the show" every Sunday while the "audience" faced them from a lower place.  I won't go into all the nasty details of my experience at that particular church, but frankly, when I look back at those times, I just laugh about it.  I personally think that most churches are dangerous and bad for one's spiritual health.  I know that sounds radical, but I do believe that.

Peace -
Anne

[Cardinal]

I do enjoy the rare times when I have been able to come together with my fellow brothers/sisters at UR conferences, but those are few and far between.  But you know what -- where two or more are gathered together in the name of Jesus Christ - he is there in the midst of them (that IS church!).

:cloud9: Me too Anne, and Amen!

[reFORMer]

1 Corinthians 12:19 (CLV) . . .
19 Now if it were all one member, where were the body?

To get just a handful of people to understand how to meet under the headship of Christ, the importance of being His body, together as an offering unto God is very difficult.  I keep returning to words like, "Except the LORD build the house, they labor in vain that build it."  Unless He calls us together unto Him the group is easily derailed or splintered, even blown away.  People come with an agenda of Sripture study.  I agree there may be a time for that  or similarly, another fixation some have, a prayer meeting.  Even with a few, who can return to build the temple of God?  We are to be presented to God as a chaste virgin unto one.  We are to maintain the simplicity of Christ.  So many have programs, agendas, heirarchy and indoctrination to be delivered from.  They can't come out of Babylon to simply be the Church.

1 Corinthians 14:26-31 (CLV) . . .
26 What, then, is it, brethren? Whenever you may be coming together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a language, has a translation. Let all occur to edification.
27 Besides, if anyone is speaking in a language, by two, or, at the most, three, and by instalments, let one also interpret.
28 Now if there should be no interpreter, let him hush in the ecclesia, yet let him speak to himself and to God.
29 Now, as to prophets, let two or three speak, and let the others discriminate.
30 Yet if it should be revealed to another sitting by, let the first hush,
31 for you can all be prophesying one by one, that all may be learning and all be consoled.

Hebrews 13:10-14 (CLV) . . .
10 We have an altar from which they have no right to be eating, who offer divine service in the tabernacle.
11 For the animals whose blood is carried into the holy places by the chief priest concerning sin, of these the bodies are burned up outside the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that He should be hallowing the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
13 Now then, we may be coming out to Him outside the camp, carrying His reproach.
14 For here we are not having a permanent city, but we are seeking for the one which is impending.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen. As many as are led of the Spirit, they are the sons of God. Blessings...

[jabcat]

Didn't go with wife today, but heard they got a dose of hell for the 3rd Sunday in a row  :thumbdown:

[IceDash]

Din't God said "come out of her my people" i don't think god telling you to be patience and loving to stay in that church, it be like hyprocrite because thoe house of God isn't very clean to the sight of our father because of their's sin is so much to bear because of all kind of sins...

[jabcat]

ID, withdrew my membership...no longer officially a member of the Baptist denomination.  That scripture you quote was used in that decision.  Where to go from here is still a bit of a struggle... :sigh:  Others to consider...you know, Paul talked about being "encumbered" I believe was the word he used...but that's also what I indicated earlier,  maybe I should just take a stand no matter what others initially think...maybe better in the long run...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I know what the Lord said to me one time in reference to hanging out with them.

"Have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness."

He gave me to understand that if they are not ACTIVELY seeking Christ and HIS righteousness so that He can be built up IN them, then they are an unfruitful (Christ being the fruit of our WOMB) work of darkness.

He loves everyone, but He has a plan and is perfectly capable of culling the herd to accomplish what He wants in a people that are called by His name/nature. Blessings....

[Molly]

Christ being the fruit of our WOMB

wow.

Luke 1:42
And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

"womb"

G2836
κοιλία
koilia
koy-lee'-ah
From κοῖλος koilos ("hollow"); a cavity, that is, (specifically) the abdomen; by the matrix; figuratively the heart: - belly, womb.



Genesis 15:4
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

"bowels"

H4578
מעה
mê‛eh
may-aw'
From an unused root probably meaning to be soft; used only in plural the intestines, or (collectively) the abdomen, figuratively sympathy; by implication a vest; by extension the stomach, the uterus (or of men, the seat of generation), the heart (figuratively): - belly, bowels, X heart, womb.

[CHB]

Hi All,

I have no membership at any Church but I do attend one. They do worship God in the only way they have been shown. If we never have any communication with those that don't see things as we do, how does anyone grow?  Jesus ate with publicans and sinners, why? Christianity today is not like it was in Jesus' day, nor the apostles day. They were hard core lawkeepers in that day.

I may be wrong but the way I look at it is, they are God's children too and are going to be saved, they just don't know it yet. Why should I stay away from them like they have some kind of disease. At least that is what I told myself. I hadn't gone to Church in about 30 years till about 4 years ago when I started going to this Independent Baptist Church to sing. I like everyone there but I don't like all of the sermons mostly because of the hell teaching. I do sometimes wish I had never started going and I wonder why I ever did. Now I don't know how to get out. I feel like I am there for a purpose though but I don't know what it is. Probably to learn something myself. Some of them and the pastor knows what I believe. They can't hurt me spiritually because I have already been where they are and know not to go back. None of my family believe like I do and I have fellowship with them, so whats the difference?

CHB   

[IceDash]

yeah but no matter how good you are or loving person to that church, they won't see how mistake they made at God's their's own image, They will NOT listen to you or your God, they only listen to fear that will make them stand, the only reason Jesus ate and walk with sinner's is because God put sin in the first place and he know that human's sin can't be control, just like the church, no matter what you, telling them there no hell or God never punish harsh stuff, THEY WILL NEVER OPEN THEIR'S HEART because GOD SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION FOR THEY SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE FOR THEY DON'T LOVE THE TRUTH, ONLY LOVE THE FEAR

The church will not change, only themselve, can they see what wrong

[jabcat]

You know Charlotte (here you and I go again with the same line of thought  :laughing7:)    I believe (many of) those folks are saved, i.e., "call upon the name of the Lord...confess, believe..thou shalt be saved", etc.  So if that's the case, are we then to not have any fellowship at all with them?  Admittedly, I feel a sort of hindrance in fellowship, for lack of a better word.

I wonder also if it matters what group and/or what that particular group believes in total?  Because, here's an example...personally, I would MUCH rather spend time worshipping with a group of less "developed" believers that simply love Jesus the best they know how, even if that includes a (perhaps reluctant) belief in ET, only because that's all they've been taught and can comprehend, VS. a group of highly educated, BMW-driving, "sophisticated" Unitarian Universalists that believe in UR, but are cold as ice and lovers of the things of the world...in fact, though they're UR, I'm afraid I would feel VERY little in common with them...IMO, there are limits still, in that, if some Baptist or Pentecostal group is SO overtaken with their hell-fire and brimstone that it's pounded and pounded on, often with a "mean" turn or burn mentality, then that becomes over a line for me...like I'm just about at with my wife's "church"...I'm thinking now of attending the music part with her then leaving before the sermon...I feel like I've about had enough.  Card, any further thoughts on this wrt worshipping with said groups?

ID, interesting points about the delusion...does make some sense.

[reFORMer]

There's just nothing in God's telling of the story of the Church in the N.T. (mostly in Acts) that indicates, much less advocates we are supposed to have a sermon everytime we get together, and all the more certainly NOT from the same paid man of the elite.

So many Christians are just NOT into the Bible.  They seem to think it is silent about how to meet (cf., 1 Cor 14:26).  The strange thing to me is how I can repeatedly say things about every member functioning, there's no pastor in the story of the church, meet without human headship and other similar things and somehow they think 3 songs and a sermon is doing that, well, if you have a 5 minute "testimony" time.  It's like it just doesn't register.

How few real "brethren" (lit., from a common womb) do we have.  Shouldn't we be able to gather together in our homes?  Like how many would meet in your home with you and continue doing so, discovering what it is to be the body of Christ?  If nobody's willing then maybe you should prayerfully go out seek the brethren.  It says "God place the members in the body as it has pleased Him."  Is it a misunderstanding to expect that to materialize, that I find a place that is mine locally with spiritual brothers and sisters, at least 2 for a start?

It may actually be safer to go to institutional church meetings only if directly led, considering the possibilities of Moslems releasing plagues in our midst.

[CHB]

You know Charlotte (here you and I go again with the same line of thought  :laughing7:)    I believe (many of) those folks are saved, i.e., "call upon the name of the Lord...confess, believe..thou shalt be saved", etc.  So if that's the case, are we then to not have any fellowship at all with them?  Admittedly, I feel a sort of hindrance in fellowship, for lack of a better word.

I wonder also if it matters what group and/or what that particular group believes in total?  Because, here's an example...personally, I would MUCH rather spend time worshipping with a group of less "developed" believers that simply love Jesus the best they know how, even if that includes a (perhaps reluctant) belief in ET, only because that's all they've been taught and can comprehend, VS. a group of highly educated, BMW-driving, "sophisticated" Unitarian Universalists that believe in UR, but are cold as ice and lovers of the things of the world...in fact, though they're UR, I'm afraid I would feel VERY little in common with them...IMO, there are limits still, in that, if some Baptist or Pentecostal group is SO overtaken with their hell-fire and brimstone that it's pounded and pounded on, often with a "mean" turn or burn mentality, then that becomes over a line for me...like I'm just about at with my wife's "church"...I'm thinking now of attending the music part with her then leaving before the sermon...I feel like I've about had enough.  Card, any further thoughts on this wrt worshipping with said groups?

ID, interesting points about the delusion...does make some sense.

I feel the same way. Also I was thinking about the seven Churches of Revelation, each one of them had different beliefs, or worshipped differently. I wonder if there will ever be a complete unity among the brethern while here in the flesh?

I sure hope I don't come across as being a know it all or cold and indifferent to any one, at least I don't mean to. I am just an average person that you could say, may fit the part that says, not many wise, mighty, or noble are called. I am certainly one of the weak ones. I wonder sometimes why God chose me, I am a nobody who I feel am not much importance to the body of christ.

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I've shared bits and pieces, but I want to share in detail in this thread, how the Lord formed our "church". I was working at a hotel and He told me on the way home one day to stop at a small Christian bookstore that was on my way home. I assumed He wanted me to give a word to someone in there, so I stopped and went in. The owner and one other person was in there. I figured they thought I was crazy as I was standing "hiding" my face behind the greeting cards display, praying quietly trying to hear from God as to what I was to do. After 15 minutes I still hadn't heard anything, so I figured I must have missed Him, and left. The owner later told me THEY had prayed for ME when I left, deciding I acted so strange that the "poor thing probably isn't even saved."  :laughing7:

Two weeks later He told me to stop again. I protested a little, telling Him I was tired and if all I was going to do was hide behind the card rack again, could we skip it today? We couldn't.  :winkgrin: So, back in I go, to hide and pray, I think. This time, I get a word for the owner, who is alone this time. Word of knowledge came and He showed me she had a back injury and heart damage. Turned out she had sciatica that was killing her that day from the back injury, and had had a pacemaker inserted 3 weeks before. When I finished praying for her, she was slain in the Spirit and fell backwards over her desk.

When I have said in the past that His body should be ALIVE, manifesting His works, this is an example of what I mean, and I am not boasting in myself, because it sure wasn't ME that did it.

So after she comes to herself, the door is wide open for me to talk to her. She starts with the familiar, "What church do you go to?", and is stunned to find out I don't. He just has me start sharing, and I couldn't tell you what came out of my mouth. She asked me to come back when her employee is there, which was the other woman I saw in there the first time. So I agree to come back and meet her friend. So I go back and this time He just has me share. The other woman is a bit skittish, so I guess this is why He took it slower with her.

Anyway, He begins to tell me certain days to stop in, and this time it turns out to be it is because He wants to give a word to a particular CUSTOMER, who happens to be in the store at that exact moment in time. I'm thinking, "God, the owner may not appreciate this", LOL. But to her credit, her heart was open to whatever God wanted to do. This went on for a few weeks, with Him zeroing in on specific customers that came in, with the same results. Amazingly, no one was offended, and it didn't matter what church they went to.

I want to share this one day that was particularly funny and so shows the humor of God. I went there that day at His direction also. Normally, it took no more than 5 or 10 minutes for some customer to come in, the customer He wanted to speak to. This day, I was sitting there 45 minutes. I couldn't get a release to leave, but I finally told the owner, it must be me, I must have missed Him somehow, if no one is here within another 15 minutes I'm going on home. At 15 minutes on the dot, we are both startled as a woman in a BIG hurry to get in, literally falls thru the door, because she was in such a hurry to get there, she missed the last step and fell in on the floor.

After righting herself, she says in a breathless voice, "Can any of you tell me why I'm here? I was sound asleep, taking a nap, and the Lord spoke to me and told me to get to (name of bookstore) FAST!"

She said she said to Him, "I will Lord, but what is it?" Then she said, "I had to look it up in the phone book, but I'm here!"

The owner, burst into tears, and just pointed at me. The Lord gave me word of knowledge for the woman that fell in and I prayed for her as He directed. The customers that He "hand picked", became our "church" and we met every Friday night for almost 3 years, until He ended it for His reasons. They were from literally every denomination and from towns all around us, and the amazing thing was it didn't matter as we were all united by the power and works of His Spirit.

Word of mouth from them brought new people in every week, and I was reminded of the scripture, that He added to HIS CHURCH such as should be added daily. And there was never a day in all that time, that He did exactly the same thing every time. We had no schedule, no order of doing anything, no nothing. God has an order, and that order is: WHATEVER GOD WANTS. We would all come together to pray first, seeking His face, asking Him what HE wanted to do. And then He would manifest, first in the "mature" ones, then as those new to the gifts would begin to grow, He would "push" thru them like a tender plant coming up out of the earth in the Spring. It was both exciting and humbling to see, because we realized we were privileged to see something so precious and beautiful as if we were witnessing something private and sacred, like a husband witnessing the birth of his first child coming into the world.

NO ONE was left out, as in one way or another, ALL were blessed every time we came together, even if it was only the joy of seeing Him in the excitement of a "newborn" seeing their Father's face/nature for the first time. And NO ONE was above anyone else, because the gifts are given to each severally, AS THE SPIRIT WILLS. That means that because all have been given something of His nature in works, all are watching for HIS appearing IN EACH OTHER, and rejoicing when He does manifest His appearing, knowing that He is no respecter of persons, and if He does something in one, He will eventually do it in the others that have need, so that nothing is lacking and they have all things in common.

Can this happen again? I believe IT SHOULD BE HAPPENING, every time we come together as HE leads; "church" IS WHEREVER WE ARE, gathered together in His name/nature. Blessings....

[CHB]

Can this happen again? I believe IT SHOULD BE HAPPENING, every time we come together as HE leads; "church" IS WHEREVER WE ARE, gathered together in His name/nature. Blessings....

Where two or three are gathered, there I am in the midst.  :happy3:

CHB

[jadestorm]

I look at things this way; everyone is at different levels of spiritual growth. I know for myself the more i learn about Father, the more i realize I'm still growing. We're in a life long schooling. My point is that when we walk in a fuller Truth it is an easy trap to fall into judging and becoming the very thing we despised to begin with.
While i believe God very often calls people out from a doctrine/denomination, (myself included) He usually does so after He has begun perfecting a work within our hearts.
Usually a release comes when we can say with clear heart that we hold no hurt/anger/bitterness towards a church body. However, i have also seen God remove someone if He feels staying will cause that person and person(s) more pain if they remain. Walk in freedom with wherever God has you at the moment, but let us in our freedom never forget to tread with Grace and Mercy for all of those among us.
And think of it this way... if someone else never catches up to an insight someone else has they'll just get a really cool surprise on the other side of the veil. ;) hee hee
Hugs & kisses  :HeartThrob: ~Sherry~

[reFORMer]

Leaving a ritual, or 3 songs and a sermon church that's centered on a priest or pastor, what I broadly call Institutional Christianity, may likely be coming out of Babylon (covered in Isaiah chpts 40-55).  Meeting without human headship, under the headship of Jesus Christ in an all out puruit of God, corporately as well as personally, should not be considered optional.  A call to Christ is a call to The Church. (Bonhoeffer)  If you don't have and can't find a local expression of the body of Christ you should continue seeking.

[Tim B]

Hey IceDash, glad you built up the courage and/or got sick of the church enough to get outta there! I haven't been to a traditional church service in a LONG time. I might be going on two years now. I couldn't stand the "masks," including myself, that were put on when I went there.

[SQ]

I look at things this way; everyone is at different levels of spiritual growth. I know for myself the more i learn about Father, the more i realize I'm still growing. We're in a life long schooling. My point is that when we walk in a fuller Truth it is an easy trap to fall into judging and becoming the very thing we despised to begin with.
While i believe God very often calls people out from a doctrine/denomination, (myself included) He usually does so after He has begun perfecting a work within our hearts.
Usually a release comes when we can say with clear heart that we hold no hurt/anger/bitterness towards a church body. However, i have also seen God remove someone if He feels staying will cause that person and person(s) more pain if they remain. Walk in freedom with wherever God has you at the moment, but let us in our freedom never forget to tread with Grace and Mercy for all of those among us.
And think of it this way... if someone else never catches up to an insight someone else has they'll just get a really cool surprise on the other side of the veil. ;) hee hee
Hugs & kisses  :HeartThrob: ~Sherry~

Nice post, I do agree we are all at different levels,God takes us where we are and guides us through the journey.
I haven't been to church since 2000 but if a circumstance hadn't happened I may have still been going there or some other church.