"Where's the Body?" (1 Cor 12:19)

[reFORMer]

"Where's the Body?" (1 Cor 12:19)


The kingdom of God is just God. He's the Realm and its Ruler. Jesus, the only mediator, died to bring us into direct and unmediated relationship with God. Now men are inserted between us and God and they expect us to pay them for it! The true servants of God connect the people to their head: Christ; and, they secure and enlarge that connection. Rather than led by them, they bring forth a group led by the gifts, intentionally moving without human headship and preventing any who would take over from doing so in order to have no other Elohim before Him. As sons of God, we will wait upon one another as the flesh of God in the earth in whom is the Spirit sent in Jesus' name and among whom is their ascended head manifesting as Lord of the meeting through any and all in our fellowship. What "lordship" is to the individual, "headship" is to our gathering together.

This "many...as one...Christ" (1 Co. 12:12) is another form than that crucified Adam who is separate flesh-husk units containing souls. Their soilish and soulish authority is external and relative, tending to bondage; ours is internal, intrinsic and to liberate. Their authority is titles of honor from their elite; whereas, we're all just brothers and God in our midst is our leader. Theirs is official; but, in the bride there are no offices: it's an organic and corporate life-form, Jesus' presence coming into manifestation. Theirs is hierarchical; but we are free and each one is in direct union with our resurrected and ascended Lord.

Jesus defined Gentile (or of the nations, or, civil) authority as other than the reign of God. "Their great ones exercise authority over them." Jesus says that among those under His discipline "it is not so;" not, "it shouldn't be so" (cp., Mt 20:25-26.) Anytime you can look up and see the bottom of another man's boot coming down on you know of a certainty that it isn't the kingdom of God. None, not even any of the original apostles, had disciples, except Jesus alone. We are His and there shall be no strange god in us, nor will we bow down to another (cp., Ps 81:9.) We are the beginning of the end as part of that re-heading all things with Christ (cp., Eph 1:10), parts of Who rests upon the Mercy Throne. All authority will be abolished (cp., 1 Co.15:24.) Everything filled and covered"with the glory of the knowledge of the LORD" means nothing can do anything but right and without any influencing authority needed. "All of creation groans in travail..." "...for the manifestation (not the disappearance) of the sons of God...for the liberation of the glory" (loc.cit., Rm 8:18-23.) Yet, what is carnal is subject. "The law is for the lawless." But, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty." The mature law is liberty (cp., Jas.1:25); so, elders preserve the liberty. Thus it is apparent there are few elders in the churches today.

When God tells the "story" of the church (mostly in the book of Acts) He never mentions a Pastor. The verb form is used by Paul (in Acts) when he warns the Ephesian elders to be "shepherding" the flock by guarding against those who would rise up from among them and lead away disciples unto themselves (cp., Ac 20:28-30.) Who in todays commonly accepted assembly form is raised up over the others to whom they submit to instruct and discipline them? Who there today has the keys yet neither enter in themselves nor allow those about to enter to do so? At the end of the 1500's the Lutheran Pietists began to call their Priests "Pastors." Now no one else can get a crumb. All the trouble in Corinth and Paul's last court of appeals is the local church "brethren" (Greek not masculine, but neuter, "those from a common womb,") a word occurring 350 to 400 times. Of the 16 times "pastor" (poimen) occurs, only once does it relate to other than those who care for woolly quadrupeds (4 times) and the person of Jesus Himself, the Good and the Great Shepherd (11 times.) That once is plural and connected with instructors as "shepherding-teachers." It shouldn't be extracted without warrant from the Eph. 4:11 list, attaching our modern practice to it to justify non-functioning audiences for professional preachers. How can so much of what claims to be God's defy the first commandment, to have no other Gods before Him, by having other mediators? and also to prevent the second that is like unto it, the love for one another? 58 times in the New Testament "one-anothering" is commanded. Just try it about 11:30 Sunday morning and you'll find out soon enough what else the ushers are there for!

In our workshop gatherings, to fulfill God's intention to make each of us in His image and likeness, we are all to exercise to our own spiritual development and critique each other's expression. This includes public correction where everybody learns and those mistaken find they're loved, not subordinated privately to another as controller, submitting to one another, not all to one. We are to come into all that He is and does, parts manifested here, then there among us, so together we reproduce the fullness of Christ for each of us also to grow up, presented complete in Christ. When we were "born-again" the person of Jesus came into us. We received Him, not just a part of Him. He is not just in me, but in the others in our gathering unto Him. He's the apostle, prophet, evangelist and more beyond the four categories (of Eph. 4:11) called the five-fold ministry. They're not an hierarchical stack of successively greater authorities, the apostle the biggest boss of them all. These functions are in us if He is in us. They aren't static callings as when many, with their mind on the pulpit think this one's an evangelist, that, a teacher, and so on. Rather, the measure is Christ the Word who is the Image and Glory of God. We're called out unto Him.

The shepherding teachers increase in evangelizing, then deepen in the mystery to be more prophetic. Ongoing growth in experience produces those "specially sent ones," apostles who in turn pursue victory over death. It's just a matter of growing up. As our availability to Him increases we progress on from one degree of expression to another greater ability to impart Him until we ALL come to the fullness of Christ.

But, instead of trusting the Holy Spirit, we've become audiences for professional preachers. I WENT TO CHURCH BUT THE CHURCH WASN'T ON THE PROGRAM! Not size of crowds, nor how well I can prophesy or see those healed I lay hands on; rather, my measure of ministry is how much of the expression of Christ I can raise up in others. I don't care how anointed, how gifted and knowledgeable the man on stage is. He's not the body of Christ! and, JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!

James Rohde reFORMer

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Absolutely! HE is the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher in our midst. HE is the gift that was given. HE was divided up into portions on the day of Pentecost and given to ALL men that come past the 5 pillars of the entrance to the inner court realm, not a select few. The gift that He is, is in all in that realm, in one or more of the five expressions of Christ in us, made visible by the workings of the Holy Ghost thru that aspect of Christ, thru the gifts associated with that particular portion of Him.

The sin of the "church" has been the sin that He said He hated, ie. separating the clergy from the laity. He said He would that they were ALL priests, ie. of the inner court realm. Why? Because that's where the "headship" of the body of Christ was divided up, waiting to be revealed thru the power of the Holy Ghost. We were supposed to lift up the Head in each other, as the HG led (He comes as a lifter of our head). Instead, the flesh encasing the Head was lifted up, to our own destruction. The flesh forever seeks a "Saul" to rule over it. Blessings to you........

[reFORMer]

UNSCRIPTURAL MODERN CHURCH PRACTICES
a short select list with some origins noted

The Single Bishop (predecessor of the modern pastor) Possibly originating with Ignatius of Antioch around 115 AD though the earliest copy of his letters is from about 1,000 years later. The model of on-bishop-rule did not prevail in the churches until the third century after Christ. I don't care how knowledgeable and gifted the man on stage is. He's not the body of Christ; and, JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!

The Title "Pastor" Roman Catholic priests who became Protestant ministers were not universally called "Pastors" until the 18th century under the influence of Lutheran Pietists.

Hierarchical Leadership Brought into the church by Constantine in the 4th century. This was the leadership style of the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans. In the Church there are no other mediators. God, Who is JEALOUS, relates to each of us directly. Even if it is in someone else, it is God Himself with Whom we are dealing. Jesus suffered and died in order to bring us into direct intimacy with God. Now other men are inserted between us and God and they expect us to pay them for it! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Clergy and Laity "Laity" first appears in the writings of Clement of Rome (d.100). "Clergy" first appears in Tertullian (160-225). By the 3rd century, Christian leaders were universally called "clergy."

Modern Ordination Evolved from the 2nd century to the 4th. It was taken from the Roman custom of appointing men to civil office. The idea of the ordained minister as the"holy man of God" can be traced to Augustine (293-373), Gregory of Nazianzus (329-389), and Chrysostom (347-407). Paul bragged that he was not "ordained" of men and regarded men in authority in the Church as nothing before God (Ga 1:1,2:6.) We already have a living and present head in Christ Jesus.

The "Covering" Doctrine Cyprian of Carthage (200-258), a former pagan orator. Revived under Juan Carlos Oritz from Argentina and the "Fort Lauderdale Five" from the USA, creating the so-called "Shepherding-Discipleship Movement" in 1970's. It is another man in bed with a husband and his wife, telling the wife that to love your husband you must go through me.  Not a good place to be considering the husband is a jealous God.

The Modern Sermon Borrowed from the Greek sophists, who were masters at oratory and rhetoric. John Chrysostom (347-407) and Augustine (354-430) popularized the Greco-Roman homily (sermon) and made it a central part of the Christian Faith. Except for special occasions of more prophetic-like addresses, there's no Biblical warrant for doing, certainly not every time we meet by the same paid man, which is against every member participation.

The Sunday Morning order of Worship Evolved from Gregory's Mass in th 6th century to the revisions made by Luther, Calvin, the Puritans, the Free Church tradition, the Methodists, the Frontier-Revivalists, and the Pentecostals. The N.T. presents a "round-table structure" as the normal way for believers to function under the headship of Christ when they gather together. The "lecture structure" is for beginning or special meetings. If you have the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit then all that Jesus is and does is in you. Your degree of maturity is the extent to which you raise up His expression in others. (1 Cor 14:24-31, Eph 4:10-16)

The Pastor's Chair (a throne, elevated on a platform above the ordinary believers), Tax-Exempt Status (The Church is the most profitable entity on the earth,) Stained Glass Windows, The Steeple (phallic symbol in Egyptian Mystery Cults,) The Pulpit, The Pew (added after the Reformation of the late 1500's because of lengthy expository preaching)

The Church Building Started by Constantine around 327 AD, The first church buildings were patterned after the Roman basilicas which were modeled after Greek temples. In the N.T., the early church and even today again for the majority worldwide, the home is normally where to meet. We are the temple of God.

Various points about costumes, special clothing, and dressing up could be made.

The Worship Team Calvary Chapel in 1965, patterned after the secular rock concert.  The problem is blocking every member participation.  In such a setting, how are we encouraged to lead forth with a song God puts in our hearts?

Tithing Did not become a widespread Christian practice until the 8th century. The tithe was taken from the 10% rent-charge used in the Roman Empire and later justified by the Old Testament. While much is said about giving, nothing is said about tithing after the resurrection. Tithing says: "10% for God and 90% for me." While the New Covenant mentality, according to Jesus, is: "Any man among you that forsaketh not all that he hath cannot be my disciple."

The Lord's Supper Condensed From a Full "Agape" Meal to Only the Cup and the Bread The late 2nd century as a result of pagan ritual influences.  The "Agape" continued into the 800's.  While not every time we meet, fellowship meals are practiced by some churches today, though they seldom include "The Lord's Supper" or Eucharist.

(Excerpted from a list by Gene Edwards in his book Beyond Radical and a list by Frank Viola in his book Pagan Christianity with my additional comments.)

James Rohde    reFORMer

[reFORMer]

ORIGINS  OF PASTORS
(part 1)


The first mention of the practice of having a single overseer (Bishop) as a form of church government was in the questionable letters of Ignatius of Antioch in 107 AD.  It was another 50 years until it was widespread and an additional 100 years until it was the established practice in the heart of the Empire.  "Bishops" were over city areas that still had individual "house church" meetings (the commonest way originally) and were without any single leader (unless Jesus) until trying to create one caused the great schism between Constantinople and Rome which resulted in two men as "heads" in the mid third century.  The adaption of Pagan Temples to Christian meeting palaces is another story though.  Let me explain a little.

Writings highly regarded among believers within the first century such as The Didache, The Shepherd of Hermas and  Ist Clement agree with the N.T. in making no distinction between particularly the "bishops" (episkopos) and "elders" (presbyteros,) as  well as "shepherds" (poimenos)  All of them are interchangeable and always in the plural.  "Shepherds" or, "pastors" did not have the connotations that have developed since the end of the 1500's when those caught up in The Reformation started calling their priests "pastors."  Actually, there are no "Pastor" is ever mentioned when God tells the  story of the Church in the Bible (mostly the book of Acts.)

A passage which illustrates the three aforementioned terms is in Acts 20 where Paul addressed the Ephesian elders, "Take heed to yourselves and to the entire flocklet, among which the Holy Spirit placed you overseers to be shepherding the ecclesia of God, which He procures through the blood of His Own." (v.28)  Here, as a verb, is the only occurrence of any form of "shepherd" in Acts.  He uses it in warning them what to be doing because some of their own will arise "to pull away disciples after themselves." (v.30) Does this sound to anyone else  like part of the job description of a modern pastor?  The term "disciple" is applied in the N. T. only to those subjected to the person of Jesus Himself, never of anyone else.  The apostles were never said to have disciples.  Timothy or Titus were never called "disciples" of Paul.

In the beginning and, hopefully, more and more today, as a gathering of believers develop over time in a location, among them are some more reliably advanced in "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (so can be "recognized," or "pointed out," not "appointed.") "Elders is who they are.  Shepherd is what they do.  Oversee is how they do it." (--quoted from Johnny Bergstrom)  What Paul usually did was to leave a little gathering of believers without anyone but the Holy Spirit in charge.  From the Scriptural record Galatia and Crete were the only churches we know elders were acknowledged, as well as elders mentioned at Ephesus.  At Jerusalem where "elders" are first mentioned 17 years after Pentecost it is as part of the convention to decide what to have Spirit filled Gentiles do with the laws of Moses.  At any rate, after a year or two left ministering to one another as members of Christ's body with the Holy Spirit leading forth through each of them it hardly seems likely they'd allow someone to come into their midst and lift one among them up over the others with instructions to become an audience for his performances, the very thing Paul had warned the Ephesian elders of.  In James 1:25 "the perfect law," that is, "the law of maturity" is  "liberty." Isn't that what "elders" or "older ones" are, those who guard the liberty? (Gal 5:1) The twenty-four elders are an epitome of what elders do.  "They are casting their crowns (victor's wreath's) before the throne... "(Rev 4:10)  Knowing they have no authority of their own, that it is all just Jesus, is what makes them "seniors" in The Faith.  We are to be "subject to one another" (Eph 5:21,) not "all to one."

It wasn't until the year 107 that we have historical evidence of one elder being elevated in authority over other believers.  On his way to being martyred in Rome Ignatius (b.35-d.107) wrote seven letters.  (Since the oldest copy of his letters is from about a thousand years later and their content very much predates such concepts in the contemporaneous culture, we should ask how much of what he said was inserted by others much later.)  While we will no doubt enjoy fellowship together one day, he didn't follow the teaching of Jesus and the apostles concerning the church but admitted it was the Roman political structures he sought to copy for strength against his perceived threat of heresy.  He taught baptism, the Lord's Supper, marriage, counseling, exhorting and so on and on was to be done only by the Bishop or when He was present.  This  practice of one overseer  (mono episcopacy) took another 50 to 100 years to become the norm. Even so, it must be remembered the bishop was over a city of house churches.  To have one pastor over a specific congregation had to wait until the end of the 1500's when Lutherans started calling their priests pastors.

Tertullian (b.155-d.220,) who was converted in 195, was the first to speak of an elite class  separate from other believers as "clergy" and, along with Clement of Alexandria (b.150-d.215) popularized such thinking.  Tertullian was also the first to call  presbyters "priests" (Latin: sacerdos) and bishops "high priests" (sacerdos summus) in about the year 200.  It was apparently through Cyprian (also of Carthage) that the use of Temple Judaism's language in our Old Testament about sacrifices and altars, priests and temples began to be popularized as applying to "Christian" leaders, buildings and practices contrary to the use the apostle's made of such terms in Scripture as they wrote it.  Unlike any religion before, followers of Jesus had no priests and no temples.  We were the priests and the temple(s.)  Around Constantine's time hierarchializm was pretty well entrenched in "Christianity" as it became "Christendom," which is, for some of us, that prophesied "great falling away," or, "apostasy." (2 Thes 2:3)  Jesus said , "My kingdom is not of this world..." and now a religious system of this world with soldiers to fight for it claimed to be God's kingdom come.

The reason I came so far forward in time away from the N. T. documents, when what is or is not written should decide these things, is to point out when and where they began as another witness confirming the Scripture's every member functioning as well as complete absence of words establishing titled religious professionals to do church for us.  Odd, how unable we are to submit our understanding to only the words chosen by the Holy Spirit, yet  how ready we are to defend men's explanations of what God meant to say!  Indeed, how readily we defend the authority of men who recognize each other with titles of honor, rather than defend the authority of God alone in the midst of His people!  The apostles were raised in Judaism.  If they wanted to recognize a special class of leaders in the Church or call them priests they certainly could have.  If they'd intended one man be over the others why did we have to wait a while after they were all gone before it's mentioned, and certainly not in the Bible?  Many today believe revelation continued after the N.T. was written.  They mean it when they call certain of the early Christian bureaucrats Church Fathers, though Jesus bluntly said not to.  I assure you they are not "Our Father!"  Tertullian about 218 AD in On Chastity was again the person to provide the first reference we have, even though he was speaking sarcastically, of the bishop of Rome being called the "supreme pontiff."

Whether it's priests renamed as pastors or what in practice is a local Pope ("papa") in a "neighborhood Bible study," these are another "Headship" than the presence of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. The ground of the Church is our basis for meeting, flowing with the other brethren in ministry.  What "Lordship" is to our individual life, "Headship" is to our corporate life.  Consider the following verses (1 Cor 14:24-26) describing the normal "round table" structure meeting as God's mandate:  "Now if all should be prophesying, yet some unbeliever or plain person be entering, he is being exposed by all, he is being examined by all.  The hidden things of his heart are becoming apparent, and thus, falling on his face, he will be worshiping God, reporting that God really is among you.  What, then, is it brethren?  Whenever you may be coming together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a language, has a translation.  Let all occur toward edification."  What is expressed should be publicly critiqued or judged, on the spot. (v.29)  "Yet if it should be revealed to another sitting by, let the first hush, for you can all be prophesying one by one, that all may be learning and all be consoled." (1 Cor 14:30-31)


James Rohde    reFORMer

[sheila]

  This topic brought back to my memory a thought I had when I

  left the established religion I was called out of.

  You know how they put those single adds in the paper?

   I thought to put an add for this ."Wanted:GENUINE,REAL

LIVING BREATHING  BODY OF CHRIST. False-christs need not

  apply' :laughing7:

[Redlettervoice]

.


Let me ask you something...........please.

Looking into lst Cor. 11, it speaks of "not discerning the
BODY."

Is what you wrote in the lst article on here, what that

is talking about, you think?

............

[Cardinal]

  This topic brought back to my memory a thought I had when I

  left the established religion I was called out of.

  You know how they put those single adds in the paper?

   I thought to put an add for this ."Wanted:GENUINE,REAL

LIVING BREATHING  BODY OF CHRIST. False-christs need not   apply' :laughing7:

:cloud9: rofl....... :thumbsup:

[Raggedy Anne]

Fascinating meditation.   There is a reason why I can't "play church".

Anne

[jabcat]

James, I've still got to study this more closely, there's so much good info there  :thumbsup:.  I've wondered this before, and read it again the other day.  With the love feasts, which the Christian Bible (1991) also describes in its Forward;  what do you think Paul meant when he was rebuking the Corinthians (I think), citing how some were getting drunk, partaking unworthily, etc.  Then he says, "don't you have houses to eat and drink in?"  IF they weren't meeting in a special "sanctuary"-type location, i.e., "church building"...which I don't wish to think they were...but if not, why do you think he seems to be suggesting they go to their homes and eat and drink instead of doing it there...wherever 'there' was?  I thought they had the love feasts IN their homes  :Chinscratch:.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Jab, if you don't mind, I'd like to put my  :2c: in here to your question, too. If you read it in the New Living Translation, I think it becomes clearer. The "Lord's Supper" they were referring to was a Passover Seder of the Jews, that Jesus, being a Jew partook of before they took Him.

Notice that it says they meet AS a church, not in one.  Jesus said to do this often in remembrance of me, and I believe they met on the Jewish Sabbath and had Passover patterned meals together as a body. The first saved in the early church were the 3000 on the day of Pentecost, and these men that were commanded to be there from all over the then world (males 21 and older commanded by law to meet in Jerusalem for the 3 main feasts), were Jews who took back the blessing of the Spirit of Pentecost with them to their home communities.

This was followed by visits of the disciples who had been with Him, which is what the letters were about in the first place. They had to go out and explain the purpose and function of the gift of the Holy Spirit, as it had been explained to them, by Him after He resurrected and taught them for 40 days.

He was rebuking some that were coming for acting like it was a pagan feast, where one or two could jump right in and eat in a selfish gluttony motive, instead of sharing what was there, eating in a communal fashion. So once all the food was gone and some got none, all that was left was wine, so they quickly got drunk on it in the absence of food.

So they were missing the whole point of the meal, which was not to just "eat and drink" just for the sake of feasting, which he pointed out they had their own homes to do that in, but rather to share His body and His blood with one another, when they came together to worship the Lord in this.

This is why the next topic is about true communion, and discerning the Lord's body. Now if you look at what they were doing, in essence, the same pattern is being done today. Some of those that have hungered after the bread (Word) and the wine (Spirit), have eaten and drunk to their fill, not caring if ALL the brethren reach that same level of fullness, as they should, and so exalt themselves above the body. God looks at the motive of the heart in all things, and what was being examined here was their motive, which was to satisfy their own flesh, not caring about the others.

The spirit of the Son is a servant, and the PURE motive once all the others have been stripped away, is to serve others the bread and wine that you have received, in order that they might be lifted up or preferred before you. The problem becomes that lifted up does not mean above other flesh, but lifted up INTO THE HEAD, which is Christ, and HE is above the flesh, so in that, ALL are blessed. Below is the passage of scripture. Blessings....

! Cor: 11:17 But now when I mention this next issue, I cannot praise you. For it sounds as if more harm than good is done when you meet together. 18 First of all, I hear that there are divisions among you when you meet as a church, and to some extent I believe it. 19 But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that those of you who are right will be recognized! 20 It's not the Lord's Supper you are concerned about when you come together. 21 For I am told that some of you hurry to eat your own meal without sharing with others. As a result, some go hungry while others get drunk. 22 What? Is this really true? Don't you have your own homes for eating and drinking? Or do you really want to disgrace the church of God and shame the poor? What am I supposed to say about these things? Do you want me to praise you? Well, I certainly do not!

23 For this is what the Lord himself said, and I pass it on to you just as I received it. On the night when he was betrayed, the Lord Jesus took a loaf of bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is given F57 for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, he took the cup of wine after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant between God and you, sealed by the shedding of my blood. Do this in remembrance of me as often as you drink it." 26 For every time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are announcing the Lord's death until he comes again. 27 So if anyone eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord unworthily, that person is guilty of sinning against the body and the blood of the Lord.

28 That is why you should examine yourself before eating the bread and drinking from the cup. 29 For if you eat the bread or drink the cup unworthily, not honoring the body of Christ, F58 you are eating and drinking God's judgment upon yourself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died. 31 But if we examine ourselves, we will not be examined by God and judged in this way. 32 But when we are judged and disciplined by the Lord, we will not be condemned with the world. 33 So, dear brothers and sisters, when you gather for the Lord's Supper, wait for each other. 34 If you are really hungry, eat at home so you won't bring judgment upon yourselves when you meet together.I'll give you instructions about the other matters after I arrive.

[jabcat]

Good stuff in the OP.  Explains a lot about your position, James.  Makes sense Card, thanks.

[reFORMer]

I've tried elsewhere to make it clear that we should be freed to have big meetings, to have concerts and theatricals, and in whatever facilities are convenient.  Even the "megachurch" gatherings with awesome music and a simple edifying word from some brother is fine if you are so lead.  For those that are only acquainted with a performance on a platform it can be a gateway to neighborhood meetings in the home as the body of Christ.  It can also be a means of generating enough resources to do many charitable deeds.  Some today have clinics, build homes, send highly functional teams on short term missions around the world and do other fabulous things hard to repeat by a little "home church."  But, if such things are done, it should be understood what is the normal meeting of the Church.  It is more "round-table" structured rather than the "lecture" structure.  To really know and bear the burdens of one another a smaller group is obviously needed.  Making people disciples of Jesus is also more practically accomplished in a small group.  As well, when those are in place, persecution that eliminates the large venue gatherings is not so devastating.

[Livelystone]

I agree with the OP and the comments added by others. After all the clergy of today is the tail of the dragon that is sweeping stars (Christians) for their inheritance reserved for them in heaven

Also in the OT there are a number of verses that are critical of the Pastors that will come to be.

However Jer. 3 that speaks of the glory to come to the Lord and His Body on earth speaks very positively about Pastors in the following verse as something for us to look forward to....... at least that is how I read it and would like to hear other opinions

Jer 3:15    And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: So true, reFORMer.....I can't remember his name, but I saw a man on TV once (I think he was from South America) who said God had given him wisdom concerning how to bring others in to the knowledge of the Lord, and it was to create 12 member "cell" groups, like small bible studies.

Then they each prayed and sought to bring in one to the Lord's body. They learned how to "shepherd" individually in this way, but they still all met as a group once a week, or whatever. Before long, it was a church of literally thousands, but unlike most large churches where no one knows more than a handful in their pew, the cell groups were thriving, bringing in more and more in one on one relationship.

Now from what he said, they still didn't recognize the validity and necessity of the Lord bringing forth the full 5 fold in their midst (but if they continued I'll bet He did with them too), but I felt this was a principle that I could see the hand of the Lord in.

In essence, this is similar to how He used us to start the body we had, with one person bringing one person, nearly every week, although it was not so much a conscious effort on our part, but rather a by-product of word of mouth, because the gifts including healing were flowing and people were being drawn by the power of the Spirit.

To me, true shepherding is not standing on a platform week after week, but the Lord raising up a true "father" capacity in EACH one, which is the ability of the one to reproduce the true nature of the SEED, via the Spirit of God. Over time, this pattern above is essentially what He did with us, unknowingly to us; then later HIS selecting, establishing, anointing and setting in HIS offices of the 5 fold, then reproducing that "star" pattern over and over again, as He brought the others to maturity.

God starts out with 12, both decreasing and increasing at the same time which only He can do, with 5, then ultimately to have 5 in 1, as ultimate maturity comes to be able to manifest whatever is needed, wherever you are, now prophet priest and king (He's King of KINGS), in one. Blessings....

[reFORMer]

What Does Authentic Organic Church Life Look Like?


I was raised in a Christian home and attended church every time the doors were open. I knew how to live and behave like a Christian should. You might say I was the poster child. Late in high school and early college, I met some Christians who sparked a passion in me that I never knew was possible. I saw their passion to know Christ in deep ways, and more than that, they actually seemed to know Christ much more deeply than I.

In meeting them, I discovered that my own faith and knowledge of Christ was very shallow. You see, I realized that although I enjoyed going to church to be with my family and friends, I really viewed church as an obligation to endure in order to "hang out" with them before and after Sunday school, services, or youth group meetings.

I quietly sat through sermon after sermon hoping it would hurry up so we could go to the restaurant afterwards. Minutes after the sermons I couldn't actually remember what was said. I already heard that I needed to go to church more, I needed to tithe more, I needed to read my Bible more, and I needed to witness more. It wasn't until I met these other Christians that I realized that all of the previous churches that I was a member of didn't fulfill my thirst for Jesus. They gave me rules and regulations instead of something that gave life. Instead of growing in Christ, I was "dying on the vine," filled with fear, shame, and inadequacy. I didn't actually enjoy talking about the Lord. Nor was I near as bold to share Jesus with nonbelievers. I would ask myself, If I was such a good Christian like I thought I was, why do I feel so far behind the curve?

The more I was with these believers, the more I wanted to know Christ like they did. I was drawn to Christ like a moth to a streetlight. I gradually began to spend more time with them and started going to their meetings. Their meetings were free and open. There was no liturgy. There were no clergy. They didn't actually need them. There were plenty of believers who had encountered the Lord and had encouraging things to share with the others.

They didn't need someone to give them permission to speak. They didn't need someone to bury them in rules and lifeless duties. They wrote many of their own songs. They prayed together, taking turns talking to Jesus unrehearsed and from the heart. They met together as if Jesus was actually in the room. They treated each other like a family that loved each other.

After just a short while, I realized that this organic experience of Christ was exactly what was missing from my own experience. I began to crave gathering with these believers. I would go to their meetings and see a much bigger Lord than just someone who died for my sins. I would see Him in much deeper ways.

I was no longer satisfied with watching a performance. In this organic meeting, I began to want to share with my brothers and sisters what I had seen of the Lord. Instead of being passive, I now thought it was easy to function and contribute. Every one of our meetings was free to be different. Sometimes we sang for hours. Sometimes the believers were bursting at the seams to share what Jesus had done in their lives that week. Sometimes we revered the Lord's awesomeness in silence. No one had to tell us to do these things. The Spirit was moving in these ways and they just spontaneously happened. We often ate together as one family.

Sometimes we shared scriptures with each other. Other times we enacted scenes and stories from the Bible that shed light on Christ. We met all throughout the week. In the mornings, the brothers would find another brother or two, and the sisters would get together with sisters. And we would pursue the Lord in prayer and contemplate Scripture together. We would start our day with Christ. In the evenings, some of the members would open up their homes and share Christ over dinner. We had brothers and sisters meetings where we would collectively decide on matters relating to the church. And we would share responsibilities for caring for one another.

If there were no pressing needs, we would just sing to the Lord and pursue His presence together. If there was a member in need, we would think of ways to help them. Sometimes we would just plan ways to bless each other for the fun of it. Sometimes the single people would babysit for the parents and give them a night out on the town. Sometimes when one of the brothers or sisters went away on a long trip, the whole church would show up at the airport to greet them. And we would have a church meeting right in the airport.

There was always something happening where you could share Christ and love the Lord together. We would also have spontaneous times of outreach to the lost. Everything we did, the Spirit was free to move and change the direction of the event. When we did get together, I saw a Christ glorified and magnified. We were constantly making new discoveries in Him. Every time I saw Him in a new way, I wanted to see more.

The feeling of guilt, shame, and unworthiness was gone. I had a passion to know Christ in deeper ways. I am through with dying on the vine. I have now seen the freedom that Christians can really have in meeting together organically, just like the early church did.


This letter of testimony (by a male international marketing and business consultant) is excerpted from Reimagining Church,  the Introduction  http://www.reimaginingchurch.org/   by Frank Viola   http://en.wordpress.com/tag/frank-viola/

[Pierac]

Indeed, I'm some what saddened that Mr. Viola chose to name his book Pagan Christianity.  I think the title turns away many Christians from actually reading this great work!  Perhaps he should have just stuck with The origins of Our Modern Church Practicies!

I would also recommend... Rethinking the Wineskin The practice of the New Testament Church.  I was so impressed with Pagan Christianity. that I wanted to read more of his works. Both are good reads!

Good topic!
Paul

[martincisneros]

Indeed, I'm some what saddened that Mr. Viola chose to name his book Pagan Christianity.  I think the title turns away many Christians from actually reading this great work!

I've ignored the book precisely because of that title.  I'll pray about reading it then, and see what the Lord says about it.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Praise God He allowed you to have that experience reFORMer. What you are describing is very similar to what we experienced in what we called our "bible study", but what it was, was pure New Testament church at it's best.

No one had any agenda or was exalted above the others (for a season of 2 years; didn't last long before human ambition and the Jezebel spirit took over) and for the time period that it endured, it was awesome. He came every night we had it, there's just no other way to put it. He was there, He was real, He was tangible and left tangible results. People that came were never the same.

And the really amazing thing was, that they came from ALL denominations. People that normally wouldn't step foot in a "Pentecostal" church, came where they could reach out and touch Him, His presence was so real. It didn't matter to them, that the core of us believers that were nearly always there, spoke in tongues.

All that mattered was, He knew them and He used one of us to let them know He knew them and He was real (word of knowledge), and their pain was known to Him, whatever it was.

And then He used one of us to impart wisdom to help them in their situation (word of wisdom). And many times, He then used one of us to speak into their situation and declare those things that are not as though they were (prophesy), which leads to healing. And they came back the next week with a miraculous report from their doctor, that all was well. And word of mouth brought new ones in every week.

His body should be ALIVE, growing and functioning while doing His Father's business every time they come together, with a unencumbered current of both giving and receiving from the "main power source" going on. Instead there is usually a "short" caused by one who has exalted himself/herself above the others, disrupting the pure flow of the Spirit of God and "grounding It" out. Like a dammed up river, He is there, but He is not allowed to flow. Blessings....

[aspiring son]

Reformer-

Very inspiring Post !!!!!!!!! Excellent

Grace and peace

[reFORMer]

(I put this post elsewhere, but felt it should be part of the collection of thoughts gathering here.)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I never really felt it right to join a separate group.  By the Spirit I was baptized into one body.  I saw there was "The Church" (Eclessia) and not "churches" in Scripture.  "One body" meant I could not sectarianize by identifying with just one distinctive group apart from that one body, against all the other groups claiming to be "The Church" too.  A divisive attitude toward the body of Christ was wrong in the Bible.

What else developed was I saw the religious hierarchies in all these groups were not only kingdoms distinct from one another; but, they were obviously other than the kingdom of God.  None of them could claim to be THE kingdom of God.  They were kingdoms of men.  I knew by the gift from God of His indwelling Spirit I had been joined to the one body of Christ and was in His kingdom.  This was without any direct intervention of man.  I was completely alone one day when God began to deal with me in such a way that I have been being changed by His presence ever since.  God had joined me to His Church and there was no other real "Church."  The decisive thing had happened by God's direct intervention and self-revelation.  Why would I go and be joined to another?

What were these things, hierarchies of authority claiming the terminology God uses of what is His alone?  Were they, as some claim, the gift of "governments," as mentioned in 1 Co 12:28, translated by some as "pilotage," or "steerage?"  This is in a list of functions exercised by individual persons, gifted people as described as, "...the presider (he that ruleth), with diligence..." (Rm 12:8)  Because of the sectarian nature of these religious systems, that they are not the kingdom of God, and they are something men relate to rather than to God in a realm and manner that they are to be intimate with God only, I cannot accept them as being gifts of the Holy Spirit.  He is bring all things into one and re-heading them with Christ.  Those using Godly gifts of authority are directing people into living God, that they would be submitted to Him, and not to themselves.  These are not men themselves, so what are things like denominations, parachurch groups, or, even independent local church hierarchies?  At best, these systems are imagined systems which men have intimacy with other than God and other that normal inter-relatedness between the members in particular functioning together as the Body of Christ.  At worse, they may be evil angels.

Much more could be said; but, these were some of my beginning thoughts, in the first couple years, when God had started me in His way.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: He dealt with me similarly from the very beginning, also. A friend told me I needed to "belong to a local church"; that I needed to join, as she was doing. I could not find anything like that in there, but I was teetering on the edge of doing it, because she had been at this thing longer than I, and I considered the possibility that she was somehow right and I just couldn't see it.

So I went to her "joining" and was shocked to find this ceremony included swearing allegiance to the particular denomination and it's local building, and that she would lift "it" up. That served to only drive home the point for me, and I never joined the rosters of ANY church.

I could not believe she would even consider such a thing, especially since He had already shown us a great many doctrines of it, like the rapture, were man-made. When I pointed out to her that no where in there did it say we were to do this, that we WERE the church, I was rebuffed quite heavily, and was told I was just being rebellious and had an evil spirit.  :sigh:

For two years, I tried to get through, but in the end it was God who pulled her out of it, after she went to a national convention of pastors and elders of that denom, and He gave her a vision of Him bound up in every one of them, saying, "Set me free!" It shook her to her core, and she resigned her "membership" and became "rebellious" also.  :winkgrin:

They do say a "picture" is worth a thousand words.  :winkgrin:  :icon_jokercolor: Blessings....

[Redlettervoice]

.


Where's the BODY, asks ReFORMer?

Sounds like Elijah?

Where were the 7,000 that God had reserved?

and do you see them mentioned anywhere else

in any kind of way? 

Cardinal?

[Livelystone]

I get tired of doing it alone and I am always looking for someone else physically nearby to worship with but it is not happening.

Back in the beginning of my walk when He did to me as He did to Paul and "separated me from my mothers womb", God did supply a person to teach me the truth and keep me company that turned some of my darkest hours into times of enlightenment that forever left me outside the camp.

I do not believe for a second that I am alone and that there are not others whom too have been separated from the "mothers womb" by the Father for His pleasure rather than our own......... for that matter I see the same in the words of others here and in particular in this thread.

I wonder about the future........ does "islands removed from their places" speak of voices that are alone in the sea of many waters being moved into a place when God wants them to be for His use?  :dontknow:

However I do believe that a lake is "a body" that consists of many individual drops of water and that the LOF is a body of "drops" with each drop being  a manifested son.

To me Luke 6: 1 speaks of that time and those whom will be used of God to thresh the wheat to make it presentable and acceptable to Him.

Luk 6:1    And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing [them] in [their] hands.

But what of the woman (church) at the well?

She has been coming there during the time of man being in charge of the water (6th hour) and consequently she has never been given the good water having been married to the five fold ministry (5 husbands) who could not draw good water but this last time Jesus is there waiting for her to give her good water

Is this "Jesus at the well" a many membered body teaching the truth to a church who has yet to hear it or is it a picture of us when we were called out to hear what the spirit says? I suppose it could be both but for sure it points to the fact that the five fold ministry has not brought forth fruits of the kingdom and neither will the church under their leadership.

Blessings

Doug

[Molly]

Exodus 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


We are called a holy people, a peculiar people, set apart, a kingdom of priests.

Priests are those who live on the word of God, who stand in the gap between man and God, who make intercession for others, who offer communion.

But, God's priests form the kingdom itself.  The kingdom of priests is the kingdom of God.


Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[Cardinal]

.


Where's the BODY, asks ReFORMer?

Sounds like Elijah?

Where were the 7,000 that God had reserved?

and do you see them mentioned anywhere else

in any kind of way? 

Cardinal?

:cloud9: The only thing I ever got on the 7000 was of it speaking of 7 X's 1000. So perfection (of the Son-s) magnified by the mark of completion of the 7th day, which is Christ. So I see it as the spiritual "symbol" of those He is raising up in this day, the day of the Lord. We are in the 7th (7000) day from Adam, but it is also the day of the Lord. Two harvests, the tares and the wheat, one natural, one spiritual, if you will. Blessings.....