"Saved" from what?

[Nathan]

I do get what your saying and am only left in want for more . .but I guess I have never seen that all in the book of life are blotted out and cast into the LOF . . .which that process would then reinstate us back into the book of life?

Guess I'm not fully following that particular line of thought.

As the song "Come" goes . .still the greatest treasure remains for those, who gladly choose him now . . . . for me, that is the crux of accepting Christ . .of having that personal relationship . .. in that relationship, or "through" that relationship, I see the foregoing of the LOF.  If all are bound for the LOF whether we receive Christ or not, then what was the benefit of the cross?

Or am I misreading what you're saying?

[Doc]

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

I truly hope to convey my thoughts to you, if after reading them you have questions, I will be happy to try to answer them... and you are welcome to disagree with my findings. It is never my endeavor to change anyones beliefs... THAT is left to GOD only. 

If anything, it is my desire to be a tool in His hand... His blessings be unto you as you continue to search for Him!  :friendstu:

Hi Willie. I appreciate your comments on the LOF with regard to some not being harmed or hurt of it. This does seem to imply that none will avoid it. My question for you is; if none avoid it, what is the significance of the statement that those who are not found in the lambs book of life will be thrown in, in connection with the GWT judgment. I'm still confused about that. Thanks!

Might I begin by a noting (it is my observation) that the "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" is the "REVEALING" of an ETERNAL entity to FINITE or "time-bound" beings (humanity)...

CHRIST cannot be defined by FINITE parameters, such as CHRONOLOGY.  Therefore, when observing the WORD, especially the "revealing" of who and what the WORD, IS... we make our first error by attaching anything which binds the WORD to our FINITE specifications (such as "chronology")...  :dontknow:  (hope thats not confusing!)

IOW -- JESUS (the WORD) is an entity which has NO BEGINNING or ENDING, so that which "REVEALS" Him, cannot be noted as having these characteristics... (chronology is about beginnings and endings, one thing -- following another)  ALL things concerning or alluding to CHRIST ...ARE... they do not "manifest" according to TIME ...OR... chronology.

That said...  The "whosoever was not written in the Book of Life". ...is ALL... Rev 20:15

ALL are "blotted OUT" of the BOOK of LIFE (cast INTO the LOF along with "death and the grave -- which is the created realm of TIME), ...In the ETERNAL, they ARE WRITTEN IN it by HIS LIFE which was given for ALL... for ALL DIE in ADAM... ALL have sinned and come short of LIFE - which IS the WORD (John 14:6) and IS the GLORY of GOD...

The "GWT" is NOW... as JESUS plainly noted:  NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD -- John 12:31 ...there is no need for a future JUDGMENT other than that which exposes the (unforgiven) sin of humanity in the resurrection (Rev 3:18), and dissolves it with the "putting on of CHRIST" which is IMMORTALITY (LIFE without temporal parameters such as "beginning/born - end/death)...

ALL are appointed to DIE... Heb 9:27 so IN that DEATH, they become "blotted out" of the BOOK of LIFE (the "STATE" of actually LIVING)... But EACH life is found encompassed within the LIFE of the LAMB... for He DIED (tasted "death" - Heb 2:9) for ALL and was RAISED for ALL, being SAVIOR of ALL...

IMO (you are welcome to disagree with it) ...those which observe the notations is "the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST" in "chronological" (chapter/verse) order is part of the NATURAL process that prevents "EARS from hearing"...  :Chinscratch:

I don't know if you have any familiarity with my observations Doc... but it is my observation that GOD "working" ALL THINGS, means they have "already been WORKED"... For GOD is not BOUND by TIME in His "WORK" efforts, as are we... Especially the WORKINGS of HIS WORDS which need NOT the manifestations of TIME in order to ...BE...  Rev 13:8 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 4:17 -- Isaiah 48:3

One of my observations, is that many of the things in the "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" (the LAST book in the Bible), are found explained by the FIRST book...  :laughing7:

For GOD FINISHED His WORK (the ENTIRE work of creating ALL THINGS which are CREATED) by the close of the 6th DAY... Gen 2:1 ...and thereby, ALL TIME and ALL events (generations) within it were FINISHED at the close of the 6th DAY of Creation... and IN the SABBATH which has NO morning (beginning) or evening (ending), are found ALL THINGS, ...COMPLETE...

I realize that many shall not "get" what I am saying, so if this answer hasn't satisfied you or confuses you in any way, please feel free to ask for clarification and I will endeavor to re-word it in hopes to convey understanding...  :Peace2:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Ok. I think I'm following you, at least somewhat. One thing I consistently forget is that as Westerners, we tend to view things in a linear fashion, whereas the Hebrews view things in more of a cyclical fashion. (I know, because I recently had a Jewish individual tell me that). It sounds to me like your understanding of this takes more of that approach. It's a sort of repeating cycle rather than a series of events played out in a linear fashion. And because the revelation of Christ (who is outside of time) further defies time-related constraints...It isn't a linear thing at all, is it? Am I getting you?

Now, I am trying to understand this next quote more:

ALL are appointed to DIE... Heb 9:27 so IN that DEATH, they become "blotted out" of the BOOK of LIFE (the "STATE" of actually LIVING)... But EACH life is found encompassed within the LIFE of the LAMB... for He DIED (tasted "death" - Heb 2:9) for ALL and was RAISED for ALL, being SAVIOR of ALL

So, are we blotted out of the book of life at our physical death, and that is the LOF, or...? I'm confused about how this piece works. The scripture outlines what character flaws "qualify" us for the LOF; most of them are things we'd recognize as sins, but the fearfulness one is kind of a stumper. Can you comment on the listed character flaw piece and how that fits in? I'm trying to get a big picture here of how all these components fit in; I'm clearly not used to thinking of it other than in the way that tradition teaches, so...a bit of a learning curve for me.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister S... :hithere:

Furthermore, ...it is not my endeavor to convince you... but I post these thoughts contrary to your false message of FEAR, ...that others might not be deterred by that negative message... and hear the TRUTH, that GOD LOVES the WORLD, and that they need not be AFRAID of the one who LOVES THEM the MOST...

There is NO PEACE within FEAR, nor is there PEACE in your proposals of TORMENTS beyond this life OF even more TORMENTS...  :rolleye:

When (and/or IF) you arrive at my age (63)... and you are made by arriving there, to observe this lifetime in retrospect... you will likely find a different perspective than you might presently hold...  Having been through the "FIRE" of many "losses", which have been CONSUMED by that "FIRE"...

The "FIRE" of DEATH given unto your life, until you are SICK up to your neck of it... having taken away one by one, all those you LOVE... and the "FIRE" which consumes -- your youth, your health, your career, your usefulness, the list is almost "endless"... but which is NOT devoid of the HOPE (expectation) of the GREAT PROMISES of GOD!  Which shall RENEW and REVEAL the ETERNAL GLORY, which shall SHINE GLORIOUSLY in the FACE of these "FIRE losses" (read JOB to get an idea)

Part of our "Creation" which is ETERNALLY aimed at PERFECTION (completion)... is SUFFERING, for even CHRIST, the Captain of our Salvation was made PERFECT (complete) THROUGH SUFFERING... Heb 2:10

Peace brother Z...  :grouppray:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Thank you Willie.... :HeartThrob:
Your post really helped me today.
I was getting super sucked into a lot of fear for some reason.  :dontknow:
I stayed up all night last night....  :gsad:
I tried to sleep and just kept getting back up pacing around.
Then a noisy mockingbird outside my window would not stop singing.
They do that sometimes, at night.
iy iy iy.

Anyway, again...
Thank you.
You really helped my heart and mind today.
love you.
Thank you.
(( hugs ))

Didn't want to miss the chance to say HI! :hithere: 

As well as that I am thankful that God used my words and they have been a help to you...  :friendstu:

Loveya sis!  :angel4:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[70sevens]

Hi Willie. I appreciate your comments on the LOF with regard to some not being harmed or hurt of it. This does seem to imply that none will avoid it. My question for you is; if none avoid it, what is the significance of the statement that those who are not found in the lambs book of life will be thrown in, in connection with the GWT judgment. I'm still confused about that. Thanks!

What is the lamb's book of life?
Of course, we all know the lamb means the Christ.
Then what is his book of life?

The law was written on the stone tablets (book) by the way of Moses.
And now, the law is to be written on the tablets of human heart by Christ,
which is called grace and salvation.

[2Cor 3:3]
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry,
written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God,
not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

So Lamb's book of life is our individual human hearts.

"Someone is found in the book of life (Lamb's)"
This means that the Word is written on his heart by Jesus Christ.
That is : if he has the Word written on his heart,
then his name is in the Lamb's book of life.

He is not required to go through the Lake of Fire,
because he already has gone through it together with Jesus
during the process of writing the Word in his heart.

God bless.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi bro... :hithere:

:boogie:  :cloud9:

I do get what your saying and am only left in want for more . .but I guess I have never seen that all in the book of life are blotted out and cast into the LOF . . .which that process would then reinstate us back into the book of life?

Guess I'm not fully following that particular line of thought.

No worries mate!  :friendstu:

Let me begin by saying that most believe we begin SINLESS and upon the 1st "sin", our name is stricken from the book... However... If you examine the Parable of the Prodigal... He was WITH the Father, then LEFT, then came BACK...  The book of Job (Job 38:7) notes that ALL the SONS of GOD, rejoiced at the creation...   :dontknow:

ALL means ALL...  We did not "become alive" when born into this life... we have ALWAYS been... and in this observation, shall my beliefs FORK from most others...  When we enter this life, we are blotted out, for we are concieved in SIN as was noted by David: Ps 51:5

If one DIES, one is NOT ALIVE... ALL are APPOINTED to DIE... and in doing so... await RESURRECTION...

The "book" of LIFE is the state of LIVING... That each man is APPOINTED to DIE, means he/she, has a date with DEATH, and therefore is NOT in the "state" (notation/book) of LIFE.

As the song "Come" goes . .still the greatest treasure remains for those, who gladly choose him now . . . . for me, that is the crux of accepting Christ . .of having that personal relationship . .. in that relationship, or "through" that relationship, I see the foregoing of the LOF.  If all are bound for the LOF whether we receive Christ or not, then what was the benefit of the cross?

Or am I misreading what you're saying?

The "benefit" of the cross, is KNOWING CHRIST while in the Sinful state of the flesh bro!  To KNOW CHRIST is the greatest reward of all, for LOVE is the greatest of ALL THINGS, and is the essence of WHO and WHAT, ...GOD is!

The "reward" is not about "how much" we might get for being "good"... That would be promoting selfishness... which seeks to GAIN from the GIVER... indulging oneself in "rewards"...

It is about the thankfulness of the HONOR of being chosen as little portions of LIGHT, shining in the darkness... Which is promoting humility... and in that service, ...GIVES ALL that was "given", back to the GIVER... Which is the greatest "benefit or reward" that we can aspire to... Serving our Creator and His PURPOSE for ALL...  :grouppray:

...willieH  :thumbsup:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Doc!  :hithere:

Ok. I think I'm following you, at least somewhat. One thing I consistently forget is that as Westerners, we tend to view things in a linear fashion, whereas the Hebrews view things in more of a cyclical fashion. (I know, because I recently had a Jewish individual tell me that). It sounds to me like your understanding of this takes more of that approach. It's a sort of repeating cycle rather than a series of events played out in a linear fashion. And because the revelation of Christ (who is outside of time) further defies time-related constraints...It isn't a linear thing at all, is it? Am I getting you?

Now, I am trying to understand this next quote more:

ALL are appointed to DIE... Heb 9:27 so IN that DEATH, they become "blotted out" of the BOOK of LIFE (the "STATE" of actually LIVING)... But EACH life is found encompassed within the LIFE of the LAMB... for He DIED (tasted "death" - Heb 2:9) for ALL and was RAISED for ALL, being SAVIOR of ALL

So, are we blotted out of the book of life at our physical death, and that is the LOF, or...? I'm confused about how this piece works.

We are born "DEAD" bro... CHRIST noted LIVING, Breathing men... as DEAD Matt 8:22  We are cast into this life (LOF), "blotted out"...

Only 2 MEN have not been "born DEAD"... the FIRST Man -- Adam and the SECOND Man - JESUS -- 1 Cor 15:47  The 1st fell to SIN and ALL his decendants DIE in him -- The 2nd did NOT, and ALL return to LIFE in Him -- 1 Cor 15:22

The scripture outlines what character flaws "qualify" us for the LOF; most of them are things we'd recognize as sins, but the fearfulness one is kind of a stumper. Can you comment on the listed character flaw piece and how that fits in?

I don't see these as "character flaws"... I see them as that which emerges from the CARNAL/NATURAL heart that is Desparately wicked -- Jer 17:9

If we are regenerated, then these things cease to be on our "to do, program"... Which does not mean we shall not ever again fall into them... as PAUL very competently noted in his own personal battle while in the flesh -- Rom 7  Rather, it means that the FLESH is recognized as the ENEMY of the SPIRIT, and that the battle rages within us between the two...

FEAR is a NATURAL emotion... As the Scripture however notes:  If GOD be FOR us, WHO can be AGAINST us?  If we are immersed in the confidence of our FATHER, then FEAR ceases to work in us... 1 John 4:18

I just had surgery last September, Doc... and was not the least bit FEARFUL as I potentially faced my end...  Instead, I embraced the LOVE of the FATHER, and He joined me in the "OR"...  When I came out of it, I had such pain and discomfort, at one point, I told Him, "I can't take any more!"... He replied in my spirit: "You CAN, and you WILL... I will be with you and WE shall come forth from this together!" ...well, here I am.  Still ornery as ever, and still breathin' & eatin' & postin' on Tentmaker!   :boogie:  And once in a while, playin' a tune or two on my guitar!  :boogie:  :drummer: :angelharp: :violin: :grouppray: :grouppray: :grouppray: :grouppray:

I'm trying to get a big picture here of how all these components fit in; I'm clearly not used to thinking of it other than in the way that tradition teaches, so...a bit of a learning curve for me.

Don't feel bad my brother... we are ALL on that Learning curve... (or at least, we SHOULD BE!)...  No one "knowsitall"!

The WORD is such a deep OCEAN of LOVE, Wisdom and knowledge, that even though we only have the 66 books of Scripture, and have barely scratched the surface of its content... it was said of CHRIST (the WORD), that if ALL would be written of Him, the WORLD could not CONTAIN the books!

Peace bro...  :Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Doc]

Ok, thanks Willie. I only used the term "character flaws" for want of a better term to use, so thanks for that clarification as well. I've got to ponder these things and let them sink in, and I'm sure I'll have more questions at some point, but I can't think of any more right now...

:thumbsup:

[sparrow]

willieH: Hi sister S... :hithere:

Didn't want to miss the chance to say HI! :hithere: 

As well as that I am thankful that God used my words and they have been a help to you...  :friendstu:

Loveya sis!  :angel4:

...willieH  :cloud9:

:friendstu:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PM...  :sigh:

I, being a victim of this disease, wanted to comment on your post, as I find it arrogant and offensive!  :thumbdown:

"Cancer is a preventable disease; eat from the fruit of the Spirit, not of the flesh."

Are you saying that one such as myself which has contracted this disease has not eaten of the fruit of the spirit?  I have walked with GOD for 33 years, and will do so for the remainder of my lifetime...  :icon_king:

Don't forget the veggies, like broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and brussels sprouts while leaving the animal fat behind.
And let us not leave out the onion, garlic, or cranberries, blueberries, and grapes

Many do this and still get CANCER... There is NO SUREFIRE "preventative method" or EVERYONE would be ON IT...  :thumbdown:

Habits and attitude make a difference.

"Live by what you trust, not by what you fear."

peacemaker

Sorry PM, this is BIG talk from someone who IS NOT facing the problem...  pride goeth before a fall...  :thumbdown:

I am not in FEAR of the Cancer which assaults my body, I trust my life and EVERYTHING in it HAS PURPOSE... (which includes the CANCER I am battling)

I am doing all I can, to include eating of the fruit of the Spirit, and taking any and all treatments available, ...in order to deter it... and the PAIN that accompanies IT...

What you THINK you have sidestepped -- could enter your life at ANY MOMENT... so get off this arrogant "ADVISORY trip" you are on... and find compassion for those who are REALLY dealing with this horrible disease...  :crywipe:

...willieH :rolleye:

[Nathan]

Willie . .it was a couple posts back when you said this, and I haven't read the responses after it but it seems to have struck a chord in me I didn't realize was there.  You said . . .

When we enter this life, we are blotted out, for we are concieved in SIN as was noted by David: Ps 51:5

If one DIES, one is NOT ALIVE... ALL are APPOINTED to DIE... and in doing so... await RESURRECTION...

The first sentence there really resonates . . . it fits in with being born into the first Adam.  The second piece "all are appointed to die" I've always read it to be saying that at the end of our natural lives we are appointed to die . . .it never occured to me that it could also be talking about all created spirit beings are appointed to be born of the flesh, which is actually a result of spiritually dying until, in the flesh, we consciously turn to Christ, thus resurrecting our spirit once again and now, we live again in this life, being "born again" in the spirit.

Was this the direction you were going with your thoughts on this?

[Nathan]

Having read your follow-up after that one Willie I am amazed.  And like Doc, I want to let this sink in to me . . . it has a very familiar sound of truth to it even though my mind has never encounted this particular approach before . . .my spirit seems to already be relating to it.  I love it when stuff like that happens!!

Thanks for taking the time on this on . . .it's fascinating.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I with you on this Nathan. I've been reading and silently waiting on the Lord to expand this in me. Something occurred to me just now.

We know the outer court is all of creation represented, and that is also where the altar is, which is representative of death of the flesh. Blessings....

[sheila]

  Good words Willie,

  His seed must fall to the earth and die, when it is sown it is

sown in weakness/death/corruption...and it is raised in

power/spirit/immortality.[we enter the valley of the shadow of

death when we enter into the family of Adam/born into sin]


 Really appreciated your expounding on the error of thinking

linearly as to these prophecys.

                           Sheila

 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Wow Sheila, your first line there just continued the jolting..... :mshock: Blessings...

[sheila]

 He's wonderful,isn't He ? :HeartThrob:

[peacemaker]

willieH: Hi PM...  :sigh:

I, being a victim of this disease, wanted to comment on your post, as I find it arrogant and offensive!  :thumbdown:

"Cancer is a preventable disease; eat from the fruit of the Spirit, not of the flesh."

Are you saying that one such as myself which has contracted this disease has not eaten of the fruit of the spirit?  I have walked with GOD for 33 years, and will do so for the remainder of my lifetime...  :icon_king:

Don't forget the veggies, like broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and brussels sprouts while leaving the animal fat behind.
And let us not leave out the onion, garlic, or cranberries, blueberries, and grapes

Many do this and still get CANCER... There is NO SUREFIRE "preventative method" or EVERYONE would be ON IT...  :thumbdown:

Habits and attitude make a difference.

"Live by what you trust, not by what you fear."

peacemaker

Sorry PM, this is BIG talk from someone who IS NOT facing the problem...  pride goeth before a fall...  :thumbdown:

I am not in FEAR of the Cancer which assaults my body, I trust my life and EVERYTHING in it HAS PURPOSE... (which includes the CANCER I am battling)

I am doing all I can, to include eating of the fruit of the Spirit, and taking any and all treatments available, ...in order to deter it... and the PAIN that accompanies IT...

What you THINK you have sidestepped -- could enter your life at ANY MOMENT... so get off this arrogant "ADVISORY trip" you are on... and find compassion for those who are REALLY dealing with this horrible disease...  :crywipe:

...willieH :rolleye:

Willie,

I have a great deal of love, compassion and empathy for others, more so, than your accusations imply. Furthermore, you have no idea what others, including myself, have, are, or will be going through in regards to our own lives in which you make an assumption on the basis of an "ADVISORY trip" – talk about arrogance and pridefulness?   

The use of certain words convey an effect, given the thought and intent of the heart. Mine were not malicious in nature, nor were they meant to offend you, or for you to take personally.

I pray daily, brother, not only for you but for ALL others as well. And, if you desire to go into this further, then we will need to discuss the effects in relationship to the affect on our overall health; physically, mentally and Spiritually.

Paul asked a question in Gal. 3:3; "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the spirit, are you now made perfect in flesh?"

And, in Gal. 6: 7-8, he says; "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows (physically, mentally or Spiritually), that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh reaps corruption, but he who sows to his spirit has life."

As stated previously: Habits and attitude make a difference.

Studies comparing diets and diseases, given the diversity of populations, have long shown that the risk of disease (i.e. cancer, etc.) is substantially lower in countries – where there is a higher variety and consumption of; vegetables, fruits and whole grains. But the mind and emotions affect the overall outcome of our health; for so as a man thinks.

Your body is a temple; the dwelling place for this sojourn. It is not just a physical body, but the residence of His Spirit.

If a diet consists of catch-up, french fries, and hamburger meat we're in trouble, but let us not be egotistical!

peacemaker

[willieH]

willieH: Hi 70-7's!  :hithere:

Tip of the marnin' taya!  :grin:

FIRST ---  You continue to avoid the "never die" issue... If it is as you believe, that "believers in CHRIST shall "NEVER DIE"... WHO are the "DEAD in CHRIST" 1 Thess 5:17, Zeek?

SECOND --- The 2nd DEATH is the DEATH which follows the 1st DEATH... so what, pray-tell is the 1st DEATH Zeek?  :dontknow:

The DEATH that ...WE die... and IS "appointed" ...is the one which FILLS the GRAVEYARDS, Zeek!  For it is FROM the GRAVES that ALL shall "hear His voice"... John 5:28 --  :dontknow:
...willieH  :thumbsup:

We all need to change our framework of the Scriptures understanding.
The Scriptures are saying things from our physical birth to physical death,
not afterlife.

FIRST -- we do not NEED to change our "framework" at your suggestion...  All might consider your proposals, but it is not a requirement that we "change" anything, just because YOU suggest it...  :laughing7:

SECOND -- "Afterlife" is not a term used in the WORD, and is therefore impertinent in discussion of it...  There actually is no such thing as "afterlife"... there is only LIFE.  All were ALIVE (in the Eternal realm), then became part of the DEAD (1st death) born into SIN while alive, ...then DIE (2nd death) and await Resurrection... which is the RETURN to LIFE in the Eternal realm...

THIRD -- the RESURRECTION of the DEAD spoken of by PAUL occurs at the LAST TRUMP, this does NOT occur life by life, it occurs at the END of TIME, upon the LAST DAY -- 1 Cor 15:42-58 ...We do not put on INCORRUPTION until we are RAISED from the CORRUPTION which sent us to DEATH... for the NATURAL BODY is that which is SOWN - 1 Cor 15:44

1. First

Believers in Christ, if they are really born again Christians, will never die.

I have already thoroughly addressed this with Zeek... that CHRIST noted one will "never DIE"... is misunderstood... For the word NEVER means:  Not at ANY TIME or moment...

I see your observation as incorrectly observed for 2 reasons...

ONE -- CHRIST noted LIVING men as DEAD (so ALL, before "regeneration" are found in DEATH) and,

TWO -- ALL shall enter the GRAVE of DEATH... and are APPOINTED to this death... Read Hebrews 11... ALL the great men and women of FAITH -- DIED, and await the Resurrection and RETURN to LIFE...  :dontknow:

TWO deaths... disqualify the word "NEVER"...  What CHRIST was noting, was that the FAITH which is the WORD revealed in any given LIFE, is that which NEVER DIES... for the WORD NEVER DIES...

The dead in Christ in 1Thess 4:17 is the man whose old man is died
on the cross with Jesus Christ, and resurrected as new man who will never die.

ALL MEN "died" on the cross with CHRIST, For it is the SIN of ALL MEN (which includes ALL of our lives) that CHRIST tasted for ALL, ...and thereby ALL MEN are "raised" to LIFE with Him bro...

Also, the dead of 1Thess 4:17 are shown in the following verse
[John 11:25]
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.
He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

1 Thess 4:17 Does not depict men to NOT DIE... How may they RISE from DEATH if they are NOT IN IT?

John 11:25 is not saying you will NOT DIE... these WORDS are guranteeing that even though you WILL DIE, ...the belief you had will cause LIFE to return...

The man who dies in Christ Jesus is the man mentioned in 1Thess 4:17.

Already addressed this...

This also means that the death of our sinful old man on the cross with Jesus (Rom 5:6-7),
which eliminates sins, death, hades, everything.
And this is the second death.

You are welcome to believe this 70... but it is a self-condensed fallacy which you have created in your own theological mind, via the denial which hopes to avoid the APPOINTMENT you have with DEATH... the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... you must pay them with your life... the seed must be SOWN into the EARTH in order to RISE to LIFE...

[Rom 5:6-7]
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that
the body of sin might be done away with,
that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

You are not FREED from SIN, until you are DEAD... 1 John 1:8 -- Rom 7  Just because you endeavor to follow the SPIRIT, does not mean that you have completely disattached yourself from SINNING bro...

2. Second Death

Second death is the death of death, as someone said.
So the birth as sinful man is first death,
second death is the death of that sinful man on the cross.
So second death is born-again.

So is your picture...  But you have an APPOINTMENT with the GRAVE, irregardless... 

3. Grave

This is also referring to spiritual death.
Time will come when the dead, sinful men, will hear the voice of living Christ.
(Here I see not many have ears to hear)
When he hears Him, he will be invited to death on the cross, the second death,
and will be resurrected with Christ.
All these things are to happen in this lifetime,
unless otherwise Jesus had died in vain.

Just because you have a viewpoint, IT is not an absolute determination that concludes that CHRIST "died IN VAIN", and IS so because of your "conclusion"... :rolleye:

Can't agree with this brother... for ALL men shall witness the coming of CHRIST -- Rev 1:7 (ALL KINDREDS)

ALL are required to RETURN to the DUST bro... Gen 3:19 -- John 5:28... We FOLLOW CHRIST brother... CHRIST went to the GRAVE...  He ROSE from the GRAVE, bro... and if we do not enter into the GRAVE, we do not FOLLOW Him... neither do we FOLLOW Him in resurrection FROM that GRAVE...

[John 5:28]
"Do not be amazed at this,
for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

All above deaths are spiritual.
So, somehow WilleH is mixing that is spiritual with physical some parts.

God bless.

So says you...  If one does NOT enter the GRAVE, then there is NO "resurrection" FROM IT...  CHRIST's "grave" was NOT a SPIRITUAL one, and neither are these which are  mentioned in John 5:28

You would have the FLESH (never) die and then somehow, in NEVER DYING (even though your flesh did which is part of YOU - Instead, YOU would "go to Heaven"... which would make GOD a RESPECTER of persons. 

For if ANY preceed another into the JOY of GOD, then GOD has shown PARTIALITY, for one "dirt clod" over another...

Failing to see that it is the REVELATION of the WORD in you that shall NEVER DIE for the WORD ...NEVER dies...  As I have already plainly noted, NEVER means at NOT ANY TIME...

What "belief" actually happens to be  -- is the WORD, revealed to finite men...

And while in this life, only in few is the WORD REVEALED... but ALL are REVEALED by the conclusion of the LAST DAY...

You WILL die brother for you are APPOINTED to die and RETURN to the DUST for that appointment was made for ALL in Adam by GOD... irregardless of the traditional thinking you shall "go to heaven"... and COMPLETELY avoid DEATH on a "never die" basis...

You are welcome to bask in this fallacy if you so choose brother...  :sigh:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Doc]

It seems pretty simple to me when you look at the correct translation from the concordant literal. Those who "believe will not be dying for the eon". Everyone else stays dead until after the eon referred to.


What we are saved/ kept from harm of is both eonian/ second death (believers) and eternal (unbelievers also) death.

[70sevens]

1.

The framework of the Bible is very simple.
We came here in this world as sinners.
We are to be saved from the sin.
God send us Jesus, the Saviour to save us from the sin.
When we are saved we will live sin-free life thereafter.
And when we die, we will be with God forever.

So all the words in the Scriptures are mentioning
spiritual things happening during the above process
while we are living here.

Many people think they have salvation already, (so cheaply? so imaginatively?),
so they try to do something else with the Scriptues, except his salvation.
But, remember, the Scriputes is meant only to save the reader himself, nothing else.
If we are saved, we would have been leading the life of Jesus, Pual, Peter,
not spending time on discussing and arguing over imaginary afterlife events.

[1Ti 4:7]
Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales;
rather, train yourself to be godly.


2.

Just think!
The current Scriptures are written on physical papers.
Afterlife,  we will be without flesh, being spirit,
and the spirits cannot touch and read the current physical Scriptures.
Thus, it is not sensible to think that the current Bible would allude to the events afterlife.
Afterlife events  if any, are for the spirits to participate.
Therefore, if there are such events of afterlife,
then it should have been recorded on the paper of that world,
not on the paper of this world.

Just live today while living today!
Don't live yesterday. Don' live tomorrow either. 
We will be frustrated.

[Livelystone]

Thus, it is not sensible to think that the current Bible would allude to the events afterlife.

No..... that is not so.

When John saw the GWT scene he saw into something that is coming to everyone at some point in "time" that would certainly qualify to the label of "afterlife"

Doug

[70sevens]

1.

Jesus said to a certain lawyer (Luke 10:25):
"What is written in the Bible?
How does it read to you?"

John wrote GWT scene.
How you read it is up to you.
What is written about GWT scene would be different from
how you read it.


2.

If John says whatever, and if the Bible says whatever,
but if that stays only in your imagination, what is that to you?

If the Bible says all men will be saved,
but if you are not saved, what is that to you?

If the Bible says, God is merciful,
but if you did not receive the mercy, what is that to you?

[Livelystone]

I have noticed that you like to change the Word of God to sound that it says something that it does not say....... have you ever wondered why?

However here the Bible says something that you need to start yielding to because you do not have the right to change it...... it is God's Word and not yours to change

2Ti 3:16   All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The passage that you are trying to change regarding the GWT clearly states the opposite of your words and the conclusion is not up in the air as you would like us to believe

Here is another one by Jesus that explains what is going on within someone when their mind changes the truth of God's Holy Word.

Mar 4:15    And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Blessings

Doug

[70sevens]

I have noticed that you like to change the Word of God to sound that it says something that it does not say....... have you ever wondered why?
However here the Bible says something that you need to start yielding to because you do not have the right to change it...... it is God's Word and not yours to change
2Ti 3:16   All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The passage that you are trying to change regarding the GWT clearly states the opposite of your words and the conclusion is not up in the air as you would like us to believe

Well said.
Who, do you think, makes GWT to be in the air?

Livelystone : GWT is the afterlife event which will happen             
                   when men become spirits(flesh-less) or further down the road.
70sevens :    For true believers, GWTwill happen within them while living.
                   For others, GWT time will be their physical death.

Don't produce ghost gospel out of the Scriptures.
This is how you distort the word of God, maybe unknowingly,
to the story of childish fantasy novels.

Here is another one by Jesus that explains what is going on within someone when their mind changes the truth of God's Holy Word.
Mar 4:15    And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

I am now sowing the word of God in you heart,
but your existing, traditional, human(non-God) thinking comes immediately,
and takes the word of God away.
Eventually, you cannot bring fruits out this word of God.

You have to spend more hard time in your life with your own thinking that you see right.
When you become exhausted, you will give up your previous thinking,
and will hear the word of God without being deceived by Satan.

And that's not all.
In order to bear fruit,
you have to go through the stages of "Stony ground" and "thorns".
Only after that, your heart will become "good ground" that shows the fruit in front of God.
I hope now you would know "where you are" in front of God.

[Mat 3:10]
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees:
therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
and cast into the fire.

[Livelystone]

seventy sevens said

Who, do you think, makes GWT to be in the air?

Livelystone : GWT is the afterlife event which will happen             
                   when men become spirits(flesh-less) or further down the road.
70sevens :    For true believers, GWTwill happen within them while living.
                   For others, GWT time will be their physical death.

In regards to your last post only the above was your first mistake

Fact:      Man has always been a spirit...... he was spirit back when the morning stars leaped for joy before the foundations of the earth were laid and was spirit when given the name Adam.......... He was spirit when he chose to become one with Eve who already had the serpent seed instead of the women whom he was first created with before Eve ever came to be, the one with the seed that  will later bruise Satan and whom did not get the boot from the garden and who is remaining as our inheritance undefiled and in heaven (1Pet 1;4,) the mind of Christ that is the tabernacle for the Spirit of God.

He was spirit when God knew us in the blood before we came to be spirit within flesh......... until you grasp that you will never move beyond elementary knowledge and will not be able to produce more than thirty fold outer court fruit

Don't produce ghost gospel out of the Scriptures.
This is how you distort the word of God, maybe unknowingly,
to the story of childish fantasy novels

LOL.......... unlike you I have "a more sure word of prophecy".

Peter said that because he had witnessed the transformation just as I have already been before the GWT and it was exactly as John saw in Re.20 11-13 when John saw all the dead (not just the "dead in Christ" in this life) resurrected to the GWT aka Judgment Seat of Christ

FYI the following is a cut and paste from part of my testimony that has been online for several years.

Dec.15th 1995 is the time that stands out most predominately among the warnings and callings that God sent to me. While traveling along in morning rush hour traffic at approximately 65 mph and placing a cell phone call, I drifted off the freeway and onto the shoulder When I looked up there was a stalled semi with a large piece of earth moving equipment on its trailer fifty feet in front of me. With no place to go I hit him so hard in a large car that I reduced it to the size of a compact. The spectators could not believe that I was still alive let alone continue to talk to them while the paramedics immobilized me and prepared me for the trip to the hospital. All I could think was that they had no idea who was lying there in front of them and that this was just one more time that I had cheated death. When they wheeled me to the back of the ambulance I got the biggest shock of my life when I suddenly realized that I was about to die and that I had only seconds left to live.

My first thoughts were about how and when my family would find out that I had died and how would my dog get fed and taken care of. Then it got more serious as I realized that it did not matter whether I was wealthy or poor or whether I was driving a luxury car or a junker because I was about to leave this earth. I did not feel qualified to pray for my life at that time however I had a one-way conversation with God and I acknowledged to him that my life had been one of foolishness. I told Him that I no longer had the strength to live and if I was to do so it would take his direct intervention in one way or another because it was now all up to him. At that time I flat lined the monitoring equipment and the call went out to the highway patrol that they were losing me and at the same time and for the first time in my life I had peace and was grateful that dying wasn't all that bad. Keep in mind that I was totally immobilized and could only look straight up had I still been able to see. However I was soon looking at the paramedics eye to eye and at face level as they tried to restart my heart. Their attempts were futile and I was hoping that they would slow down before they ruined the best thing that had ever happened to me. The next thing that happened was that I was taken up into a large area where I could not see anyone else but could sense life around me. I was then "brought" up to a large table that had a very large book on it that was open but was placed in such a manner so that it could be read only by someone on the other side whom I could not see. I knew that this had to be the Book of Life that I had heard about as a youth and that if my name did not appear in it I would have to go to hell. This was very serious indeed but as I stood there the book closed. That did not seem to be a very good sign and I resigned myself to the fact that I would have to go to hell because I had had plenty of opportunities to change but now it was to late. I knew that it wouldn't do any good to cry and beg but that I should at least take it like a man because there would be plenty of time to cry where I was about to go.

Before any sort of trap door opened up to send me to hell I was taken to a second table just like the first one except this book was closed. I was somewhat confused as to what this second book was all about when suddenly it opened up and this scene was a repetition of the first scene. This entire second book made no sense at all as I had only heard of one book but it at least seemed to be a delay in what I already knew was about to happen. Then all of a sudden my name was found in the second book and I thought to myself "great" I get to go to heaven. Before that happened I felt something really good in my throat and thought that they had just given me oxygen temporarily forgetting that oxygen was one of the first things that they had given to me back at the scene of the accident some miles distant. I didn't understand all the uproar that was going on about me at the hospital. It seemed as if the entire hospital was involved around me and I was worried that somehow they had found out who I was. People kept on pointing to me and one of the nurses said she couldn't look at me and ran out of the room as if I was something evil and people kept on asking me if I remembered anything at all while I was unconscious. I told them they were mistaken and that I had been conscious the entire time and wanted to know when I could be released. An investigator from the highway patrol showed up and told me that she was there because they had been told that I had died and then had heard that not only was I alive but that I wanted to go home. She ended up getting rather upset with me and told me I didn't know how lucky I was and that in fourteen years she had never seen or heard of anything like what she was seeing now and that I should be more grateful.

To me it was just another close call but by the next day I started to tell people what I have just shared with you. I couldn't deal with what I had been through as it had affected me emotionally and when I would try and tell people about it and that there was life on the "other side" they would tell me to get some more rest and maybe I would be ok. This should have been a turning point in my life but it wasn't and I remember asking God why he had done this to me. Far better that he had kept me because now I had something else to hide and I decided to do whatever it took to try and put this entire incident behind me and before long it was "business as usual".

I am now sowing the word of God in you heart,
but your existing, traditional, human(non-God) thinking comes immediately,
and takes the word of God away

No..... You are sowing lies that are contrary to the Word of God and that is why you disputed the law in our last tit for tat. If His Law was written on your heart you would speak differently than you do

God's Word is Spirit and just as the first coming of Jesus was the Word made flesh so will the second time "of this man appearing on earth as you have seen Him ascend unto heaven"

His Spirit brings forth the Works of God within man and from man........ for those who understand that they expect to see signs and wonders rather than hope for them....... when they do not appear it is time to reason why.

However I have confidence that in all of His Choosing He will fulfill His promise and that includes those who still cannot yet understand what the spirit has to say.

So I say blessings to you too.

Doug

[peacemaker]

"Every man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the motives of the heart."

peacemaker  :coffee2: