UR and the "afterlife"

[Doc]

I recently ran across this article by Martin Zender.

http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature/ludicrous_threat_of_eternal_torment.htm

I find myself agreeing with most of it, but the last paragraph is where I start running into some questions. He seems to believe in some form of "soul sleep" for the wicked during the last great eon. My question about this is: if this is true, who are the believers/ Sons ruling/ reigning over during this (millenial?) period?

[Tim B]

Maybe they just reign over the Earth and cultivate and keep watch over it. You know, like the animals and the environment. Just a thought. Honestly I don't know much about any "last great eon" though, so I'm basically throwing ideas out there lol

[bobf]

I recently ran across this article by Martin Zender.

http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature/ludicrous_threat_of_eternal_torment.htm

I find myself agreeing with most of it, but the last paragraph is where I start running into some questions. He seems to believe in some form of "soul sleep" for the wicked during the last great eon. My question about this is: if this is true, who are the believers/ Sons ruling/ reigning over during this (millenial?) period?

Not saying I necessarily agree with this, but it at least can be without contradiction since when the millenium begins not everyone will have died.  For example, suppose the 1st resurrection were tommorow.  There would still be plenty of people left on earth to reign over.

[legoman]

Hi Doc,

I like some of Martin Zender's stuff.  It was one of the sites that I intially frequented about UR.

Anyway on to your question... I've thought about it too before.

Is it possible we the elect will be reigining with Christ for multiple eons?  I think it is quite likely and I think 100% guaranteed there are at least two eons, possibly more.

Now what is the purpose of the elect?  To work with Christ to be preists, lords, kings, judges, and even saviours.  To save who?  The rest of mankind of course.

Now consider this monumental task.  If the elect is to lead the entire rest of mankind to Christ - this will involve preaching the word to them, showing them correction etc.  There will be a lot of planning involved.

Would not the "millenium" ie. the first eon of reigning with Christ be used as planning stage, where the elect are prepared for this monumental task ahead of them?  (Or maybe the elect will already be prepared by the time they die - I don't know)  Maybe specific details will be planned in the millenium - who is responsible for teaching who from the vast sea of unbelievers.

Then the wicked are resurrected in the next eon.  They appear before the GWT and are then thrown into the LoF.  If the LoF is actually God and the elect, then the elect will then carry out the plans of how each individual would come to christ.

Just some ideas vaguely based on scripture.... anyway was Martin only referring to the "millenium" portion where there would be no unbelievers?  I think that is correct, because that eon is reserved for the elect to be with Christ.  I believe it is for the final training and planning for the great task ahead of the elect.

Legoman

[Doc]

Hi Doc,

I like some of Martin Zender's stuff.  It was one of the sites that I intially frequented about UR.

Anyway on to your question... I've thought about it too before.

Is it possible we the elect will be reigining with Christ for multiple eons?  I think it is quite likely and I think 100% guaranteed there are at least two eons, possibly more.

Now what is the purpose of the elect?  To work with Christ to be preists, lords, kings, judges, and even saviours.  To save who?  The rest of mankind of course.

Now consider this monumental task.  If the elect is to lead the entire rest of mankind to Christ - this will involve preaching the word to them, showing them correction etc.  There will be a lot of planning involved.

Would not the "millenium" ie. the first eon of reigning with Christ be used as planning stage, where the elect are prepared for this monumental task ahead of them?  (Or maybe the elect will already be prepared by the time they die - I don't know)  Maybe specific details will be planned in the millenium - who is responsible for teaching who from the vast sea of unbelievers.

Then the wicked are resurrected in the next eon.  They appear before the GWT and are then thrown into the LoF.  If the LoF is actually God and the elect, then the elect will then carry out the plans of how each individual would come to christ.

Just some ideas vaguely based on scripture.... anyway was Martin only referring to the "millenium" portion where there would be no unbelievers?  I think that is correct, because that eon is reserved for the elect to be with Christ.  I believe it is for the final training and planning for the great task ahead of the elect.

Legoman

Yes, I think you're correct in that the elect will be reigning for multiple eons. In fact, I think the word "millenium" is actually millenia, although this is contested. We do know there is more than one future eon though.

I thought everyone appeared before the GWT for judgment, not just unbelievers.

It does seem that Martin is referring to the "millenium" portion, although he doesn't state that explicitly. It just seemed odd to me that we were supposed to be bringing in the rest of the harvest, while the rest of the harvest is dead. But I can see how your explanation could make sense.

[legoman]

Really its quite confusing for me too, but thats just what I've pieced together so far.

Reading through the scriptures, its not entirely clear to me:

2 resurrections at different times or everyone raised at same time?
only the wicked judged at GWT or everyone?
elect judged in this life and at GWT, or just in this life?

So far I think it is something like this:
1 - elect judged in this life only
2 - non-elect judged at GWT (although they also must receive judgments in this life too)
3 - elect raised when Christ returns
4 - non-elect raised when?  I don't know - probably not when elect are raised, but later on.
5 - GWT occurs after first eon with Christ, but I'm not sure.  This would imply non-elect are raised just before GWT
6 - how long does LoF last?  eon or eon(s) or just a "moment" that feels like eternity
7 - once LoF judgement is done do eons conclude immediately?
8 - when all eons end, does time stop, or does time carry on - I tend to think time continues on.  We will probably keep on living and growing, literally forever, with no bounds.  ie. His Kingdom will increase without limit (Isaiah 9:7).

Points 1-3 I'm fairly sure on.  Points 4 & 5 are fuzzy and it only gets worse from there. 

Am I elect or not?  NO IDEA!

Must study more...

[legoman]

I am envisioning something like this.  Doc and legoman (me) are resurrected and chosen to be part of the elect.

"Doc, legoman, congrats on being part of the elect.  But we got a big job ahead of us.  Doc, you are responsible for bringing the first million unbelievers to Christ and showing them the way.  Legoman, you take the next million.  Let's figure out how you're going to do this." etc.

And of course God already knows how He's going to do this, but the elect won't know it yet.

Could be an interesting millenium...

And of course I could be completely wrong.

[WhiteWings]

4 - non-elect raised when?  I don't know - probably not when elect are raised, but later on.

Revelation 20:4-5  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

5 - GWT occurs after first eon with Christ, but I'm not sure.  This would imply non-elect are raised just before GWT

Yep.

6 - how long does LoF last?  eon or eon(s) or just a "moment" that feels like eternity

My latest passion.... Study feasts, sabbath years and jubelees and you will know much more of the Biblical clock.
I still didn't break the puzzle. To tired to tired. But to unrestly to really sleep  :sigh:
The following pure gueswork. I haven't found a single verse that mentions it. I present it just as 'something nice to know'
Then why mention it? Because the Bible speaks of harvesting the world. Of first fruit harvest.
Jesus also comes for His bride (elect) that links to Jewish marriage customs (mentioned in the Bible)
Basicly the end times have the harvest/marriage componets in its story.


The Bible mentions 2 harvests.
Feast of first-fruits -> Spring harvest -> elect/saints -> 17th Nisan -> that April 10th this year.
Feast of Tabernacles -> Fall harvest -> 15th Tishri -> that's on October 13th this year.

My little theory based on harvests.
At a certain point in time people get judged.
The rightous get age-during life. The rightious are the saints; the first-fruits.
The wicked get age during punishment.
My thought is that the wicked get out of LoF at Tabernacles. They get harvested.

That's a total of 186 days - 6 months

Theory based on marriage rites.
Custom is that the husband to be goes to the brides hous at a secret time. He blow a trumpet (feast of trumpets)
His friends 'steal' the bride (comes thief in the night) The groom (jesus) takes the bride (elect) to his fathers (god) house and stay in the bridal suite (heaven) for 7 days
-> 7 years tribulation start.
The father makes all kind of arrangement/announcements during this period.
Then the bride and groom come out of the bridal suite and all celebrate. Marriage supper.
So that could mean LoF is 7 days or 7 months. Pehaps 3.5 months (the bad half of tribulation)

7 - once LoF judgement is done do eons conclude immediately?

Nope.
Revelation 20:7-8  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,  8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

8 - when all eons end, does time stop, or does time carry on - I tend to think time continues on.  We will probably keep on living and growing, literally forever, with no bounds.  ie. His Kingdom will increase without limit (Isaiah 9:7).

Looking at it true a scientific eye.... The size of new Jerusalem defies currently known laws of physics (as I understand them) (not even sunlight is possible anymore) Food would mean decay and that impossible with.
But it's sorta new creation so the laws of nature can be changed completely.
So dunno....

[sparrow]

I think it could possibly be a complete sham.

It just all seems like a total distraction to get your mind off what you should really be thinking about.
(loving.)



I really have an odd aversion to this subject. because I just feel something...is...off....or wrong, somehow..

Anyhow, if it were were true, factual...(which I have no idea, but here are some thoughts.)

... then I see people from all walks of life doing this "ruling"....and really I don't even think I could see it as "ruling" so much as "serving". And I think people, ALL types of people from ALL types of different religions and NON-religions, YES atheists even.... being these "rulers". I see these "rulers" or "servers, people serving others helping them to cultivate love", as being those people who cultivated love in their earthly lives. Those whose main goal was to love and put more love in the world and just do what they can do to help others. I see these people as those with great compassion, selflessness, kindness, MEEKNESS, gentleness.... those who walked the way of CHRIST, even if they never heard of Jesus' name. Those whom God reached and maybe they didn't even REALIZE that God was talking to them in the first place.

THESE are the witnesses I see. And I see these witnesses, these rulers as just serving others, serving their brothers and sisters with gentle kindness, maybe helping them to discover love and goodness. I see it as a truly beautiful, wondrous thing.

God doesn't see our religion or lack thereof.
God sees our heart.
I believe this is KEY.
And wipes out a lot of confusion.
So many will be surprised, I believe at this simple truth.

Well, either way.... whether this millenial reign thing is an actual reality or not... this is just the way I see it.
I think it would be fun to serve. Fun to help others discover how much God loves us and help others discover that..hey! GOD IS LOVE!!!!!!!

That's a nice thought. I'd love to do that.
But God has a lot more work to do on me...
:sigh:   :laughing7: It's just as well, I wouldn't mind being surrounded by all of those wonderful, loving, selfless people helping me to be more loving. That is definitely a wonderful thing to look forward to, if it is so.... I have known several people in my life who, I feel, fit this description. I'd love to be surrounded by those type of people. They're the best type of people in the world. I remember a friend of my mom's. Her name was Becky. She was one of the most selfless, kindest people I've ever met. If ever there were someone to rule and serve others to help them know LOVE... it would be Becky.

well... peace ya'll....

just some thoughts and rambling.
that's all.

:icon_flower:

[sheila]

Time is only measured in respect to us dwelling in our fleshly

/sinful/bodies. Time ceases when you enter the eternal realm.

   First Adam...Adam lived 930 years, and then he dies...add 70

years to that and you have the time man dwells in  sinful flesh.

or the consumation of first Adam...the resurrection is Christ.or

the secound/last Adam..a life giving spirit.


  Psalms 90;10 the length of our days is seventy years..

  [if those  days were not cut short no flesh would be saved=

  but for the sake of the elect[all mankind] those days were

shortened[or our time in flesh shortened frommm 1000 to 70]


  1000 years of first Adam...of which Christ has reign to

resurrect and save/judge kingdom of darkness/prince of this

world.


  on the day you eat from the tokogae ye shall die...a day is as

a thousand years unto the Lord.


In the 1000 years Satan is bound,the spiritually dead raised to

life...think of Christ/ disciples  spiritually alive and binding

satan during their time here in flesh...at their secound death

[flesh vessel] they are not hurt and

Satan is loosed to go forth and deceive again[thus we have  all

these lies] He that now restraineth is taken out of the way=

  Christ's apostle's dying martyrs deaths for their wittness

  whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven.


  Remember the secound death[of their flesh] has no power

over them[the grave can not hold them,either]

   the apostles are seated with Christ in the heavens spiritually

  until the  death of their flesh and then taken to the place He

prepared when He returned for them..when they left their flesh

vessel..they entered into Jerusalem above..

  we dwell in the 1000years at this time...satan has ran rampant

in deceiving those who dwell in the flesh...alot of people will

remain spiritually dead until the death of their flesh[or the end

of the 1000 year reign]  the GWT concludes death to sinful flesh

and free gift of eternal life to all mankind. the LOF is this

JUDGEMENT..sin in the flesh has always been condemned and

death is it's wage....the free gift is given...and thus death and

the grave is then thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE..which means it

becomes obsolete.. The free gift that is given is the spirit..

which is eternal life . Thus,whatever part our sinful flesh played

along with satan and the demons..it receives that same wage

as theirs...portions in the lake of fire..or everlasting cutting off.

or something that is become obsolete.

  You are a new creature....just as a butterfly has no appearnce

of a worm when it breaks free from it's cacoon...so shall we

have no appearnce of sin when we are raised up from the dust

and put on our beautiful garments.


   Now we are quickly approaching the end of all time...or the

total harvest of the earth...or the full number of

Zion /Jerusalem Above's deliverance...that is why there is such

increase of knowledge as Daniel prophesied.

    All these judgements,the 1000 years, satans doom ,new

earth and new heavens are occurring simultaneously as

mankind dwells in their fleshly vessels ...

  that day and hour no one knows but the Father is because we

all leave./die at different times here....the hour of judgement

is death to the sinful flesh / wages of sin;and the day is the

Day of Salvation...as the Day of Judgement and HOUR OF TRIAL

2Peter 2;9 -if this is so,then the Lord knows how to rescue

godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of

judgement.  Rev 3;8,10  See, I have placed before you an open

door that no one can shut[Mt 25;33]

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently,I will also

keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the

whole world TO TEST THOSE WHO LIVE ON THE EARTH