"Saved" from what?

[WhiteWings]

I lot of good post since I posted. Since my last post I haven't been able to access the forum because of some stupid "this page cannot be displayed".    :sigh: Someone said I should register again and maybe that would help. Anyway, I hate to lose my post count but the next time this happens I will register again.

Doesn't sound logical to me because if the TM site can't be found you can't register either.
I had similar problems and did certain checks. The problem lays on teh route between your/mine PC and this site.
Lets simply call it a traffic jam.

WhiteWings,

I looked up a few scriptures about fire while I couldn't get back on here. You will have to look them up though.  (Deut. 4:33-36) (Isaiah 9:18:19) (Luke 12:49) (Isaiah 43:2) (1Peter 1:7) Isaiah 33:11-15)

Bottom line is I think, Christ didn't save us from anything, He saved us FOR something.

Last Sunday I've read a new take on that. I just put it here for concideration because it certainly has its merit.
Jesus didn't save us from something => LoF, Hell, correction, etc
Jesus did save us from a state => The state of being dead. -> Wages of sin is death
:2c:

[CHB]

This is quite a list . . .I think it's one thing to expect this of an adult, but an entirely different matter when seeing it applicable to a toddler or an infant.  I responded to this yesterday but I was timed-out and lost the whole message.  Romans 3 speaks about law is the knowledge of sin . . . to me, this is saying that when I focus on the shadows in others, I'm actually living in law.  But the righteousness of God manifests "without" the law.  Or, "outside" of the law . . .or . . .by ignoring the restraints placed by the law, we are free in Christ.  So if this is the case, then measuring one with a list such as this really isn't profitable.

Yes, Scripture quotes a list of characteristics that love is . . .but one, love doesn't manifest only by what's on the list . . and two, true love makes no logical sense.  It doesn't make sense that we were called righteous before we ever acknowledged God at all.  It doesn't make sense that we deserve death but are given life.  It doesn't make sense that a person can be exposed to life and still choose death . . .even though in the end, life is still granted.
I'm not willing to believe that little babies, and children of innocence are to experience this LOF which may have wonderful outcomes in the end, it still appears to be a place of great violence.

We scratch out heads at the idea of ET'ers choosing to believe that their friends and family are in for an eternity of fire and torment when it's so much liberating to believe that all will be saved . . .and yet, ya want to choose to believe that babies and children are going to go to this hardened place in the LOF?  I just can't get myself to do it.

Hi Nathan,

You said "babies and children are going to go to this hardened place in the LOF"  If we all go through this lake of fire as we live, then babies and children will have an opportunity to live their lives and learn about salvation and God the same as the rest of us. I believe that when Christ comes back all will be resurrected to human life, those who don't know about God and salvation will be taught by God, {live their lives through the LOF} that will include babies and children. I believe the death they die after this will be spiritual, not a physical death. Those that understand now in this life will have a part in teaching those who will never understand in this life. There are a lot of Old Testament scriptures that show this.

CHB

[CHB]

I lot of good post since I posted. Since my last post I haven't been able to access the forum because of some stupid "this page cannot be displayed".    :sigh: Someone said I should register again and maybe that would help. Anyway, I hate to lose my post count but the next time this happens I will register again.

Doesn't sound logical to me because if the TM site can't be found you can't register either.
I had similar problems and did certain checks. The problem lays on teh route between your/mine PC and this site.
Lets simply call it a traffic jam.

WhiteWings,

I looked up a few scriptures about fire while I couldn't get back on here. You will have to look them up though.  (Deut. 4:33-36) (Isaiah 9:18:19) (Luke 12:49) (Isaiah 43:2) (1Peter 1:7) Isaiah 33:11-15)

Bottom line is I think, Christ didn't save us from anything, He saved us FOR something.

Last Sunday I've read a new take on that. I just put it here for concideration because it certainly has its merit.
Jesus didn't save us from something => LoF, Hell, correction, etc
Jesus did save us from a state => The state of being dead. -> Wages of sin is death
:2c:

The reason I say "Christ saved us for something" is,.. everything was planned from the beginning to bring us to a state of immortal being. This was the whole purpose of why we are here. So, if you look at this from this perspective Christ saved us for a future of immortality.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

When adults are cast in LoF it's assumed they learn rightousness.
So only good things are thought. Bad things are 'burned' out.
The refiners fire....

Babies have no mistakes to be burned out.
If they have to learn about good and evil then they first have to be thaught bad things and the unlearn them again...?
I've read an NDE that adressed infants.
The vision was that there was a big nursery. Angels where constantly teaching the kids in all kind of ways.

[Nathan]

For me, again . . .as we've all agreed to so far  . . . the LOF is a spiritual place and not a physical one yes?  Essentially, you could call it a spiritual washing station where all carnality is removed and only spirit remains . . .the carnality's source is my mind, my logic and natural reasoning.  That part of me that is at enmity with God and that I'm not supposed to lean on. 

In Christ our mind is renewed so there's no need for the LOF for those who's names are still in the book of life.  I just don't believe literal babies have their names removed until they are old enough to make the conscious decision dealing with God in the first place.  I don't believe the LOF is a learning ground, a training center where ungodly are taught or that it's a process much like what we experience here in this life.  There is no indication of that at all as far as I can tell, literally or metaphorically in Scripture. 

In fact, Hebrews says that the time will come when no man will have to be taught anything . . .everything will be revealed to everyone through the Holy Spirit by way of revelation from the Father as a result of having intimate relationship with the Son.

I do believe that we have hell experiences here on earth that are a combination of our own bad choices and God's leading.  It all depends on what type of hell we're experiencing there I guess.  But the church that Jesus has/is/continues to build has a foundational rock, a cornerstone that was addressed and identified with the Peter experience (who do "you" say that I am . . .)  The foundation of Jesus is not built from teaching or learning . . . but by way of "revealing" through relationship.  God reveals his son, as we mature in relationship with Jesus.  I didn't gain entrance into the kingdom through learning about Jesus . . .but I did gain it through revelation from God when I accepted the relationship with Christ.

That's the foundation.  So how can we then say that the LOF is where all who are without understanding of God go and gain understanding about God?  It's not to remove sin, it's to remove carnality.  Sin is a symptom of that.  And the carnality comes from misalignment between our soul and spirit.  So the LOF purges and purifies the carnality of the soul and as Scripture says, all things are made new . . .so after the fire of the lake, the truth is simply revealed . . .it was there all along, but the carnality of man buried it . . .for me, the resurrection is also dealing with the spirit of Man resurrecting from it's grave of the carnality within man.

[martincisneros]

Babies have no mistakes to be burned out.
If they have to learn about good and evil then they first have to be thaught bad things and the unlearn them again...?
I've read an NDE that adressed infants.
The vision was that there was a big nursery. Angels where constantly teaching the kids in all kind of ways.

Not just the angels, or perhaps that's semantical, but the Apostles and Jesus Himself.  It's really cool watching them run to Jesus and gang up on Him, and to watch Him teaching them virtually verbatim what He taught while on earth.  It's awesome to watch them growing in wisdom and stature, and in awareness and favor with God and man.  They're sooo excited by what the see of the Holy Spirit's work in the earth.  The way many religious people on this earth are constantly talking of heaven, in the exact same way their constant conversation is about this earth. 

Nothing is more important to heaven than this earth right now.  Their excitement abounds about this earth.  They genuinely wish they could be here.  But, soon enough.  Not much longer and everyone will be hugging everyone again.  Heaven literally has hundreds of millions of kids.  All enjoying mountains, rivers, trees, an impossible amount of food, gold, gems, houses, boats, airplanes, rollercoasters, bicycles, motorcycles, picnic tables, skiing, animals from here and animals we've never seen before, flowers that never stop blooming, nonstop music and Gospel preaching/teaching, a rainbow like you've never seen before, colors, sounds, scents, and touch sensations many on this earth have never seen/experienced before, angels with windows/screens through/under their wings so you can see the multiverse, endless but not oppressive music, fantastic architecture like you've seen before and like you've never seen, etc.  The whole place is an absolute inferno of love, joy, and anticipation.

[WhiteWings]

Sounds like you have been there Martin.
Could be because you are so far out  :reachout:

Question. I know Heaven is all about love. :Peck:
But are we allowed to tease former ETs like Matt Slick a little bit?  :mpardon:

[martincisneros]

Sounds like you have been there Martin.
Could be because you are so far out  :reachout:

I'm going to take the long way around answering this one, in order to give a goal and a treasure map rather to paint another bull's eye on myself.  As every revelation is more than the sum total of it's parts of the Word, and as I've referred to in the past that the fruit of the recreated human spirit properly nurtured on the Word will do absolutely anything/everything that the gifts of the Holy Spirit will do, there are other revelations of the Word that'll start growing in someone and when they reach the level of maturity that Jesus described, then they'll bare fruit that though I guess you could say is genetically just like the tree, branch, vine, or whatever, is still a little different from the tree, vine, or whatever because it is fruit with the potential to nourish and the potential to further spread the population of the genetic code of the tree/branch and in due season the same fruit elsewhere. 

There came a point where I first started having revelations of the Word regarding the Covenant and regarding the Authority of the believer.  Each new revelation for a while was each additional strand of DNA for the full tree.  There came a point in those two revelations where I was dealing with the full picture and was no longer knowing in part and then in part and then in part and then in part, but could look at the full thing.  Then there came a point where when I kept pursuing the same truth in the Scriptures through the Holy Spirit and kept pressing in again and again and again in the same truths by both the Written Word and my practice of it, then it began to bare fruit.  And then I was looking at the process of the maturity of the fruit, while still doing no violence to the actual tree or vine that bore it. 

And even with certain types of natural fruit, you're dealing with X-number of years before that's worth anything, such as a grape vine needing 7 years to produce what you're really wanting to take a look at for some really nice juice or a fine wine.  Long story short, I can trace it to having followed that process where the revelations, in particular, of the Covenant and of the Believer's Authority are now doing something in my life that's a little bit different than just what comes through perfected love, perseverance, self control, and hope [or that couples with it] and I'm now to the point that with the open windows that I maintain over my life, I'm able to see both worlds simultaneously at any moment of the day or night.  Hebrews 6 talks about our hope beaming out of our bosom and entering beyond the veil, like a laser or hologram, where Jesus has gone before us and has been made a High Priest to the age after the order of Melchezedec.  (Contextually, High Priest to the age of the realization of that hope/passion that beats in our breast from His promises via the Scriptures and Holy Spirit.  Though ultimately you could say He's High Priest until 1Corinthians 15:28, just as we are in Him.)

When that starts maturing in a believer's life, then not only is answered prayer a more consistent and growing reality, [rather than the occasional faith accident that many believers never quite learn how to keep duplicating,] but all of the veils that it specifically says that Jesus tore through, you're able to see through the tears in the exact same way as you're able to see the circumcision of your spirit that Colossians talks about.  So, to say that I live in both worlds at once as easily and as freely without pointing to the particular revelations of faith, authority, and covenant would only make a spectacle out of me rather than being a good kick in the tail for everybody else to get to where they can see as clearly.  I just listed the particular revelations, half dozen or so, that'll do it.  And when you've finally pierced that veil with your sowing and reaping, it's still a gradual unveiling and there's still the normal temptations occasionally though sometimes⁽¹⁾ equally as powerfully as there had always been.  But if you delight yourself in the Lord, He'll cause you to ride upon the high places of the earth. 

Doesn't mean I'm not as human as anyone else.  It's the Word that'll produce it all, from Genesis 1:1 to 1Corinthians 15:28 which will be the second big bang, or perhaps the third depending on how you take 2Peter 3.  Doesn't mean I don't still have to live with myself and get along with myself, etc.  The process never changes of carefully cultivating the Word in your life.  When it finally starts producing in your life, and those are the weeping and gnashing of teeth years, seemingly, 'cause you'll see one or two dozen people already reaping at advanced levels throughout the Body, and you're still looking at the same wimpy puny twig in your garden wondering if it'll ever amount to anything.  Or at this stage that's when a lot of people will get very peculiar and extrabiblical about their sovereignty doctrines.  Yeah, Jesus was mutilated beyond recognition as even being a human being for God to really be holding out anything from you.  Makes sense to me! :sigh:  His yoke is easy and His burden is light.  It's usually all of the stuff that people are either trying to add to it or to do in place of it that gets really hard, burdensome, grievous, etc.

There are things that'll speed the process along, such as total immersion where you just don't have time for anything else any more.  Obedience to what God shares is a biggy.  I'm definitely nothing the least bit special, nor the least bit exceptionally intelligent or anything like that.  I'm average or probably pretty far below average in every single way with the exception of the tenacity to have never turned loose of it, but to keep it growing in my life at any costs to myself, reputation, my time, etc.

Question. I know Heaven is all about love. :Peck:
But are we allowed to tease former ETs like Matt Slick a little bit?  :mpardon:

I don't want to seem to spoil the fun, but sibling rivalry doesn't exist there, is probably the best way that I can put it.  There is the total realization and gratitude every step along the way there that it was always His graciousness from start to finish.  You'll even hear converted angels that have looked in on God's grace and been made alive in the spirit as a result that'll continually say "The Great God YHVH is merciful!!!!!!!"  Praise fills the air there, like profanity fills it here.  And you can definitely tell the difference as a result.  Apples, pears, coconuts, and walnuts as big as basketballs, and constantly the sound of children singing.  Constantly.  Animals that don't shy away from people.  I personally have that here with the animals of this world, but there it's more expected and normal or whatever.  Every moment is precious and is appreciated, but without any fear that it'll be anyone's last or whatever.  If you want a movie that even nails what the New Earth will be like, get a copy of "Star Trek: Insurrection," if you haven't already, and it'll give you a glimpse of what there's no other way of putting it, than by saying the romance of it all.



⁽¹⁾I had no better word than to use the word "sometimes" 'cause rarely could convey the wrong idea 'cause of it's subjective imprecision, but neither did I wish to convey anything approximating all of the time, regularly, or anything like that.  Quick example on temptations that can have all of the intensity in the world, though can be fleeting 'cause of experience with having overcome them in the past (Hebrews 5:12-14; Romans 12:1-3): I've already mentioned the building elsewhere that I saw yesterday that God spoke to me about.  While I was there, I saw some young female doctors that couldn't have been a year and a half out of medical school.  A small group of them too, not just one or two.  Absolutely stunning and brains and for nothing more than a split second, but for the fullness of that split second I was totally ravenous.  Ravenous is even too tame of a word.  And I was totally stunned for half a minute afterwards at the intensity.  Sometimes a reaction like that, particularly to a spiritual man, isn't going to be fully their lust, but what someone else is eminating.  God had to show me that one half a dozen years ago, or I was never going to overcome the condemnation that would try to sneak in with that.  But this time, for that whole half second, that was honestly me that was trying to keep my eyes from going green, trying to keep the shirt from ripping off of my back, and trying to keep from roaring.  But it was over with just as soon as I felt a whole lot stronger of an emotion than what got many people in prison over acting on that.  I had already judged that a long time ago over the Bread and Cup and right when I needed it, the fire fell and consumed that profane thing that had tried to enter into God's Temple.  In the Name of Jesus, I'll only have eyes for one woman when God finally brings her my way.

[CHB]

Martin,

Will these children/babies always be children and never grow up into adults? Will they never quite understand who Jesus was nor what he came to do for them? Will they never read the Bible nor know about pain, suffering, etc?

CHB

[Doc]

Sounds like you have been there Martin.
Could be because you are so far out  :reachout:

I'm going to take the long way around answering this one, in order to give a goal and a treasure map rather to paint another bull's eye on myself.  As every revelation is more than the sum total of it's parts of the Word, and as I've referred to in the past that the fruit of the recreated human spirit properly nurtured on the Word will do absolutely anything/everything that the gifts of the Holy Spirit will do, there are other revelations of the Word that'll start growing in someone and when they reach the level of maturity that Jesus described, then they'll bare fruit that though I guess you could say is genetically just like the tree, branch, vine, or whatever, is still a little different from the tree, vine, or whatever because it is fruit with the potential to nourish and the potential to further spread the population of the genetic code of the tree/branch and in due season the same fruit elsewhere. 

There came a point where I first started having revelations of the Word regarding the Covenant and regarding the Authority of the believer.  Each new revelation for a while was each additional strand of DNA for the full tree.  There came a point in those two revelations where I was dealing with the full picture and was no longer knowing in part and then in part and then in part and then in part, but could look at the full thing.  Then there came a point where when I kept pursuing the same truth in the Scriptures through the Holy Spirit and kept pressing in again and again and again in the same truths by both the Written Word and my practice of it, then it began to bare fruit.  And then I was looking at the process of the maturity of the fruit, while still doing no violence to the actual tree or vine that bore it. 

And even with certain types of natural fruit, you're dealing with X-number of years before that's worth anything, such as a grape vine needing 7 years to produce what you're really wanting to take a look at for some really nice juice or a fine wine.  Long story short, I can trace it to having followed that process where the revelations, in particular, of the Covenant and of the Believer's Authority are now doing something in my life that's a little bit different than just what comes through perfected love, perseverance, self control, and hope [or that couples with it] and I'm now to the point that with the open windows that I maintain over my life, I'm able to see both worlds simultaneously at any moment of the day or night.  Hebrews 6 talks about our hope beaming out of our bosom and entering beyond the veil, like a laser or hologram, where Jesus has gone before us and has been made a High Priest to the age after the order of Melchezedec.  (Contextually, High Priest to the age of the realization of that hope/passion that beats in our breast from His promises via the Scriptures and Holy Spirit.  Though ultimately you could say He's High Priest until 1Corinthians 15:28, just as we are in Him.)

When that starts maturing in a believer's life, then not only is answered prayer a more consistent and growing reality, [rather than the occasional faith accident that many believers never quite learn how to keep duplicating,] but all of the veils that it specifically says that Jesus tore through, you're able to see through the tears in the exact same way as you're able to see the circumcision of your spirit that Colossians talks about.  So, to say that I live in both worlds at once as easily and as freely without pointing to the particular revelations of faith, authority, and covenant would only make a spectacle out of me rather than being a good kick in the tail for everybody else to get to where they can see as clearly.  I just listed the particular revelations, half dozen or so, that'll do it.  And when you've finally pierced that veil with your sowing and reaping, it's still a gradual unveiling and there's still the normal temptations occasionally though sometimes⁽¹⁾ equally as powerfully as there had always been.  But if you delight yourself in the Lord, He'll cause you to ride upon the high places of the earth. 

Doesn't mean I'm not as human as anyone else.  It's the Word that'll produce it all, from Genesis 1:1 to 1Corinthians 15:28 which will be the second big bang, or perhaps the third depending on how you take 2Peter 3.  Doesn't mean I don't still have to live with myself and get along with myself, etc.  The process never changes of carefully cultivating the Word in your life.  When it finally starts producing in your life, and those are the weeping and gnashing of teeth years, seemingly, 'cause you'll see one or two dozen people already reaping at advanced levels throughout the Body, and you're still looking at the same wimpy puny twig in your garden wondering if it'll ever amount to anything.  Or at this stage that's when a lot of people will get very peculiar and extrabiblical about their sovereignty doctrines.  Yeah, Jesus was mutilated beyond recognition as even being a human being for God to really be holding out anything from you.  Makes sense to me! :sigh:  His yoke is easy and His burden is light.  It's usually all of the stuff that people are either trying to add to it or to do in place of it that gets really hard, burdensome, grievous, etc.

There are things that'll speed the process along, such as total immersion where you just don't have time for anything else any more.  Obedience to what God shares is a biggy.  I'm definitely nothing the least bit special, nor the least bit exceptionally intelligent or anything like that.  I'm average or probably pretty far below average in every single way with the exception of the tenacity to have never turned loose of it, but to keep it growing in my life at any costs to myself, reputation, my time, etc.

Question. I know Heaven is all about love. :Peck:
But are we allowed to tease former ETs like Matt Slick a little bit?  :mpardon:

I don't want to seem to spoil the fun, but sibling rivalry doesn't exist there, is probably the best way that I can put it.  There is the total realization and gratitude every step along the way there that it was always His graciousness from start to finish.  You'll even hear converted angels that have looked in on God's grace and been made alive in the spirit as a result that'll continually say "The Great God YHVH is merciful!!!!!!!"  Praise fills the air there, like profanity fills it here.  And you can definitely tell the difference as a result.  Apples, pears, coconuts, and walnuts as big as basketballs, and constantly the sound of children singing.  Constantly.  Animals that don't shy away from people.  I personally have that here with the animals of this world, but there it's more expected and normal or whatever.  Every moment is precious and is appreciated, but without any fear that it'll be anyone's last or whatever.  If you want a movie that even nails what the New Earth will be like, get a copy of "Star Trek: Insurrection," if you haven't already, and it'll give you a glimpse of what there's no other way of putting it, than by saying the romance of it all.



⁽¹⁾I had no better word than to use the word "sometimes" 'cause rarely could convey the wrong idea 'cause of it's subjective imprecision, but neither did I wish to convey anything approximating all of the time, regularly, or anything like that.  Quick example on temptations that can have all of the intensity in the world, though can be fleeting 'cause of experience with having overcome them in the past (Hebrews 5:12-14; Romans 12:1-3): I've already mentioned the building elsewhere that I saw yesterday that God spoke to me about.  While I was there, I saw some young female doctors that couldn't have been a year and a half out of medical school.  A small group of them too, not just one or two.  Absolutely stunning and brains and for nothing more than a split second, but for the fullness of that split second I was totally ravenous.  Ravenous is even too tame of a word.  And I was totally stunned for half a minute afterwards at the intensity.  Sometimes a reaction like that, particularly to a spiritual man, isn't going to be fully their lust, but what someone else is eminating.  God had to show me that one half a dozen years ago, or I was never going to overcome the condemnation that would try to sneak in with that.  But this time, for that whole half second, that was honestly me that was trying to keep my eyes from going green, trying to keep the shirt from ripping off of my back, and trying to keep from roaring.  But it was over with just as soon as I felt a whole lot stronger of an emotion than what got many people in prison over acting on that.  I had already judged that a long time ago over the Bread and Cup and right when I needed it, the fire fell and consumed that profane thing that had tried to enter into God's Temple.  In the Name of Jesus, I'll only have eyes for one woman when God finally brings her my way.

:sigh:

My natural inclination would have been to get frustrated with you for being so 'cryptic' (again), except that I realized that it's just because it seems that I have so far to go. If I understood half of what you were saying there, I'd feel like I was actually getting somewhere with life. I was going to say "spiritual life", but I mean Life in the sense of zoen aionion.

So as it turns out, I'm not frustrated with you at all, I'm frustrated with me.

[Cardinal]

While I was there, I saw some young female doctors that couldn't have been a year and a half out of medical school.  A small group of them too, not just one or two.  Absolutely stunning and brains and for nothing more than a split second, but for the fullness of that split second I was totally ravenous.  Ravenous is even too tame of a word.  And I was totally stunned for half a minute afterwards at the intensity.  Sometimes a reaction like that, particularly to a spiritual man, isn't going to be fully their lust, but what someone else is emanating. 

:cloud9: Martin, to me this sounds like desire being raised up in you, and before you say, "DUH" to me for what appears to be my amazing grasp of the obvious (:laughing7:), desire is the 4th part of the soul He showed me; and this, contrary to the name of it, does not have to do with only sexual desire, but I would it describe as like the life force controlling the soul, for a clear lack of words on my part.

I had this raised up in me in a split second, to my shock, during that 32 day carrot/water fast He had me on. I was NOT hungry at all by this point (it was around day 28), and it was exactly as you describe, a SUDDEN RAVENOUS "appetite". I want to make this plain as I can, it was NOT HUNGER PAINS, it was the strength of something of the soul, the "latent" or hidden power of soul, I would say. And it was HUNGRY for anything that was NOT part of God's perfect will for me at that moment.

I feel sure this was one thing that was raised up and overcome by Jesus in the wilderness. And Reformer, I hope you're reading this, because I also thought of your post (I had to leave town and didn't have time to reply to it) about how He allowed you to see yourself once thru the Spirit. I think we ALL look like this until this thing is overcome.
I think this ties in also with something He gave me while praying for someone one time.

He told me to lay my hand on her jaw and command it to be "broken". I was REAL nervous about this one, but I heard it several times and I finally apologized to her for how bizarre this sounded, but that was He said, and then I did it.

Immediately, He gave me the understanding that He was having to me to break the jaw of her "carnal ass nature", and He had me to decree that she would only eat things that had the life of the Spirit in them from that point on, ie. no more eating of the carnal mind's doctrines. He tied this in with how Sampson killed more Phillistines (stands for self) with the FRESH (as in freshly killed) jawbone of an ass. Blessings...

[sparrow]

 :sigh:

[martincisneros]

Will these children/babies always be children and never grow up into adults?

They're growing.  They're growing seemingly with the same sense of time as here, though time for them isn't wearying.  If there were no time there, then there could be no music, movement of self or of rivers, grass, and flowers, etc.  When people try to say that there's no time there, that's just a religious mind gone nuts and not knowing what it's talking about, or parroting what it's always heard from others.  Or perhaps not knowing what to call it if they were gone less than a minute from the earth, in their own minds, only to find out that they were gone for hours in earth time and had already had some major surgery or had been declared dead, etc.  As far as our experience of time there, think in terms of episodes of Smallville as far as Clark Kent's experience with time when he's able to move at his level, where he can see a bullet traveling, can follow it with his eyes, and seemingly has all of the time in the world to react, intercept it, etc. The Superman Returns movie had a similar scene with Superman intercepting a bullet meant for a security guard if I remember correctly. 

Many Christians have had those moments with God, or other types of moments, whether near death experiences that didn't quite end in their expulsion from their bodies, etc., but where a second seemed to last forever.  When you're participating fully in love, it is possible to have individual seconds that have all of the meaning of all of eternity in them.  Meditation in the Scriptures can even go there, when you're totally full of the Word and some situation causes absolutely every single promise that covers a situation to just leap to attention in you and you're aware of all of it at once.  There can be moments of telling someone you love with all of your heart that you love them and time will somehow get transcended for you and your saying that can seem to take all of eternity, even if in so-called real time it took you three to five seconds to say that.  Just a moment of saying that when you're to that level can be more rejuvenating than a week or two vacation. 

St. Paul mentions redeeming time in this way but doesn't go into a lot of elaboration in a way that's easily traced with a Concordance.  There are some subjects in the Scriptures, such as this one of redeeming time, that a Concordance is virtually going to be useless 'cause it'll be a matter of a lot of interrelated principles and an overall sense of what to do as a disciple, an imitator of God, etc.  Perhaps a Concordance would be useful for some people that have already familiarized themselves enough with the Bible and who have a more discriminating mind than I do for being able to find it that way.  But after a while, it's going to be a matter of this aspect of the blessing, or this principle of love, and this principle of keeping the Word, etc., etc., etc.

Will they never quite understand who Jesus was nor what he came to do for them?

They can hear all He's telling them about it, and can experience it as He speaks.  No one quotes Scripture quite like Him.  A genuine understanding of Him isn't coming out of the carnal mind being supplemented with the Word.  The Word has to replace all of that and they're beginning many times with a clean slate.  I believe that when the Scriptures say that Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness in a moment of time, that that's literally all it was from various odd moments that I've had over the last few years, although Hebrews 5 describes His regular prayer life as including strong tears for His own deliverance and that of the people.  And once made perfect, He became the author of temporal deliverance for all that obey Him, both in what He'd say to them as well as in His example or how the Scriptures teach us to partake of our part of His sufferings, which is our deliverance from everything we're redeemed from by His sufferings. 

He bore our sin, so we're obligated to resist it.  That's our part of His suffering.  Spiritual resistance.  He bore our sickness, according to Matthew 8:17 and 1Peter 2:24, therefore we're obligated to resist it.  He bore our poverty according to 2Corinthians 8, therefore the Scriptures teach that there's grace for resisting it and for giving and receiving.  et. al.  Nothing else is acknowledged as our suffering, or plowing together with Him in the Scriptures or in the courts of heaven so that we're reigning together with Him.  You know you're partaking in the fellowship of His sufferings when you're reigning together with Him.  Count it all joy when you fall into diverse temptations, testings, trials, and persecutions knowing that the resistance you're putting against the temptations, testings, trials, and persecutions with simply obeying Colossians 2:6-7 will make you perfect and entire wanting nothing.

Will they never read the Bible nor know about pain, suffering, etc?

They have the Word made flesh, as well as Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles, copies of the Scriptures, and The Original of the Scriptures that's right where the Blood of Jesus is at.  And there's not this museum attitude about it of "don't you dare touch!!"  It's not like that at all.

My natural inclination would have been to get frustrated with you for being so 'cryptic' (again), except that I realized that it's just because it seems that I have so far to go. If I understood half of what you were saying there, I'd feel like I was actually getting somewhere with life. I was going to say "spiritual life", but I mean Life in the sense of zoen aionion.

Proverbs 2:20 through chapter 5 verse 2 is a Scriptural address along the same lines of what I just said, with special emphasis upon chapter 4:20 through chapter 5 verse 2.  Psalms 112 or 119 would be the version of what I said from the Psalms.  The gardening illustrations of Jesus simply give us a pictoral or visualization of what's going on as we're practicing Proverbs 4:20-27 and Colossians 3:12-17, and how to expect gradual spiritual growth.  Also gives us a clue to what's going on in someone's life that's living by the Word but not necessarily in the miraculous powers of the Holy Spirit, but they're still consistently healed, having more than enough, protected from everything, etc. 

The Holy Spirit's ministry is mainly about being equipped to minister to others and to be able to articulate to someone else what's going on in your spiritual life.  The Holy Spirit wasn't really promised to us, for us.  We're told from cover to cover in that Bible to walk by the Written Word, whether in Moses, Joshua, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Prophets, the Gospels, St. Paul's writings, St. Peter's writings, and St. John's writings so that when some folks around here want to be very dismissive of Scripture, I have a genuine right to question whether they're Christians at all 'cause the Bible is clear about that being "God's spirituality 101" and "Relationship with God 101."  I've been tempted to compile all of the individual verses and whole passages that use the language of Joshua 1:8 and John 15:7, but have thought that I'd genuinely be busy for a while. 

I've got a Bible where the subject of faith is meticulously highlighted throughout the Bible, but not necessarily with only focusing on the verses that speak of the Scriptures as our righteousness, faith, hope, love, success, teaching, prophecy, psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, answered prayer, wisdom, sanctification, redemption, etc.  To me, it's something so basic that I really have to just look at folks sometimes and just think to myself that they really don't care about what He cares about at all.  They're trying to fashion Jesus in their own image.  When it says He's the Word made flesh, that's precisely what it means.  At any given moment of the day you already know what He's going to say if you know the Book.  And I am pressing with everything that I've got to be nothing but the same as well. 

There have been sooo many examples of people being belligerent with these truths that weren't really practicing them, or that were sorta in that disgusting in between place from where they started out and where they were trying to get to, to where they were an awkward looking tree weathering a storm and looking like they were taking about as much punishment as anyone else in certain areas.  I don't believe that being a walking Bible would necessitate being the very thing that some folks around here have been lashing out at.  This forum is a call to what the Scriptures have to say about these things.  A lot of people seem to misinterpret that with what everyday life is going to look like living by these principles. 

The Word was the yoke that Jesus said was easy and the burden that He said was light because that's what He was constantly pointing people to and upbraiding them for their unbelief for not believing all things that the Scriptures were telling them about this or that and usually about Him but not exclusively.  In other words, the real Jesus will chew you out if He knows you to have had every opportunity to understand and believe what the Scriptures say, but you continued in your own thinking about things instead of the taking the Isaiah 55 mandate of receiving His thoughts and His ways as the dew of heaven and the harvesting of the fields of your life and of the world.  This may shock quite a few folks, but rather than trying to argue with me emotionally, I hope they'd reread the 4 Gospels and Acts really really carefully and honestly: 

Jesus has absolutely nothing to offer anyone but the Word.  But if you'll let Him impregnate you with the Word in every area of Kingdom thinking about all things that pertain to life and godliness, money and sanctification, generocity, the hundredfold, and beyond, then His Will will be done in your life, in this life, as it is in heaven, as you stay out of offense and keep every care cast upon Him in the assurance that if the Book kept Him invincible all of the days of His ministry and even guided the specifics of when He seemed to be His weakest, yet St. Paul says He was His strongest so that none of His bones were broken, His death was by crucifixion to fulfill the Scriptures, etc., etc., etc.  Then the Scriptures will begin to order all of our lives and we'll be the Psalm 1 trees by the water that's bringing forth fruit in their own season, if they'll just avoid sitting in the seat of the scornful. 

Half the UR folks that I know, and literally half that I know from my entire life, whether online or elsewhere offline, have been really really bad about sitting in the seat of the scornful.  They'll think that they don't, but the Scriptures don't qualify that, that as long as you're only scornful of the spiritual things you don't like then it's okay.  No, it says there, in Isaiah 58, 2Timothy 2, and in countless, countless other places to refuse to go there, to withdraw yourself, etc.  It's the Word that redeems our time, and although everything that we do for others doesn't have to have a Scripture emblazened in it, we can still bathe everything in the Spirit of the Word and make sure that everything has His excellence, has His abilities when we release it into the lives of others, etc. 

Imagine writing something and dozens of people get healed in their bodies, or giving someone something for Christmas at the Holy Spirit's prompting that that was just the very thing, and then when you blessed it and sowed it into their lives, suddenly they weren't diabetics any more.  Life and death decisions for countless people are made every single moment of every single day by Christians and their attitudes about the Word and it's place in their lives.  We're surrounded by a countless cloud of witnesses in the heavens that are cheering us on, to make the difference that they never even did, to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, and to resist rather than assist the devil.  Anyway, I'm absolutely nobody and absolutely nobody loves all of you. :HeartThrob:

[sparrow]

We're surrounded by a countless cloud of witnesses in the heavens that are cheering us on, to make the difference that they never even did,

I do agree with you on that.

Not sure if we are thinking of this in the same way or not...
but I do, in my heart, see those who have passed on from this earth, like you said.."cheering us on".
:HeartThrob:

[martincisneros]

:cloud9: Martin, to me this sounds like desire being raised up in you, and before you say, "DUH" to me for what appears to be my amazing grasp of the obvious (:laughing7:), desire is the 4th part of the soul He showed me; and this, contrary to the name of it, does not have to do with only sexual desire, but I would it describe as like the life force controlling the soul, for a clear lack of words on my part.

I had this raised up in me in a split second, to my shock, during that 32 day carrot/water fast He had me on. I was NOT hungry at all by this point (it was around day 28), and it was exactly as you describe, a SUDDEN RAVENOUS "appetite". I want to make this plain as I can, it was NOT HUNGER PAINS, it was the strength of something of the soul, the "latent" or hidden power of soul, I would say. And it was HUNGRY for anything that was NOT part of God's perfect will for me at that moment.

I feel sure this was one thing that was raised up and overcome by Jesus in the wilderness.

Yeah, it's the final temptation before all things genuinely experientially become yours.  'Cause if the Holy Spirit won't let it go beyond that "moment of time," then there's nothing more that needs to be proven to you, your harvest, the devil, the throne of grace, etc., about your character, nature, calling, and election and your senses are exercised to discern the difference between good and evil.  There was zero question that that was the furthest thing from my will, my desires, etc.  I just got broadsided.  Am I capable of being tempted further?  There's always the temptation to set aside the Scriptures and to do anything some other way.  However, it is possible to shield your life from attempting to be wise in your own eyes.  The devil will even try to use the Scriptures to try to prove to you that the Scriptures teach for you to set aside the Scriptures.  That's when you've really fallen from grace if you ever fell for that, and the temptation to do that ever escalated to that point that if it was some pet interpretation of one or two verses to try to validate a Wordless life with the smoke and mirrors of supposedly only pursuing the living Word.  The Spirit -- the true Spirit -- doesn't disagree with the Word, according to 1John and countless other passages.

He gave me the understanding that He was having to me to break the jaw of her "carnal ass nature", and He had me to decree that she would only eat things that had the life of the Spirit in them from that point on, ie. no more eating of the carnal mind's doctrines. He tied this in with how Sampson killed more Phillistines (stands for self) with the FRESH (as in freshly killed) jawbone of an ass. Blessings...

All judgment, world governance, and Church governance has been committed to the Church, particularly to the ministry offices that Jesus appoints.  St. Paul told a Church one time, writing from a dungeon, that when you are gathered together and my spirit is gathered together with you through the power of God, you are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that their spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord.  On another occaision he spoke the Word and blinded someone with the same grace that lead to his own conversion.  The twin extremes to be avoided is a salivating attitude of having that anointing that deals with Ananias and Saphira types and the opposite extreme that tries to carnally think that God would never do that in our day.  God does fire some folks and send others on medical leave, particularly those that don't rightly discern the Bread and Cup.  That's where our prayers for each other for the Day of the Lord to be delayed, as the early Church would regularly pray, is sooo important, so that we'd come to that point through the teaching and disciplining of the Word of being able to present every single man and woman (and yes, married ones too) perfect in Christ with the energy that He so superhumanly works in us to this end, according to Colossians 1's closing verse.  And as I've been contending, it is the Word that Scripturally does the perfecting for every good work.

[reFORMer]

The anointing is on the Word, which is the Seed body of the Spirit.

Another picture:  the fire consumes the oil in the 66 piece lampstand.  The Written Word is the lampstand; but, it's written in our hearts, so the lampstand represents The Eclessia.  The oil is supplied by beating the harvested olives and straining out solids, ourselves Priests co-laboring with God; but, it has to continually be refreshed with new oil.  This seems the oil of our spirit, while The fire is Spirit in another aspect, God as Spirit.

Help me to understand better.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thank you for the confirmation of your post, Martin. Sometimes with the things of God you think, 'Am I losing my mind here or what?" ........Then He steps in and tells you, yes you are, but that's a good thing.  :mshock: :laughing7:

Oh, ok Lord...........had me worried there for a second.  :mblush:  :laughing7: I've had several conversations with Him like this over the years.  :winkgrin: Blessings....

[Cardinal]

The anointing is on the Word, which is the Seed body of the Spirit.

Another picture:  the fire consumes the oil in the 66 piece lampstand.  The Written Word is the lampstand; but, it's written in our hearts, so the lampstand represents The Eclessia.  The oil is supplied by beating the harvested olives and straining out solids, ourselves Priests co-laboring with God; but, it has to continually be refreshed with new oil.  This seems the oil of our spirit, while The fire is Spirit in another aspect, God as Spirit.

Help me to understand better.

:cloud9: I like that reformer.....never noticed that about the lampstand having 66 pieces before.  :thumbsup:

You know, everyone's first thought of fire is that it burns and destroys, but it also brings light to walk by in the darkness. Without the fire, the priests wouldn't have been able to even see the lampstand in the pitch black room, or see the shewbread (Word) to eat it. Like a blind man, they'd have to feel their way thru the darkness.

Oil is soothing and makes the face/nature to shine (glory). Moses got a good "oiling", LOL.....and so we were told to wash our face (nature being washed with the Word) and anoint our head with oil when we fast, symbolic of what God is doing with us in the Spirit when we do. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

About the lampstand did you know the arms each have 2 'names' that represent the creation and salvation story?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: No, WW, I don't know about that, either. Do "enLIGHTen me, please.   :thumbsup:  What are the names? Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

As any atheist knows...  :LH:

Creation. From right to left (Hebrew)

1] berecrap - In the begining
2] barah - created
3] Elohim - God
4] *
5] hashamaym - the heavens
6] va'echt - and
7] ha'aretz - the earth

So it just is Genesis 1:1
* center is a bit special.
eht - alef/tav (=alpha/omega
In Hebrew words are made up of letter. More like symbols.
Those symbols have a name like our letters but also a meaning.
Plus they represent a thing.
So symbol = name + thing + meaning
Alef = Ox + Strength/leader/first
Tav = Sign (looks 100% like a cross being carried + Convenant/seal

All 6 lamps have a second name.
The name of feast. = summary of our salvation = summary of marriage rite (christ, bride etc)
Right to left this time
1] Passover
2] Unleavened bread
3] First fruits
4] Servant
5] Trumpets
6] Atonement
7] Tabernacles

4....
So the middle is servant and ruler.
Also called servant lamp because it light the other 6
Light of the world?

I'm getting more and more convinced that understanding Hebrew (customs) is a huge advantage in Bible study.
Funny fact. The very first letter in the Hebrew Torah (Gen 1:1) Has the meaning of household/family.
Think about that....

[Cardinal]

As any atheist knows...  :LH:

:cloud9: WW, you're hilarious. And I've got to say for a self-proclaimed atheist, you're doing a banner job of studying. Good work.  :thumbsup: I'll be reading this over and over and checking this out more.

I'm getting more and more convinced that understanding Hebrew (customs) is a huge advantage in Bible study.
Funny fact. The very first letter in the Hebrew Torah (Gen 1:1) Has the meaning of household/family.
Think about that....

I've been saying this for 23 years now, with few agreeing with me. Who knew God was going to bring an atheist to agree with me?! Is God cool, or what?  :winkgrin: Blessings to you, my BROTHER.

[Doc]

My natural inclination would have been to get frustrated with you for being so 'cryptic' (again), except that I realized that it's just because it seems that I have so far to go. If I understood half of what you were saying there, I'd feel like I was actually getting somewhere with life. I was going to say "spiritual life", but I mean Life in the sense of zoen aionion.

Proverbs 2:20 through chapter 5 verse 2 is a Scriptural address along the same lines of what I just said, with special emphasis upon chapter 4:20 through chapter 5 verse 2.  Psalms 112 or 119 would be the version of what I said from the Psalms.  The gardening illustrations of Jesus simply give us a pictoral or visualization of what's going on as we're practicing Proverbs 4:20-27 and Colossians 3:12-17, and how to expect gradual spiritual growth.  Also gives us a clue to what's going on in someone's life that's living by the Word but not necessarily in the miraculous powers of the Holy Spirit, but they're still consistently healed, having more than enough, protected from everything, etc. 

The Holy Spirit's ministry is mainly about being equipped to minister to others and to be able to articulate to someone else what's going on in your spiritual life.  The Holy Spirit wasn't really promised to us, for us.  We're told from cover to cover in that Bible to walk by the Written Word, whether in Moses, Joshua, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Prophets, the Gospels, St. Paul's writings, St. Peter's writings, and St. John's writings so that when some folks around here want to be very dismissive of Scripture, I have a genuine right to question whether they're Christians at all 'cause the Bible is clear about that being "God's spirituality 101" and "Relationship with God 101."  I've been tempted to compile all of the individual verses and whole passages that use the language of Joshua 1:8 and John 15:7, but have thought that I'd genuinely be busy for a while. 

I've got a Bible where the subject of faith is meticulously highlighted throughout the Bible, but not necessarily with only focusing on the verses that speak of the Scriptures as our righteousness, faith, hope, love, success, teaching, prophecy, psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, answered prayer, wisdom, sanctification, redemption, etc.  To me, it's something so basic that I really have to just look at folks sometimes and just think to myself that they really don't care about what He cares about at all.  They're trying to fashion Jesus in their own image.  When it says He's the Word made flesh, that's precisely what it means.  At any given moment of the day you already know what He's going to say if you know the Book.  And I am pressing with everything that I've got to be nothing but the same as well. 

There have been sooo many examples of people being belligerent with these truths that weren't really practicing them, or that were sorta in that disgusting in between place from where they started out and where they were trying to get to, to where they were an awkward looking tree weathering a storm and looking like they were taking about as much punishment as anyone else in certain areas.  I don't believe that being a walking Bible would necessitate being the very thing that some folks around here have been lashing out at.  This forum is a call to what the Scriptures have to say about these things.  A lot of people seem to misinterpret that with what everyday life is going to look like living by these principles. 

The Word was the yoke that Jesus said was easy and the burden that He said was light because that's what He was constantly pointing people to and upbraiding them for their unbelief for not believing all things that the Scriptures were telling them about this or that and usually about Him but not exclusively.  In other words, the real Jesus will chew you out if He knows you to have had every opportunity to understand and believe what the Scriptures say, but you continued in your own thinking about things instead of the taking the Isaiah 55 mandate of receiving His thoughts and His ways as the dew of heaven and the harvesting of the fields of your life and of the world.  This may shock quite a few folks, but rather than trying to argue with me emotionally, I hope they'd reread the 4 Gospels and Acts really really carefully and honestly: 

Jesus has absolutely nothing to offer anyone but the Word.  But if you'll let Him impregnate you with the Word in every area of Kingdom thinking about all things that pertain to life and godliness, money and sanctification, generocity, the hundredfold, and beyond, then His Will will be done in your life, in this life, as it is in heaven, as you stay out of offense and keep every care cast upon Him in the assurance that if the Book kept Him invincible all of the days of His ministry and even guided the specifics of when He seemed to be His weakest, yet St. Paul says He was His strongest so that none of His bones were broken, His death was by crucifixion to fulfill the Scriptures, etc., etc., etc.  Then the Scriptures will begin to order all of our lives and we'll be the Psalm 1 trees by the water that's bringing forth fruit in their own season, if they'll just avoid sitting in the seat of the scornful. 

Half the UR folks that I know, and literally half that I know from my entire life, whether online or elsewhere offline, have been really really bad about sitting in the seat of the scornful.  They'll think that they don't, but the Scriptures don't qualify that, that as long as you're only scornful of the spiritual things you don't like then it's okay.  No, it says there, in Isaiah 58, 2Timothy 2, and in countless, countless other places to refuse to go there, to withdraw yourself, etc.  It's the Word that redeems our time, and although everything that we do for others doesn't have to have a Scripture emblazened in it, we can still bathe everything in the Spirit of the Word and make sure that everything has His excellence, has His abilities when we release it into the lives of others, etc. 

Imagine writing something and dozens of people get healed in their bodies, or giving someone something for Christmas at the Holy Spirit's prompting that that was just the very thing, and then when you blessed it and sowed it into their lives, suddenly they weren't diabetics any more.  Life and death decisions for countless people are made every single moment of every single day by Christians and their attitudes about the Word and it's place in their lives.  We're surrounded by a countless cloud of witnesses in the heavens that are cheering us on, to make the difference that they never even did, to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, and to resist rather than assist the devil.  Anyway, I'm absolutely nobody and absolutely nobody loves all of you. :HeartThrob:

Thanks for that, Martin. I wasn't trying to say that you were being extra-biblical, just that I lacked understanding. Most of those scriptures you pointed out had to do with what we might refer to as "spiritual disciplines", and I think to a large extent, those have been missing from my daily walk. So, perhaps that's the next step in further growth for me; implementing those things.

[WhiteWings]

Looks like this forum is filtering on naughty words.

My previous post:
1] berecrap - In the begining

Should be

1] beresh!t - In the begining


Forgot one "lamp name"
Dunno what it's called in English.
The part that touches the table it is standing on. Foot of the lamp?
Better would be 'the part that rests on the table' because that part is called Sabbat

[sven]

Looks like this forum is filtering on naughty words.

My previous post:
1] berecrap - In the begining

Should be

1] beresh!t - In the begining

I know it's off topic, but this happens also when you want to write Pe(s)hitta, the Aramaic New Testament