L Ray Smith and Death

[SQ]

AN ENCOURAGING THOUGHT ABOUT DEATH

Death has two different meanings that are essential for us to differentiate:

The ACT OF DYING or termination of life.

The STATE OF BEING DEAD.

All humanity will experience "the act of dying," but absolutely no one will ever experience the "state of being dead." And this is because:

"For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything..." (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

This may be comforting to some, but scary to others. It all depends on your point of view; your perspective; your emotional stability; your up-bringing; your understanding. What I want to do in this little article is give you an encouraging perspective of death. "How can anything be encouraging when it comes to death?" you are probably asking. Well, let me try and answer that for you.

Virtually every time that I have read that verse (dozens of times), it was to prove to someone that we do not have an immortal soul that lives on after death of the body, nor do we have consciousness as is taught in Christendom. But this past year I took another look at this verse and saw something else that I had never contemplated before.

Not only is there no consciousness in death, but there is no consciousness OF death either. This is the encouraging part.

"The living KNOW that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING."

Let's think about that for a few moments and see if this is not quite encouraging.

"The living KNOW... the dead know NOTHING." The dead don't know that they are dead. When you die, you will NOT KNOW THAT YOU ARE DEAD! But it gets better. Not only will you never know that you are dead at some point in the future, but from your perspective YOU NEVER EVEN LOST CONSCIOUSNESS. This to me was a marvelous revelation.

Once God creates consciousness in a human they will NEVER EVER know anything BUT CONSCIOUSNESS. From my perspective and from your perspective we will never "know" ANYTHING but life and feelings and emotions and consciousness. From our perspective we will never "know" what it is like to be dead. Oh we will probably die some day (assuming that the Lord doesn't come first), but we will never know that we were dead; we will never know what it is to BE dead, or to BE unconscious. Others will know and sorrow (maybe?) that we are dead and gone, but from OUR perspective we will never lose conscious reality, and we will never "experience" being dead.

Now I didn't say we would not experience "dying." Most (albeit not all) people who die, experience dying, but they do NOT experience death itself, nor will they ever. It is impossible for someone to experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. I will carry this one step further. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead.

This to me is an amazing thing. Once God created consciousness, cognizance, awareness, perception, sensation, emotions, and the like; we never ever loose it from OUR PERSPECTIVE, and after all, whose perspective counts the most when it comes to death—ours or someone else's?

We may all go through the fear of dying or even the pain of dying, but there is no pain and no fear IN DEATH ITSELF. No one who is presently dead is aware of it, or experiencing it, or being frightened by it, or anything else.

DEATH IS SLEEP

I was tempted to make that caption: DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP, but that would be Scripturally inaccurate, as nowhere do the Scriptures state that death is "like" sleep, but rather that death IS SLEEP. God prepared Moses for death with the following:

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep [Heb: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers..." (Deut. 31:16).

David said:

"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).

When Lazarus was dead (John 11:14), Jesus said:

"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11).

Do you fear when your children "sleep" at night? You know that they are safe in sleep. Even in sleep we have a slight awareness of life, especially when we are dreaming or falling in and out of sleep, but in death there is no consciousness nor sub-consciousness, and so you will never know that you are sleeping. You know that your children will awake in the morning. We all who died IN CHRIST, shall awake in the morning of resurrection. And when we do, we might remember dying, but we will not remember ever being dead.

On five different occasions I came very near to death. Three of the five times I was unconscious. For all practicality, I was dead. I remember what happened before and after being unconscious, but I remember nothing of BEING unconscious. Yet I knew that I was, but only after the fact by the evidence, not from my actual experience of having been under. The actual fact of death is no different from what I already experienced several times. And you have all experienced it already as well. We all sleep, and unless we have bad dreams, the experience of sleep itself is nothing fearful or painful.

Sleep is a way that God can set people aside for a little while as He works with our children and our children's children. Centuries and millennia will pass for some, yet they will know no death, only consciousness. From our perspective we will never know anything but life and consciousness. Death won't even be an illusion: it won't be AT ALL. And that is because "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."

The Apostle Paul was familiar with this verse, seeing that he earnestly studied the Hebrew Scriptures. With relation to this concept that "...the dead know not anything," Paul made the following statements:

"For we know, That if the tent of our earthy dwelling be taken down, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, aionian, in the heavens. For indeed to this we are groaning, earnestly desiring to be invested with that habitation of our which is from [not 'in'] heaven: surely, having been invested, we shall not be found destitute.

For, indeed, those being in the tent are groaning, being oppressed; in which we desire not to be divested [naked], but invested [clothed], that the mortal may be absorbed by LIFE. Now He Who has produced this for this same thing is that God Who has given to us the pledge of the Spirit.

Therefore, being always confident, and knowing that being at home in the body [our body, in the flesh] we are from home [our real home, our immortal home], away from the Lord; for we are walking by Faith, not by sight ['Blessed are they that have NOT seen, and yet have believed' John 20:29] But we are confident, and well-pleased rather to be separated from the body, and TO BE [not instantly, but at a future time] at home [with our new spiritual bodies like Christ's] with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:1-8, Emphatic Diaglott).

[SQ]

Yes, Paul knew that once he died the next waking moment would be in resurrection with a new body (I Cor. 15:49), and although it would happen in an instant (from this life to the next life without missing a heart beat), in the twinkling of an eye (less than a second), nonetheless, it would have to wait until "the LAST TRUMP' (I Cor. 15:51). But to Paul from his perspective, it would only be but a moment in time, seeing that, "the living KNOW that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING."

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that SLEPT" (I Cor. 15:20).

Soon we too shall be like Him and see our Creator as He is:

"Beloved now are we the sons of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when He shall appear, we shall BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as HE is pure" (I John 3:2-3)

Make no mistake: death is an enemy, but it is "being ABOLISHED" (I Cor. 15:26) by the One who has already had victory over it. And although we will never experience being dead, we certainly experience the loss of our loved ones who have died, and they will experience loss when we die.

So take courage: If you are reading this little article then you are alive, and that is all you will EVER KNOW... LIFE!


(This the entire subject of L Ray Smith on death but for some reason I am uncomfortable with this. Most of his work is fantastic but this don't settle well with me, What do you all think about his subject of death? I am probably just to churchified, not sure. :mshock:)

[Pierac]

Ray was correct on this one. If you died tonight. You, meaning your body and soul, would remain dead until your resurrection.

2Ti 2:18  men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

Paul wrote this many years after Jesus rose from the dead. Many Christians died before this verse was penned in ink!    :2c:

Paul

[SQ]

Thank you for your reply, I need to study this more.
No one has been resurrected as yet?

[sparrow]

I do not believe in "soul sleep" at all.

I believe death is merely a doorway.
God doesn't need to "put us aside" for awhile... (soul sleep) until some future resurrection.
Our body goes into the ground, not our spirit.

Our spirit doesn't cease.
Our spirit goes on.
Our spirit does not die.

There are a bunch of bible verses that counter the idea of soul sleep.
I'm sure someone here can point you in that direction.

I personally believe what I believe due to personal experience with close loved ones who have passed away.

peace..

[AJ]

.
Hi SQ, You wrote:
"but for some reason I am uncomfortable with this. Most of his work is fantastic but this don't settle well with me,"


I agree with you.
Until just recently, my understand on death was of the 'soul sleep' persuasion.
But not any more.


There seems to be evidence that we existed as spirits before we became mortal human beings.  In otherwords – if we had a pre-mortal exist before coming to this earth....then upon death when our spirits return to God....we will have a post-mortal existence, immediately after our mortal death.

The following two sites, explain this in depth.....tho I don't agree with many things that they propose.....especially their explanation of the 'Lucifer – devil' view.


Pre-Mortal Life - dealing with Human Pre-existence 
- by Arthur & Rosalind Eedle.
http://www.oxleigh.freeserve.co.uk/aoy.index.htm


The Messianic Evangelist
http://www.nccg.org/preexistence.html


Peace, AJ...


.

[sparrow]

There seems to be evidence that we existed as spirits before we became mortal human beings. 

Just had to pop in to say...that this is a topic that is very interesting to me.
I lean in the direction that we existed before. and we are going BACK home.
I often ponder the thought of being in a garden of eden of sorts...and then one day...
wandering over to that "tree of knowledge of good and evil" and taking a bite...
and being subjected to futility on earth in this life in order to LEARN.
but one day going back home to where I truly belong.
It just all seems so oddly familiar. :dontknow:
It's one of those weird things that you think about but you can't quite put your finger on it.
A VERY interesting topic indeed!  :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

Let me start saying I haven't really made up my mind on this topic. (doesn't make any difference to me)

Many verses like the death know nothing. The witch of Endor etc seem to claim the dead are really dead.
Other verses may hint otherwise. Some may even been read that we existed before in heaven. Etc.

Now just focus on the ministry of Jesus.
He rose someone from the dead.
(Much) later He mentioned He was the only one that came from Heaven (and go back again)
If the dead sorta die and step into Heaven (that's what i understand from some of the above posts) how does that align with the claim of Jesus?
- The person died.
- Steps into Heaven.
- Jesus raises Him from the dead.
- So the person is pulled back from Heaven into his earthly body to be resurrected.
a] If the person was already in heaven I bet he rather stayed there.
b] That person also came down from Heaven -> Jesus wasn't the only one.

Just some thoughts.... :angelharp:

[jabcat]

I vascillate on this myself, but I think you bring up some very good points to consider.  There may be good explanations, but I'd think there would need to be, because those again, are good points.  I just don't really claim to have the absolute solid answer on this, myself.

[chuckt]

This topic has been hashed over and over, specially by me, i tend to try and stay away from it, because either way,be it we go straight to judgment or we  sleep  for 1 day or 10,0000 yrs to us it will only seem like a nano second.

and i have no fear of death, whatever it is, and none of us know because we havent died ((physically )) yet, but we have been give an assurance and the fear of death is gone.

sometimes i hate this world so much i want to depart, yet i also want to remain, either way im covered and trust in Him whom all things belong, awake are sleeping.

if i sleep, im the lords, if im awake, im the lords.


remember for now we have faith hope and love the greatest is love, we know in part now but when we see him face to face, all that will remain is LOVE, faith and hope will desolve.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

13 Yet now are remaining faith, expectation, love -- these three. Yet the greatest of these is love.


love remains, it never fails nor will it ever fail. for me, its ALL about love, it all comes back to love no matter how much i study, no matter how much knowledge i gain or how many mysteries i solve.


pursue love....AMEN. :thumbsup:


peace
chuckt

[WhiteWings]

Dead for ages, stepping right into Heaven or just dead forever. There is no difference for me.
When Heaven is real you know. If not, well you don't know what you are missing.

"For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything..." (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

The way I look at that verse.
The dead know nothing. That's just the way the unbeliever sees it. And those believing an age-during 'deadness'
The idea of stepping right into Heaven has 2 other problems.
a] People in Heaven are not dead. And I bet they know more than all of us combined.
b] If people step right into Heaven the word dead should be removed from the Bible because it simply doesn't exist.

Now you can argue that I mix up body, soul and spirit. Ok that can very well be true. But even then I have a 'problem'
a] Father and Son still call it dead. So there must be something different.
b] Jesus didn't want to get touched because He hasn't returned to Father yet. So He was dead for 3 days and not automaticly 'beamed' to Heaven. Either completly or in part (Spirit only for example)

Basicly my argument is this: If Father and Son speak many times of alive and dead; why should/can we claim it's not the case?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You brought up some good points to ponder WW. I can't see my spirit leaving heaven to be resurrected, either. Then again, it appears we left there to be birthed into this mess, and we all know how well THAT'S worked out so far.  :mshock: :winkgrin:
I want my wings back!  :grin:  Blessings...

[chuckt]

the body to dust, the spirit back to god who gave it, what is the spirit here? the breath of life or the soul?

chuckt

[WhiteWings]

I want my wings back!  :grin:  Blessings...

First goto the gym for some heavy workout for your ears. Then ask Sparrow for flying lessons :angel4:
If you want wings rightaway just click on the little globe under my avatar and buy some in my webshop...

[WhiteWings]

Then again, it appears we left there to be birthed into this mess

Alternative view I've never heard before.


Romans 8:19 (The New Testament In Modern Speech) states..."For
the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its
own choice, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it)." WOW!
Oh well...So much for "free will". As we can clearly see, GOD WAS
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FALL OF MAN! I know that some of you
who are reading this right now are shouting...NO!...That is not correct!
Nevertheless, it is the truth. Genesis 1:26-27 (King James Version)
states..."Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness..." So God
created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him;
male and female created He them. It is important for us to stop here
for a moment and meditate on what was just said. Did you happen to
notice that God created man in His own image, and that He created
him (man) male and female? Most casual readers of the Bible never
catch what was just said. Here is what must be taken into account: God
created man (the human race) in the spirit realm first before He placed
him (beginning with Adam) into the earth realm. Notice that Adam
was later formed of the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7. It was at this
time that Adam became a living soul. Remember...God breathed into
the nostrils of Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul. In
essence, the Adam of Genesis 1:26 was lowered into the soulish realm
and became the Adam of Genesis 2:7. THIS IS THE FALL!!! The act
of Adam's disobedience in his partaking of the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil (his carnal mind) was just a result of being lowered
(his subjection to failure and unreality) into the soulish realm by God.

[legoman]

:cloud9: You brought up some good points to ponder WW. I can't see my spirit leaving heaven to be resurrected, either. Then again, it appears we left there to be birthed into this mess, and we all know how well THAT'S worked out so far.  :mshock: :winkgrin:
I want my wings back!  :grin:  Blessings...

Hi,

I tend to agree with the article - when we are dead we are dead.  Like others have said, if we are actually conscious and/or "alive" immediately after we die, what's the point of the resurrection?

I view the spirit as this way: the spirit is the lifeforce that God breathes into a body to give it life.  But by itself, it does not contain our consciousness or personality or "us".

The spirit by itself is nothing.  A soul needs both body + spirit to be alive.

The spirit came from God when we were born and returns when we die.

(Keep in mind this spirit is different than the "holy spirit" or God's spirit, etc).

Also note when we are resurrected we will have a spiritual body - not to be confused with the spirit (lifeforce) God breathes into us. 

Our consciousness is the soul which needs body+spirit.  Without either our consciousness is "turned off" - kind of like when you turn off the TV. 

Note that the body portion of that equation can either be "physical" or "spiritual".  So:

physical body + spirit = soul (our life now)
spiritual body + spirit = soul (after the resurrection)

The spirit by itself does not contain our consciousness.

Just my current understanding.

[Zeek]

Rom 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

bearteth witness

G4828
συμμαρτυρέω
summartureō
soom-mar-too-reh'-o
From G4862 and G3140; to testify jointly, that is, corroborate by (concurrent) evidence: - testify unto, (also) bear witness (with).

[WhiteWings]

Zeek,

No negativity intended but what are you trying to say with that verse?
I understand the words but for me it says nothing about dead or our origin.

[Zeek]

Zeek,

No negativity intended but what are you trying to say with that verse?
I understand the words but for me it says nothing about dead or our origin.

On one of the posts, it talked as "the spirit" that returns to the Lord, as not being the Holy Spirit, but just the "power source to turn on the TV", that then creates "consciousness" when joined to a body (TV).  My point is that our spirit, is more than just a power source, as it "can testify or be testified to".  Seems to me from the verse I quoted, that our spirit is more than just "energy". 

hope that makes sense.

Z

[WhiteWings]

Very clear. I agree.

Maybe we need to see it more as a package deal?
What's more important in your body? Brain, heart, blood? Take one away and the others die too.

Can't find the article now and am not 100% sure I remember it right the Jews, at least some of them, explained the creation of  Adam a bit like this.
All animals have a soul. That includes man/Adam. But Adam also got a Spirit.
Nefesh and something very similar.
One is just 'life' the other 'contains' human reasoning and possiblity to communicate with God.
As said I have gaps in my memory on what Jewish scholars exactly wrote on the subject!

[SQ]

There seems to be evidence that we existed as spirits before we became mortal human beings. 

Just had to pop in to say...that this is a topic that is very interesting to me.
I lean in the direction that we existed before. and we are going BACK home.
I often ponder the thought of being in a garden of eden of sorts...and then one day...
wandering over to that "tree of knowledge of good and evil" and taking a bite...
and being subjected to futility on earth in this life in order to LEARN.
but one day going back home to where I truly belong.
It just all seems so oddly familiar. :dontknow:
It's one of those weird things that you think about but you can't quite put your finger on it.
A VERY interesting topic indeed!  :icon_flower:

Sparrow I definitely lean this way too, When my Grandmother died I was so distressed the apperance of her came to me before her burial and told me don't forget her and be sweet.
I know I have been told this was demons but why would demons want to give me comfort over the years? There is more like when my old dog died a month ago I love this dog so much, he had always barked one bark to wake me everyday the day after for 2 days I heard that one bark....I know sounds like emotions but for me was comfort. :HeartThrob:

[SQ]

Thanks everyone many good replies that I will consider as my view is not certain yet, but like sparrow I have had experiences that I lean toward conscious after death.

[legoman]

Zeek,

No negativity intended but what are you trying to say with that verse?
I understand the words but for me it says nothing about dead or our origin.

On one of the posts, it talked as "the spirit" that returns to the Lord, as not being the Holy Spirit, but just the "power source to turn on the TV", that then creates "consciousness" when joined to a body (TV).  My point is that our spirit, is more than just a power source, as it "can testify or be testified to".  Seems to me from the verse I quoted, that our spirit is more than just "energy". 

hope that makes sense.

Z

Hi Zeek, that was my post about the the "TV being turned off".  I agree its not a great analogy, but anyway...

Truthfully I find this area as confusing as everyone else.  Can the spirit testify?  It would appear so with the verse in Romans 8:16.  However I also believe there are two kinds of spirits that are talked about.

First their is the spirit that God breathed into Adam - the breath of life, that which makes our soul "alive".  This is what gets "turned off" when we die.

Then there are the verses in the bible where people are talked about being "spiritually alive" or "spiritually dead".  If someone is "spiritually dead", does that mean they have no spirit at all?  I don't think so, because all live humans have spirit - that is what makes them alive, combined with their body.

But not all people are "spiritually alive", and I believe it is this "spirit" that Romans 8:16 is talking about.

Two kinds of spirits.  I know its confusing and I don't fully understand it myself.  Perhaps someone else can explain it better.

What I do know for sure:
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend to heaven...

Sounds like no one is in heaven yet.  This part seems clear to me.  How the "spirit" works - giving life, testifying, being spiritually alive/dead, etc. is less clear to me.

Peace.

[sheila]

Psalms 126;1-6

    When the LORD brought back the captives to Zion...[.the

  spiritual children of God return to Jerusalem above]

   WE WERE LIKE MEN WHO DREAMED


   He who goes out reaping[God sowing His good seed in the

earth/spiritual children lowered into this realm/valley of

  shadow of death]

  WILL RETURN WITH SONGS OF JOY,CARRYING SHEAVES WITH

  HIM[ gather the wheat/God's spiritual progency,into the barn/

  God's storehouse in Heaven]

   We were alive and with Him in Heaven..when He  lowered us

  into this realm[unreality/vanity valley of shadow of death..it

  has become more or less a nightmare..you know how that

goes..seperation from love and security,fears,cold sweats,

rejection, spinning your wheels/getting nowhere..futility

in waking yourself up..doing things you would never do]


  Then in the midst of it all..you hear the voice of your Father,it

  reaches you...reality and stability peirces the terror of the

nightmare..even though you can not fully come out of it's grip ,

  but love is there and you are comforted,you recognize it..

  you keep it with you as the dream progresses..finally you

  enter a peaceful sleep/slumber/rest,until you hear His VOICE

COMPLETELY AWAKEN YOU

The nightmare is over,you are with your Father at home and

everything is alright. Your not cutoff from Him or rejected by Him

the nightmare was just an illusion.[ill-u-zion]


  John 11;4  THIS SICKNESS WILL NOT END IN DEATH,NO

  IT IS FOR GOD'S GLORY,SO THAT GOD'S SON MAY BE

  GLORIFIED THROUGH IT.


  Ecc 6;1  VANITY OF RICHES

   There is an evil which I have seen under the sun,and

  it is common among men;  a man to whom GOD HATH GIVEN

RICHES,WEALTH AND HONOUR,SO THAT HE WANTETH NOTHING

FOR HIS SOUL THAT ALL HE DESIRETH,YET,GOD GIVETH NOT

POWER TO EAT THEREOF,BUT A STRANGER EATETH IT;

THIS IS VANITY   AND IT IS AN EVIL DISEASE[think garden and

  trees]...sown in weakness/raised in power


Colossians 2;17  These are a shadow of the things that were

to come,THE REALITY HOWEVER,IS FOUND IN CHRIST[spirit]

  we are BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE[hour when all hear]


    v11 the CONCLUSION OF VANITY

   seeing there be many things that increase vanity,what is

  man the better?  For who knoweth what is good for man in

this life,all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a

shadow? For who can tell a man what shall be after him under

the sun?

     REMEMBER HE SUBJECTED US TO VANITY IN ORDER TO SET

US FREE INTO THE GORIOUS FREEDOM OF THE SONS OF GOD

   Jesus is the way,truth and light, as the firstborn from the dead

  the way He returned unto His Father and Our Father, is the

  way we return. We may have all been deceived by the delu-

  zion[misleading of the mind]but JESUS WASN'T.

   ALL MANKIND ARE HIDDEN IN HIM...AND WHEN HE SHALL

APPEAR WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM

[Doc]

.
Hi SQ, You wrote:
"but for some reason I am uncomfortable with this. Most of his work is fantastic but this don't settle well with me,"


I agree with you.
Until just recently, my understand on death was of the 'soul sleep' persuasion.
But not any more.


There seems to be evidence that we existed as spirits before we became mortal human beings.  In otherwords – if we had a pre-mortal exist before coming to this earth....then upon death when our spirits return to God....we will have a post-mortal existence, immediately after our mortal death.

The following two sites, explain this in depth.....tho I don't agree with many things that they propose.....especially their explanation of the 'Lucifer – devil' view.


Pre-Mortal Life - dealing with Human Pre-existence 
- by Arthur & Rosalind Eedle.
http://www.oxleigh.freeserve.co.uk/aoy.index.htm


The Messianic Evangelist
http://www.nccg.org/preexistence.html


Peace, AJ...


.

I didn't see the one called pre-mortal life on the first link above. Which article is it?