"Saved" from what?

[Cardinal]

Well, we still die, don't we?

'm not sure Doc. I have managed to avoid it until now :winkgrin:

:cloud9: rofl.......me, too..... :goodone:

[Doc]

Well, we still die, don't we?

'm not sure Doc. I have managed to avoid it until now :winkgrin:

Well, we still die, don't we?

Keyword: we.

Those in Heaven don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

Keywords: Those in Heaven

See the difference?

Yes, but the point of Revelation is that death in any form does not occur at all anymore at a certain point. It obviously still does, so...

Agreed.
But when is that certain point?
Th eidea put forward elsewhere in the thread is that several things can take place at the same time.
I continued in that line of thought that daed is abolished for those that are in the afterlife.
I hope you now understand what I mean. I want to add this is not the most obvious explanation for Revelation for me.

Yes, that's the $60,000 question.

[CHB]

What if after the GWT we are sentenced to the lake of fire.  And we discover that the "sentence of the lake of fire" is really to live our life over again, only this time we will learn what we didn't learn the first time around.  So not everything will go the way it did the first time.  And on top of that while we are in the lake of fire, we won't even realize that we are living our "sentence of the lake of fire".

Would you say this could be the second death then? If you have a second life wouldn't you have a second death? That is the first thing that came to mind when I read this. Where does it say we will know we are in the LOF?

CHB

[CHB]

Jesus paid and we go free. The main question for what exactly did He pay.
All sinned. Wages of sin is eternal death. Jesus payed for that so no more eternal death.
But I think He didn't pay to keep us out of LoF. We still need some good cleaning before we enter heaven.
Revelation takes place after Jesus died. And Revelation clearly speaks about being judged and cast into LoF.

Yes, Revelation was written after Jesus but if you notice, John in (Rev. 1:9) says, "I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation". It sounds like the tribulation was happening then. Also, what did John mean by saying "and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?   Did he consider himself being in the kingdom at that time?

So I think LoF is still on the menu.
In the future or right now?

It could be both. In (Matt. 25:41) it says, middle of verse... "depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting {aion} fire, prepared... {past tense}...for the devil and his angels".    When was it prepared and is it, or was it, being used in Jesus' day?

Perhaps things changed when Jesus died but the witch of Endor passage speaks of disturbing rest. That sounds like still being dead. So at that point things weren't happening all at once. Unless...... rest was Heavinlt rest/peace.
Think not but.... :dontknow:

I believe a lot of things did change after Jesus died and was resurrected. When you read Revelations and look up a lot of the references you can find a lot of the same things in the Old Testament.

CHB

[Doc]

What happens then, to "it is appointed unto (the) men once to die, and after that the judgment"?

I'm still confused as to whether that passage was talking about specific men in a specific context, or is to be applied to all men? Some here promote one view, others the traditional understanding of that verse.


I don't think it explicitly states that those there will know they're in the LOF, but it is rather implied by the "smoke of their torment" comment.

[martincisneros]

Yes, Revelation was written after Jesus but if you notice, John in (Rev. 1:9) says, "I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation". It sounds like the tribulation was happening then. Also, what did John mean by saying "and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?   Did he consider himself being in the kingdom at that time?

Yes, we've been in the Kingdom for 2000 years ever since Jesus came.  The passage in Zechariah that's cited on it says "here's your King riding a donkey...."  We're not to wait 'til some future age for righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.  The Kingdom was within them then, and has never been yanked out of us.  And as Jesus said, the whole Kingdom is compared to the lifecyle of a seed.  I hadn't noticed that before, that if someone was a dispensationalist that that would be a hiding place from much of what I was saying about sowing and reaping 'cause of the gap theory they hold to on the arrival of the Kingdom, just like they unbiblically gap everything else, like Daniel's 70th week, the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked, the creation with trying to insert a gap into the first few verses of Genesis, etc.  All of the various gap theories held to by dispensationalists have been too full of Biblical gaps ever since I started seeing through them three years ago.  What is it, like nearly 20 times that "this generation" comes up in the Gospels and in every other instance it means that first century generation, but in Matthew 24 we supposedly know better that that's thousands of years later??  I'm genuinely not slamming anyone when I bring up those inconsistencies on this thread and on the book of Revelation board 'cause as I've said repeatedly, I had those gaps in my theology until 3 years ago, and with my having read the New Testament a couple of times a week for years, I evidently had gaps in my intelligence to have not seen through it any earlier than when the Holy Spirit started blurting it out of me in my verbal preaching to others three years ago.  When Jesus said that some wouldn't taste of death until they saw the Kingdom come in that generation, it's because it happened.  In the New Testament, God doesn't react to unbelief.  He just keeps proactively moving forward with the program He's had in mind for thousands of years 'cause once the Blood was shed and the devil was bound so that we could start spoiling his house of every soul, then there hasn't been a reason to withhold anything.  We've been delivered from the authority of darkness and have been translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son, according to Colossians.

[legoman]

What happens then, to "it is appointed unto (the) men once to die, and after that the judgment"?

I'm still confused as to whether that passage was talking about specific men in a specific context, or is to be applied to all men? Some here promote one view, others the traditional understanding of that verse.

All men.

All men die once and then are judged.  The trick is this verse is talking about spiritual death.

Believers have their spiritual death in this life, are judged, and then are reborn ("born again" you might say).

Unbelievers have their spiritual death in/before the lake of fire, are judged (via the lake of fire), and then are reborn.

Same process for everybody, just different timing for the elect (believers now).

JMHO.

Cheers,
Legoman

[legoman]

I don't think it explicitly states that those there will know they're in the LOF, but it is rather implied by the "smoke of their torment" comment.

It could be implied because they are "tormented in the presence of the lamb" - does that mean they are literally aware of Christ's presence?

Also they go away to "eonian shame" - so they will realize the shame of it all.

Legoman

[CHB]

I don't think it explicitly states that those there will know they're in the LOF, but it is rather implied by the "smoke of their torment" comment.

It could be implied because they are "tormented in the presence of the lamb" - does that mean they are literally aware of Christ's presence?

Also they go away to "eonian shame" - so they will realize the shame of it all.

Legoman

Legoman,

Could that not still apply now? I mean, we have shame of the things we do now. When I think back on some things that I have done in my life I am ashamed and I am sure most people are. Not saying that you are not right. I am just reading and throwing out some thoughts that I have had and trying to figure this whole thing out too.

Martin,

I am leaning toward a belief that a resurrection occured in 70AD and Christ returning at that time. I do believe Christ will return again and that there are still things to be fulfilled but there are so many verses that would be solved it this were the case. Do dispensationalists believe this too?  :dontknow:


CHB

[martincisneros]

I evidently had gaps in my intelligence to have not seen through it any earlier than when...

Okay, I see one of the things I've been doing in my presentation style that some may have thought was me gunning for them.  'Cause I'm still beating myself up on an area of tradition that I clung to for as long as I did, I guess I unwittingly convey that anyone that's holding to that perspective is as dumb as I view myself to have been back in the day.  I genuinely don't extrapolate that because I'll feel that way about myself, that therefore everyone else who holds to a differing view of Scripture is the least bit dim witted or anything like that.  Furthest thing from my thinking and my feelings, sincerely. 

I still regard Kenneth Copeland as my spiritual dad, in the way that St. Paul fathered the Corinthians, Timothy, Onesimus, Titus, and many others.  But he's still dispensational, premillenial, ET, pretrib rapture, Cosmic Rambo return rather than taking Revelation 19 as the vision that it is that John was seeing in heaven, etc.  He hunts and fishes to my chagrin, etc.  But God gave me way too much through him of my initial understandings of Scripture and only a fool thinks they've genuinely outgrown their parents, whether naturally or spiritually.  God knew 20 years ago what I now know and still chose that route for getting me to where I'm at. 

I have what others would view as virtually impossible demands upon myself because I not only know the level of the gift of God in me, but my genetic potential.  I expect nothing but the best out of me, and that's not to say that that's not possible from others.  But I won't tolerate less from me after all that God's done in my life.  Not just as a love offering to Him, but my knowledge of the specifics of how deep grace has ran through me and what it's done and what's always at my command of specifics for getting my calling accomplished -- which includes being a few steps ahead of the rest.  It's not a vanity, though it may have lent itself to vanity 12 years ago when God outlined the specifics to me from 1Thessalonians 3:8-13 and I genuinely thought I was practically there with all truth then.  But the following decade very rapidly curtailed my presumption. 

But my attitude is [genuinely] that I can learn from anyone.  And when I bump into a dispensationalist, or into any contrary viewpoint of the Scriptures, that's where I'm coming from.  It's a "SHOW ME" attitude rather than a "you idiot" attitude.  And if I've ever come across that way to anybody at any time on any thread, as though I were belittling anyone, my deepest deepst apologies are yours.  I'm just coming at it from a "just show it to me in the Book, and that it's consistently in the Book and I'll recant all I've said up until now that's been the opposite."  And that goes for any subject you can think of, including ET and speciesism.  Just show it to me to be consistently taught [with no translational or other Biblical issues] in the Covenants that I regard to be a part of the New Covenant and it'll suffice.  For anyone that's ever gotten all of the way through Winchester's Dialogues (i.e. The Universal Restoration), my attitude is always the exact same as his, that I don't consider myself married to any system of theology, but will, with sufficient Biblical evidence, make the adjustments in what I've been saying thus far.  That's on any area of Biblical doctrine.

[martincisneros]

I am leaning toward a belief that a resurrection occured in 70AD and Christ returning at that time. I do believe Christ will return again and that there are still things to be fulfilled but there are so many verses that would be solved it this were the case. Do dispensationalists believe this too?  :dontknow:

Without getting into the full wikipedia article on dispensationalists and their distinctives and other things that you can find elsewhere online: For clarity, an example of dispensationalists would be the Concordant crowd: Tony Nungesser (who posts here sometimes), Martin Zender, etc.  These ideas of premill, pretrib rapture, separate Gospels to Israel and the Church (though not all dispensationalists go that far), the last writings of the New Testament being superior to the other writings of the Bible and supposedly teaching something distinct from them (though again, not all Dispensationalists go that far), Daniel's 70th week being yet to come, the rise of a literal personified AntiChrist, etc.  In the ET camp it would be Hal Lindsey, Perry Stone, Jack Van Impe, Ed Hindson, Grant Jeffrey (i.e. basically the TBN eschatology crowd). 

Now, where you're telling me that you're leaning would be partial preterism, that you still see many areas of prophecy yet to be fulfilled, but that many of the prophecies that many of the above folks that I've mentioned would still anticipate have already been fulfilled.  Few people go into the direction of partial preterism without becoming Postmillenialists, although it's possible for Postmillenialists to be futurists.  I've only within the last few weeks accepted partial preterism from finally having gotten a broadband internet connection and being able to watch what I could find on YouTube by Kenneth Gentry and Gary DeMar.  I believe they still likely lean towards ET and they're Calvinists, but they're partial preterist Postmillenialists that are good at pointing out the flaws in the dispensational system in a nonaccusatory way 'cause they've obviously been at it for years. 

I was initially going to look at the writings of David Chilton as an example of a Postmillenialist that's UR, but when I found out that he was total, full preterist towards the end, claiming that absolutely all of the prophecies of the Bible have already been fulfilled, I decided not to jump into the Titanic with him on that.  There's a 5 part audio by Kenneth Gentry on YouTube pointing out the Biblical errors of full preterists (including denying bodily resurrection altogether), and there's also about 25 video segments of his on "The Beast of Revelation Identified" that makes Nero the most likely suspect for 666, but with actual stuff from within the Book of Revelation regarding the number of emperors there had been up until then, the one that was, and the one that was yet to come. 

He gets more detailed than anything I'd seen presented on these boards thus far and Dr Gentry is evidently a very prolific writer along these lines who even has audio and DVDs that he offers at his site.  Again, a Calvinist, so if you like his stuff on YouTube it doesn't necessarily mean every title at his main website is going to be totally choice stuff.  But as long as you're aware of that, there's probably some really good stuff over there, from what I've seen so far of his online articles and those videos I've gotten to recently see.  Gary DeMar's stuff on YouTube seems to be excerpts from a video called the Harrowing of Hell.  I'd previously read articles by him online as I was googling Postmillenialism, but it was the first time I'd gotten to see and hear the guy.  So the videos from those two that I've seen on YouTube may be one of the reasons why over the last 4 to 6 weeks or so that I've really really dug my heels in on this Postmillenialism, that's the view of the conquest of human history with the preaching of the Gospel.

[martincisneros]

Again, my first aquaintance with Kenneth Gentry and Gary DeMar was through online articles if anyone finds YouTube videos problematic for their computer internet speed, happen to be hard of hearing and aren't sure if the audio could be turned up enough (I was personally able to get quite loud with it, but again, it'll depend on the speakers you have), or for any other reason, then just googling those names as well as looking at Postmillenialism and other search terms you'd bump into along the way would probably be helpful, plus I've posted some stuff on the book of Revelation board specifically about Postmillenialism.  I'm saying this 'cause I believe this thread's on one of the publicly viewable boards and for anyone new to the forum, they might not know other stuff's available and links are provided on the forum elsewhere.  Gary Amirault might even be able to point anyone in the direction of anything good on partial preterism and Postmillenialism 'cause he crossed those bridges years before I did.  And it was these eschatological differences that caused him to take some heat for alleged antisemitism a few years back.  He doesn't have a hateful gene in his body and he's got a Jewish wife, but when someone's tunnel visioned on Israel being more important than the Church in Bible prophecy, etc. (or carrying that attitude even if not articulating it quite that way) then anything that challenges Israel's centrality to future fulfillments of prophecy is going to get swatted at by those that are just completely unfamiliar with the Biblical issues being raised.

[martincisneros]

For those that don't know Michelle Amirault, Gary's wife, she's given her video testimony before.  You can find it on the home page of this website, towards the bottom of the page:  http://wisefire.tv  Actually, the video was right at the top center of the site when I just visited the link.

[reFORMer]

(I said something like this in The Book of Revelation board here somewhere; but, given the off-topic discussion, it seems good to share it again.)

The sentence beginning at verse 3 of 1 Peter 1 contains the title of the the book of "the revelation of Jesus Christ" in the end of v.7 and culminates with "...the consummation of your faith, the salvation of your souls." (v.9)  Consider that it says the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls.  When your soul, that is your thought will and emotions are subjected to, in alignment with and following the Spirit, and your soul is equipped and ready to be activated by the Spirit, you have arrived where your faith is intended to lead.  It is the outcome of your faith.

My reason for pointing this out is that I understand The Book of The Revelation (Unveiling) of Jesus Christ to be something that re-programs your mind to perceive what is in the heavenlies that is producing the realm of appearances in which many are still asleep.  I consider it to be the next step beyond prophecy; so, while it functions at times prophetically, it is actually apocalyptic, meaning revelatory.  While Academics have pointed out that it is an "Apocalypse," none of them I've found quite cross the line to point out its function in realigning your soul, leaving it instead as a literary genre.  God's foremost work is inward.  His blessing for those who read or hear read this culminating book of Scripture, the one into which all the rest flows, includes an elevation  of consciousness through restructuring it to correspond more accurately with reality as God perceives it.  This is important to make possible The Revelation of Jesus Christ.  It is important for our faith into Him to be brought to culmination in our psyche.  Without a passion corresponding with His, how can we be moved with compassion that the miraculous work of the Father to meet the needs of those around us be our manifest fellowship, that which our hands have handled of the Word of Life?  Where ever He manifests, however the glory, if you do not comprehend, even if you do perceive, there can be no revelation.  God's "Unveiling" is in your minds.  It is the first thing Jesus preaches, metanoia, "change your minds."  It is the end of your faith.

For this thread perhaps we could say we are being saved from the darkness of the carnal mind for the light of life.

[martincisneros]

Exactly, I've always found it odd when people have said around here that the soul is lost from Christians at death.  Not if you did what you were supposed to have done with it! and took charge of it with His Covenants and ran the unbelief out of it.  The Bible doesn't teach the loss of the soul.  It teaches the salvation of it.  Our souls are only required of us by the devil when he's allowed to keep the Word from producing a harvest through it.  And the Scriptures plainly tell us in Mark 4 the five things that he brings as pressures to try to steal the seed so that it won't produce.  Fear's the bottomline of strife and of everything else the devil uses to steal the Word and gain mastery of the soul so that the Scriptures say they're taken captive of him at his will to do his pleasures at his discretion.  But it's not hard to grab the Scriptures and run him off with them.  Otherwise, he jerks their quareling string like a puppet or a wind up toy. 

One of his favorite devises is to get people thinking they can have the Word without the Word.  It's the Scriptures that become flesh in you.  Not anything else.  Not any ideas and not the anointing by itself.  And I'd put my trips to the third heaven against anybody's.  When you go there, He points you right back at the Book and proves everything to you by the Book by the mouth of two or three or more witnesses.  Anything else is AntiChrist.  Those that say that they walk in Him must walk as He walked, according to 1John 2:6 and He claimed the sole basis of His origin, His calling, His authority, His power, His wisdom, His place in teaching others, His time with His heavenly Father, His destiny, and His view for restructuring Jewish society initially and then later for restructuring the nations upon the Scriptures.

Without a passion corresponding with His, how can we be moved with compassion that the miraculous work of the Father to meet the needs of those around us be our manifest fellowship, that which our hands have handled of the Word of Life?  Where ever He manifests, however the glory, if you do not comprehend, even if you do perceive, there can be no revelation.

Amen.  We are being saved from our thoughts and for His.  When a man's ways please the Lord (i.e. when he's walking by faith 'cause of Hebrews 11:6), He makes even His enemies to be at peace with him, i.e. to be at the Blood of Christ with him 'cause of peace having been made through the Blood of His Cross according to Colossians 1:20, which was promised in Isaiah 54.  When this is realized in a man, what you've said, reFORMer, then God's firm imperative in Isaiah 54 is to build a bigger house.  Then look out!! All thy children shall be taught of the Lord and great shall be the peace of thy children.  Fear, oppression, and terror can gather together, but they're not by Me, saith the Lord.  All of those things will fall for your sake.  Every tongue that rises against you in judgment shall fall for your sake.  This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord.  I've gotta go pray.

[WhiteWings]

Yes, Revelation was written after Jesus but if you notice, John in (Rev. 1:9) says, "I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation". It sounds like the tribulation was happening then. Also, what did John mean by saying "and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?   Did he consider himself being in the kingdom at that time?

:thumbsup:
I really like that bold part. Gonna be an entry in my organizer. Doesn't make things more logical for me but at least it gives a good starting point.
I assume tribulation is what takes place on earth in this life. LoF in the afterlife could be called tribulation too I guess.

[70sevens]

"Saved" from what?
Saved from the sin.

Then what is sin?
Sin is the separation of men from God.

Then what is the separation from God?
That is "no retaining God in one's knowledge."

What is "no retaining God?"
....questions will go on this way endlessly.

If someone realizes he has lived sinful life,
he will understand outright what "saved from sin" means.
No lengthy explanation is required.

Only sinners will require Jesus as Saviour, 
and they will follow Him forsaking everything, and will be saved.
If someone does not yet realize himself sinner,
then he does not require Jesus, the Saviour.

Coffee machine will give you coffee. 
If you require something else,
please do not hang around by the machine,
as it will give out only coffee.

Likewise, the Saviour will give you salvation,
if you require something other than salvation,
you do not have to hang around by the Saviour,
as He will give you only salvation.

Jesus is not discussion material, but Saviour.
Please leave Him alone, if you do not want salvation.

God bless.

[CHB]

I evidently had gaps in my intelligence to have not seen through it any earlier than when...

Okay, I see one of the things I've been doing in my presentation style that some may have thought was me gunning for them.  'Cause I'm still beating myself up on an area of tradition that I clung to for as long as I did, I guess I unwittingly convey that anyone that's holding to that perspective is as dumb as I view myself to have been back in the day.  I genuinely don't extrapolate that because I'll feel that way about myself, that therefore everyone else who holds to a differing view of Scripture is the least bit dim witted or anything like that.  Furthest thing from my thinking and my feelings, sincerely. 

I still regard Kenneth Copeland as my spiritual dad, in the way that St. Paul fathered the Corinthians, Timothy, Onesimus, Titus, and many others.  But he's still dispensational, premillenial, ET, pretrib rapture, Cosmic Rambo return rather than taking Revelation 19 as the vision that it is that John was seeing in heaven, etc.  He hunts and fishes to my chagrin, etc.  But God gave me way too much through him of my initial understandings of Scripture and only a fool thinks they've genuinely outgrown their parents, whether naturally or spiritually.  God knew 20 years ago what I now know and still chose that route for getting me to where I'm at. 

I have what others would view as virtually impossible demands upon myself because I not only know the level of the gift of God in me, but my genetic potential.  I expect nothing but the best out of me, and that's not to say that that's not possible from others.  But I won't tolerate less from me after all that God's done in my life.  Not just as a love offering to Him, but my knowledge of the specifics of how deep grace has ran through me and what it's done and what's always at my command of specifics for getting my calling accomplished -- which includes being a few steps ahead of the rest.  It's not a vanity, though it may have lent itself to vanity 12 years ago when God outlined the specifics to me from 1Thessalonians 3:8-13 and I genuinely thought I was practically there with all truth then.  But the following decade very rapidly curtailed my presumption. 

But my attitude is [genuinely] that I can learn from anyone.  And when I bump into a dispensationalist, or into any contrary viewpoint of the Scriptures, that's where I'm coming from.  It's a "SHOW ME" attitude rather than a "you idiot" attitude.  And if I've ever come across that way to anybody at any time on any thread, as though I were belittling anyone, my deepest deepst apologies are yours.  I'm just coming at it from a "just show it to me in the Book, and that it's consistently in the Book and I'll recant all I've said up until now that's been the opposite."  And that goes for any subject you can think of, including ET and speciesism.  Just show it to me to be consistently taught [with no translational or other Biblical issues] in the Covenants that I regard to be a part of the New Covenant and it'll suffice.  For anyone that's ever gotten all of the way through Winchester's Dialogues (i.e. The Universal Restoration), my attitude is always the exact same as his, that I don't consider myself married to any system of theology, but will, with sufficient Biblical evidence, make the adjustments in what I've been saying thus far.  That's on any area of Biblical doctrine.

Martin,

Let me say this just for clarification. I have learned from many different beliefs down through the years. I go to a Baptist Church sometimes and I read literature that many different people have written about many different subjects and beliefs. I don't consider myself a member or part of any of them. I don't like labels. I am not a dispensationalist, Universalist, Adventist, Baptist, Atheist, Uniterian, Catholic, you name it, I am a child of God, period. All of these labels belong to the world. I even listen to Joel Osteen, Joyce Myers, Charles Stanley, and even the ones you mentioned that were your mentors. Do I agree with everything they all say, no but I have learned a thing or two from them all.

As far as my beliefs go. The only thing I am pretty certain of is, if there is a God,...and I believe there is,...then all will be saved.  I do believe Christ was born, died, and was resurrected. As for everything else it is debatable, or discussable.  Paul said to grow in grace and knowledge. If we still believe and stick to the same things we did ten or twenty years ago, I don't believe we are growing in grace and knowledge.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Yes, Revelation was written after Jesus but if you notice, John in (Rev. 1:9) says, "I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation". It sounds like the tribulation was happening then. Also, what did John mean by saying "and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?   Did he consider himself being in the kingdom at that time?

When I first read 'tribulation' I was linking it to the 3.5 years of Revelation.
But I think the word has a more general meaning.
John was oppressed when preaching. That's tribulation also. Not all tribulation in life is The Tribulation.
Or.....?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The word tribulation comes from a word that means a threshing instrument for wheat. The chaff (things of the flesh) is removed from off the grain (Christ in us). Iron (tools like this) speak of judgment, ie. the judgment to the flesh.

The revelation of Christ in us, is accomplished thru this "tribulim" tool, thus Paul said that the sufferings of this present world are not worthy to be compared with what is getting ready to be revealed in us, Christ in you, the hope of glory. It's something that goes on in us, and around us, because we are a microcosm of the macrocosm. The process is described as birth pains elsewhere.

Essentially, the law/letter is the iron threshing instrument, and Satan is what carries out the judgment decree to our flesh, whose purpose is to reveal Christ in us. That's why His judgments are unto victory.

For those that don't yet know Him, it pushes them to find Him within themselves. For those that do, it pushes them to display Him openly, ie. declare His generation (which is Spirit seed). Those He falls upon are crushed, those that fall upon Him are broken. That essentially covers EVERYONE in one category or another. There's UR revealed again. It's EVERYWHERE. Blessings....

[Taffy]

:cloud9: The word tribulation comes from a word that means a threshing instrument for wheat. The chaff (things of the flesh) is removed from off the grain (Christ in us). Iron (tools like this) speak of judgment, ie. the judgment to the flesh.

The revelation of Christ in us, is accomplished thru this "tribulim" tool, thus Paul said that the sufferings of this present world are not worthy to be compared with what is getting ready to be revealed in us, Christ in you, the hope of glory. It's something that goes on in us, and around us, because we are a microcosm of the macrocosm. The process is described as birth pains elsewhere.

Essentially, the law/letter is the iron threshing instrument, and Satan is what carries out the judgment decree to our flesh, whose purpose is to reveal Christ in us. That's why His judgments are unto victory.

For those that don't yet know Him, it pushes them to find Him within themselves. For those that do, it pushes them to display Him openly, ie. declare His generation (which is Spirit seed). Those He falls upon are crushed, those that fall upon Him are broken. That essentially covers EVERYONE in one category or another. There's UR revealed again. It's EVERYWHERE. Blessings....

:icon_flower:

[CHB]

Yes, Revelation was written after Jesus but if you notice, John in (Rev. 1:9) says, "I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation". It sounds like the tribulation was happening then. Also, what did John mean by saying "and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?   Did he consider himself being in the kingdom at that time?

When I first read 'tribulation' I was linking it to the 3.5 years of Revelation.
But I think the word has a more general meaning.
John was oppressed when preaching. That's tribulation also. Not all tribulation in life is The Tribulation.
Or.....?

How do you see this verse?   (Rom.8:18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time". (2Cor. 4:8) "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are preplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken, cast down, but not destroyed".

Also, look at these verses. (Jude 23) And others save with fear. pulling them out of the fire.  (Amos 4:11) I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning;
(Zech. 3:2) is not this a brand plucked out of the fire.

I don't know if this was THE tribulation or not. I don't know for sure if this fire is different from the lake of fire we are discussing but if the lake of fire is in this life this would explain these verses.

Look up the word "tribulation" and "fire". What do you see?

Any way, something to think about.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

How do you see this verse?   (Rom.8:18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time". (2Cor. 4:8) "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are preplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken, cast down, but not destroyed".

To vague to build a doctrine one. A side dish not the main course.

Also, look at these verses. (Jude 23) And others save with fear. pulling them out of the fire.  (Amos 4:11) I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning;
(Zech. 3:2) is not this a brand plucked out of the fire.

A bit less vague....
You know I often look at things from a statistical pov. The verses you quoted are certainly food for thought on their own.
If you could quote say 20 then for me the stats edge closer and closer to proof of LoF is now.
Not the most common way to study the Bible; but that's how my mind works. :pointlaugh:

I don't know if this was THE tribulation or not. I don't know for sure if this fire is different from the lake of fire we are discussing but if the lake of fire is in this life this would explain these verses.

Just thinking out loud here.
One could argue it's unfair only the last generation of mankind get tribulation? So we all get our "3.5 years"
Why should some have extra hard or easy tests to enter Heaven? Why only the last generation has to avoid the mark of the beast? (I'm not trying to discuss what it actually is. Just to make explaining easier)
OTOH if we assume we are in LoF we must also assume we are (the bad guys that are) already have been judged before our birth. Our birth would be the casting into the fire.
But that line of reasoning has so many problems attached to it....
Hitler is out of LoF. Doesn't look he learned what loving your neighbour means. But still he exited LoF and stepped into Heaven.
What is the Bible all about? It speaks of creation, laws etc. But that's not our world it speaks about. Because we live in LoF. Many other problems exist with the LoF now theory.

So CHB....
a] You listed good verses.
b] I need more such verses, and perhaps more direct ones.
c] I need some argumentation to clear up the problems mentioned in the above pargraph.

[legoman]

A bit less vague....
You know I often look at things from a statistical pov. The verses you quoted are certainly food for thought on their own.
If you could quote say 20 then for me the stats edge closer and closer to proof of LoF is now.

Well there are lots of verses that talk about us going through the fire now... trial by fire, everyone salted with fire, refined in the fire, saved by fire, etc.

IMHO I don't believe those verses are talking about the "lake" of fire... but it just emphasizes the point that everyone goes through the fire, some in bits and pieces in this life, the rest in the lake later...

One could argue it's unfair only the last generation of mankind get tribulation? So we all get our "3.5 years"
Why should some have extra hard or easy tests to enter Heaven?

Remember God is impartial... no one has it easy.  If someone has it "too easy" in this life, that will be made up for in the lake of fire.  Only God knows what each individual must go through to become purified as a son of God so that the individual can then be made into the image of God.


Regarding the "great" tribulation... I think everyone will have their own tribulations to go through.   The "3.5 year" tribulation that the church teaches is yet another false doctrine IMHO.

Legoman

[WhiteWings]

Remember God is impartial... no one has it easy.  If someone has it "too easy" in this life, that will be made up for in the lake of fire.

That only makes sense if all die at a similar age.
What about a kid that dieds in some accident after living 4 very happy years. Why would that kid get 'hotter fire' in LoF?

Speaking about kids. What about babies that died at the age of 1 month? Do they become adults in the afterlife.
Babies have no sense about good and evil. They can't even say God, let alone they worship Him.