"Saved" from what?

[Doc]

I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

mmk that makes sense I spose

I do think otherwise.
If the flesh and sin are still problems, that means he is not saved yet by Jesus.
He believed another Jesus, that's why sin still remains in him.
If he claims that he is in the process of salvation to be complete,
I bet he will say so still in front of his death.
Thus, his whole life is being deceived without being saved.
 
It is good to have questions, as they will lead us to true Jesus.
But so many times our direction to Jesus is hampered
because we accept non-truth answers.
Maybe we may have to spend more time there.

God bless.

If we say we are without sin, then we lie and the truth is not in us.

[martincisneros]

On a technicality, we're in the Abrahamic Covenant.  I use the phraseology of Old Covenant and New Covenant because St. Paul distinguished the Gospel dispensation as the New Covenant in 2Corinthians 3:6.  But technically, it's all just one Covenant, the Covenant of Abraham.  Hebrews 8 refutes dispensationalism.  Even John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary acknowledged it to at least be "problematic for the dispensationalist."  The New Covenant as envisioned by Jeremiah 31 includes the Gentiles according to verses 27-28.  Galatians says about the inheritance of the Gentiles:

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law (i.e. not from the law itself, per se, although much of it is fulfilled in Christ, but from it's curse), being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

To say that all of the law is fulfilled is to say that the heavens and earth have passed away according to Jesus, and you can only go there if you're embracing full preterism which is a heresy based upon a pretty bad twisting of Luke 21:22 that prematurely dismisses what was written afterwards and areas of the Old and New Testament prophets not fulfilled by 70AD.

Anyway, that the blessing promised to Abraham would come upon the Gentiles, and although it's an interpretive translation, it's a better translation than saying the nations because of the two-fold issues of it having been addressed to the Church and it being about the inheritance of the first fruits which are the called, chosen, and faithful.  For other reasons as well, but trying to be brief.  And Romans 4 says that the blessing is the inheritance of the world rather than heaven, although we're likened to celestials in the Gospel because of the power of the transformative work of the Gospel in our lives rather than because of some separation that St. Paul says has been removed. Galatians 3 includes the promise of the Spirit in the Abrahamic Covenant.  Not just the promise made by the Spirit, but the Spirit Himself and all that flows as a result of His union and cooperation with the Chief Administrative work of Jesus our High Priest in our communion with Him.

Christ tore away the wall that separates Jew and Gentile that the dispensationalist does their best to try to rebuild, but those of us who were far away are brought near by the Blood in Ephesians 2, the same Blood that draws both Jews and Gentiles into One Body according to Ephesians chapters 2 and 4.  This mystery was always a part of the Gospel, including in Romans where it says:

25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (Romans 16:25-26)

Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians reveal the exact same teaching as every other book of the New Testament.  This is a semantical argument to say otherwise.  We've not seen the most advanced and final teaching of the Gospel yet revealed, though it's fully based in the Scriptures when it comes in the fullness of the Spirit and Power.  It won't be some extrabiblical thing as many have tried to insinuate by trying to include all kinds of extra old and new books to the canon.  The New Covenant is the seating of believers in this life on the throne of God according to Romans 5, Ephesians 2, and Revelation 3.  And 1John says that our faith is the victory that has overcome the world.  We are regarded as one new man in Christ, the Last Adam.  The new race is all that there will ever be.  When Israel is converted, they're reconciled with us rather than us with them.  God's concluded Judaism forever.  Joshua even says that all land promises were fulfilled in his day:

"So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it... Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass" (Joshua 21:43,45).

And the book of Hebrews makes it abundantly clear that the Jeremiah 31 land grant is our spiritual inheritance of taking all of the nations of the world and discipling them to the Gospel of Christ.  The Church is the only Biblical Israel that God will ever acknowledge ever again, although His Spirit will be poured out upon all Jews and they will behold Him Whom they've pierced in the exact same way that each of us have beheld Him Whom we've pierced.  Not a bit different in how they'll come to God through Christ Jesus.  There are many questions this may bring up and for brevity, I'll bring up the link for the 95 Thesis against Dispensationalism that has yet to be successfully answered though many Dispensationalists, including a number of leading ones, have promised a Biblical answer from their perspective, but have yet to deliver:

http://www.againstdispensationalism.com/95theses.shtml

[martincisneros]

If we say we are without sin, then we lie and the truth is not in us.

This was an attack on John's part against Paul for saying this:

Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man. (2Corinthians 7:2)

According to some scholars, while others hold that 1John 1 was written to the docetists because of their heresy, that if they'd confess their sin, then He would be faithful and just to forgive them of their sin and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness.  If we're cleansed from all unrighteousness, then no sin remains.  In other words, because of a lot of very startling statements in Paul's Gospel, 1John 1 was evidently specifically written to those that weren't Christians but were Gnostics.  The question about 1John 1:9 must be fairly answered that if He cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then what unrighteousness remains after the all has been cleansed?

[Doc]

If we say we are without sin, then we lie and the truth is not in us.

This was an attack on John's part against Paul for saying this:

Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man. (2Corinthians 7:2)

According to some scholars, while others hold that 1John 1 was written to the docetists because of their heresy, that if they'd confess their sin, then He would be faithful and just to forgive them of their sin and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness.  If we're cleansed from all unrighteousness, then no sin remains.  In other words, because of a lot of very startling statements in Paul's Gospel, 1John 1 was evidently specifically written to those that weren't Christians but were Gnostics.  The question about 1John 1:9 must be fairly answered that if He cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then what unrighteousness remains after the all has been cleansed?

Well, IDK. The text the way I have it says, If we confess our sin, then He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It doesn't seem to be clear whether this is a one time event, or if it is ongoing. Perhaps this is just the way I've been taught to view it, and is yet another thing I have to repent on. Perhaps the word homologeo there may give us a clue; if it's aorist, then I'd have more of a suspicion that the confessing is more of an ongoing process than a one-time event.

I guess to answer your question, I'd have to know if the confession, forgiveness and cleansing are a one time event or ongoing. If it's ongoing, then every time we confess, we're cleansed from all the unrighteousness associated with the confessed sin. If it's a one-time event, then the first time we do it, it's taken care of once for all. But it seems to me that if we sin again after we have been cleansed from the associated unrighteousness, then we have to rinse and repeat for the new sin?

[martincisneros]

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.htm

I've honestly never understood articles like this that don't tackle the immediate issue of Ephesians 2 where it says that we're brought nigh, not only to the Father by the Blood of Christ, but we're brought nigh to those covenants of promise.  Covenants in the plural.  A good theonomical argument could perhaps even be exegetically made out of what He's making one in His own Body, as far as Old Covenant and New Covenant.  Contextually, He's nullified the precepts and decrees that stood in the way of that oneness.  But He didn't nullify either portion of what He was making one.  Anyway, I don't insist upon this interpretation of Ephesians 2, but it was interesting as I was mentally running through the whole chapter again.  I'm still not fully persuaded of theonomy as being the right doctrine to present to world leaders, although I acknowledge the US constitution as being a fabulous example of it.  Just not sure if that's the totality of wisdom that God would wish to reveal through the High Priestly ministry of Jesus (1Corinthians 1:30).

[martincisneros]

Well, IDK. The text the way I have it says, If we confess our sin, then He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It doesn't seem to be clear whether this is a one time event, or if it is ongoing. Perhaps this is just the way I've been taught to view it, and is yet another thing I have to repent on.

Back up a couple of verses to where it says that as we stand in faith on the finished work of Christ that it's a perpetual cleansing.  But it's a different mindset with walking in the light rather than walking in an Old Testament consciousness of sin that Hebrews chapters 1 and 10 say that once we've been purged, we should have and tolerate no more consciousness of sin, but as 2Corinthians 10 says, we should bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  We walk in the light of that cleansing thanking God that we're free, according to Colossians 2:6-7 rather than forking over evidence to the accuser of the brethren to try to convict us with.  Rebuking the thought of whatever sort that it is that would try to get us to take a step out of the light is the way you deal with it under grace.  St. Paul said he'd slap his body around commanding it to straighten up and get in line with the Word. 

Obviously a few generations later turned it into unbelief with trying to atone for one's own sins with a lot of personal whips that believers started using on themselves.  But when he talked about buffeting his body, he wasn't speaking of anything either metaphorical on the one hand, nor on the opposite extreme of some of the Catholic practices over the centuries.  He was talking about striking that body of his with the same hand that he'd lay on the sick for their healing and expect the Holy Spirit to quicken His Body according to Romans 8:11.  Works wonders when you've been standing against something in faith for the longest time, but have somehow either inevitably kept falling prey to it or just never have been able to get out from under that flesh pressure that's trying to hang on. 

I've popped myself more than once commanding my body to settle down over the gluttony issue and to come in line with the Word of God that says I'm supposed to be sanctified spirit, soul, and body.  Hebrews 5:12-14 says that through training, and as you'd say, we proceed to draw from the tree of life.  This is an area of the laying on of hands that you better be sure that your condemnation issues have been resolved with the Word of God first before you ever feel lead to administer this to yourself to forcefully break with something.  And obviously, I'm not talking about self mutilation or knocking one's self out.  I'm not talking about getting ridiculous with repeatedly pulling it in line over the exact same thing.  Our repetitiveness is in the renewal of our minds with the Word, but sometimes you need to reboot the system and get in the mirror and tell yourself that we're not doing this again :punish: 

Get that serious about it, and it's not self righteousness although some may accuse you of that later.  But it'll be the outworking of His righteousness in your life and you'll inherit the promise of that liberty.  Righteousness will flow just like wisdom and healing, and we ought to be taking greater advantage of the laying on of hands on ourselves where our own stand of faith in His exceeding great and precious promises are concerned.  I had to do that more than once when I had a pinched nerve in my right leg a couple of months ago, and it lasted about 5 weeks instead of the months and months that some websites were telling me it would wind up taking.  And when you've got a nerve running down the side of your leg that's absolutely screaming, the last thing you want to do is smack that thing telling it to stop that in the Name of Jesus. 

But I grew up around a healing Gospel, so, I can approach infirmity of my own flesh in that way from a position of deep roots of the Word rather than trying to magically make anything happen through the mind or the will.  Anyone with no depth in the Word regarding these things that I'm talking about, briefly, better ignore all I just said and head for the emergency room immediately if anything weird happens this week 'cause mere mimickery won't produce the results if you're not a disciple of the Word in that particular area of the Word.  For most people, since dealing with this sin issue is all they've ever heard, then instead of repenting 75 times a day for the same thing, they need to take a long hard look at the Gospel that says they're free and deal with themselves in the thought realm speaking to themselves as a joint-heir with Christ that's already been made free from all of these afflictions.  After they've repented of something, they ought to be repeatedly thanking God for their cleansing and liberty in the Spirit from that and laying claim to the Lord's strength and wisdom affirming that with His grace they're not getting into that mess again.  Every area in our lives needs to be diligently approached with the Word and our thanksgiving until we have that release in the spirit that we've given it the attention that it needed and that Goliath isn't getting up again in our lives.  There does come a point where the day dawns and the morning star arises in your heart about various issues.

Where a lot of sin creeps into the lives of believers is in thinking about food all day long, rather than the Word, or thinking of what they should have told so and so after some incident and then they get home all pumped with the wrong words and don't understand why they called their spouse ugly and smacked their kids across the room over absolutely nothing.  A lot of sin in the lives of believers is premeditated, when if we'd just nip this in the bud by refusing to be victims in our own minds of our flesh, our genes, etc., then a whole lot of things in the Word would reboot and come on line in our spirits and we'd be more consistently speaking faith to every situation of our lives and keeping every care completely rolled over on Him because we know that He cares for us.  We shouldn't consider it burdensome to ourselves to speak to ourselves of the same things over and over again of how much He cares for us and how much He's provided at the Cross because we haven't followed cunningly devised fables.

[Doc]

Well, IDK. The text the way I have it says, If we confess our sin, then He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It doesn't seem to be clear whether this is a one time event, or if it is ongoing. Perhaps this is just the way I've been taught to view it, and is yet another thing I have to repent on.

Back up a couple of verses to where it says that as we stand in faith on the finished work of Christ that it's a perpetual cleansing.  But it's a different mindset with walking in the light rather than walking in an Old Testament consciousness of sin that Hebrews chapters 1 and 10 say that once we've been purged, we should have and tolerate no more consciousness of sin, but as 2Corinthians 10 says, we should bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  We walk in the light of that cleansing thanking God that we're free, according to Colossians 2:6-7 rather than forking over evidence to the accuser of the brethren to try to convict us with.  Rebuking the thought of whatever sort that it is that would try to get us to take a step out of the light is the way you deal with it under grace.  St. Paul said he'd slap his body around commanding it to straighten up and get in line with the Word. 

Obviously a few generations later turned it into unbelief with trying to atone for one's own sins with a lot of personal whips that believers started using on themselves.  But when he talked about buffeting his body, he wasn't speaking of anything either metaphorical on the one hand, nor on the opposite extreme of some of the Catholic practices over the centuries.  He was talking about striking that body of his with the same hand that he'd lay on the sick for their healing and expect the Holy Spirit to quicken His Body according to Romans 8:11.  Works wonders when you've been standing against something in faith for the longest time, but have somehow either inevitably kept falling prey to it or just never have been able to get out from under that flesh pressure that's trying to hang on. 

I've popped myself more than once commanding my body to settle down over the gluttony issue and to come in line with the Word of God that says I'm supposed to be sanctified spirit, soul, and body.  Hebrews 5:12-14 says that through training, and as you'd say, we proceed to draw from the tree of life.  This is an area of the laying on of hands that you better be sure that your condemnation issues have been resolved with the Word of God first before you ever feel lead to administer this to yourself to forcefully break with something.  And obviously, I'm not talking about self mutilation or knocking one's self out.  I'm not talking about getting ridiculous with repeatedly pulling it in line over the exact same thing.  Our repetitiveness is in the renewal of our minds with the Word, but sometimes you need to reboot the system and get in the mirror and tell yourself that we're not doing this again :punish: 

Get that serious about it, and it's not self righteousness although some may accuse you of that later.  But it'll be the outworking of His righteousness in your life and you'll inherit the promise of that liberty.  Righteousness will flow just like wisdom and healing, and we ought to be taking greater advantage of the laying on of hands on ourselves where our own stand of faith in His exceeding great and precious promises are concerned.  I had to do that more than once when I had a pinched nerve in my right leg a couple of months ago, and it lasted about 5 weeks instead of the months and months that some websites were telling me it would wind up taking.  And when you've got a nerve running down the side of your leg that's absolutely screaming, the last thing you want to do is smack that thing telling it to stop that in the Name of Jesus. 

But I grew up around a healing Gospel, so, I can approach infirmity of my own flesh in that way from a position of deep roots of the Word rather than trying to magically make anything happen through the mind or the will.  Anyone with no depth in the Word regarding these things that I'm talking about, briefly, better ignore all I just said and head for the emergency room immediately if anything weird happens this week 'cause mere mimickery won't produce the results if you're not a disciple of the Word in that particular area of the Word.  For most people, since dealing with this sin issue is all they've ever heard, then instead of repenting 75 times a day for the same thing, they need to take a long hard look at the Gospel that says they're free and deal with themselves in the thought realm speaking to themselves as a joint-heir with Christ that's already been made free from all of these afflictions.  After they've repented of something, they ought to be repeatedly thanking God for their cleansing and liberty in the Spirit from that and laying claim to the Lord's strength and wisdom affirming that with His grace they're not getting into that mess again.  Every area in our lives needs to be diligently approached with the Word and our thanksgiving until we have that release in the spirit that we've given it the attention that it needed and that Goliath isn't getting up again in our lives.  There does come a point where the day dawns and the morning star arises in your heart about various issues.

Where a lot of sin creeps into the lives of believers is in thinking about food all day long, rather than the Word, or thinking of what they should have told so and so after some incident and then they get home all pumped with the wrong words and don't understand why they called their spouse ugly and smacked their kids across the room over absolutely nothing.  A lot of sin in the lives of believers is premeditated, when if we'd just nip this in the bud by refusing to be victims in our own minds of our flesh, our genes, etc., then a whole lot of things in the Word would reboot and come on line in our spirits and we'd be more consistently speaking faith to every situation of our lives and keeping every care completely rolled over on Him because we know that He cares for us.  We shouldn't consider it burdensome to ourselves to speak to ourselves of the same things over and over again of how much He cares for us and how much He's provided at the Cross because we haven't followed cunningly devised fables.

I hear what you're saying here, particularly with regard to the first paragraph; I was wondering about that in looking at the passage, and that seems to be what I had been trying to learn lately, but was so far unsuccessful in experiencing. If the cleansing is an ongoing process, then why isn't the confessing? Although, maybe it is in that sense and context of walking in the light. If you're walking in the light, then those things that are being cleansed are going to be exposed by the light, and you "confess" them by simply doing what the Greek there means, which is to assent to the fact that; yes there's that thing that's being cleansed, and then watch it go as quickly as it showed up kind of thing.

[martincisneros]

A lot of sin in the lives of believers is premeditated, when if we'd just nip this in the bud by refusing to be victims in our own minds of our flesh, our genes, etc., then a whole lot of things in the Word would reboot and come on line in our spirits and we'd be more consistently speaking faith to every situation of our lives and keeping every care completely rolled over on Him because we know that He cares for us.

When I said this, I didn't mean premeditated as far as the particular deed, like someone was planning on lying to a loved one all day or whatever.  A true believer isn't regarding iniquity in their hearts.  What I'm talking about is meditation/worry about their fears, all of the natural reasons for them to feel condemned and less than God's best, inspite of the Cross and the renewing by the Word and regeneration of the Spirit at work in their lives.  They see themselves "under the circumstances" rather than seated with Christ as a joint-heir of all of the pottery around them, starting with their own bodies.  They meditate their fear, their stress, their frustrations, the things that annoy them and how annoyed they were by this or that, and when they meditate on how some wrong from themselves or others made 'em feel and really nurture those emotions by giving themselves more and more to them, then of course they're going to act out of character for someone seated at the right hand of God in Christ.  Or they're letting the devil steal the Word over some religious or semantical or political difference and aren't putting the pressure on the Word.  We've got to separate the pressure from the problem in our minds, realizing that all of the problems have already been solved by Jesus and we're LABORING DILIGENTLY to enter into His rest.  God said it, I said it after Him, so that settles it.  Nothing could be simpler.  But if you see yourself in the pig pen all day, then you're going to pick up your loved ones when you get home and try to literally throw them into the pig pen out back!

[martincisneros]

I hear what you're saying here, particularly with regard to the first paragraph; I was wondering about that in looking at the passage, and that seems to be what I had been trying to learn lately, but was so far unsuccessful in experiencing. If the cleansing is an ongoing process, then why isn't the confessing? Although, maybe it is in that sense and context of walking in the light. If you're walking in the light, then those things that are being cleansed are going to be exposed by the light, and you "confess" them by simply doing what the Greek there means, which is to assent to the fact that; yes there's that thing that's being cleansed, and then watch it go as quickly as it showed up kind of thing.

A lot of times over the last 3 years, if I have missed the mark, my immediate response was words to this effect:

No sir, I'm not going to yield to that and be moved by what I see or by what I feel.  I already repented of that and I'm standing on the Word that says I'm free.  I've already cast the care of that over on God and taken every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  I cast down this imagination that's trying to exalt itself against the Word of God in my life as though I'd failed to receive my cleansing, and I'm entering into the joy of the Lord because He's faithful and just regardless of what it looks like, what I feel or don't feel, or what I see in the mirror.  I believe I was cleansed and I yield to the authority of that, rather than commiting an additional sin by yielding to my flesh as an authority of what I just said or did, or in what way I may have appeared to have stepped out of the light.  I already repented and I'm not going back on that repentance, no matter what.  As it says in Psalm 15:4, I've sworn to my own hurt and I don't change.  Not now.  Not ever.  I'm cleansed of that in the Name of Jesus and the devil's cast out.  Devil, you're not taking my liberty from me in Christ and subjecting me again to bondage in the Name of Jesus.  You are resisted, so take your attempt at bringing me under condemnation and the lower law of consequences that is not the law of seed-faith and get out of here.  I yield only to the authority of my Lord Jesus regarding all things that pertain to my life and godliness in Him.  Christ Who is my life appears in this flesh, and I appear with Him in glory as well.  YOUR'RE NOT TAKING MY HARVEST AWAY FROM ME OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE, AND JOY IN THE HOLY SPIRIT EVER!!!!

[martincisneros]

In other words, stand on your repentance by faith.  You've already repented, right?  Don't let the devil steal that.  It is finished!

[CHB]

After reading the article "Against Dispensationalism" I come to the conclusion they don't understand Dispensationalism completely and neither do I. I do not consider myself a dispensationalists. I do not know for sure if there will be a rapture, I find more scripture against it than for it. I do believe the Covenants were for Israel ONLY because that is what the scriptures plainly say. The Old Covenant was between God and Israel which no one tries to dispute but they try to say the New Covenant was for Jew and Gentile which the Bible does not say at all. God said "I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel"... because the Old Covenant was going to be done away with. If I came to you and said "I am going to give you a new computer because your old one is shot and doesn't work any more" would you think I was speaking to someone over in Israel also?  Just using this as an example.

CHB

[Doc]

In other words, stand on your repentance by faith.  You've already repented, right?  Don't let the devil steal that.  It is finished!

So it would seem. I've wanted to believe this since I read of the concept from Gary Sigler, but just couldn't quite get my head around it. I have to remember to believe what God says in the scriptures, rather than my experience.

[martincisneros]

If I came to you and said "I am going to give you a new computer because your old one is shot and doesn't work any more" would you think I was speaking to someone over in Israel also?  Just using this as an example.

The covenant was never with Israel, it was with Abraham and Christ.  They enjoyed many of it's blessings, but the Scriptures say that it was between God, Abraham, and Christ that's why though they could break the law and be deserving of the most horrendous death, yet God just kept coming with promises through the prophets of better days ahead 'cause the covenant had never been broken.  It was settled on Mt Moriah and at the Cross.  The blood covenant was always a blood covenant of faith.  The Law belonged to Israel, but the blood covenants weren't exclusively theirs.  They belonged to the seed, which is Christ and those that belong to Christ, otherwise you're saying that the blessedness of the blood covenants only come to those under the law which Paul flatly rejected in the following, as well as elsewhere:

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only (i.e. of the Covenant), or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. (Romans 4:6-18)


16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (one in Christ means one in the Covenant.  There is no other oneness that the Bible acknowledges from cover to cover.)
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


To say that the covenants only belonged to Israel is like saying that only monogamous marriage belongs to Israel while something else entirely from God belongs to the nations.  Mormons have tried that one in previous generations.  God's never blessed it, and so it is with the Gospel.  God will never acknowledge more than one way to come to Him.  It's through the Blood of Christ and the oaths God took in that blood.  The Mosaic Law alone belonged to those that were Jews and those God fearers in the Old Testament that wanted to join themselves to the Israeli society, as many did at the close of the book of Esther.  But the Covenant was for Jew and Gentile and Abraham's the father of those that believe, whether Jew or Gentile. 

The two administrations doctrine is actually rooted in cessationistic ideas rather than in any reality about the New Covenant, or certain writings no longer applying on no other basis than when they were written.  It's an intellectual relativistic shell game that the Apostles didn't get the goods from Jesus Himself, and it's a horrible abuse of what He promised about more on the presupposition that nobody got it but Paul which is bogus as you compare all of the writings of the New Testament.  Because we've theologically created this system based upon the Son of God totally divorced from the Abrahamic heritage, then we're able to chuck all of the Old Testament blessings, along with the miraculous, and when we do, we nullify what He said over the Bread and Cup that was what He bled for alone. 

He didn't die for anything else, but the New Covenant.  Separate yourself from the New Covenant and you've separated yourself from the Christ of the pages of the Bible.  The nullification of the supernatural in Christianity is rooted in this idea that the New Covenant essentially passed away and/or got postponed to God's resurrection of Judaism because He's supposedly acknowledging two ways during the millenium, which is total heresy.  And I'm not jumping you for having said what you said.  This is just such a major thief of God's blessings for the Church and through the Church to the nations being discipled by the Church, including Israel.  According to St. Paul, all of the covenants and all of eschatology is summed up in the Son of Abraham, rather than in Jacob.

[70sevens]

I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

mmk that makes sense I spose

I do think otherwise.
If the flesh and sin are still problems, that means he is not saved yet by Jesus.
He believed another Jesus, that's why sin still remains in him.
If he claims that he is in the process of salvation to be complete,
I bet he will say so still in front of his death.
Thus, his whole life is being deceived without being saved.
 
It is good to have questions, as they will lead us to true Jesus.
But so many times our direction to Jesus is hampered
because we accept non-truth answers.
Maybe we may have to spend more time there.

God bless.

If we say we are without sin, then we lie and the truth is not in us.

Yes,
as I say, we confess ourselves we are sinners according to the teachings at the Church.
But we are confessing so superficailly by lips only,
not from the bottom of our hearts based on the sinners' life,
in order to be friends of Jesus and/or to be saved.

In this case, we are fake sinners who do not know really what the sinners are.
Therefore, these men are they that who are without sin in the verse,
and naturally there is no truth in them, and they lie.

[jhys06567]

I also have difficulty understanding what we are saved from. This is coupled with the question as to why Jesus had to die - or, more to the point, what would have become of humanity if He hadn`t died?

Also, does the death of Christ purchase everlasting life for everyone or just eonian life for believers?

Possibly the problem is that many of us who are from an evangelical background  have inherited a "substitutionary" view of the atonement which may have to be re-examined

Don`t get me wrong, I too believe that all will "get to heaven" in the end, but I would like a clear understanding of how this happens.

Jeff

[70sevens]

Jesus died on the cross 2000 years ago to save our sin.
How come his death on the cross can save us from our sin?
At 2000 years ago, we were not even born.
Of course, he saved his disciples at his age who followed Him 3 years.
But how about us who are living here?

Traditionally we are taught that if we believe the fact that Jesus is the Saviour
then we are saved.
To tell the truth, that is only imaginary salvation,
which is not the salvation that Bible says.

We are required to meet Jesus individually as disciples did
and be healed by him.
Then, we will be saved from our sin.
This salvation will be the same quality with that of the disciples.
And the Bible says only this salvation. No other kind.

The death of Jesus 2000 years ago was path-breaking
for all mankind to enter the Kingdom of God (to be saved).
Those who wish to enter the Kingdom of God (to be saved) are to go to the path
by meeting Jesus individually.

Many people think that they are under the process of salvation
because they get dreams/visions and revelations from God/Holy Spirit.
But that is not Jesus, the Saviour.

We should know the difference amongst God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.
What do you think the difference is? Or do you think all are same?

[CHB]

If I came to you and said "I am going to give you a new computer because your old one is shot and doesn't work any more" would you think I was speaking to someone over in Israel also?  Just using this as an example.

The covenant was never with Israel, it was with Abraham and Christ.  They enjoyed many of it's blessings, but the Scriptures say that it was between God, Abraham, and Christ that's why though they could break the law and be deserving of the most horrendous death, yet God just kept coming with promises through the prophets of better days ahead 'cause the covenant had never been broken.  It was settled on Mt Moriah and at the Cross.  The blood covenant was always a blood covenant of faith.  The Law belonged to Israel, but the blood covenants weren't exclusively theirs.  They belonged to the seed, which is Christ and those that belong to Christ, otherwise you're saying that the blessedness of the blood covenants only come to those under the law which Paul flatly rejected in the following, as well as elsewhere:

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only (i.e. of the Covenant), or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. (Romans 4:6-18)


16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (one in Christ means one in the Covenant.  There is no other oneness that the Bible acknowledges from cover to cover.)
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


To say that the covenants only belonged to Israel is like saying that only monogamous marriage belongs to Israel while something else entirely from God belongs to the nations.  Mormons have tried that one in previous generations.  God's never blessed it, and so it is with the Gospel.  God will never acknowledge more than one way to come to Him.  It's through the Blood of Christ and the oaths God took in that blood.  The Mosaic Law alone belonged to those that were Jews and those God fearers in the Old Testament that wanted to join themselves to the Israeli society, as many did at the close of the book of Esther.  But the Covenant was for Jew and Gentile and Abraham's the father of those that believe, whether Jew or Gentile. 

The two administrations doctrine is actually rooted in cessationistic ideas rather than in any reality about the New Covenant, or certain writings no longer applying on no other basis than when they were written.  It's an intellectual relativistic shell game that the Apostles didn't get the goods from Jesus Himself, and it's a horrible abuse of what He promised about more on the presupposition that nobody got it but Paul which is bogus as you compare all of the writings of the New Testament.  Because we've theologically created this system based upon the Son of God totally divorced from the Abrahamic heritage, then we're able to chuck all of the Old Testament blessings, along with the miraculous, and when we do, we nullify what He said over the Bread and Cup that was what He bled for alone. 

He didn't die for anything else, but the New Covenant.  Separate yourself from the New Covenant and you've separated yourself from the Christ of the pages of the Bible.  The nullification of the supernatural in Christianity is rooted in this idea that the New Covenant essentially passed away and/or got postponed to God's resurrection of Judaism because He's supposedly acknowledging two ways during the millenium, which is total heresy.  And I'm not jumping you for having said what you said.  This is just such a major thief of God's blessings for the Church and through the Church to the nations being discipled by the Church, including Israel.  According to St. Paul, all of the covenants and all of eschatology is summed up in the Son of Abraham, rather than in Jacob.

Martin, the thing is, and what I have been trying to say is. Why do we need a Covenant? We are not under any Covenant. A Covenant is an agreement between two parties that agree to certain rules. The way I understand it is, the plan of God from the very beginning, was to get to the point where paul got to. No laws, no rules, no Covenants, connected with our salvation. That is why I said it depends upon the knowledge of the whole thing.  Of course it was in God's plan that things happen the way they have happened.

Please explain this verse (Jer. 31:31-33) Behold the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;  {Verse 32 shows who this old covenant was with and why the new covenant.}    (Verse 33) But this shall be the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God and they shall be my people.

Also this verse (Heb. 8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Jesus died for Israel first and formost but he also died for the world because of the sinful flesh of Adam being passed on to all. Jesus message was mostly to Israel and he even said this Himself (Matt 15:24) I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It's kind of like what it says in (1Tim. 4:10) Jesus is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe.

If there is a millennium still to come then these Covenants will be re-instituted again until all come into the knowledge of the truth. Which is one with God not one with Israel. We don't need Israel or Abraham to become children of God. We already are children of God. It is the knowledge of who we are that is the key to the whole thing.

I believe we are saved from this fleshly body. If Jesus hadn't died, was resurrected, wouldn't we have died and remained dead?

CHB

[Nathan]

We've got like three or four threads going here in one.  A lot of great conversations and difficult to not get overwhelmed by the topics . . .really great stuff.

For me . .first, the title of the thread . . .saved from what?  I've stated this before and I'll state it again . . .this place of redemption that ungodly men will have to experience in order to be purged, cleansed and purified before entering into the fulness of the kingdom, it "must" be a pretty violent experience otherwise, for me, Christ would not have gone through such great lengths of violence and bloodshed in place of us, so that we ourselves would not have to go through that terrible of an experience.  So for me, the salvation is "from" that lake of fire.

Not just saving us "from" but saving us "for" is also another facet of this subject as well.  As Noah entered the ark and was saved from the destructive nature of life on earth, we to, when we enter into Christ are then saved not only "from" the destructive forces at work in this life, but we are saved "for" the birthing of a new life in a new realm.  Just again as Noah and his family was saved . . .he was set aside "for" the regeneration of the earth "after" the destruction of the flood.

To the topic of covenants . . .for me, a covenant is not just a promise from one party to another.  Nor is it something given to an entire nation . . .but a covenant is representative.  It's like when our president sets down with the leader of another nation . . .and if that other leader verbally offends our president, they've verbally offended the nation he represents.

Yes, the covenant was between God and Abraham . . .but it affected ALL the offspring that came "through" Abraham as well.  It was a promise between God and one man, but that one man was representative to all men and women that would later be birthed through that one man.  God and Adam lived in a covenant relationship . . .Adam broke his end of the bargain and God reestablished it through Abraham and manifested that through Christ.

To the subject of what applies to Jews and what applies to Gentiles . . .a Jew can not be a Gentile physically, but a Gentile can "become" a Jew.  It's all about the circumcision . .which again, began with Abraham.  But the key for us to see here is that everything is spiritual and even though "physcially" I'm not a Jew . . .Spiritually, all who call on the name of the Lord become "grafted" into the spiritual Jewish family.  To men, Jews are those that are linked by blood to Abraham . . .To God, a Jew is a man who has entered into this covenant of promise with God.  The Old covenant is no longer in effect, but the New has replaced the Old.  The Old was based on the activity of men, the New is based on the rest of the Christ.  Paul even states that we all are spiritually Jews . . circumcised by the same spirit of God.

[Doc]

We've got like three or four threads going here in one.  A lot of great conversations and difficult to not get overwhelmed by the topics . . .really great stuff.

For me . .first, the title of the thread . . .saved from what?  I've stated this before and I'll state it again . . .this place of redemption that ungodly men will have to experience in order to be purged, cleansed and purified before entering into the fulness of the kingdom, it "must" be a pretty violent experience otherwise, for me, Christ would not have gone through such great lengths of violence and bloodshed in place of us, so that we ourselves would not have to go through that terrible of an experience.  So for me, the salvation is "from" that lake of fire.

Not just saving us "from" but saving us "for" is also another facet of this subject as well.  As Noah entered the ark and was saved from the destructive nature of life on earth, we to, when we enter into Christ are then saved not only "from" the destructive forces at work in this life, but we are saved "for" the birthing of a new life in a new realm.  Just again as Noah and his family was saved . . .he was set aside "for" the regeneration of the earth "after" the destruction of the flood.

To the topic of covenants . . .for me, a covenant is not just a promise from one party to another.  Nor is it something given to an entire nation . . .but a covenant is representative.  It's like when our president sets down with the leader of another nation . . .and if that other leader verbally offends our president, they've verbally offended the nation he represents.

Yes, the covenant was between God and Abraham . . .but it affected ALL the offspring that came "through" Abraham as well.  It was a promise between God and one man, but that one man was representative to all men and women that would later be birthed through that one man.  God and Adam lived in a covenant relationship . . .Adam broke his end of the bargain and God reestablished it through Abraham and manifested that through Christ.

To the subject of what applies to Jews and what applies to Gentiles . . .a Jew can not be a Gentile physically, but a Gentile can "become" a Jew.  It's all about the circumcision . .which again, began with Abraham.  But the key for us to see here is that everything is spiritual and even though "physcially" I'm not a Jew . . .Spiritually, all who call on the name of the Lord become "grafted" into the spiritual Jewish family.  To men, Jews are those that are linked by blood to Abraham . . .To God, a Jew is a man who has entered into this covenant of promise with God.  The Old covenant is no longer in effect, but the New has replaced the Old.  The Old was based on the activity of men, the New is based on the rest of the Christ.  Paul even states that we all are spiritually Jews . . circumcised by the same spirit of God.

Does this get us into the danger of "replacement theology" though?

I guess my real question is that, if all believers become part of spiritual Israel, and all Israel is to be saved, then does that weaken the case for UR? If Jesus came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, then where does that leave everyone else?

[Nathan]

For me, there's no question that we ALL are lost sheep . . .it's not about whether or not all are being brought back into the fold, it's about the process through which we go that brings us into the fold.  Through Christ we forego the lake of fire in the end because we've entered into the finished works of Christ before hand . . .so we're redeemed by the blood, not by the lake of fire.  We  are returned into the fold through Christ the shepherd.

If we have NOT made a conscious choice, redemption is still inevidible, but it's after the lake has been applied . . .or after we've been applied to the lake, how ever you choose to state it, we are returned to the fold either way, it's just that one is by the Father (lake of fire) the other is through the finished work of the Son.

Another piece to this for me is, the importance of being born again is not just about what may or may not happen to "me", but it's about what may or may not happen "through" me.  Being saved out of sin is to bring restoration of order within me . .realigning spirit and soul, replacing their priority to the orignal order of God.  In doing so, the act of salvation ushers me into a whole different arena where God begins birthing invisible things, through me, into this natural state.  So again, it's not just about me side-stepping the lake of fire, but it's also, if not even "more" about God manifesting his nature through me into others . . .so that we reproduce after our own kind . . .which as Paul then states, it's no longer "I" but Christ in me.

[legoman]

For me . .first, the title of the thread . . .saved from what?  I've stated this before and I'll state it again . . .this place of redemption that ungodly men will have to experience in order to be purged, cleansed and purified before entering into the fulness of the kingdom, it "must" be a pretty violent experience otherwise, for me, Christ would not have gone through such great lengths of violence and bloodshed in place of us, so that we ourselves would not have to go through that terrible of an experience.  So for me, the salvation is "from" that lake of fire.

RE: 'it "must" be a pretty violent experience'

Doesn't that sound a little bit like the experience we go through in this world?

Anyone ever wonder if we are the ones who are in the lake of fire right now!?  ie. the elect have already been raised and are reigning with Christ, and the rest of us are in the lake of fire - and the lake of fire is our very existence in this world?  I know this is way out there and probably not supported by scripture so much but I wonder sometimes.

Peace...

[CHB]

Hi All,

Don't you think God is saving us "for" something instead of from something?  To me that makes more sense. For by Him and For Him were all things created. (Heb. 2:10) For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

CHB 

[CHB]

For me . .first, the title of the thread . . .saved from what?  I've stated this before and I'll state it again . . .this place of redemption that ungodly men will have to experience in order to be purged, cleansed and purified before entering into the fulness of the kingdom, it "must" be a pretty violent experience otherwise, for me, Christ would not have gone through such great lengths of violence and bloodshed in place of us, so that we ourselves would not have to go through that terrible of an experience.  So for me, the salvation is "from" that lake of fire.

RE: 'it "must" be a pretty violent experience'

Doesn't that sound a little bit like the experience we go through in this world?

Anyone ever wonder if we are the ones who are in the lake of fire right now!?  ie. the elect have already been raised and are reigning with Christ, and the rest of us are in the lake of fire - and the lake of fire is our very existence in this world?  I know this is way out there and probably not supported by scripture so much but I wonder sometimes.

Peace...

legoman,

I have thought these very same things. It would account for all the verses that speak of this generation and Christ bringing the saints with him. I believe this life is the lake of fire, if not it, at least a part of it.

We are all over the place aren't we? Well, doesn't it all tie in together?

CHB

[legoman]

CHB,

Yes it is interesting.

In most ways I don't think this life is the lake of fire, otherwise when did the GWT judgement occur?  When did everyone bow before Christ?  etc. 

Not that I don't see us being judged in the here and now (ie. judgment begins with the house of God) - believers judged now, non-believers judged later etc.  We definitely go through trials by fire in this life, but I don't think that this world is the lake of fire (99% sure).

Surely God will have a way of preaching the word and the good news to those in the lake of fire.  Will it be done directly through the saints and Christ, or more subtly?

It does make me wonder what will the lake of fire be like.  Maybe it will be just another version of this world, except now those in it will see all the ramifications of their actions - and this will cause great shame and repentance.  Or perhaps it will be like a 3D video of our whole life played back before us, where we see everything we did and how we had sinned and hurt people in our own arrogance - again causing great shame and repentance.

But the really interesting scenario would be if the lake of fire was just another version of this same world, and the inhabitants of that world didn't realize they were in the lake of fire - they just thought they were living their life!  They would live on until they realized their predicament and humbled themself to come to Christ.

Either way we will be humbled, shamed, and eventually repent. 

But does every knee bow before or after that experience?  I don't know...

[martincisneros]

Martin, the thing is, and what I have been trying to say is. Why do we need a Covenant?

A relationship with the Christ of the Bible is only through the Covenant of His Blood, as even mentioned in Ephesians and Colossians if those are the only books of the New Testament you'll acknowledge of all of the books that I'll mention.  Every reference to the Blood is to that Covenant and we're saved by the Blood ALONE: Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 2:13, Colossians 1:20, etc.  I guess you've never enjoyed what Hebrews talks about with having your soul anchored with that Covenant to where you cannot be defeated and you will not quit because you have it in the writing of His Blood.  You'll not have world overcoming faith in any kind of sense of the faith of the Kingdom that'll produce a hundredfold and beyond without the Covenant.  Perhaps you've never understood what a Covenant fully is if all you see are the rules and aren't able to distinguish between Mosaic law and God's saving Covenant through Abraham and Christ.  A really good book to read would be The Blood Covenant by H. Clay Trumbull. 

It's like having a marriage license.  I've been premaritally promiscuous before and I've been married before she died, and I definitely know the difference in the sanctity of the relationship, the blessing and security that you can't know in any other way on any other terms and with any other philosophy.  I may have only had it for one day, but I do know the difference.  There is no promise of the New Testament that's not the Covenant of Abraham and Christ.  There is no Biblical UR without that Covenant.  Try to separate it from that Covenant and you may come up with a New Age philosophy, but it won't be the UR of the Scriptures. 

Every drop of that New Testament, [since you seem to not like the word covenant,] is in Blood.  Not a page and not a line of it isn't Blood soaked with God's bond, God's integrity.  He'd cease to exist if any of it didn't happen in the lives of those genuinely standing on it and being conformed to the image of Christ Jesus.  He's sworn by Himself because there has been no one greater to swear by that so shall Abraham's seed be, and as Paul said in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and elsewhere, that's both a Jew and Gentile seed.  No condemnation and no separation is only by that Covenant.  That doesn't cheapen the no condemnation and the no separation.  That makes it all the more precious, potent, and intimate in a way that nothing else can.  He must heal the nations in our time because the Blood is crying out.  And the prayers and offerings of a number of us have become a memorial, or as the book of Revelation calls it, a pillar in His Temple before Him just as they did in the life of Cornelius.

And as far as Doc's question, going back to Paul's illustration in Romans of the branches that have been broken off.  They're still broken off and we're the vine and branches all of this time.  It's dispensationalism that'll try to indicate that God has a separate covenant with those that are broken off, but the Scriptures acknowledge no such thing.  It says they'll eventually be grafted back in.  As far as any kind of replacement theology, well...  We have totally replaced Israel in the time being.  But we're not regrafted into them.  They're regrafted into us.  Israel has no promise of a millenium.  Only the Church does because the millenium is the Global conquest of the Gospel in the earth.  Israel's been restored for no other reason and no other purpose than the Scriptures simply saying that the Kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our God and of His Christ and this is rectifying an issue over His own Holy Name's sake as He says about it in the Old Testament, and not because He's restoring the Mosaic Law to the shame of [and competition against] the Blood of Christ.  The only Blood acceptable to that Abrahamic Covenant is the Blood of Christ and the Blood of the saints that have died since then.

There's a lot of stuff that I said recently on the book of Revelation board that wasn't understood and that was even dismissed by some because they've never heard the cries of the Blood of Christ in our generation.  The cries of the world for Barabbas are louder to them than the cries of the Blood of Christ.  If you could hear that Blood at the screaming point now, you'd know that there is absolutely no other way and no other alternative than for the Church to triumph in history.  The Blood of Christ is the loudest thing in the heavens and earth right now and I'm surprised that I'm one of the few that can actually hear it.  And it's definitely saying much better things than the blood of Abel.  That Blood knows nothing else and no other way than for His Church to be glorious in these centuries in fulfillment of the prayer in John 17.

God's not saving all of Creation because He's too nice or too wise or because man's too finite, too good or whatever.  It's because nothing else will answer the Blood.  UR is the victory of God through Abraham's Seed at the Cross.  There is no other Biblical definition of the Biblical Universal Restoration.  Same thing with everything else I believe.  Postmillenialism is the victory of God through Abraham's Seed at the Cross.  Every other thing that I believe is the exact same equation: the victory of God through Abraham's Seed at the Cross, whether the health and prosperity message, God's Blood sworn oath to the animals in Hosea 2:18, etc.  The strength of the Cross is that Abrahamic Covenant.  Abraham saw His Day and rejoiced.  God wasn't breaking His Word to that old man. 

Every word that comes out of your mouth or mine ought to carry the same weight that we'd rather die than lie and we'll do anything up to and including death to keep our word.  I don't care what it's about and to whom.  If you give your word to somebody about something, from that they should know who you are, rather than what you meant to say.  Always say what you mean when you're giving your word to someone because all else proceeds from evil.  Most Bible students have zero idea what the Bible's saying when it talks about being upheld for one's integrity 'cause they're so leery of anything self righteous and can't understand the Biblical principle that if you get that serious about your word, then God will get that serious about your word and do His best to see to it that your word comes to pass.  Your word can be as precious to God as His own.  But God winds up hearing what most people, including most Christians, say everyday and has to just roll His eyes thinking "whatever..."

And when you give your word about something, think before you speak and offer no additional commentary on what you'd previously said with a "now what I really meant" in a way that tries to take any part of the implications back.  If you shot your mouth off without considering the context and clarity of your words and all of their potential ramifications, and what you said can be construed to mean your very last penny, then bless God, give it to 'em including the shirt off of your back, as Jesus said.  (He'll protect your hundredfold harvest.)  Go that second mile.  And even if you were abundantly clear about one mile only, be willing to go two to five or ten.  One of the problems that many people have with covenants these days, and I'm not directing this at anyone, but sincerely when you're dealing with society, the mainstream or even the denominational Churches out there: the biggest problem they have with covenants is that they know that their own covenant is no good. 

The proliferation of gangs whether in their teens or business men and women that go rogue with organized crime has been because of this human need for a covenant that's unbreakable, beyond any immediate benefits of some kind of an emotional release with vandalism or an obscene profit with something being kept off of the books.  And in that kind of an environment, for a season, they have that very thing where they're in it together, no one's a traitor but knows exactly what the others are intent upon doing, and they generally know what they're agreed upon, etc.  In other words, because we weren't covenant keepers in the Church, the world's gone where they could find or where they've thought they could find that kind of bond, fidelity, and camaraderie. 

A lot of this starts with parents whose word is absolutely no good to their kids.  They'll promise something, but something will come up or they won't feel the same way about doing it, so they'll set everything else as priority over their having given their word.  So those kids are like, "if mom and dad don't keep their word, then the Bible's gotta be a myth 'cause if those that I can see don't keep their word, then why should I believe there's Anyone out there that I can't see that keeps His??"  Trash in, trash out.  Aside from blatant divine intervention, few ever rise above the level of the character of their parents.  Keep a kid around lies and particularly with the excuse of lies to get ahead or because I'm older than you, or for self preservation, then all they'll raise are total liars that'll kill you and steal all you have as look at you.  If you don't magnify your word above your name, then neither will they.

I don't know if there's ever a time that I ever say anything where I'm not fully conscious that if I say that, I've just trapped myself and there won't be any way out ever.  If you never come to that place of being a Psalm 15:4 man or woman where you swear to your own hurt and don't ever change, then that covenant of the Blood of Christ that He died for will never ever take on the weight and the level of the supernatural in your life that you could have had in this life; that you could have had all of this time.