"Saved" from what?

[NinjaWizards777]

The last few days of reading my book (Hope Beyond Hell) and just thinking in general, and Ive been really confused on what "salvation" really is.

If everyone is already "saved" through Christ...why does Paul bother to mention things like this:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved"

Saved? Saved from what? Doesnt everyone still have to "face judgment" (2 Corinitians 5:10) anyway? What does confessing and all that "holy spirit", "turning to God" mumbo jumbo redeem us from if were already "redeemed" (from what I still dont really know)

[martincisneros]

He's our Saviour for our spirit, soul, body, finances, social lives, the Creation around us, the nations, the rest of world history, and our priorities.  He's firmly committed to keeping all of the above from perishing and to give each area life and that more abundantly!  Salvation is the conformity of absolutely everything in our lives and everything we know and don't know anything about to Himself.  Not a single detail will be left out if we'll walk out the Written Word by faith.

[NinjaWizards777]

so as believers in THIS life, we are not saved from anything in the NEXT life(judgment day...hell...lake of fire...blablabla)? were just saved from the "bad things" of this life

in other words...well face just as much "judgment" and lake of fire pain/torment as everyone else? what?

Im not sure how that makes sense...

[Zeek]

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.


Psa 44:7  But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and hast put them to shame that hated us.

Psa 83:17  Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:

Psa 109:29  Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.

Rom 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

[Zeek]

1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Rev 3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

[70sevens]

Salvation from the sin.
We are born sinners, but we do not truly realize that,
even though some say they are sinners superficially through learning at the Church.

Jesus is the Saviour.
However, Jesus is hidden to the eyes of men until one realizes himself as sinner.
When a man realizes that, he has been leading his life without God, the sinner,
and as a result, he encountered total emptiness of his life,
then he might repent from the bottom of his heart,
saying like this as a prodigal son,
"I have sinned in front of God, I want to go back to thee, God!"

Then God will send him Jesus, the Saviour.
In other words, only this time he will be able to see true Jesus.
Jesus will save him working for some years,
and at last by giving him Holy Spirit to be one with him.

Once he became one with God by Holy Spirit, all his life will be with God. 
In him the Christ, God, will live.
He now is saved from the sin which is the separation from God.
He became sinless.

Many people here push forward the salvation in the future, i.e., afterlife.
However, Jesus is the Saviour now here in this life, not afterlife.

As I said, true Jesus is hidden to the eyes of non-repented people.
Jesus that they are discussing now is not true Jesus who is to save them in this life.
No wonder, they are talking about the salvation of afterlife, which is too late.

God bless.

[legoman]

The last few days of reading my book (Hope Beyond Hell) and just thinking in general, and Ive been really confused on what "salvation" really is.

If everyone is already "saved" through Christ...why does Paul bother to mention things like this:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved"

Saved? Saved from what? Doesnt everyone still have to "face judgment" (2 Corinitians 5:10) anyway? What does confessing and all that "holy spirit", "turning to God" mumbo jumbo redeem us from if were already "redeemed" (from what I still dont really know)

We are saved from sin and the wages of sin, which is death.  We are saved from our carnal self.

Are all saved right now?  I don't think so.

Are any saved right now?  This is where the debate is - and in a certain sense again I don't think so.

But from God's point of view we all will be saved.  From our point of view its a question of when will that happen.

You mentioned judgment - everyone will have to go through judgment.  Again the question is when.  Some go through judgment now in this life.  Others will get their judgment at the Great White Throne.  Everyone will be judged and chastened and scourged.  And when we are judged/chastened/scourged, we learn.  We learn how to be good - we learn how to be righteous.

Isaiah 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
       in the morning my spirit longs for you.
       When your judgments come upon the earth,
       the people of the world learn righteousness.

See what that is saying?  God's judgment cause people to learn righteousness!  That is a good thing, because when one finally knows what righteousness is, they will be righteous, and they will be saved.

God uses judgment to save us, to save everyone!  Believers get their judgment (trial by fire) in this life.  Non-believers will become believers when they get their judgment (lake of fire) in the next life.

Its the same plan for everyone just on different time scales.  God saves everyone the same way!  Through fire, through judgment, through Christ - everyone comes to God the same way.  And when complete we will then all be saved from our sins.

Read Ray Smith's Lake of Fire series.  He gets into all this in great detail.

Peace...

[Zeek]

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jn 5:17  All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

1Jn 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

[legoman]

so as believers in THIS life, we are not saved from anything in the NEXT life(judgment day...hell...lake of fire...blablabla)? were just saved from the "bad things" of this life

in other words...well face just as much "judgment" and lake of fire pain/torment as everyone else? what?

Im not sure how that makes sense...

Read 1 Peter 4:12 where it says we will suffer for being a believer.  That is part of our judgment now in this life.  Everyone will be judged.  If we are a son of God, we will be chastened and scourged so that we will learn.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Judgment begins with the House of God!  That's us, you, me, we, believers in the true Christ, the savior of the world.  We are the first to be judged!

Its part of the process of who we are supposed to become. 

God is creating us to be in His image, and (thank God) He's not finished yet!

Perhaps there is this mindset that judgment is a BAD THING.  NOT TRUE. This is just left-over brainwashing from our eternal torment indoctrination.  Judgment is a good thing and is how humanity will be made into God's image.  Now some of the scourging and chastening we go through may not seem good at the time, but when all is said and done, we will realize this life was just a vapor and was all necessary so we could become what are supposed to become.

Make sense?

[Zeek]

There imo, is a fire that tries one's faith,

and a fire that is for those who refuse to live by faith


Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

[Zeek]

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Rom 3:16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:

Rom 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

1Co 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Php 3:19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

[sparrow]

God is trying to show us a way.
The way of LOVE.

Every single thing in life....
You can operate out of LOVE
or NON-LOVE.

No matter the circumstances.
No matter the outcome.

God is "saving" you, when you operate out of LOVE.

We ALL will have our part in the lake of fire.
HERE in this life.
and in the next.

It is not something to fear.
It is merely God's loving instruction.
God lovingly, (As the good Father that He is) pointing out our mis-steps.

The fire REFINES.
It doesn't destroy.

We should actually look FORWARD to this. not fear it as so many do.

So much negativity and sorrowful things happen because of humans not acting out of love.
It ALL trickles down.
The rain falls on all.
But only for a season.

God is "saving" you from a lot of things....
The times when you operate out of LOVE... you understand the things He is saving you from.

I hope this made sense.

:icon_flower:

[Zeek]

Heb 10:27  There remains nothing but a certain awful expectation of judgement, and the fury of a fire which before long will devour the enemies of the truth.

[Zeek]

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



fearful

G5398
φοβερός
phoberos
fob-er-os'
From G5401; frightful, that is, (objectively) formidable: - fearful, terrible.

[sparrow]

Sorry Zeek...

I am not fearful.

I am in AWE of God.

But perfect love casts out ALL fear.
God IS PERFECT LOVE.

:icon_flower:  :happy3:  :icon_flower:

He who the son has set free, is free indeed.

I am free from fear when it comes to God, now.
He loves me.
and I have no reason to fear.

peace.

[Zeek]

Amen

Psa 1:1  Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Psa 1:2  But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psa 1:3  And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.




Psa 5:4  For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psa 5:5  The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psa 5:6  Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 5:7  But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

Psa 5:8  Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.

Psa 5:9  For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

Psa 5:10  Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

Psa 5:11  But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

Psa 5:12  For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

[Doc]

The last few days of reading my book (Hope Beyond Hell) and just thinking in general, and Ive been really confused on what "salvation" really is.

If everyone is already "saved" through Christ...why does Paul bother to mention things like this:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved"

Saved? Saved from what? Doesnt everyone still have to "face judgment" (2 Corinitians 5:10) anyway? What does confessing and all that "holy spirit", "turning to God" mumbo jumbo redeem us from if were already "redeemed" (from what I still dont really know)

We are saved from sin and the wages of sin, which is death.  We are saved from our carnal self.

Are all saved right now?  I don't think so.

Are any saved right now?  This is where the debate is - and in a certain sense again I don't think so.

But from God's point of view we all will be saved.  From our point of view its a question of when will that happen.

You mentioned judgment - everyone will have to go through judgment.  Again the question is when.  Some go through judgment now in this life.  Others will get their judgment at the Great White Throne.  Everyone will be judged and chastened and scourged.  And when we are judged/chastened/scourged, we learn.  We learn how to be good - we learn how to be righteous.

Isaiah 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
       in the morning my spirit longs for you.
       When your judgments come upon the earth,
       the people of the world learn righteousness.

See what that is saying?  God's judgment cause people to learn righteousness!  That is a good thing, because when one finally knows what righteousness is, they will be righteous, and they will be saved.

God uses judgment to save us, to save everyone!  Believers get their judgment (trial by fire) in this life.  Non-believers will become believers when they get their judgment (lake of fire) in the next life.

Its the same plan for everyone just on different time scales.  God saves everyone the same way!  Through fire, through judgment, through Christ - everyone comes to God the same way.  And when complete we will then all be saved from our sins.

Read Ray Smith's Lake of Fire series.  He gets into all this in great detail.

Peace...

Yep. All must go back to God, but he must prepare us to be received back. Pay now, or pay later.

[gregoryfl]

To the one who fears, to him God will be fearsome and frightening.

To the one who loves, to him God will be endearing and awe-inspiring.

Thus agrees the prophet Isaiah who wrote:

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid.
Trembling has seized the godless ones.
Who among us can live with the devouring fire?
Who among us can live with everlasting burning?

Isa 33:15 He who walks righteously,
and speaks blamelessly;
He who despises the gain of oppressions,
who gestures with his hands, refusing to take a bribe,
who stops his ears from hearing of blood,
and shuts his eyes from looking at evil—

Ron

[CHB]

The last few days of reading my book (Hope Beyond Hell) and just thinking in general, and Ive been really confused on what "salvation" really is.

If everyone is already "saved" through Christ...why does Paul bother to mention things like this:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved"

Saved? Saved from what? Doesnt everyone still have to "face judgment" (2 Corinitians 5:10) anyway? What does confessing and all that "holy spirit", "turning to God" mumbo jumbo redeem us from if were already "redeemed" (from what I still dont really know)

This is the way I understand this and I could be wrong.

The verse you have above is while Paul is preaching New Covenant teaching. New Covenant requires some rules and regulations. Later on Paul came to see that this wasn't necessary.

I think the answer to the whole thing is KNOWLEDGE, not that I know any thing but the Isarelites thought they had to keep all these Laws in order to be saved. The apostles thought that the Israelites had to do certain things to be saved even after Christ was crucified. Now I believe all these things was in the plan of God BUT if you notice, Paul said "the MYSTERY had been hid from man since before the foundation of the world". What was that Mystery? I believe it was God's intention that all WERE SAVED when he created Adam, without any rules or regulations, man just couldn't see it and some still can't. God brought and is bringing each of us through the wilderness before he shows us the light. What did Christ save us from? I think he saved us from this FLESH.

CHB

[ducktapehero]

I'm sorry if I sound stupid but I'm new to this. Please have patience with me. Also, please answer very simply, I can be a bit dull sometime.  :winkgrin:

So unbelievers will be judged after they die? I'm assuming this is a temporary punishment. And if this IS the case, what kind of punishment will this be? Or do we not know?

Again, I'm sure these are dumb questions. I don't know anything about universalism but I do know I'm starting to consider it.

[Zeek]

Later on, after the mystery was revealed, Paul continued to "warn" and preach obedience, and continued "walking" in faith; so as to not lose one's reward.    

Col 1:28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:29  Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Col 2:7  Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:18  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Col 3:2  Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Col 3:4  When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Col 3:5  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col 3:19  Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Col 3:20  Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

Col 3:21  Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Col 3:22  Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

Col 3:23  And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Col 3:24  Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Col 3:25  But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Col 1:9  For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Col 1:10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[sven]

Saved? Saved from what?

saved from literal eternal death for example

some people would't consider eternal death as a punishment, but this is not true at all.

many people fear death, the end of existence, few people even fear it more than hell.

it there would be a hell, even it would be endless, there still could be hope that you might get out one day

but death leaves no hope, there could be no darker darkness than the blackness of ultimate and eternal death, a state of utterly non-being, total annihilation.

this thought is indeed horrible for many, though not for all, it's strange that modern Christianity doesn't consider death something worth to be saved from. It seems they deny death being an enemy, the even deny that someting like death exists when they tell this satanic lie that men has an immortal soul, when they deny death is it clear that Jesus must have came to save people from their invented hell of which the Prophets said no word. Sheol is no infernal netherworld of fiery torment or conscious suffering according to the Bible.

1 Corinthians 15:29-32

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

for me it is obvious that Paul thought if there is no ressurection of the dead, there will be nothing than death after once died, there is not the slighest hint Paul ever thought of as if Jesus hadn't died and rose from the dead they would go to a place of endless woe.

[WhiteWings]

I'm sorry if I sound stupid but I'm new to this. Please have patience with me. Also, please answer very simply, I can be a bit dull sometime.  :winkgrin:

So unbelievers will be judged after they die? I'm assuming this is a temporary punishment. And if this IS the case, what kind of punishment will this be? Or do we not know?

Again, I'm sure these are dumb questions. I don't know anything about universalism but I do know I'm starting to consider it.

Don't worry about dumb questions. You are a long way from out-dumbing my questions  :laughing7:
There are different opinions on this site regarding when the punishment takes places.
But many verses clearly show that Jesus came to save 100% of humanity an succeeds at that task.
That automaticly means punishment (actually 'teaching') can't be endless. Unless you call endless misery saved.

Ermmm, I forgot the advertising for my signature :winkgrin:
The 3 verses in my signature are my favorites. I think they are very powerful. Especially as a group.

[NinjaWizards777]

I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

[Doc]

I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.