Scriptures about eternal punishment (hell?)

[Sage]

I understand I listed a lot, but I couldn't find any answers to them. Please help.


The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their

Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."


Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.



Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.


Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...


Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.


Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:47-48
t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.


2 Thessalonians 1:9
They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...


Jude 1:7
[J]ust as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire

[WhiteWings]

I understand I listed a lot, but I couldn't find any answers to them. Please help.

Hi Sage,
I'm no Bible scholar but I'm sure others will correct me where I've gone wrong....
First I want to recomment you to read Youngs and Rotherham Bible versions. They can be found online for free.
All the "for ever" and "eternal" in your verses mean "age-during"
IMO fire in the Bible very often is about spiritual fire.
I won't polute your thread with it but I have many verses that link fire with the essence of God. And/or a purifying agent.
(not torture)
I can post the verses if you want.

The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their

Hades is the grave. Not the classic hell with flames.

Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

About this verse are different UR opinions:
a] It means "for ever -> life" and "for an age -> correction" => has to do with grammar
b] People are split up into a wicked and saint group for a limited time. After that they join and go as 1 big group in timeless eternity.

Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...

Time limited events.

Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

See Daniel 12:2

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:47-48
t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Gehanna/valley of Hinnom 70AD. The garbage dump where the Romans burned all killed Jews after the siege/war of Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...

Very short version:
Basicly this speaks about a limited teaching process (not torture) where Jesus and his angels constantly check if you learned from the teaching.

Jude 1:7
[J]ust as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire

Again age during fire. The cities no longer burn. + God promises to restore the cities.

[Sage]

I understand I listed a lot, but I couldn't find any answers to them. Please help.

Hi Sage,
I'm no Bible scholar but I'm sure others will correct me where I've gone wrong....
First I want to recomment you to read Youngs and Rotherham Bible versions. They can be found online for free.
All the "for ever" and "eternal" in your verses mean "age-during"
IMO fire in the Bible very often is about spiritual fire.
I won't polute your thread with it but I have many verses that link fire with the essence of God. And/or a purifying agent.
(not torture)
I can post the verses if you want

Thank you, WhiteWings. I have read some about god being a consuming fire (hebrews 12:29). Is this what your talking about?

[WhiteWings]

Hi Sage,

Below a list of verses I've collected. I think/hope none are out of conext.

Acts 7:30  And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
1 Chronicles 21:26  And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.
1 Corinthians 3:13  .... for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Deuteronomy 4:24  For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Ezekiel 1:27  And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, ....  saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about ....
Genesis 15:17  ....  behold a smoking furnace (God), and a burning lamp (God) that passed between those pieces (cut up sacrificial animals).
Hebrews 1:7  And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 12:29   For our God is a consuming fire
Isaiah 4:4  .... and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Isaiah 4:5  ....  a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
James 3:5  Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Judges 6:21  Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
Luke 3:16  ....  he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Þ Baptism is a positive act.
Malachi 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3  And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mark 9:49-50  or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
Matthew 3:11  .... whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
2 Kings 6:17  And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
1 Peter 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried (=tested) with fire ....
1 Peter 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Psalm 18:8  There went up a smoke out of his (God) nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psalm 66:10-12  .... thou hast tried us, as silver is tried (=tested) .... we went through fire and through water: but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.
Psalm 104:4  Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Romans 12:20  Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him (=love); if he thirst, give him drink (=love): for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire (=love) on his head.

[legoman]

Hi Sage,

All of these verses and more are covered in many articles on this site and others.  I would take a look through the Scholar's Corner section on the main page of tentmaker.org - there is a wealth of information there.

However the best place I have seen these verses discussed (especially the ones about eternal torment, fire not quenched, undying worms, etc.) would be on Ray Smith's bible-truth's page.  His Lake of Fire Series covers ALOT.

Check out the hell sections for some of the verses you mentioned:
Hell(sheol-grave) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html
Hell(sheol-hell) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-B.html
Hell(origins) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html
Hell(hoax) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D1.htm
Hell(tophet) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D2.htm
Hell(sermon on the mount) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm
Hell(Gehenna) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm
Hell(Second Death) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

If you want to understand all this, be prepared to do ALOT of reading!  :bigGrin:  I recommend reading the whole series.

Have fun and ask questions here!

Peace,
Legoman

[legoman]

I understand I listed a lot, but I couldn't find any answers to them. Please help.

I think WW gave you a quick reply on most of these verses.  One of the key things to understand is that the word "eternal/everlasting/forever" in the bible should almost never have been translated that way.  Instead it should have been translated as "eonian" or "age-lasting/age-abiding" or "pertaining to the ages".  There are many articles that go into that indepth.

For example this verse:

Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Is really talking about eonian shame and eonian life.  Both are for a limited duration.  Some will get punishment for the eons - it will be limited duration.  Some will get life for the eons - it is also speaking of a specific duration.  Don't confuse this to mean that the "life" will then end.  The "eonian" life will end, but life itself will carry on because we will have been made immortal at that point.  Read 1 Cor 15.


Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

Short explanation:

"Unquenched fire" just means a fire that cannot be put out.  It will not go out until it burns out naturally.  Many forest fires are unquenchable.  Yet no forest fire is eternal.  It simply means it continues burning until it has consumed all that it was meant to burn.

The "worms not dying" refers to the grave.  Its not talking about some sort of "eternal worm".  When we die we become worm-food.  But we don't feel a thing because we are dead!  Isa 66:24 is talking about a large volume of dead fleshly bodies.  The worms don't die out because there is always more bodies to consume.  Specifically this ties into gehenna - where bodies were burned up.  The worms didn't die because there was a steady stream of bodies.  By the way the literal place of gehenna (valley of hinnom) is now a nice grassy valley.  No more "eternal" fire there, although there are still probably some worms in the soil! :bigGrin:


Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

This is talking about spiritually circumcising ourself.  We must cut out the bad parts of our heart.

Peace...

[WhiteWings]

All of these verses and more are covered in many articles on this site and others.  I would take a look through the Scholar's Corner section on the main page of tentmaker.org - there is a wealth of information there.
............
However the best place I have seen these verses discussed (especially the ones about eternal torment, fire not quenched, undying worms, etc.) would be on Ray Smith's bible-truth's page.  His Lake of Fire Series covers ALOT.

Yeah Ray is a real firefighter  :laughing7:
But still I would recomment starting with: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/HansonsFourWorks.pdf
It gives a good explanation of the whole UR belief.
Personally I think you should start with Hanson because Ray (sometimes) assumes you understand what certain things without explaining them.
So I would say: Hanson to understand the whole UR area quickly. And then Ray for a lot deeper digging into hell  :laughing7:

Just my few corrupted  :2c:

[legoman]

All of these verses and more are covered in many articles on this site and others.  I would take a look through the Scholar's Corner section on the main page of tentmaker.org - there is a wealth of information there.
............
However the best place I have seen these verses discussed (especially the ones about eternal torment, fire not quenched, undying worms, etc.) would be on Ray Smith's bible-truth's page.  His Lake of Fire Series covers ALOT.

Yeah Ray is a real firefighter  :laughing7:
But still I would recomment starting with: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/HansonsFourWorks.pdf
It gives a good explanation of the whole UR belief.
Personally I think you should start with Hanson because Ray (sometimes) assumes you understand what certain things without explaining them.
So I would say: Hanson to understand the whole UR area quickly. And then Ray for a lot deeper digging into hell  :laughing7:

Just my few corrupted  :2c:

Yes good points.  I agree Ray is maybe not the best "beginner intro", but He definitely gets into the meat.

Another good site I found recently was this one:

http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm

This is more beginner friendly yet still gets into some of the meat.

Peace

[WhiteWings]

Don't confuse this to mean that the "life" will then end.  The "eonian" life will end, but life itself will carry on because we will have been made immortal at that point.  Read 1 Cor 15.

I learned that here quite a while ago. Revelation is not the end of the Bible. 1 Cor is...
You will figure it out soon enough so I'll just say it. I'm sorta an Atheist standing at teh door of church and secretly listening to the teachings.... :happy3:
Anyway I went to an absolute beginners study group and that was something new to even the teachers. (none of them even remotely fire preachers I have to add)
I think this is what legoman points you to:


Read again Rev.22:14-15 and you will see that those who are outside the gate are those who are under Gods judgment and that if they keep His commandments have the right to the tree of life and may ENTER IN THOUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Revelation 22:14-15  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22: 

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
 
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal 

In Revelation 20-22, we have: 

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)" 

[Molly]

Don't confuse this to mean that the "life" will then end.  The "eonian" life will end, but life itself will carry on because we will have been made immortal at that point.  Read 1 Cor 15.

I learned that here quite a while ago. Revelation is not the end of the Bible. 1 Cor is...
You will figure it out soon enough so I'll just say it. I'm sorta an Atheist standing at teh door of church and secretly listening to the teachings.... :happy3:
Anyway I went to an absolute beginners study group and that was something new to even the teachers. (none of them even remotely fire preachers I have to add)
I think this is what legoman points you to:


Read again Rev.22:14-15 and you will see that those who are outside the gate are those who are under Gods judgment and that if they keep His commandments have the right to the tree of life and may ENTER IN THOUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Revelation 22:14-15  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22: 

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
 
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal 

In Revelation 20-22, we have: 

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)" 

I could see where the 1Cor 15 experience could happen first to a firstfruits company, the sons of God.  Therefore, you would have an overlap with some inside the city and some outside.  Those inside would be living the 1Cor 15 experience, otherwise how could they reign with Christ?  For them, there will be immortality as exemplified in the 1000 year reign.  The Melchizedek priesthood is based on the  premise of an eternal life.  The saints reigning with Christ are Melchizedek priests, like their brother.


20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

--1 Cor 15

[Sage]

Hi Sage,

All of these verses and more are covered in many articles on this site and others.  I would take a look through the Scholar's Corner section on the main page of tentmaker.org - there is a wealth of information there.

However the best place I have seen these verses discussed (especially the ones about eternal torment, fire not quenched, undying worms, etc.) would be on Ray Smith's bible-truth's page.  His Lake of Fire Series covers ALOT.

Check out the hell sections for some of the verses you mentioned:
Hell(sheol-grave) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html
Hell(sheol-hell) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-B.html
Hell(origins) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html
Hell(hoax) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D1.htm
Hell(tophet) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D2.htm
Hell(sermon on the mount) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm
Hell(Gehenna) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm
Hell(Second Death) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

If you want to understand all this, be prepared to do ALOT of reading!  :bigGrin:  I recommend reading the whole series.

Have fun and ask questions here!

Peace,
Legoman

Awesome. I look forward to reading all of these  :bigGrin:. I understand some of the whole sheol,gehenna/and tartarus. I was just giving these scriptures to get some insight. I'm constantly having "discussions" about scripture, and they keep throwing things like this at me. They refuse to acknowledge that King James really isn't all it's cracked up to be  :laughing7:.

But as my father says: Stop throwing your pearls before the swine. If you spoon feed people, they'll just spit it out and keep their mouth shut.

[legoman]

Awesome. I look forward to reading all of these  :bigGrin:. I understand some of the whole sheol,gehenna/and tartarus. I was just giving these scriptures to get some insight. I'm constantly having "discussions" about scripture, and they keep throwing things like this at me. They refuse to acknowledge that King James really isn't all it's cracked up to be  :laughing7:.

But as my father says: Stop throwing your pearls before the swine. If you spoon feed people, they'll just spit it out and keep their mouth shut.

Cool.  I know what you mean about the "discussions"!  :grin:  Good luck trying to explain this to anyone who doesn't have an open heart and mind...

Its quite hard to just take one verse and fully explain it without getting into every other verse in the bible that says similar things.  They will keep coming at you:  what about eternal hell?  what about the unforgivable sin?  why did Jesus die then?  what about heaven?  why should anyone just "get into heaven"?  what about free will?  what about God's wrath?  what is the lake of fire?  what about judgment?  etc.

If you want to explain one verse to someone, you also need to have an answer for all of the above questions.

The problem is you need to reorient your world view before you can understand this stuff - and that doesn't usually happen in a casual discussion with another person - unless they had already been thinking along those lines already.

And this is not even taking into account the "KJV-only" mindset.  If they can't get out of the KJV-only mindset, there is no hope for them.

Having said that, usually what we can do is plant a seed, and then hopefully watch it grow.

Legoman

[legoman]

Check out the hell sections for some of the verses you mentioned:
Hell(sheol-grave) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html
Hell(sheol-hell) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-B.html
Hell(origins) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html
Hell(hoax) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D1.htm
Hell(tophet) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D2.htm
Hell(sermon on the mount) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm
Hell(Gehenna) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm
Hell(Second Death) http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

Peace,
Legoman

Awesome. I look forward to reading all of these  :bigGrin:.

After you read those you will want to go back to the beginning of His Lake of Fire series and start reading at part 1.  Put it on your must-read list.  He has a way of just making everything plainly and bluntly obvious.  Quite enlightening.

Legoman

[WhiteWings]

Does Gary write stuff?
I've seen only very few articles from his hand. Most very short.
I guess he's more of a moviestar because he's quite busy on YouTube  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

After you read those you will want to go back to the beginning of His Lake of Fire series and start reading at part 1.  Put it on your must-read list.  He has a way of just making everything plainly and bluntly obvious.  Quite enlightening.

You forgot to put "blunt" in a large bold red font  :laughing7:
I have to admit I like that. He doesn't hide behind cryptic words he can twist lateron if he is debunked.  :thumbsup:

[legoman]

After you read those you will want to go back to the beginning of His Lake of Fire series and start reading at part 1.  Put it on your must-read list.  He has a way of just making everything plainly and bluntly obvious.  Quite enlightening.

You forgot to put "blunt" in a large bold red font  :laughing7:
I have to admit I like that. He doesn't hide behind cryptic words he can twist lateron if he is debunked.  :thumbsup:

LOL

Ray Smith presents the BLUNT TRUTH.

Film at eleven.

Is that better?   :winkgrin:

[legoman]

Does Gary write stuff?
I've seen only very few articles from his hand. Most very short.
I guess he's more of a moviestar because he's quite busy on YouTube  :laughing7:

Ah yes I completely forgot about youtube.  I think I watched most of Gary's stuff early on when I was discovering UR.  Also another guy, I think it was sozo2 had a good intro to UR debunking hell.

More recently I've listened to some of Dennis Caldwell's stuff on youtube - He is pretty good I think.  He points out a few subtle concepts that are not so obvious (at least they weren't to me initially).  His videos on Romans 5 and Matt 25:46 are the ones I've listened to so far.  These might be good to point to other UR newbies as a video is an easier format to digest information sometimes.

Legoman