Paul's under fire.

[IceDash]

http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/problem.htm


Wow.....read it and tell what you think?

How do you explain this:

  Paul declared he sinned because of the Law (this passage is really a piece of work), Romans 7:7-13.  James told us that's not so, James 1:13-14.

Paul told slaves to be obedient to their masters, Ephesians 6:5.  He re-enslaved Onesimus, Philemon 10-16.  This is in direct conflict to the law, which provides freedom from slavery, Deuteronomy 23:15-16, Jeremiah 34:13-17.  If Paul had been obedient to the Law, Onesimus would have been free.  But, as we see from Paul's action, he sent Onesimus back into bondage.  Yahweh's Law brings freedom; Paul's freedom brings bondage.

Paul pretends to be humble before Philemon, stating that he has written him with his own hand, and that if Philemon has been wronged, he (Paul) will repay (the debt), Philemon 1:19-20.  He then adds a cheap shot stating that Philemon "owes" him.  In other words, Paul clearly states that he will not say the very backhanded comment he does indeed say.  Paul's words stand on their head.

   Paul preached his own gospel, Romans 16:25, I Corinthians 15:1, Galatians 1:6-7, I Timothy 2:8, 3:10.

Paul 'cursed' those who preached any other gospel than his, Galatians 1:8-9.  Therefore he's cursing James, Peter, and John, whom he mocks in Galatians Chapter 2.

If you think this is blasphemy, think about this:  The Catholic Church is the organization that made the decisions about which books would or would not be included in (their) Bible.  The Catholic Church made this decision for you.  And, lo and behold, it's Pauline Doctrine that supports their existence, not the teachings of Yahushua.  This should send shivers up your spine.

Paul's writings are filled with far too many examples that conflict with Yahushua's teachings.  More importantly, where is Yahushua to be found in Paul's epistles?  Paul clearly denied Torah Law.  Yahushua clearly said the Law does not pass away.  Do you believe Paul or Yahushua?  If you have to think about this, you're in trouble. 



Wow, I don't see any love in this one but "fear" It's look like Sherry is saying "God is not love, he will destroy you if you follow paul"

Can anyone who understand the bible and history explain this problem?

[NinjaWizards777]

im not much a buff on the history of the church/bible (something I want to learn more about as of late). However I do understand enough to know that Pauls letters were just that...letters.


I dont think he EVER intended them to become hard ruled dogmas for the church to follow for the next several thousands of years.

This isnt to say he wasnt "inspired by God", but I think its important to recognize the Bible and its parts for what they are, in the contexts they were written in and the people they were written for.

with all that said its been a great long time since ive seen every word in the bible as just "every thought of God perfectly channeled through man". So I think of the bible as more of a "holy inspired" painting collaborated by differnt painters over the years to try and complete a view of a transcendent Creator. Therefore, I see it as to our benifit to learn from...not to take every word and scream about it being passed straight down from God to man as absolute truth.

im gonna get flack for this post but im okay with that lol :thumbsup:

[IceDash]

im not much a buff on the history of the church/bible (something I want to learn more about as of late). However I do understand enough to know that Pauls letters were just that...letters.


I dont think he EVER intended them to become hard ruled dogmas for the church to follow for the next several thousands of years.

This isnt to say he wasnt "inspired by God", but I think its important to recognize the Bible and its parts for what they are, in the contexts they were written in and the people they were written for.

with all that said its been a great long time since ive seen every word in the bible as just "every thought of God perfectly channeled through man". So I think of the bible as more of a "holy inspired" painting collaborated by differnt painters over the years to try and complete a view of a transcendent Creator. Therefore, I see it as to our benifit to learn from...not to take every word and scream about it being passed straight down from God to man as absolute truth.

im gonna get flack for this post but im okay with that lol :thumbsup:

Well everybody take the bible seriously because the bible itself said that "every scupture is God's breathe" something like that

[NinjaWizards777]

in the book of timothy...

but the funny thing about that is timothy itself was a letter that was also probably never intended to be viewed as "scripture" :laughing7:

[sven]

I once read a German article, "proofing" universalism only with quotes from the Psalms, I alread read pages from these people who say Paul was a false teacher, I think most of them believe in annihilation, I met once a woman in a forum who wrote a book about this topic, she told me that she believes whoever does not keep the Thora or is not circumsized will be annihilated.

[Paul Hazelwood]

  Paul declared he sinned because of the Law (this passage is really a piece of work), Romans 7:7-13. Can anyone who understand the bible and history explain this problem?

Not a problem, it's a play on wording.

What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of * coveting except the law said,  "You shall not be coveting."



He is saying that he didn't know that what he was doing was sin till the law told him it was.

So, the rub is, was the law actually a sin since he could not have known sin and then be subject to the wages of sin.   So then the law would be equal to a bad thing.


Kind of like the christian argument paradox for "a person who hasn't heard"   If indeed a man would go to heaven if he had never heard the name of Christ as opposed to a christian scouring the earth to find "those who haven't heard" only to damn some of them to hell by presenting them with that awareness and then of course they would have to choose.

Would the Christian be sinning by actually making someones life more difficult than if that Christian had just left well enough alone.

By the same manner thats what is being said here.

If we are ignorant of our sins, is the law then actually sin because it comes and makes us aware of what we are doing is wrong where up to that point we couldn't have known.   Are we held liable through ignorance?   If not, then the law can be portrayed as evil.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Some believe that Sin is an issue with how bad we are, but I have tended to see this passage and also where Paul talks about "doing what he hates" and it is because of sin a bit differently.


As in the passage of Romans 7 where Paul talks about not knowing the sin of coveting until he learned through the law that it was sin.  So then, was Paul not sinning if he didn't know it was a sin.

That takes on a whole spectrum of debate and thought.   Humans seem to make laws and place the responsibility on travelers to not be ignorant of that law and most times ignorance cannot be the deciding factor on whether you avoid the consequences of breaking that law.

Most of this I believe has to do with the law of reaping and sowing,  you do not have to understand that your doing something wrong to reap it's consequenses.

In fact, some times knowing what we have done wrong and HOW it affected someone else or our own lives is a step in a positive direction.

Coveting.....  I know people who covet things and covent things really strongly,  I wonder in meeting a few in the past if they realize why it is something thats better not to do.   People can work out the factors of how we might think of something and if we call it sin, then  the word "sin" often carries a connotation of evil towards us or a person.

When really not coveting can bring a lot of peace in ones life and even the lives of others.   So in that respect, the passage is saying, the law enables positive growth by revealing things that need to change, so thats why it cannot be viewed as sin and also why ignorance will not spare us from the concequenses of our actions and behavior.

[jabcat]

Good points PaulH, and some interesting things to consider brought out by all. 

Just a gentle reminder to all, that the default setting at TM DB is that scripture is inspired and trustworthy...no (blatant) textual criticism, i.e., "the Bible's not true, Paul was a deceiver, he spoke untruths", etc.  This leaves room for translational issues, obvious tamperings, and differences in understanding/interpretation.  All scriptures reconcile when accurately translated, properly divided, taken in context, and Spirit revealed. 

When I think something "doesn't make sense", it's usually my own level of understanding and knowledge that is lacking, not the scriptures.  My heart/mind is to be renewed, rather than me trying to "fix" the scriptures.  :thumbsup:

[NinjaWizards777]

I firmly believe scripture is both inspired and trustworthy...or i Wouldnt live my life by it

doesnt mean I view the bible in the same way everyone else does or that i believe its "innerrant" in whatever sense of the word you want to use

[jabcat]

I firmly believe scripture is both inspired and trustworthy...or i Wouldnt live my life by it

doesnt mean I view the bible in the same way everyone else does or that i believe its "innerrant" in whatever sense of the word you want to use

I'm glad you do see scripture as inspired and trustworthy.  However you view the Bible is between you and God, but again, the default setting for discussion at TM is 'no textual criticism' / 'respect for scripture', albeit with much room allowed for translation, understanding, interpretation, POV, etc., as earlier defined.  I didn't and don't use the term innerrant. 

Things are fine to move forward, many don't see or know some of the rules/expectations, so sometimes a reminder is helpful.

[WhiteWings]

What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of * coveting except the law said,  "You shall not be coveting."

He is saying that he didn't know that what he was doing was sin till the law told him it was.

Some never receive that law.
Some other verse states that those never heard of 'the laws' are judged by the laws written in their hearts. Bit vague but the way I read it it means they are judged by the moral standards of their own society....?

[WhiteWings]

I firmly believe scripture is both inspired and trustworthy...or i Wouldnt live my life by it

doesnt mean I view the bible in the same way everyone else does or that i believe its "innerrant" in whatever sense of the word you want to use

I'm glad you do see scripture as inspired and trustworthy.  However you view the Bible is between you and God, but again, the default setting for discussion at TM is 'no textual criticism' / 'respect for scripture', albeit with much room allowed for translation, understanding, interpretation, POV, etc., as earlier defined.  I didn't and don't use the term innerrant. 

Things are fine to move forward, many don't see or know some of the rules/expectations, so sometimes a reminder is helpful.

I've seen Christian sites that take out more than one book. From one I got the idea their main reason was removing stumbling blocks for their own doctrine.

Inspired by God....
A very clear and at the same time useless statement I think.
I'm sure those that compiled the books into a single Bible did the best they could. Did it take more than 15 minutes to decide what to put in the Bible? If they answer is yes then the danger is the Bible hasn't all the right books in it.
When things aren't very obvious or even very hard and needs a lot of thought and discussing mans logic is creeping in.
Just imagine a some very very well preserved book is found. Like the DSS but in mint condition. Clearly written. No signs of editting. Word usage finds perfectly in the timesetting etc etc. There is just one problem. The writer is 50x more clear about UR as all other books. Do you think the book would make it to the mainstream Bible?
Same question if it has lenghty chapthers in detail describing the torture in hell. That book my very well be the word of God. Perhaps even personally written down by God. But the weak link, mankind, decides what's real and what's not.

I know it's a gainst the rules of TM to slander the Bible; but judging history of man would you trust them to compile such a book.....?

[jabcat]

Well, my man WW, scripture itself says its every word is God-breathed, i.e., inspired.  I don't think you want to slander the Bible anyway.  Seems to me you have quite a bit of respect for it.

I had to make a decision awhile back shortly after God showed UR to me, and when so much in my world was being shaken.  That decision was to either take scripture for what it says it is, God's Word (yes I know, Jesus became the Word in flesh) or chase down a trail of man-made ideas, reasonings, and inventions.  I was tempted, and even began to do the latter.  God got a hold of me in conviction, and was very clear to me that I was to accept scripture as His written Word.  By the conviction of the Holy Spirit, it was clear that otherwise I was in disobedience and forsaking something very crucial.

I do understand the question of the canon being put together. I also believe little spots here and there have been tampered with and that can fairly clearly be shown, and I understand there are translational issues.  However,
God says He would preserve His Word to us; that His logos is "for ever settled in the heavens"; that all scripture is useful for our instruction; and that all scripture is inspired/God breathed.  I don't believe any of those statements are man's opinion, but can be traced back to the earliest manuscripts we have of God's Word to us.  As for me, I got'ta believe it.

Things to discuss, wonder about, explore?  You bet'cha.  If anyone wants to personally take issue with the reliability and/or authenticity of scripture, that's between them and God.  Personally, and by the grace of God, I hope to not go there, and I'm thankful that after all the mudslinging, food fighting, and scripture trashing that went on here in the past, Gary has agreed to put a stop to it and a respect for scripture is the default setting from which we operate on the DB.

No thought policing, people are free to think what they choose.  It's just (I know you know from having been a mod in the past and around here for awhile) there are certain places we just won't go here, and somebody's got'ta be a reminder, an assistant to Gary to keep things in line (and in my case, sometimes just a general pest.)

[NinjaWizards777]

there are certain places we just won't go here, and somebody's got'ta be a reminder, an assistant to Gary to keep things in line (and in my case, sometimes just a general pest.)

i enjoy these fourms and theyve been a great help...but someday I would either like to find(or make) a christian themed site where we COULD "go there" with discussions. this board is more open than most and im thankful for that...but it would really be nice to have(or again make, im in webdesign class right now) a site where christians are allowed to discuss anything and everything freely...no subject taboo.

ive discussed this with a few friends of mine over the past few days and they seem to think its a good idea at least. so...*shrug*

[WhiteWings]

Just read teh below without to much stress. It sounds kinda judging but is really meant to show nothing is sure.

God got a hold of me in conviction, and was very clear to me that I was to accept scripture as His written Word.

Good you got some extra feedback from above. Many don't. Did the HS also tell you what exact print of which Bible.
Lets put this into the extreme.
I buy the rights for the satanic bible. Replace a few names in it by names found in the Christian Bible. Then I change the cover. "Holy Bible of the Light" my version is called. I get it into print. Do you think HS was referring to that bible?
KJV1611? New KJV? Rotherham? Youngs? Or perhaps only the exact copies of what the original writers wrote down.
Those originals are all gone. So what to use.

God says He would preserve His Word to us

You are sure that was a guine verse? Or manmade? Wrongly translated?
God only has one word. That means that only one Bible version can be 100% correct. Just one change/mistake in forever/age and that version isn't Gods word anymore. (I see things very strickt)
I think we can all agree every version is different. So the HS should be more clear and state the ISBN number  :laughing7:

Personally I think that just doing the best you can goes a long way with God.
I thinjk there is even Biblical proof for it. The verses how people are judged that never heard of God for example.

[jabcat]

there are certain places we just won't go here, and somebody's got'ta be a reminder, an assistant to Gary to keep things in line (and in my case, sometimes just a general pest.)

i enjoy these fourms and theyve been a great help...but someday I would either like to find(or make) a christian themed site where we COULD "go there" with discussions. this board is more open than most and im thankful for that...but it would really be nice to have(or again make, im in webdesign class right now) a site where christians are allowed to discuss anything and everything freely...no subject taboo.

ive discussed this with a few friends of mine over the past few days and they seem to think its a good idea at least. so...*shrug*

I know, I was just thinking about this some more after posting to my friend WW.  If we talked about it further, I thought I might say to him (so I'll just go ahead and say it now) I do understand the desire to talk about some of the "undersides" of some of these issues...I have my own questions...so, you and I, or WW and me, etc., could probably discuss this stuff just fine by PM...no one would be trying to make the other see it their way, think together back and forth, etc...no one injured, no big problems...HOWEVER, out on the boards, in the past a person or two has gotten kind of crazy with it, saying some pretty wild things, stirring up trouble/discord, fighting/arguing would ensue, to the point it was no longer beneficial and probably actually hurtful to some, especially folks I call "little ones", those perhaps weak in the faith/faint of heart/easily injured...some even led astray, faith damaged, etc.

So, that's the problem, and it just got crazy and was not good.

[jabcat]

Just read teh below without to much stress. It sounds kinda judging but is really meant to show nothing is sure.

God got a hold of me in conviction, and was very clear to me that I was to accept scripture as His written Word.

Good you got some extra feedback from above. Many don't. Did the HS also tell you what exact print of which Bible.
Lets put this into the extreme.
I buy the rights for the satanic bible. Replace a few names in it by names found in the Christian Bible. Then I change the cover. "Holy Bible of the Light" my version is called. I get it into print. Do you think HS was referring to that bible?
KJV1611? New KJV? Rotherham? Youngs? Or perhaps only the exact copies of what the original writers wrote down.
Those originals are all gone. So what to use.

God says He would preserve His Word to us

You are sure that was a guine verse? Or manmade? Wrongly translated?
God only has one word. That means that only one Bible version can be 100% correct. Just one change/mistake in forever/age and that version isn't Gods word anymore. (I see things very strickt)
I think we can all agree every version is different. So the HS should be more clear and state the ISBN number  :laughing7:

Personally I think that just doing the best you can goes a long way with God.
I thinjk there is even Biblical proof for it. The verses how people are judged that never heard of God for example.

Nah, although I see what you're saying, I think looking at it that black and white/taking the example(s) to that extreme is to be missing the main points.  I'm no scholar here, but I'll tell you what I think, and what I think I know.

Something like 96-98% of the oldest manuscripts agree....that's hundreds, if not thousands of manuscripts.   There are a few, at least pretty obvious, tamperings.  We've obviously through the years messed up some things, mistranslated some things, missed the mark on many things.  But I understand God preserving His Word to be that He by far has given us all that is necessary and intended for us as far as scripture is concerned.  We have PLENTY of scripture by which to believe He is the Son of God, died for our sins, resurrected, etc., etc.  He has preserved more than enough (actually, just the right amount) for us.  If we believe God has a plan (and I do believe that), then even the mistranslations, the veiled eyes, the many not yet given faith to believe, is part of that plan.  Do I fully understand every detail about that?  Not even close.  But a plan, Him in control, Him directing man's steps, it all having a purpose to lead us exactly where He wants us, yes.

Not one version, not one translation.  His Words are woven through what we have.  He is revealing more and more of His plan for us, clearing up misconceptions WHERE and to WHOM He chooses and all according to HIS purpose, including more accurate translations and understandings.  The 'Satan' Bible?  I believe God has already shown too much of Himself for true, Spirit-filled believers to be fooled by that...the Spirit within leads, guides...maybe not everything all at once, but certainly enough to keep us from being taken out of His hand by the wiles of the adversary. 

Alright, maybe more later.  Thoughts?

[WhiteWings]

Not one version, not one translation.  His Words are woven through what we have. 

So don't look at the words but what's underneath the exact words?
Yes I think thats of importance. But if the words are to wrecked the under the surface message gets destroyed or to much destracted from.

[jabcat]

Yes, I think it could, however, I don't think that's the case, God hasn't allowed it;  based on the fact that such a high percentage of the manuscripts agree to such a high extent.  Really, I would say that's miraculous, those are miraculous numbers and facts.  IMO, His message is there, and God is revealing, unveiling more as we go.  And again, if we just had a very few basics, God, His Son, His death and resurrection for our sin and life; His Spirit, believe on Him, love Him and one another, wow, that's PLENTY to be saved and to live by.

[jabcat]

Wrt your thought of the under-the-surface message being destroyed, I should say, God hasn't allowed it to be totally covered (and certainly not destroyed) and seems to be shedding more and more light on His Word.  I certainly don't know this for sure, but even during the Dark Ages, I would guess there was that lonely individual here and there, that had enough of the Light to really know Jesus as his/her Savior...while the rest of the world was killing in the name of God and living in darkness and ignorance...here and there a light shining...I believe scripture teaches there has been and always will be (at least) a remnant...

[WhiteWings]

I know you view that differently than me from the whats worse atheist or ET poll. Free will  :laughing7:
If the Bible is an UR-lovestory and its turned into a ET-horrormovie nothing much of importance is retained.
Who cares how many animals Noach had on his ark, or how long the famine in Egypt lasted, if the main character of the Bible, God, is changed to some Hitler type of person? Dare I to say it.... even the fact that Jesus died for us is less relevant.
Just imagine I write a story about youre life. I get about everything right. But instead writing you have great care for your wife I write "Jabcat really loves his wife but if she doesn't bring his beer fast enough he knoecks her uncouncious"
And then you would say. Yep that's great. That's my life. Ok a little mistake about me hitting my wife but who cares I really have a black car, green chairs and brown hair; so the essence of my personality is correctly preserved.

I think it's called something like character assassination in English.

[jabcat]

I see  your point.  But what God said NEVER changed...all those years we were mistranslating and misunderstanding some very important things He had said...He had a purpose for that; Light/darkness, Light overcoming darkness and mankind eventually seeing and appreciating the difference.  And in those oldest manuscripts, those words we had that were the closest to the exact Words God breathed, they stayed the same...they sat there, waiting until the time God began to say, "look...here's what I really said...here's how I really am...let me now begin to bring you out of that darkness into my Light".  He never changed. His words never changed.  We've just been going through a process, that He intends, that will lead us right where He wants us.

So was the message REALLY destroyed, or did we just mangle some of it for awhile?  And even so, in the VERY WORST translations, I would guess it still says Jesus is God's Son, He died for your sins, believe on Him and you will be saved...love Him and love each other.  Admittedly, hell and forever are big deals...UR, God's ultimate plan is a big deal...but IMO, not understanding that is NOT the most important thing...Trusting Jesus as our Savior is, and I believe that's always been there...and even in those darkest ages, many called on His name, not fully understanding;  but still, just simply believing on Him for their salvation.  Looking to the cross.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I didn't know that about Jabcat.

[sven]

So was the message REALLY destroyed, or did we just mangle some of it for awhile?

bad translations contradict themselves, but the salvation of all is in all bibles.
the KJV e.g. can be interpreted in favour of endless suffering, annihilation and universalism though with contradictions but the contradiction is in the translation not in the bible.

personally, I think the latin vulgate is concerning the ages (aeons, saecula) way better than many translations since the reformation.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Every seeming contradiction I've ever come upon was resolved either once I looked into the Hebrew, or after He gave me more light, or both. Never found an exception to this rule. My  :2c: Blessings....