Everlasting Contempt.

[MacPherson]

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2 NIV).

This verse is often equated with an Old Testament reference to ET.

What's the UR debunking of that equation?

[martincisneros]

I'll be brief for a change :icon_jokercolor:  Just hoping to stir others to say something about this passage 'cause it's been 4hrs since the topic was started and nobody's said anything yet.  Some of that is from other topics getting all of the attention right now, but with the number of views that this topic has had so far, I'm inclined to think that some have yawned this off prematurely.  We don't have many that are active members of the boards right now that are all of that interested in apologetics.  One of those catch-22s of narrowing the focus of the boards in the way that we've had to.  You might try sending a quick PM to FineLinen for input on this as well.  A good book that answers all of the passages brought forth by the ETers is called The Universal Restoration by Elhanan Winchester.  Google books has it, and sometimes you can find a copy at http://www.abebooks.com that's somewhat cheap.  Anyway, too lazy to thumb through my copies to try to see where this one got answered.  I posted this answer to these boards a few months ago, to show you how lazy I'm being right now.  7:15pm where I'm at and I'm soooo sleepy already:


Daniel 12:2 says that many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake...

First of all, let's back up to the first verse where He's specifically talking about Israel and keep this in context that He's speaking of the judgment of Israel, which Paul says in Romans must end in salvation -- regardless of however many hoops they make the grace of God leap through as they go from one Deuteronomy 28 judgment to the next.

This passage in Daniel is also sorta like the passage in Genesis, which I believe is in the 12th chapter where God says I'll bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you, and in your seed all of the families of the earth will be blessed.  That last part indicating that the curse must be reversed if in the seed all of the families of the earth will be blessed.  Those who are cursed for cursing Abraham have their curse reversed through the Seed.  That's plain enough.

This in Daniel is the exact same way when you compare the 2nd and 3rd verses of Daniel 12, where the first verse tells us that He's talking about Israel; second verse gives you everlasting life and everlasting contempt, and the third verse says that those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.  This is the same many being made righteous who found the broad way to destruction in Jesus's teachings, who are consequently made righteous in Romans 5.  Presumably in the 3rd verse of Daniel 12 we have the Gentiles that have been grafted into Israel leading the many Jews who arose to shame and everlasting contempt past all of that into the place of righteousness through Jesus Christ.

[jabcat]

First of all, let's back up to the first verse where He's specifically talking about Israel and keep this in context that He's speaking of the judgment of Israel, which Paul says in Romans must end in salvation

:boogie: :banana: :trampoline:


Wouldn't the aonios issue apply here as well vs. eternal, even though it is primarily addressed to the Jews?  Since as you note Martin, as Paul says, ALL Israel will be saved.  So IMO, this is one of those we get Brian, that requires a little walk through context AND accurate translation.  But it can be done  :thumbsup:.

[sven]

this verse is interesting as it contrasts again the fate of the "blessed" and the "cursed" with the same word (olam), though olam doesn't mean endless I have my problems with this verse.

I only have an annihilationist interpretation:

http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/#E

it's interesting that it seems this Hebrew word for contempt here only occurs in Isaiah 66:24 where is spoken about dead bodies in the whole Old Testament

[CHB]

Hi,

I could be wrong on this but the way I see (Dan. 12:2) is, this is happening at the time of the tribulation because of what is said in (verse 1) about "a time of trouble".  I believe it is speaking of the 1000 year period. It says in (verse 2) that "many of them that sleep". It seems that not everyone will be resurrected at this time. It sounds like this is only referring to a period of time which is the 1000 year period.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2 NIV).

This verse is often equated with an Old Testament reference to ET.

What's the UR debunking of that equation?

Not sure of the equation you speaking of.     Olam is the concept of how things seem, with the knowledge that things end but the ending can be imperceptible.

[MacPherson]

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:
2. many . that sleep-"many from among the sleepers . these shall be unto everlasting life; but those (the rest of the sleepers who do not awake at this time) shall be unto shame" [tregelles]. Not the general resurrection, but that of those who share in the first resurrection; the rest of the dead being not to rise till the end of the thousand years (Re 20:3, 5, 6; compare 1Co 15:23; 1Th 4:16). Israel's national resurrection, and the first resurrection of the elect Church, are similarly connected with the Lord's coming forth out of His place to punish the earth in Isa 26:19, 21; 27:6. Compare Isa 25:6-9. The Jewish commentators support Tregelles. Auberlen thinks the sole purpose for which the resurrection is introduced in this verse is an incitement to faithful perseverance in the persecutions of Antiochus; and that there is no chronological connection between the time of trouble in Da 12:1 and the resurrection in Da 12:2; whence the phrase, "at that time," twice occurs in Da 12:1, but no fixing of time in Da 12:2, 3; 2 Maccabees 7:9, 14, 23, shows the fruit of this prophecy in animating the Maccabean mother and her sons to brave death, while confessing the resurrection in words like those here. Compare Heb 11:35. Newton's view that "many" means all, is not so probable; for Ro 5:15, 19, which he quotes, is not in point, since the Greek is "the many," that is, all, but there is no article in the Hebrew here. Here only in the Old Testament is "everlasting life" mentioned.

This it would seem, goes along with the age-during / age abiding concept regarding the millennial reign of Christ on earth. If "shame" is the better translation as opposed to "contempt", then it seems to indicate those who will experience regret, anguish, weeping and gnashing of teeth (especially Israel) at rejecting their Messiah. This brings me back to shame and regret equaling torment, rather than torment equaling an eternal furnace torture chamber.

[Paul Hazelwood]

When I am shown truly that something I have done constitutes a truth that I have hit a wall and must change, there certainly is plenty of gnashing of teeth and weeping going on.

But I doubt, very seriously, that as any one of us hits the trial to go through that process knew how long it would last.

[jabcat]

isn't torment basanismos, renered testing, as in testing metal for purity?  i think so...

[bobf]

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2 NIV).

What's the UR debunking of that equation?

My debunking is to give scriptural examples where owlam can not possibly mean "everlasting".

Here are two.  In these owlam is genrally trnanslated as "old" but for effect I changed it to "everlasting".  How does one restore and repair an everlasting waste?  Well, that's exactly what Jesus came to do according to these two passages.

• Isaiah 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the everlasting waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

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• Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the everlasting wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

In this example owlam is translated a meager "continue".  Kind of hard to be saved if you sin "everlastingly" (which I inserted for effect).

• Isaiah 64:5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness, Who remembers You in Your ways. You are indeed angry, for we have sinned-- In these ways we continue everlastingly; And we need to be saved.

This example actually does translate owlam as "for ever" but makes no sense.  Nothing can last "forever... until...." something else happens.

• Isaiah 32:14 Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; 15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.

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Another point is that the words Daniel spoke were "sealed" and "shut up" by God.  They were NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD until the time of the end (which is now) but even then only by the wise, not by the masses.  So it's not surprising to me that these words are understood and translated in the most merciless way possible.

• Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

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• Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

[sheila]

well,many here may have trouble accepting this, but my pov

is this.

  at the resurrection..the new creature inherits the kingdom

  when judged.Awakens to everlasting life.[sheep]

  the old man of sin is ashamed and expierences everlasting

  contempt/goat. Jesus spoke of seperating the people one from

  another at His coming.

   I think we all have a sheep and a old goat in the same vessel

   the old man and the new creature in Christ.

   It is said that the man of lawlessness would be done away

with at the breath of His coming...maybe it is this seperating

and judging by Him being presented.

   Also, an evil spirit asked Jesus if He had come to torment him

  before the time. So the evil spirit is speaking about that

certain fearful expectation of judgement coming.in my

estimation,for it is referred to as a time of torment