Finally leaving church after 8 months..

[IceDash]

I told the pastor I no longer going to his church anymore because I can't stand of "hell" anymore, because God himself knew what our outcome is and he also said that "every knee, every nation shall worhip and confess God is lord" in other word: the church is not lord or judge (this is why Jesus told everyone "not to judge but judge yourself" meaning that if you said "that guy lie too much!......oops, I do lie too!")

If God gave all his power to the hellfire preacher to judge the world, God will not get any saved soul in his heaven at all! It will be emtpy! Because they believe it justice and fair!


I called it "cold-heart carnal mind preachers who preach us to love our enemies! What a hyprocrites!"

So I finally quit the church but follow God with my heart and I still read the bible because I love him, and my wife woke me and told me that the pastor send me a long e-mail saying "hell is real"

know what i did? I told my wife "delete the e-mail please" and went back to sleep, my wife did delete it

I am tired of church, I want God to judge me, not the church, I am more afraid of church than their's God's wrath

[jabcat]

 :goodpost:  I still go on Sunday mornings with my wife ID, but it's driving me up the wall.  The last 2 Sundays were "hell" sermons, mixing in the parable of the rich man to "prove" hell and conscious torment immediately following death...he said there's an immediate judgment, but then some kind of other judgment later.  I really think I'm a) not supposed to be there but too chicken to quit for my wife and son's sake (although might be better for them if I did and took a stand), or b) God is teaching me patience, love, and to not judge others too harshly by my continuing to be exposed to the orthodox mess.

Anyway, enjoyed your post, especially that you just went back to sleep LOL.

[CHB]

Hi,

I have been going to a Baptist Church that is about a 1/4 mile from where I live. I sing there every Sunday. Now don't ask me how I got involved with this. Like jabcat, I thought maybe God was teaching me patience, compassion, love for those who believe different from me, I don't know. Sometimes I hate going there, especially when the hell doctrine comes up, sometimes I actually enjoy going there. Now I feel trapped. The pastor is a childhood friend of mine and he has actually ask me to do Bible study a couple of times. I explained that I believed that everybody would be saved, of course he told me I needed to forget all of that because that was denying Christ. I told him if I changed my mind I would really be denying Christ. He said he hoped I wouldn't stop coming.

Anyway, I feel God has me there for some reason but I wish he would give me the guts to leave. jabcat, am I just a chicken or does God have something in mind that I am not aware of? I do get to say things once in a while but I try not to offend any one. I sing songs that I write which are usually Universal oriented.

CHB
 

[jabcat]

Charlotte, I think that's a real bind, and I think down deep I really know God's will and I'm not being totally obedient.  I was in the praise band until God led me to leave the denomination, then I was no longer welcome to participate.  Anyway, here's what I think...I really think God doesn't want me there at all anymore, participating in the things they say about Him and the division of denominationalism.  However, my leaving the denomination was a blow to my wife (tears, "losing something we've shared", etc.).  So as a sort of compromise, I've continued to go with her.  I really think I am doing just that though, compromising...which really, instead of helping, may be hindering her's and my son's growth in the long run.

THEN...I begin to think God is still teaching me those things, patience, not judging/being too critical, etc., there is some fellowship there ... (did you ever realize what you get when you leave the 's' out of fellowship?)  Anyway, so I'm afraid I can't tell you, because I'm in that bind myself.  Maybe 60% of me thinks I'm not supposed to be there, 40% says "it's for my family and God is working in my life through it".  To me, this brings up a subject that I think is difficult sometimes, REALLY knowing, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the PERFECT will of God is.  Perhaps I'm (and you) in His good and acceptable will by believing on Him, loving others while I'm there, singing and worshipping Him etc., but how about his perfect will?  To what extent does "come out of her My people" entail?  Refusing to participate in certain things (denominationalism, hell teaching,etc.) or not darkening the doorway?  Maybe others can have input on this that is helpful...I'm afraid, like many things, the opinions are all over the spectrum.

God's blessing, James.

[jabcat]

Oh, and I believe it could be that it's s/w different, for different people, at different times...maybe God has a purpose for one in a place, where the other is supposed to be out of there  :dontknow:.

[reFORMer]

I'm starting to get involved with a church that has some life in it.  The "Pastor" has known the Lord for 3 years.  Several recently new born of the Spirit as well as the Pastor are quite hungry for the word.  In the last month I got home at 2:30 and 1:30 am on a couple of friday nights.  We were discussing things in Scripture.  I can't take too much of it.  I feel I'm walking a tightrope of dubious strength.  It's like I'm suffering from psychic vampirism.  It would be so easy to go too far and say something beyond what they can accept and lose the opportunity to make a real difference in a number of people's lives.  As it is I put my head on the chopping block repeatedly, saying things some of which have gotten me thrown out of churches and labeled a heretic, a deceiver, a rebel or anarchist, even a demoniac.  After being there I have to just be laid up, recouperating the next day.  I have to miss some meetings.  It takes too big a toll on me, which is hard for them to accept, because they need a piano player and I can do it quite well.  I really suffer physical pain from their doctrines and practices.  Then I think maybe I'm a self-righteous arrogant whitewashed wall...aye-yi-yi, oy-vey, ufta, and whew!

[jabcat]

I know...it really is an emotionally/spiritually painful thing...the tightrope, torn between participating and what to reject...then the whole "maybe I'm being too judgmental, having a critical spirit"...well, I guess I'm not the only one then...

[IceDash]

remember guys, God is not respecter of person. God do not love me more than hitler just because of it, he created us all to be the same, we just differant's one own's purpose

[WhiteWings]

he said there's an immediate judgment, but then some kind of other judgment later.

That would make the White Throne judgement a joke.
Adam and Eve are already burning thousands of years and then Jesus say: "Suprise I don't like you!"

[sparrow]

Oh, and I believe it could be that it's s/w different, for different people, at different times...maybe God has a purpose for one in a place, where the other is supposed to be out of there  :dontknow:.

yup.

[jabcat]

he said there's an immediate judgment, but then some kind of other judgment later.

That would make the White Throne judgement a joke.
Adam and Eve are already burning thousands of years and then Jesus say: "Suprise I don't like you!"

yeah, he said the first judgment is of the soul(?) so people can get on to heaven or hell, then there's another judgment later to seal the absolute final destiny, I guess...I don't get it...what would be the point?

[WhiteWings]

That can mean:

a] God needs a second judgement because He possibly made a mistake at the first judgement.
b] All start in, let's call it, purgatory. Then at judgement some goto heaven some stay in the fire.

[reFORMer]

Obviously there can be no "justice" in infinite neverending torture for a finite man; but, why should there be any "judgement" involved either?  It can't possibly matter to the victim.

[jabcat]

Obviously there can be no "justice" in infinite neverending torture for a finite man; but, why should there be any "judgement" involved either?  It can't possibly matter to the victim.

Sorry James, being dense here...what do you mean about the judgment piece?  Truly interested...

[WhiteWings]

yeah, he said the first judgment is of the soul(?) so people can get on to heaven or hell, then there's another judgment later to seal the absolute final destiny, I guess...I don't get it...what would be the point?

I want to add to my message above because there seem to be 2 judgements.

Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Here the dead are split into 2 groups. The group that get resurrected and the group that stays dead another 1000 years.

Revelation 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This verse takes place after the 1000 years plus an unknown 'short time' that satan is released from his prison.
That's another judgement.

Revelation 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

yeah, he said the first judgment is of the soul

The above verses speak of 2 judgements. One clearly speaks of works. So whats the other about....?

Perhaps your pastor is right. For the wrong reason :laughing7:
Just a thought:
The 1st resurrection is based on the judgement of the soul. -> 100% of humanity is judged.
The 2nd resurrection and immediately following White Throne judgement is about works. -> 100% of humanity is judged.

[WhiteWings]

Obviously there can be no "justice" in infinite neverending torture for a finite man; but, why should there be any "judgement" involved either?  It can't possibly matter to the victim.

Well..... according to some ETs Jesus detemins the intensity of the torture. The temperature of the flames.

[WhiteWings]

I told the pastor I no longer going to his church anymore because I can't stand of "hell" anymore,

Forgot to congrat the topic starter  :sigh:
I think you made a good choice because Ice doesn't trive in a hot enviorment   :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

yeah, I'm not sure about the judgments...i'll have to look more at it, also wonder where Israel fits in there...one clarification though...he's a nice guy, but he's not my pastor  :happy3:.

[IceDash]

You know what I want to share something for you guys about how I feel

When my ex-pastor said in the e-mail that hell is real and it's justice and fair, I feel sorry for him because he seem doesn't get it at all because when Jesus died on the cross and telling his apostles to preach other nation about his gospels (the good news)

Now let me get this straight, did the indian who live in north american (where no one discover North america) get the gospel from the apostle? is it too late for them? Are they automated going to hell because they never saw Jesus's death at that time? I feel sorry for any hellfire preacher because it's doesn't make sense when God knew about indian people who have no knowledge of God or Jesus, and God created and knew them for what? nothing? please, give me a break!

And another thing, preacher still don't get it about moses and his laws, he never once said "If you don't follow this law, you will be burn forever in hell!" NOT ONCE!

hell show up after Jesus death?

is that weird? no....because it's didn't happen, but I know all preacher and pastor will said this common and popular context from the bible: "Yeah but what about the everlasting lake of fire, oh yeah God cast satan and his follower to hell and no one can escape hell!"

Now it's funny........they said that no one can escape hell, how come satan and his follower can?


You know what i was angry about? My ex-pastor said that "Did you know that every 1 second, each person per second going to hell, yep, alot people don't accept Jesus will be going to hell"


didn't Jesus said "the gate of hell will not prevail it?" and Jesus have the key of death and hades?


This is why I am tired of going to church because they treat God as like a abusing father,

would you love a father who abuse you and molest you?

I don't think so....and we didn't choose to go to hell, If before I was born and God show me hell, i would said "no way!"

no one choose hell over god, stupid....

[IceDash]

and one more thing:

I know pastor or hellfire preacher love to said this:

"If you don't think hell is real, then why Jesus said it is better for that man that he was never been born, sound to me that hell is serious and death is serious"


If that true, then why God made judas anyway?!? If God knew he shouldn't be born, he would do it out of mercy and love but yet he let him be born?


I still trying to figure it out why Jesus said that, tranlation mistake or what?

[WhiteWings]

What about the scripture that says, it would have been better for Judas if he had not been born?

Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.

If the doctrine of hell were true, then it would be better for most people not to have been born because traditional Christianity believes that the overwhelming majority of people end up in hell. If this were the case, then all women should immediately stop having children, because chances are their children would end up in a hell of endless torment.
The meaning in the verse above is that it would have been better for Judas not to be born to betray Jesus, because Judas will have to go through God's Lake of Fire judgement before he can be reconciled to God.
Let us further understand why Jesus says that it would have been better for Judas not to be born to betray Him.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 13:18 I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me'.

These verses refer to Judas. It was written in the Old Testament that Judas would betray Jesus. (Psalm 41:9) It may be hard for us to understand that Judas was chosen right from the foundation of the world to betray Jesus. Think about it, if Judas did not betray Jesus, then we would not have a Saviour. Judas understood the way of Righteousness, but he then rejected it.

2 Peter 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The Bible says that it would have been better for Judas and many other people not to have known the way of Righteousness, than having known it, to then turn away from it. Judas and all sons of perdition (ungodly men) will face the Lake of Fire judgement, before they can be reconciled to God.

[WhiteWings]

Now let me get this straight, did the indian who live in north american (where no one discover North america) get the gospel from the apostle? is it too late for them? Are they automated going to hell because they never saw Jesus's death at that time?

2 Peter 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, having known it, to turn back from the holy commandment that had been delivered to them.


That verse states that it's better to never heard about the Bible than turn away from It.

[CHB]

hell show up after Jesus death?

IceDash, I really liked what you said here.  :thumbsup:


WhiteWings,

The preacher I was talking about in my other post said this about Judas and my mouth dropped open. He said "Judas was brought back from hell to betray Jesus". Can you imagine this?  :laughing7: If that was true the flames didn't seem to hurt him none and he didn't learn a thing while he was there either.  :bigGrin:

Jabcat,

What you say sounds exactly the way I feel about the whole Church thing. The only thing that keeps me sane about going there is, I know that God hasn't opened their eyes and I use to be in the same situation they are now. I feel really burdened for them and pray for them all the time. I cringe every time I hear the preacher say something that takes glory away from God. Sometimes, he actually preaches a good sermon believe it or not.

I sort of feel like you do, that God put me there to learn tolerance, compassion, patience, instead of them learning from me. This verse also keeps comimg to mind. "my words shall not return to me void, but it will accomplish what I sent it for".  Probably not the exact words but to me this means if we say some truth to someone won't God use it in his own time?  Maybe God will use something we say to spark a fire in somebody someday.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

WhiteWings,

The preacher I was talking about in my other post said this about Judas and my mouth dropped open. He said "Judas was brought back from hell to betray Jesus". Can you imagine this?  :laughing7: If that was true the flames didn't seem to hurt him none and he didn't learn a thing while he was there either.  :bigGrin:

Exactly. If Judas was in Hell before I think he would be the best follower of Jesus that you can imagine.

But lets assume the preacher is right.
- Judas was brought back from hell. -> I would like to see a verse stating that.
- Only Father has such powers.
- Then Judas did the right thing because he was under strickt orders. Or should he have disobeyed again?

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/14236/did-jesus-ask-judas-to-betray-him

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Let's look at it another way......

Two lives: soulish (outer court) and spiritual (inner court)

Two deaths: soulish (dying to self) and spiritual (laying down inner court realm of Christ 
                  as represented by gifts, titles, ect.)

Two resurrections: soulish (passing from death into life of Christ) and spiritual (passing
                           from life of Christ only, to having the Son AND the Father manifesting)

Two veils: representing rending soul/flesh and spirit/Christ (God was IN Christ reconciling
               all men unto Him, rending of this veil brings the Father in manifestation)

Two judgments: of the soul and Spirit (soul = purgatory-type judgment, whatever is not
                        overcome thru Christ while still in the body; Spirit = Father sees Christ)

Two altars: for soul (mind, will, emotions and desires) and for Spirit (Christ ascends,
                 those perfected souls IN HIM ascend also, as smoke of altar of incense rises)

Two baptisms: for dealing with the soul (water symbolic of dying to self), and Spirit
                     (for the laying down of our "crowns" at His feet, ie. turning over Kingdom
                     to the Father)

A thousand years is representative of the day of the Lord, ie. His Christ perfected. Any part of us that has not overcome thru Christ while still in the body, lives (or has Christ life) not again until this "1000" year mark that is Christ is fulfilled thru the fire of the living God purging us to bring forth more fruit (likeness of Christ).

We have His image while we are still in this body (glory terrestrial, ie. moon reflecting), but we don't have His likeness (glory celestial, glory of the "Sun") until we are completely consumed by Him, ie. daystar ("Sun") rising in our hearts and then that which is within consumes us. Then corruption or that which is corruptible is swallowed up of that which is not corruptible. Blessings....