Daniels' dream and end times

[Sarah]

Most of it all happened in what is called the 400 years of silence . .which is pretty much the timeframe between Malachi and Matthew.  That's all the natural plain of things.  The book is still very much as relevant as any other book, but it needs to be read in the same plain as all the other books of Script as well . . .spiritually rather than naturally.

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

2God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

3Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

5There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

6Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

--Psalm 53





[Every one] "of them is gone back"

H5472
סוּג
sûg
soog
A primitive root; properly to flinch, that is, (by implication) to go back, literally (to retreat) or figuratively (to apostatize): - backslider, drive, go back, turn (away, back).




16And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

17And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

--Gen 19

[Molly]

I fully believe that Daniel's prophetic vision that was sealed was specifically for the Jews . .the 70 weeks makes that very clear.  I believe that the seal was broken and the book was not only opened, but fulfilled by Christ through the work of the cross . . .and as far as this idol of Daniel 2 . . .that again, was not only world leaders . .but those who ruled over Israel . .it was a message "to" Israel, "about" Israel's demise.  And the 70 weeks set aside specifically for the purpose of wooing Israel back . . .ended in the book of Acts with the first martyr . . .it's where Jesus was seen "standing".  It was closing the chapter on sending the gospel solely to the Jews . . .and turning to the Gentiles . ..Paul explains this on several occasions in his ministry.

I do agree that parts of Daniel have already been fulfilled in 70ad. 


But, I still see Daniel 2 as not yet being fulfilled, and whatever details might go along with that, through a simple reading of the outcome.

34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

--Daniel 2



There are two conditions that have to be met here--one is that the fourth and last empire is totally gone--there is nothing left of it.  The second is that the mountain of God is filling the whole earth.  I do not see where either of those conditions have been met.

[Nathan]

I fully believe that Daniel's prophetic vision that was sealed was specifically for the Jews . .the 70 weeks makes that very clear.  I believe that the seal was broken and the book was not only opened, but fulfilled by Christ through the work of the cross . . .and as far as this idol of Daniel 2 . . .that again, was not only world leaders . .but those who ruled over Israel . .it was a message "to" Israel, "about" Israel's demise.  And the 70 weeks set aside specifically for the purpose of wooing Israel back . . .ended in the book of Acts with the first martyr . . .it's where Jesus was seen "standing".  It was closing the chapter on sending the gospel solely to the Jews . . .and turning to the Gentiles . ..Paul explains this on several occasions in his ministry.

I do agree that parts of Daniel have already been fulfilled in 70ad. 


But, I still see Daniel 2 as not yet being fulfilled, and whatever details might go along with that, through a simple reading of the outcome.

34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

--Daniel 2



There are two conditions that have to be met here--one is that the fourth and last empire is totally gone--there is nothing left of it.  The second is that the mountain of God is filling the whole earth.  I do not see where either of those conditions have been met.

I read this to be referring to Israel as a nation . . .every piece of that idol was a people that rose up to control Israel  . . . they were all pertaining to who would rule over the Jews . . .and in the end, a stone not cut by human hands would come in and demolish them . . .and the scattering or "the wind carried them away that no place was found for them" was again 70 A.D. when Israel lost their status as a nation . . .they were scattered abroad no longer having a land of their own.

[claypot]

Nathan, you wrote....

UR is not "the" truth . . it's just a strand of it.

I agree of course. Knowing this truth within is just a step to greater things.

Martin, you wrote.....

As far as the Apostle John, there's always been rumors ever since Jesus said to Peter "if I want him to remain until I come, what's that to you?"  But many are quick to quote St. Paul as having said that Jesus alone has immortality.  I personally won't touch that one with a ten-foot pole.

I would take this on in one sense. I see a kind of natural intimacy within my being that, even in my rebellious state, seemed to always be there. This essence I look as a 'John' essence within my very being. The 'Peter' manifestation within me seems to be my 'godly' stubborness, my 'foot in mouth' approach to growing in Christ essence.

This 'John' essence lives on and on while this Peter essence within me goes from a Satan to a Rock reality.

cp

[Akira Takahashi]

So, are we coming up on the End Times?

[peacemaker]

"Every Journey begins with a first step, and every step is it's own journey."

We continue to move forward in time with every step; until there is no time!

peacemaker

[noname]

i think it is imporatnt to note that Daniel's vision pertained to Israel...and NOT the Jews (Judah) alone...
when Daniel was in babylon, his brothers (10 tribes of Israel excluding Judah, Benjamin and Levi) have already been taken away to assyria and later on assimilated with the rest of the "gentiles"...so, to make a long story short, daniel's vision is addressed to ALL people of the earth because we all have Israel in us

secondly, what is important about the vision is that ALL empires (ie the image) would fall in ONE day...and that the stone which crushed the image would grow until it is a mountain (this exact metaphor is used later on in the Bible to describe the Kingdom of God)

thirdly, the Bible talks about "Mystery Babylon" which would control the world in the end times...babylon was the originator of the monetory usary system we all are slaves of today...the very same system God told Israel to steer clear from, as it only makes the rich richer and poor poorer...we can today see the very evidence of this system collapsing on itself with people losing their houses but big corporations getting massive bailouts to keep their greedy lifestyles going...the "slaves" (ie taxpayers) have to sweat blood and tears so that "the masters" can live their lives in luxury...

this system will not be broken until the people repent...
when the twin towers fell, the prayer was: "God bless America"
God will surely do this, but not the way man thinks...He will bless America and the world "...by turning every one of you from your wicked ways" (Acts 3:26, NASB).

[Molly]

I read this to be referring to Israel as a nation . . .every piece of that idol was a people that rose up to control Israel  . . . they were all pertaining to who would rule over the Jews . . .and in the end, a stone not cut by human hands would come in and demolish them . . .and the scattering or "the wind carried them away that no place was found for them" was again 70 A.D. when Israel lost their status as a nation . . .they were scattered abroad no longer having a land of their own.

If Daniel 2 were referring to Israel as a nation in 70 A.D., then there is no more man made system ruling over the world (the terrible form), which we know is not true.  And, the mountain of God would be filling the whole world, with all vestiges of that terrible man-made system having been crushed to chaff and blown away, which we also know is not true.

We are still suffering under this terrible man made system to this day.

The stone not cut by human hands is going to be the lively stones of the temple of God, cut in the quarry, erected in silence,  the corporate Christ.  This stone is what will smash the feet of clay.


1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

[Zeek]

I read this to be referring to Israel as a nation . . .every piece of that idol was a people that rose up to control Israel  . . . they were all pertaining to who would rule over the Jews . . .and in the end, a stone not cut by human hands would come in and demolish them . . .and the scattering or "the wind carried them away that no place was found for them" was again 70 A.D. when Israel lost their status as a nation . . .they were scattered abroad no longer having a land of their own.

If Daniel 2 were referring to Israel as a nation in 70 A.D., then there is no more man made system ruling over the world (the terrible form), which we know is not true.  And, the mountain of God would be filling the whole world, with all vestiges of that terrible man-made system having been crushed to chaff and blown away, which we also know is not true.

We are still suffering under this terrible man made system to this day.

The stone not cut by human hands is going to be the lively stones of the temple of God, cut in the quarry, erected in silence,  the corporate Christ.  This stone is what will smash the feet of clay.


1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

the "system" was a two way street was it not, given authority by God through covenant.
God demonstrated that this no longer is in effect.   Man  may still choose to live under a man made system, but there is no agreement/promise by God re: this.  All has been fulfilled.  imo, we are in the process of reallizing our status with God. 
 

[Molly]

Man  may still choose to live under a man made system, but there is no agreement/promise by God re: this.  All has been fulfilled.  imo, we are in the process of reallizing our status with God.

Yes, I could see that.  We must realize our status with God for the stone to crush the feet of clay and for the mountain to fill the whole world.  But, we can see, in these last days, that the system is attempting to exert ever tighter and tighter control over a people (world wide) that are becoming freer and freer [spiritually].  Just like the abusive husband who clamps down more and more on the wife who is realizing she has options to being abused, --the most dangerous time for her is when she leaves.

I could see that as describing where we are today.

[Nathan]

It's a tough call when we try to measure our current state of the world along with our interpretation of spiritual prophecies.  For me, I sense there is a strong trumpet blasting in the heavenlies to the bride with a message of great importance to not look to the natural events unfolding, but listen for and respond to the voice "within" all of us.  God is not speaking to the natural reasoning men, but to his temple . . .that's the conduit through which he speaks to us.  And by temple I don't mean denomination or a church setting . . .I mean "we" are the temple . . .he's speaking through those who've allowed his order to come into them and have become engaged in the activities that caused the temple to flourish . .the only difference is . . ."they" manifested their activities in the flesh (old covenant people following Moses' instructions of sacrifice) whereas "we" manifest the activity "within" us. 

Those who walk according to their flesh, will be decieved by the events taking place in the flesh.  Those who are walking in the spirit will not be swayed by the activities happening in the flesh.  One of the last things spoken to the crowd that saw Jesus ascend was "Why are you standing and staring?"  And it seems that many are still doing that now . . .rather than planting the seed they have in them, they're spending all of their time standing and staring at the events happening around them and they're being distracted and decieved in their thinking that "this is that" when instead, the church should be "doing" what God has been preparing her to do . . .planting seeds of life and setting others free through relationship and let the religious worry about their timetables and charts not fitting Scripture.

[reFORMer]

I think I may have gotten this link on tentmaker forum or put it here in the past.  (You may feel differently about Europe if you go and read "Last Days Overview.") I'm going to be very very brief. This is because it is better explained, though a quick read at CMW.  Please read both pages.  Here's the link:

http://www.christianmedianetwork.com/lastdays.html

Daniel 2 has the image with the head of gold vision. I believe those kingdoms came and went and that part of the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus in His coming to be crucified and raised from the dead 2,000 years ago, though the influence of it is still traceable in the world today. Jesus was, "The stone cut out without hands which smote the image upon his feet..." which was the Roman Empire (Dan 2:34,) and this stone, "...became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." (Dan 2:35) We're still experiencing this mountain filling up the whole earth, with some setbacks the last couple of hundreds of years.

An angel tells Daniel that "these great beasts which are four are four kings which shall rise out of the earth." Racial dispensationalism makes the 4 beasts of Daniel 7 to be a parallel of the 4 kingdoms referred to in the image of Daniel 2. The decisive thing is the placement of Israel in these two sets of kingdoms. The image had to do with the destruction of Israel and the 4 beasts with it's restoration.

The 1st beast was a like a lion that had the wings of an eagle (United Kingdom the 2nd beast was a bear described as having "three ribs in the mouth of it" (Soviet Union and the 3rd beast was a leopard or panther with 4 heads (Hitler's Germany) and the fourth beast was described as "...dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth...and it had ten horns.".

Between Hitler's death in 1945 and the formation of the state of Israel in 1948 is when the fourth beast would have to be born to keep true to the parallels with the image with the head of gold. The United Nations is the only posibility. It takes a while for it to mature, which is part of what the 10 horns signify. Horns also represent power.

This is not brought out by the author James Lloyd; but, I think the horns may signify members states having nuclear weapons, the supreme "brute force" possessed by nations today.

These two visions are most significant because they pertain to the manifestation of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, and the salvation history of the entire human race.